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Author Topic: Flavia fuel injection  (Read 631 times)
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GG
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B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored


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« on: 22 April, 2022, 03:02:07 PM »

Purchase last year of a Flavia 2000 coupe (1970) necessitated learning about the car's Kugelfischer injection system. This system  was first used on some 1.8 liter motors (about 3500 cars), and then revised for the 2 liter motors (only about 750 cars). It was only used in the 2L for the first two years of production - 1970-71 approx. For the later 2000 coupe, Bosch injection was used.

The Kugelfisher (lets call it KF here) system is quite interesting. When it was working well, it was great - smooth, good power, no fumes, and quite fine. It was working pretty well through last summer, but in the cold, the car ran very poorly, bad starting and running. Really ill. Some of this was thermostat related on the pump, but it seemed there were larger issues to be addressed from years of neglect. So the decision was made to dive in.

The KF pump is practically another motor, with its own small crankshaft, four small pistons pushing out fuel, and  several interlocking and related systems to control the pump - for richness, amount of throttle, cold temp, etc. Unravelling all these, and getting them set up right, is quite a task.

Several people have helped along the way, allowing us to unravel many of its mysteries:
- Andrew Cliff of Omicron helped distinguish differences between the 1.8 and 2 liter pumps, part by part.
- Florent Bidet got us in touch with Deleplace, a French supplier of Peugeot KF rebuild kits
- Bert Ewalds came through not only with templates for gaskets (!), but also a French magazine with 500+ photos, step by step rebuilding of the pumps. He also gave great advise on how to proceed. All great information, thanks to everyone.
- Colin Clamp of Flavia Consortium had all the manuals.
- Mike Kristick in the US had the all-important jig for setting the key control rod distance, and another manual on the injection.

All in all, we were well situated. Fettling through the winter didn't seem to get it right; but then we got lucky: Kristick had a used 2L pump from another car (engineer in Massachusetts had taken it off for a carb setup some 10-20 yrs ago), and that was a really great help. While the Lancia documentation is very clear on the 1.8 liter pump and then the change to the 2 liter pump, oddly my car had an undocumented in-between pump, with a slightly different number, and one or two small differences. While most likely the same as the 2L pump, the decision was made to rebuild the 2L pump on the bench, and then swap them out.  

Giovanni is the master mechanic for the Lancias here in Chicago. From Sicily originally, he just has lots of experience and not everyone has a hub puller for a Traction-Avant in their shop! It took some time for him to find the quiet space to work on this - but he has made good progress in the past two weeks. So far the pump is apart, he cleaned it all, replaced the seals and gaskets in its innards, opened up all passages (some were pretty plugged up), and is putting it back together again. Its looking great. Lots of crud in housings, so getting all that out assures (we hope) good running. He considers the KF pump to be similar to the SPICA used on many US Alfas, even if its similar and yet different from other KF pumps used in Peugeots and BMWs of that period. Owner's role is to sort out the data, find parts, assist in any way - and as we are in need of one rubber cup/seal, unavailable, I'll draw up and have 3D printed. Its not a critical part, so easy enough. We got new intake hoses (similar to Fiat X1/9), have to cut some gaskets, replaced the injectors with the spare ones from the 2L setup, and we're in pretty good shape. Almost there!

Info on these pumps is rather scattered, but it is possible to assemble the proper collection of info/parts. But its been a bit of "from here and there", what do those less familiar with these oddities do? Hopefully this can help someone else down the road.



