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Author Topic: Appia furgoncino - A fettler's voyage  (Read 155679 times)
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lancianut666
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Slow but rough


« Reply #495 on: 19 February, 2017, 05:48:08 PM »

Re flashing rear red lights I would be tempted to look for something safer than those tiny bad boys. my local boy racers would be straight up the back end of your beloved resto and blame you for having no #~!%^!!! indicators on your old shed on wheels. I rewired my Series 1 to have separate indicator circuits front and rear and fitted cheapo modern side lights to test it all out. A suggestion was made to mount the indicator and brake light separately on the back window shelf and keep the original small ones in situ. As I only have one rear light I might look for a more sympathetic modification
Clarkey
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Fulvia Coupe S2 Flavia Coupe 1967 1.8 Kugelfischer Prisma 1.6 carb Y10 Fila Y10 Touring Dedra 1.8 Dedra 2.0 Turbo Appia S1
simonandjuliet
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« Reply #496 on: 19 February, 2017, 06:28:57 PM »

Jim, I was chatting to Dog about the same thing earlier today. I want it to be utterly original to start with and then I can (may/ may not) add a completely separate circuit afterwards that is independent, including separate indicator switch, but I do take your point !

On the same subject and calling to all you auto-electricians/electronic wizards out there, here is a simplified wiring diagram for the indicator switch and brake/indicator circuits

Flasher unit:
I believe that P = dash light, so P on the unit connects to the bulb and grounds
L = load/unit supply and is intermittent because of the bi-metallic strip

Dash unit:
A & B I think are for an electromagnet that hold the shuttle in place and creates a contact across either 4&5 (RHS) or 2&3 (LHS)
The brake light switch creates a circuit between 1 & 3 and 4

The indicator cancel unit :
I think that this sends power to A or B on the electromagnet which breaks the circuit and the shuttle inside the dash unit returns to the centre and breaks the contact with the indicators

What I don't know (and there is a lot) is how the brake light circuit is interrupted when the flasher is on so the brake lights stay on on one side and flash on the chosen side

So far it all works, but I would like to know how it does !




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S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, '65 Mini Moke,R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 63,Fulvia Berlina GT, 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan,JTD Ypsilon - Mathilda
DavidLaver
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« Reply #497 on: 19 February, 2017, 07:05:34 PM »


If you do build a separate system ahead of an epic trip the LED stuff is really good now.

http://www.dynamoregulatorconversions.com/online-shop-for-led-bulbs-and-light-boards-etc.php

The trafficator bulbs with integral flasher circuits are genius.  Tom has yet to put that film up yet but here's his conversion from loving the warm yellow glow of his headlights to feeling safe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXw1m7I8uHs
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David Laver, Lewisham.
simonandjuliet
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« Reply #498 on: 20 February, 2017, 04:18:46 PM »

Further to the "indicator story", I received an email from a fellow French Lancisti who follows this post and he was good enough to send me some explanatory notes (in French) . I am not sure if Carello , a French supplier , or indeed Jean-Noel Avice wrote them , I must remember to ask .....

However J-N was happy that I translate and share them here (I have modified them slightly to make them relevant to Appia owners as well) :

"CARELLO Indicator Switch

As fitted to LANCIA AURELIA B 24 (also fitted to Appia S1 & furgoncino with minor wiring variations)

The CARELLO switch (Brevetato no. 18535) is powered by a 12v supply and is particularly complex and fragile because of the large number of contacts in such a small space . It consists of four independent electrical circuits which require a high degree of insulation from one another.

FESTOON BULB CIRCUIT: it is supplied by n° 5  fuse and feeds the internal switch light ,ie the small bulb that illuminates the transparent plastic lever that operates the switch; The 12V, 2Watt internal bulb (Ba 7s or Ba9s) receives 12V at terminal "P", the earth being on the metal casing of the switch. It is important to ensure that there is a very good, independent earth for this connection.

(On the Appia, the supply is slightly different, connection P on the flasher unit is used instead of  n° 5 fuse as above.)

