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Author Topic: 1600 vs 1300 : discuss  (Read 5008 times)
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DavidLaver
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« on: 22 August, 2013, 09:48:18 PM »


Not for me but for a friend. 

I'd argue the difference isn't all that.

Tell me I'm wrong and a 1600 is worth seeking out - because...

David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
fay66
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« Reply #1 on: 22 August, 2013, 11:18:47 PM »


Not for me but for a friend. 

I'd argue the difference isn't all that.

Tell me I'm wrong and a 1600 is worth seeking out - because...

David

Horses for courses, 1300's are great fun, very capable and more than capable of keeping up with modern traffic, and not doubt 1600's are even better, but the difference in what you'll have to pay for a good one of each is considerable, so it's pay your money and take your choice.

Brian
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Own 1966 Fulvia 2C Berlina since 1997, back on road 11-1999.Known as "Fay"
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Richard Fridd
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« Reply #2 on: 23 August, 2013, 06:12:28 AM »

There is a better chance of finding s/h spares for the 1300. The only 1600 I have driven is the well known ex HSCC Sport, which around Castle Coombe Circuit, had 'a bit more of everything'. My own Zagato JLG 65K had a 1298 in standard tune, but went well due to being a home prepared light weight. Also my coupe had a 1298cc engine albeit with those special camshafts available at the time, and slightly higher CR from a skimmed head, although that may have been negated by the pockets in the piston crowns. That went OK too.(When it wasn't rolling over)


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« Last Edit: 23 August, 2013, 06:40:43 AM by Richard Fridd » Logged

Richard Nevison Fridd
lancialulu
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« Reply #3 on: 23 August, 2013, 07:29:34 AM »

Had both, and still got the 1600 (well 2 actually  Wink).

Sarah still says I sold the most delightful 1300 ever, but in truth she and I would rather tour in a 1600 (Sport) and thrash a 1600 (HF). All cars are are horses for courses.........
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
chugga boom
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« Reply #4 on: 23 August, 2013, 07:53:29 AM »

Had both, and still got the 1600 (well 2 actually  Wink).

Sarah still says I sold the most delightful 1300 ever, but in truth she and I would rather tour in a 1600 (Sport) and thrash a 1600 (HF). All cars are are horses for courses.........

agreed, 1300 is better for just pottering around the local towns etc, 1600 zagato great tourer 1600hf great for being a menace  Wink
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1935 augusta lusso (chugga)
1935 belna saloon
1935 augusta lusso
1938 ardenne
1939 aprilia lusso
1958 appia s2
1963 appia s3 
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1972 fulvia 1600HF
1976 fulvia coupe
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« Reply #5 on: 23 August, 2013, 08:03:23 AM »

I entered the Classic marathon a few years ago and took ages to decide which car to use. The Fulvia Series 1 Sport or the Fulvia Series 2 HF 1600. In the end I took the more relaxing Sport. The four speed gearbox loved the mountains and it was more comfortable over long distances.
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1961 Lancia Flavia 1.5 Berlina. 2005 Lancia Ypsilon. 1954 Daimler Conquest. 2003 MG ZT-T 135. 1998 SAAB 9-3 Conv.
rogerelias
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MY 1600HF IN HEARTBEAT GARAGE


« Reply #6 on: 23 August, 2013, 01:08:47 PM »

I have had both, but would say the 1300 is a more buzzier engine , the 1600 seems to have more torque, and is quite relaxed at 85 to 90 on a motorway  Grin, and will do it for hours, ( GNW weekends usually  Smiley )  where the 1300 would not like it at all. I am only talking about coupes though
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FULVIA 1600HF LUSSO
1958 VELOCETTE MAC
Triumph Bonneville t120v 1972
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Jai Sharma
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« Reply #7 on: 23 August, 2013, 08:51:28 PM »

Only had coupes, both 1.3 and 1.6. Either has merit, great to push along quickly, but 1.6 for me is the best - much more torque and feels much quicker in my view.
Whether it is worth the premium is another question!
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DavidLaver
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« Reply #8 on: 28 August, 2013, 09:40:46 AM »


Aside from the obvious of "bigger engine, more torque" what would make you want a 1300 ahead of a 1600? 

There's also the "S1 vs SII and SIII" debate which saying "it has to be a 1600" can shut down.  For myself I like a lot of things about the S1 (and hence Flavia Zagato) such as the four speed box, tall thin tyres and a big steering wheel.  I like the way an S1 sits lower and corners flatter.  For sure it might be 10mph lower cruising speed but I bet round the corners increased confidence would make up for less outright grip.

Remembering Ian Conway's HF it wasn't a cruiser and didn't really want to track straight on a B road - it was hard work, stiff riding, noisy.  At low speed the wide tyres and small steering wheel made it a real workout.  Its a car to admire and on the right day and the right road an awesome machine (as the rally titles witness) but would it be a car you'd hop into in preference to a modern or a car you'd be planning trips just to have reason to use?