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« Last Edit: 22 April, 2022, 03:18:14 PM by GG » Logged

B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored
lancialulu
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« Reply #1 on: 22 April, 2022, 04:47:32 PM »

Interesting. I wonder why the inside was so gummed up? Old petrol or poor oil. For the hydraulic section Lancia recommended (now obsolete) an obscure oil which I tracked down an Aerospace Shell equivalent. Interesting as other pumps (Peugeot etc) use engine oil source so no separate sump (with the red stopper). Mike Lucas in Norfolk is the go to guy in UK/EU for KF pump rebuilds.
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
Lancias:
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1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
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1988 Delta 1.6GTie
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simonandjuliet
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« Reply #2 on: 22 April, 2022, 05:47:00 PM »

Talking to a guy here in France (Aix-en-Provence) yesterday, he does loads of Peugeot KF systems, reckons that the pumps are "relatively" straight forward, he can remake a lot of the worn bits, but he reckons that if the injectors are tired then it becomes more difficult to get them running properly

I asked him about Flavia systems and he is happy to repair and set them up as well
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GG
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B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored


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« Reply #3 on: 22 April, 2022, 07:09:09 PM »

Thanks for both of these notes. The specified Esso Univis was an Esso (Exxon) constant viscosity oil,  low viscosity,  pretty 'thin'.as the name implies, an oil whose viscosity doesn't vary over the operating temperature experienced by the pump i.e. basically the under-hood (bonnet!)/surface temperature of the engine.Someone else suggested ATF oil. Giovanni said both the BMW and the Spica used engine oil, so not necessary to go special here.  

Also forgot to mention Brian Long was quite helpful too...

On the gummed up issue - The fuel part of the pump wasn't clogged - it was  debris in some smaller air passages, and then coolant gunk around the thermostat area. The oil/gas areas were pretty darn clean, at least on the pump we are rebuilding.

I was in touch with Mike Lucas, but this spring he was pretty booked up. There has been other mention of the French KF rebuilders, that sound pretty good. In the US, there are a few who can do it - but they tend to want 6 months and several of them aren't so interested in the Lancia KF pump. There is a local performance shop that says they have done them, but its not clear how much experience they have had. So careful work by Giovanni seems OK - and the second set of injectors are in better shape than the originals in the car. One can get (or make work) new or rebuilt injectors, but they are expensive....

Colin sent this lovely image of the special tools - great to have.




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« Last Edit: 22 April, 2022, 07:11:55 PM by GG » Logged

B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored
chriswgawne
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« Reply #4 on: 23 April, 2022, 02:39:55 PM »

Thats all fascinating  Geoff.  Funnily enough I recently came close to buying a BMW 2002Tii with Kugelfischer injection which appeared in overall good condition but which was running very badly, the fuel injection having been apparently recently  repaired by a UK BMW expert!!!! (Not Mike Lucas).
I decided not to proceed (for the moment) although I believe the car might  still be available.
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Chris Gawne
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« Reply #5 on: 23 April, 2022, 04:15:49 PM »

Excellent topic, thank you Geoff for starting it!

To complete the address list, for complete rebuild of the KF-pump there is also Gilberto Clerici in Villa Guardia (CO).
I saw this almost finished Flavia engine there last time I was at his shop.



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« Last Edit: 23 April, 2022, 04:20:34 PM by Sebastien » Logged
ColinMarr
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« Reply #6 on: 24 April, 2022, 03:15:42 PM »

This brings back good memories of my Flavia Vignale KF, which served me well in the mid-1980s and early 90s. The KF system, once set up properly, was reliable and efficient. Someone said at the time, the mechanical injection system had more moving parts that most other cars, and the 3D cam that varied richness with throttle setting, was the work of genius, even if it sometimes sounded like steel needles rattling in a tin-can.
Petrol is not a good lubricant and I always used an upper-cylinder-lubricant fuel additive. In my experience, the weakness in the system was the fuel feed pump, which had to deliver fuel to the KF system at about 20psi in hot conditions with fuel vaporisation this could be problematic. And then there were fire hazards with flexible fuel lines at these pressures!
Happy days!   


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GG
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B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored


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« Reply #7 on: 25 April, 2022, 10:10:33 PM »

Some of the inside bits from the pump..nicely cleaned, and without wear, all went back together.


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B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored
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