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Author Topic: Lancia and the Great Divide  (Read 2183 times)
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Richard Fridd
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« on: 08 October, 2014, 09:04:39 AM »

http://www.velocetoday.com/lancia-and-the-great-divide/


* Lancia-Appia-Z-19781.jpg (121.64 KB, 570x470 - viewed 260 times.)
« Last Edit: 09 October, 2014, 07:24:16 AM by Richard Fridd » Logged

Richard Nevison Fridd
DavidLaver
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« Reply #1 on: 08 October, 2014, 10:26:04 PM »


On the Flavia how fair is this:

"Fessia’s Flavia was a totally different story, with no links to the distant or near past, it was Fessia’s engineering dream come true since his days at CEMSA (see below) but was also ponderous, heavy, and drove nothing like earlier Lancias. The badge still said Lancia, but one wondered if the same language was being used. The 1800 cc flat four was no masterpiece, and the front drive uncomfortable. That is not to say it was not a good car; it was, in fact a fine car, but was it a Lancia?"

What I remind myself is that that's also what was said of Appias and Aurelias after Aprilias and Augustas.  I tell myself there's a compromise to be made with a Flavia for the refinement and ability to cruise all day at motorway speeds, perhaps also the emphasis on safety.

Brian?

David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
Justin McArdle
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Fulvia Berlina 2C


« Reply #2 on: 09 October, 2014, 07:54:00 AM »

I too thought that the description of the Flavia was somewhat harsh - especially questioning its Lancia pedigree.
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Lancia 2000 HF Coupe
Fulvia Berlina 2C
GG
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B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored


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« Reply #3 on: 09 October, 2014, 02:23:19 PM »

I agree, its too harsh a comment.

Yes, the transition from Jano to Fessia was difficult, and yes, the Flavia with FWD and the flat four engine was a radical shift. But it was a highly refined car, and was well regarded when introduced. One could argue that the new ideas of the Flavia were yet another take on Lancia's ability to take a new position, one previously not considered. It was oriented more to high speed cruising and was not as nimble as its predecessors, but the model has a charm of its own. And the flat four is quite smooth.
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B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored
DavidLaver
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« Reply #4 on: 09 October, 2014, 03:20:54 PM »


Nimble enough that (I thought...) they won a rally with it. 

I expect it was the high speed stability that got 3rd on the grid for the 1964 Spa 24 hours.

Rally wins: I thought it was only the Coupe Des Alpes in 1965...  Trying to find that date I came across the 1966 Rally of the Flowers as another win.  To complicate things further another link suggesting the '65 win was just the touring class.

David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
chriswgawne
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« Reply #5 on: 09 October, 2014, 04:01:18 PM »

I have never fully understood what winning those events back in the 50's and 60' really indicated about the car. Not for one minute am I underestimating the commitment amnd skill of the drivers but some stramge vehicles won quite large events way back then.
For example, in my reading up on Flaminias last night (don't ask why), I discovered that Lancia started to dip its toe in competition again in 1959 and a team of Flaminia BERLINAS won the Team Trophy in the 1959 American International Rally. No idea what the competition or event was like but it certainly sounds impressive.
(Then in the 60's Flaminia Sports and Coupes went on to win their class in major European road races and circuit races such as the Targa Florio and Brands Hatch 6 hours.)
Chris
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Chris Gawne
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DavidLaver
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« Reply #6 on: 09 October, 2014, 04:56:32 PM »


Spa I was impressed by.  Reading the rest of the Alpine rally entry anyone spending the kind of money Lancia were asking would rather hope that they did win.

"The 7 year twitch" is a really good read on international rallying a little before that era.

http://winktimber.com/vintagerally/books/rallybooks.htm

Anyone recommend a good first person (English language please!!!) account of those times?

Looking down the list "Tricks of the rally game" I recognise I think from as a kid... I wonder if I can find that one. 

David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
stanley sweet
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« Reply #7 on: 09 October, 2014, 06:06:39 PM »

I bought an old copy of Rallying to Monte Carlo by Mike Couper at Silverstone many years ago. Still available quite easily I think on ebay. Just another world. If you want to rally in a strange vehicle he used Bentleys. In fairness though, he was only interested in winning the Concours trophy at the end. It's a great read if you like the 50's rallying era.
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1971 Fulvia 1.3S 'Leggera'  1999 Lancia Lybra 1.9JTD LX SW
DavidLaver
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« Reply #8 on: 10 October, 2014, 12:00:32 PM »

Familiar Lancia details I liked on the Flavia:

- plunger on the brake reservoir
- thermostatic shutters on the radiator
- same fuel filler cap as the Aurelia (and am sure so many others)
- Aurelia style valve gear (not sure its a good thing, but familiar)

Very "Lancia" touches:

- flush fitting boot plunger
- lever to limit steering lock with snow chains
- metal fuel filler pipe with a big bronze nut to the tank

Favourites shared with the S1 Fulvia

- big wood rim wheel
- horn and light flasher centre push
- "clock pendulum" gear lever with the tight "left-right" and long "up-down" movement

To what extent do others think their De Carbon dampers are THE key to the handling?  I also like the idea that the leaf springs give a rising rate for all it requires old world skills to reset and to build up.

http://www.viva-lancia.com/specials/de-carbon/de-carbon.htm

Advantages over an Aurelia (the flip side is its the things that can grate/worry on an Aurelia...)

- synchro first gear
- improved visibility
- disk brakes (for all the Flavia booster is a scary item - I've bought the new one already)
- seat belts
- safer steering column
- direct gear change
- "grown up" handling over the perhaps a little too easy over-steer of the Aurelia, at least with an SIII
- better ventilation
- washers, two speed wipers, heated rear screen (mods I made to my Aurelia)

What I'd give the Aurelia is a great sense of security inside that enveloping seam welded shell. The SOLID Aurelia brake peddle is also a great feature, up to the point they fade to near nothing...  Its a cosy place, but a b*gger to park and tricky in traffic, even with a pair of door mirrors.  The Aurelia also has a fabulous exhaust note, and its a lovely comforting burble at tickover "like t a mountain stream" as much as when its wound up.

I like, perhaps "admire" is a better word, the layout of both. The Aurelia transaxle and inboard brakes for low unsprung weight and high polar moment.  The Flamina flat four for such a low centre of gravity and "weight in the head of the arrow".

Both seat five, both have a huge boot.  An SIII B20 and Flavia Sport have a very similar top speed, the Flavia getting there on aerodynamics and less power.
 
David
« Last Edit: 10 October, 2014, 12:02:49 PM by DavidLaver » Logged

David Laver, Lewisham.
JohnMillham
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« Reply #9 on: 10 October, 2014, 04:07:02 PM »

The Flavia was a very comfortable car for driver and passengers. In its day, only the DS or ID Citroens could compare, particularly on a rough surface. I drove Kim Brownbill's early version at the Castlemaine Rally and it was most enjoyable, if a bit slower than his B20. Here's a photo of them both in a typical Australian scene.
Regards, John


* B20andFlavia.jpg (1395.06 KB, 3527x2245 - viewed 221 times.)
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DavidLaver
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« Reply #10 on: 10 October, 2014, 05:09:14 PM »


Ride quality in the Aurelia isn't its strongest point...  I can half remember an article on the Flavia family, perhaps it was a period road test, saying how phenomenal the early Flavia was over the pave and other test track tortures and that some of that had been compromised for flatter cornering in later variants.

Something they both share is stainless steel trim.  The Flavia lacks the alloy bits the early Aurelia had, a cross over from the  Aprilia era.  It might be tempting to cast some bits in alloy rather than rechrome...

David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
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