FLASHER CIRCUIT: it is supplied by the intermittent supply coming from the flasher unit (fuse no. 9); This wire connects to the terminal "L" which In turn supplies:

                                     - for LHS, connections 2 and 3
                                     - for RHS, connections 4 and 5

            (4 and 3 are the rear indicators - 2 and 5 the front indicators)

AUTOMATIC INDICATOR RETURN CIRCUIT: This is an electromagnetic circuit supplied from fuse n° 9 to connection “54” on the “Carello” lever-switch located above the steering column in the engine compartment.

(NB the lever is moved by a pair of lobes attached to a ring on the steering column, fitted directly below the indicator return switch)

In the mid-position, this switch supplies current to both A and B connections on this switch, which in turn supplies terminals A and B on the dashboard indicator switch (A and B are permanently supplied).

- When the indicator lever is pushed to the right (ie right turn), this closes the electromagnetic coil circuit from terminal A and the lever is held to the right (by the electromagnetic field).
- When the steering wheel is turned to the left, the lobe located on the steering column moves the lever on the indicator return switch which then cuts the power supply to A. The dashboard indicator lever automatically returns to the middle position, stopping the indicators on the right side.
 (The same applies for turning left but using connection B).

BRAKE LIGHT CIRCUIT: with the indicator lever in the mid position, the two internal contact plates are also centred and are connected to the large central brass contact. When the brake pedal is depressed and the electro-hydraulic switch on the master cylinder is closed, current arrives at terminal 1. Supply comes from fuse n° 9

(in turn this completes the circuits to both brake lights)

When braking and indicating to the right, for example, only the left, internal contact plate moves and supplies the right indicator, while the right inner contact plate remains connected to the central contact, thus supplying the left brake light only.

In summary, the Carello indicator/brake light switch is of extraordinary complexity and fragility.

For after sales service, contact our suppliers:
- CARELLO in MILANO (Italy)
- NANO ELECTRIC CONCEPT in SAINT-PAVACE (FRANCE)

NB: A complete overhaul of the unit requires the cleaning and deoxidation of 16 contacts and the cleaning of 9 round contacts.
This does not include:
- possible rewinding of the coil of the electromagnet (separate quote)
- overhaul of the Carello lever switch located above the steering column (separate quote)
- For reliability and to bring the system up to today’s road standards, a hazard warning system can be incorporated using a 3 pole “Aurelia” style switch on the dashboard (separate quote)"


I hope that is clear !


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« Last Edit: 20 February, 2017, 05:11:06 PM by simonandjuliet » Logged

S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, '65 Mini Moke,R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 63,Fulvia Berlina GT, 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan,JTD Ypsilon - Mathilda
simonandjuliet
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« Reply #499 on: 23 February, 2017, 06:29:20 PM »

A long and frustrating day today, but I eventually won through

We were bottling the 2015 wines earlier in the week so not had time to do much for a few days...... and the day after we were too tired to do anything

I had an issue with the last indicator (3 working as they should, 4th not playing ball). Whilst investigating the cause, the rest of the electrics stopped working !

After disconnecting and reconnecting everything at source, the problem was found to be a dry/broken/intermittent connection on one of the bridges on the fusebox. I had already repaired one half of the bridge but the problem was the other side, so I remade the second terminal on the bridge

Once that was done I started again on the indicator problem which was finally found to be a poor contact inside the electromagnetic switch, so that was taken apart again. At least I had a better idea what I was doing this time and my homework meant that I knew how to test it as I was going along.

So to summarise 7 hours work - now, it all works as it should !


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S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, '65 Mini Moke,R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 63,Fulvia Berlina GT, 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan,JTD Ypsilon - Mathilda
stanley sweet
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WWW
« Reply #500 on: 23 February, 2017, 06:57:56 PM »

Have to admire your patience at working through these problems. Or are the locals getting used to strange foreign expletives floating across the vineyards?
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the.cern
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« Reply #501 on: 23 February, 2017, 07:37:01 PM »

Dear Simon, thank you for your explanation of the workings of the indicator switch ... I have just taken out my brain and put it in the fridge in the hope that it will be cooled down sufficiently for normal use by tomorrow morning!!!

                      Andy
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Parisien
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« Reply #502 on: 23 February, 2017, 08:32:04 PM »

Have to agree Andy, Simons trials and tribulations, then the resolution of same will prove invaluable over the coming months, so a big thank you from me too!

