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Author Topic: Tapping/Knocking Noise  (Read 28364 times)
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the.cern
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« on: 21 October, 2012, 09:59:34 PM »

At last I'm having a go at telling the tale of the abortive attempt to drive to the National Weekend via N Wales in my lovely little Appia.

I started from Westcliff on 22nd Sept to drive to Llanrwst to stay for a week and then home via the National Weekend on the 30th. I had not gone 3mls when, in top, under load at 40mph there was a most horrendous noise from the engine/gearbox area. I at first thought that it was something loose under the bonnet that was vibrating as the engine came under load. Into a garage (this was 0600hrs and it was dark) to tape up anything that could be loose, the rad shutters were prime culprit. Start off again, no problem accelerating away ie engine under load, until we hit 40mph in top !!! Much muttering and cursing, into the next garage check things again, more tape on rad shutters and off again. Repeat performance, no problem 'til 40 mph so stop again more tape and a bit of wire too, to make certain. Same again, no problem, despite accelerating hard, until 40mph!!!  One more stop and think about what to do ... ahead was 150mls of motorway and 100mls of the A5, behind me was 20mls of the A127 and home. No contest, tail between legs I headed for home, transferred my tools and luggage into the Transit, put the Appia in the garage  and headed off to N Wales.

In Wales it rained for the next 6 days, so the Appia would not have been happy if it had made it !!

On Sunday I headed off to Crewe Hall, meeting up by pure chance with the Parry convoy on the A483 and enjoyed a grey but dry few hours chatting and looking at the cars, particularly the Gussies before heading for home ... excellent.

A few days later and a test drive in the Appia did not help to define the source of the noise, but an MOT was due , so I presented to the car to 'good old Ivor', told him the tale and we had a good look everywhere while the car was on the lift. Nothing obvious and a test drive with Ivor in the car was no more helpful. Revving the engine does not produce the noise, but it has now started to occur when in third gear and at a lower speed. Not what I had hoped for, but .................. it did get its MOT !!!!!!!!

I spoke to Don Cross who had had a similar problem which he eventually traced to the tip of the fan just hitting the radiator drain/bottom hose assembly when under load. That, I thought, would produce exactly the noise I am getting ..... but life is never that kind and, on inspection, I could find no sign of any such contact.  Somewhat despondent, I set the car in the garage and it now sits on blocks and axle stands ready for me to remove the prop shaft and drop the gearbox. I am just hoping that something will present itself during this exercise and I can remedy the situation. This will not happen immediately as other things, more pressing have arisen.

In the meantime, if anyone can help with a suggestion as to a possible cause of this awful noise I would be extremely grateful.

                                                    Andy

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JohnMillham
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« Reply #1 on: 22 October, 2012, 08:26:59 AM »

I would take a close look at the engine mountings, in case one has broken and is now allowing the engine to move slightly to where it shouldn't be -and touching somewhere. I seem to remember James having that problem on his Appia. Good luck finding and curing the problem.
 Regards, John
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davidwheeler
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« Reply #2 on: 22 October, 2012, 09:05:15 AM »

Before you start taking things off, can you support the car securely rear wheels off the ground over a pit and "drive" it at said 40mph?  If necessary, your co-pilot could apply load via the handbrake.  That is how I identified the prop shaft vibration on Old Boot, studying it from below.  I would think if it does not happen under acceleration it is less likely that the engine is moving but you never know.
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David Wheeler.  Lambdas, Aprilia, Fulvia Sport.(formerly Appia and Thema as well).
the.cern
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« Reply #3 on: 14 April, 2013, 03:06:02 PM »

Well, I can only say that I am extremely disappointed, but that, I regret is, from time to time, what life is like.

As I said before, I would not be tackling the Appia noise problem immediately due to other pressing matters. Such matters continue to press, but I have had a shot at diagnosis and indeed remedial works!!