Then there's the "Zagato vs Coupe" debate.  He doesn't really need the back seat.  On that one I love the way both look, the visibility in the coupe is fabulous but the Zagato is still very good indeed.  He's agile enough that the climb in and out isn't an issue.  The coupe boot is huge but I expect he'd be fine with the Zagato for what he needed.   Does the Zagato really cruise better?

....and then...and then...what I often scoff at with magazine road tests "Alfa GTV vs Fulvia Zagato - which is king of the compact GTs" is that more often than not the difference between one Fulvia Zagato and the one parked next to it will be bigger than between the two different looking cars.  Condition, setup and modifications can TRANSFORM a classic car.  The Austin A40 in showroom condition will not outpace a Jag round Goodwood (of all places).  I caught "classic car club" on tv recently with an Audi Quattro test, poor clutch, notchy box, an obvious wallow, uncertain steering round the straight ahead and not a lot of obvious oomph.  How much was it just a shagged old smoker against how cars have improved per se?  They then were saying what a bargain it was...while it obviously would swallow twice the (then) asking at its first trip to a specialist.

For me (for him) a 1300 S1 Zagato, just for the quirkiness a side hinged bonnet and the spare wheel locker, standard engine and suspension, rubber mats, steel wheels, expensive tyres.  Perhaps a webasto.  What would that be missing against a 1600 Coupe or Zagato?

David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
GG
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« Reply #9 on: 28 August, 2013, 11:17:29 AM »

There are a few other things that one might mention - the coupe has superior visibility out, a light greenhouse - whereas the Zagato is much more enclosed and (to be fair) the driving position in relation to the wheel and the glass is a bit awkward. The aerodynamics of the Zagato make for more relaxed high speed, and likely less wind noise, esp. with windows open. Windows with frames seal better than those sexy ones on the coupe without. Chassis flex is non-existent on the coupes, not so simple on the Zagatos.

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B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored
lancialulu
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« Reply #10 on: 28 August, 2013, 11:23:02 AM »

There are a few other things that one might mention - the coupe has superior visibility out, a light greenhouse - whereas the Zagato is much more enclosed and (to be fair) the driving position in relation to the wheel and the glass is a bit awkward. The aerodynamics of the Zagato make for more relaxed high speed, and likely less wind noise, esp. with windows open. Windows with frames seal better than those sexy ones on the coupe without. Chassis flex is non-existent on the coupes, not so simple on the Zagatos.


Seem welded inner wheel arches to outer (tricky) makes a Z stiff.
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
DavidLaver
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« Reply #11 on: 28 August, 2013, 11:34:31 AM »


Wind noise and ventilation are both big factors over a distance.  Interesting that the Zagato is great with the windows up or down while a coupe might not be the easy fix the vendor makes out with a passing "seals are available from Omicron or Italy".

It sounds like the seating position in the Zagato isn't for everyone, something Richard Fridd commented on.  I know many shapes and sizes who've been happy with one but not ALL shapes and sizes.  It won't just be ergonomics but the feel of it.

How does the lack of rigidity in a Zagato manifest itself?

David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
nistri
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« Reply #12 on: 28 August, 2013, 01:44:32 PM »

The seats on the S1 Zagato provide virtually no lateral support. Quite exhausting on a trip over twisty roads. Andrea
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Andrea Nistri

Ardea S2
Appia S2
Fulvia GTE
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Fulvia Montecarlo
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lancialulu
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« Reply #13 on: 28 August, 2013, 05:01:15 PM »

S2 1600 Z seats are quite supportive and make for a very untiring ride/drive. We drove from Ulm to Dunkirk this year non-stop in the pouring rain and got out like it was almost a Mercedes that had got us there.

Z ventilation is quite bad and I prefer the all window open on the coupe for hot days. However the Z is much quieter esp at speed. I do not like the electric windows of the 1600 as they invariably need manual assistance, albeit I believe this was the first Lancia to be fitted with electric windows so at the beginning of the development curve.

Re the seating position on a Z (with S2 1600 seats) I have lowered (Beauty of an articulated steering column) the steering quite a bit which is an odd feeling to begin with but easily becomes comfortable and very controllable. It has also allowed a non standard dash (OMG say the purists) that hold 2 extra Lancia Fulvia dash switches (one for fan override and one for the rear fog light). The wheel is now not interfering with the view over the bonnet, and is very able to manage hairpin bends (we did the Stelvio this year at speed).

Having sold the 1300 I am not unhappy with this decision, and have complimented both 1600's with a more sedate Flavia Vignale.

I cannot comment on Z stiffness as my car was a basket case (very floppy) due to rotten most things but now with new metal everywhere it feels like my HF (which has a roll cage fitted - adding further stiffness).

Tim
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
JohnMillham
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« Reply #14 on: 28 August, 2013, 05:52:01 PM »

I think that the higher gearing and greater torque of the Z 1600 (series 2) which I had years ago, made it more enjoyable and relaxing to drive. I certainly didn't the like electric windows, or even the electric tailgate, or, come to think of it, most of the remaining electrics!
Regards, John
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