P
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Frank Gallagher
fay66
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« Reply #503 on: 23 February, 2017, 09:11:50 PM »

Dear Simon, thank you for your explanation of the workings of the indicator switch ... I have just taken out my brain and put it in the fridge in the hope that it will be cooled down sufficiently for normal use by tomorrow morning!!!

                      Andy
And there was me thinking Lancia over engineered components Shocked

Brian
8227 Cool
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Own 1966 Fulvia 2C Berlina since 1997, back on road 11-1999.Known as "Fay"
1999 Suzuki Wagon R+ GL, now my daughters
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simonandjuliet
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« Reply #504 on: 27 February, 2017, 05:26:35 PM »

Thanks for your comments, like most of us, you have to work your way through a lot of these things because there is not much written. I was lucky that after I'd had my first stab at understanding it all, Jen-Noel came to the rescue !

I have now fitted 2 of 4 doors, the back one this time

As always , lots of little things to do:
New brass studs and new lens on one of the rear lights, they are a bit tarnished but nicely patinated ! Aurelia owners will tell you that these are wickedly expensive to replace !
Handle fitted - lock works
Number plate surround cleaned and fitted, similar for the aluminium surround for the rear glass. These are both held in place with the tiny self tappers. For the rear screen, the tips were ground off the screws so they don't rip the new rubbers. This strip is set on DumDum to ensure no leaks
The top and bottom locator plates were removed and cleaned/painted as were the hinge rubber plates
New seals made for the doors
All polished and then waxoyled
Connected up the wires and conduit
Last thing was to fit - I had to fit the pins twice because I put the wrong colours in - Doh !

Next is to fit the glass and prison bars and move onto the next one - I reckon it will be easier to fit the glass with the door rigid


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S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, '65 Mini Moke,R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 63,Fulvia Berlina GT, 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan,JTD Ypsilon - Mathilda
dannels
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« Reply #505 on: 27 February, 2017, 06:54:23 PM »

Hi Simon,

I was very interested to read about your indicator switch. I have exactly the same set up on my early Flaminia GT. whilst the switch works - it only functions when held in the left or right position. It seems the electromagnetic part is no longer functioning. Given your experience - can you advise me on the best place to start to revive it?

Many thanks & a fantastic thread!

Cheers
Dave
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1961 Flaminia GT, 1966 Matra Djet V
chriswgawne
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« Reply #506 on: 27 February, 2017, 07:00:32 PM »

We have the same indicator switch on Jackys B24S Convertible and I have found that it's very important that the contacts are clean with no dust or suchlike.
Chris
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Chris Gawne
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simonandjuliet
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« Reply #507 on: 27 February, 2017, 07:16:42 PM »

As Chris says, I would ensure everything was clean and has decent earths, then I would check if you have 12v to the A & B terminals on the switch (with ignition on) if you don't , check the column return switch. It should have a supply to no 54 (from fuse) if not check the fuse/supply
If you do, then there should be supply to both the other terminals - if there isn't then the return switch is the problem

If you have 12v to A&B on the switch then the electromagnetic coils can be faulty and will need to be rewound

Hope that helps
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S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, '65 Mini Moke,R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 63,Fulvia Berlina GT, 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan,JTD Ypsilon - Mathilda
simonandjuliet
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« Reply #508 on: 01 March, 2017, 06:15:39 PM »

Nothing to do with indicators you'll be glad to hear !

I am starting to think about details like the tool kit. I have most of the spanners but the screwdrivers are difficult to find and those that I have seen, were not brilliant quality anyway .....

So I was recently browsing tool websites (sounds dodgy , I know !) and came across a promo for FACOM (sounds even more dodgy) wooden handled screwdrivers.

They are excellent, lovely chrome, "knock-through", lifetime guarantee etc and they worked out at less than £7 each - very old school !

I am gradually upgrading all my tools and really like FACOM, and the returns service for the "lifetime guarantee"  is excellent, if needed.

(I may have bought some other bits as well .......)



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S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, '65 Mini Moke,R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 63,Fulvia Berlina GT, 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan,JTD Ypsilon - Mathilda
chriswgawne
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« Reply #509 on: 01 March, 2017, 07:06:11 PM »

Love those wooden handles screwdrivers Simon. I think I will try to pick up a set for myself if they ship to either Italy or the UK.
Chris
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Chris Gawne
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