The poor little thing languished in the garage from October until the end of February when David Laver dropped by to collect a couple of bits. The weather was not that bad, one of those infrequent days this winter when it was bearable, so the Appia was rolled out and, together with his two sons (ages 11 and 13) off we went for a jolly and a visit to the workshop to see the B20. Well none of us are overweight but with the extra load the tapping/ knocking noise did not need much to appear. Having got back to the garage, David pulled and pushed the engine and it was clear that, as John suggested might be the case, the engine mountings were not doing their bit in the proper way. Excellent thought I, a diagnosis, we are halfway there!!! A call to Don, yes the rubber blocks/bushes that fail in the mounts are available and, in due course they arrived. Sum up the courage to venture out of the house into the wind and cold of the garage, scrabble around on the floor under the car and extricate the mounts, which kindly surrendered without too much of a fight. Dismantling them is a knack, thanks for the tips Don, and yes they did need attention. Both mounts had distorted (photo) and I estimated that as a result the engine was sitting some 10mm too far forward. The odd thing was that, of the of the three rubber brushes in each mount, two had been replaced relatively recently whilst the third, at the top of the spring had not. These two bushes, one each side, were in very poor condition, oil had softened the rubber and they were both badly split. I rebuilt the mountings with the new bushes, that got rid of the distortion and installed them in the car. I pulled and tugged on the engine which was much more constrained with the new mountings and tested gear selection which was perfectly ok. Excellent, now for a test drive ...... It was a clear three weeks from installing the mountings until the salt, liberally scattered by our Council, was washed away and I felt able to carry out the test drive, that was yesterday. Suffice it to say that I got to the first hill and lo and behold the same noise. I have omitted the expletives for the benefit of the more sensitive readers!!! Anyway, I was not by happy !!!

I am convinced that the noise is not from within the mechanicals ie it is not big/little ends, tappet noise etc, but is from an external source. So, with my fingers crossed I propose to continue to drive it, not hard and probably not a great distance, to try to provoke failure or a chance diagnosis.

Of course, any suggestions will be gratefully received .....

                         Andy

PS. I need to submit photos separately, technical matters that my non IT brain cannot overcome
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the.cern
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« Reply #4 on: 14 April, 2013, 05:02:18 PM »

Photos, I hope these are attached and also not upside down !!!

I've moved from the i pad to the chromebook, both are new to me so lets see what happens !!!!

The first photo shows one of the mountings, upside down unfortunately, but you may see how the nut is offset to the left from an axis drawn through the centre of the bracket (with three bolt holes) which is the element bolted to the crankcase.


The second photo shows the two bushes set at the top of the spring in each mounting. Both are in a bad way. If you look carefully at the one on the right, you can see the table surface through the split !!!  These two are, I consider, the reason why there is such distortion in each of the assembled mountings.

Now I must wait to see how things develop !!!

                                   Andy


* photo (6).JPG (140.29 KB, 640x478 - viewed 246 times.)

* photo (5).JPG (132.52 KB, 640x478 - viewed 248 times.)
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peterbaker
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« Reply #5 on: 14 April, 2013, 05:09:07 PM »

Tapping could be because the long push rods no longer have the original buckets in place, mine doesn't. (Don knows about this), or caused by radiator mounting bushes worn, or loose hub caps, or worn steering arm bushes, push the steering arm up and down to check. Hope this helps.
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1961 Lancia Flavia 1.5 Berlina. 2005 Lancia Ypsilon. 1954 Daimler Conquest. 2003 MG ZT-T 135. 1998 SAAB 9-3 Conv.
DavidLaver
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« Reply #6 on: 14 April, 2013, 05:11:16 PM »

Ahhhh.  I feel your pain but it IS progress...

When fault finding computer systems I used to "reassure" the cheerful young things that fixing A problem doesn't automatically mean you've fixed THE problem.  Then when proved correct I'd pick them up with "but that problem DID need fixing..."   You might still have the noise but you now know the engine is tied in and "in a better place".  

You also know its not the air filter - because we went for a run with that removed.  

You also know it pulls well and cleanly four up.

Did we prove it is in several different gears?  That would eliminate a missing tooth.

My memory isn't that good but was it engine rev dependant or road speed?

From the "solo" to "four up" test we know it depends on load.  To make it show at town speeds a boot full of something heavy.  Bags of sand or something.  You've got the hills to show it up.  If you lived in the fens you wouldn't know you had a problem Smiley

A rolling road test was one idea - run it under load with the bonnet up and have a look and listen.  For the benefit of the others we suspected a section of throttle link but bent it out the way, also was it the inlet manifold a bit close to the side?  We put some masking tape on it hoping for a tell-tale but it wasn't marked.  The other thought was to place a ball of bluetack in that gap and see how thin it was squashed (like with plastigauge).

Rather less exotic - get it into the local friendly MOT test bay and have a prod about the gearbox mount and the prop shaft joints.

Is there a leaf spring in the engine mount or all rubber?  If the engine is mounted to welded brackets any signs of cracking such that the mount is flapping?

The fan had lots of clearance.  To eliminate that once and for all a short run with the belt removed?  It should be ok to run a short while without a water pump if that's on the same belt.

You'll find it eventually...and I'm sure find a few more "stitch in time" issues (NOT blind alleys!!) along the way.

David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
DavidLaver
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« Reply #7 on: 14 April, 2013, 05:24:50 PM »


I replied before the photos.  Any chance those springs are weak and permitting a clap to develop?

I don't remember shaking the radiator - that's a simple test for something obvious.

Tappets / buckets.  It's quite a sharp "clack" like a tappet but its load dependant... Is there a way for the push rods slap about side to side?  Can the timing chain slap about?  Would crank end float show at the pulley with someone pressing on and off the clutch?

Noises are strange things that travel though a structure but it sounds so very much like something on the engine clapping (as in applause) on the side of the engine bay...

Ah - the other thought at the time was an exhaust blow either at the manifold joint or the down pipe.  My Aurelia made a similar noise when the down pipe gasket went.

David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
ben
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« Reply #8 on: 15 April, 2013, 11:18:16 PM »

  Hi Andy
      Could that broken dynamo mount suddenly be making its presence felt?
      It does seem to me that something has broken for the problem to have appeared so suddenly.
      The way you described it originally ie coming in when you changed into top gear at 40ish suggests it is torque related so having done the engine mounts I would look at the gearbox mount next and then the prop-shaft.
      Wish I was closer so I could come and help!
                                                                                Ben
                                               
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DavidLaver
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« Reply #9 on: 16 April, 2013, 08:13:49 AM »


It is definitely with load. 

David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
the.cern
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« Reply #10 on: 22 April, 2013, 08:02:40 AM »

It is getting worse !!!!!   

It appears more readily and that with a lighter load, ie myself and a 5yr old grandson. The grandson, Tom, is one bit of good news, at last a member of the family for whom, with things mechanical, there is an attention span of greater than 5mins !!! I have started the training !!!

I worked my way through a couple of things, the radiator is firm on its mountings, a loose clamp has been tightened, but to no avail. I have previously looked at the propshaft and that seems in good order, also there is no vibration at any speed up to 40mph. I have not been faster than that as the noise is horrendous and I have not yet got so desperate as to try to drive through it !! The gearbox mount seems in good order in that there is absolutely no movement on it. I have checked the dynamo mountings and they seem tight and in good order.

I think the next area of investigation must be the tappets and also the exhaust manifold gasket, although the noise seems to have too heavy a note to be that.

I will keep hunting and am sure something will either come to light , or simply break !!! I hope not the latter, but if it is at least I will know what I have to mend !!

                           Andy
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lancialulu
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« Reply #11 on: 22 April, 2013, 08:10:08 AM »

Can you "feel" the noise either through feet (floor), or hands (streeing wheel, gear stick), or is it just audiable. If the latter I would suspect something in the engine. I knew of Cristo's Appia snapping a push rod and the engine made a hell of a racket. Anyway with these nice days now on us the pressure is on!!!
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
the.cern
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« Reply #12 on: 22 April, 2013, 03:31:26 PM »

Well Tim, there is nothing to feel through either feet or hands nor indeed through ones posterior !!!

I regret to say that I am with you now and beginning to think that it is a problem within the engine and, unless a final check on the propshaft and its joints shows up anything, it will be off with the rocker covers. I did zip the plugs out yesterday and they are identical in terms of soot and burn pattern so if its in the engine it may well be below head level, oh dear !!!

Now, where did my energy go Huh??

                                      Andy
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lancialulu
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« Reply #13 on: 22 April, 2013, 04:26:44 PM »

Is it easy to drop the sump on an Appia like a Fulvia.....?
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
appiaman
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« Reply #14 on: 28 April, 2013, 07:54:26 PM »

Hi it might be engine noise however I used to own that car and the guy who rebuilt the engine was a very good engineer.it would be very doubtful.
However Tim is right my series 2 has been breaking pushrods 3 had metal fatigue on the ali tubes they still open but under load they rattle like hell.
The other problem on these cars are the gear linkage under load that will rattle too which might be the real problem. My series one did that.
Have you checked rubber cones on props haft as they produce the same effect under load when old.
And the last thing to check which also goes wrong is the back plate off the generator if the brass bush in the back of generator has not been oiled it goes dry then wears the casing it will still work but under load it would make a lot of noise
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Lancia lambda 8th series, Fulvia 1600 sport (1972)Fulvia1.6hf (1972), Lancia Flaminia gtl, Porsche boxter, Mini Cooper
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