Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Aurelia => Topic started by: Dikappa on 31 May, 2017, 12:40:35 PM

Title: ignition!
Post by: Dikappa on 31 May, 2017, 12:40:35 PM
Another topic for the ever helpfull forum:

The B21 is now driving as it should, and seems to keep its fluids all were they belong, the occasional drip from the front suspension apart...

But the engine sometimes misfires, in inlet and exhaust, and so would like to find out if this can still be improved.

I consider two options:

1. as a test change the distributor for a one point set from a flaminia 2500. (I've one in very good condition doing nothing so that would be a quicky)
2. go for the electronic 123 ignition as offered amongst others by Huib from Viva Lancia.  I think this is the best option for a car meant to be driven, but must admit I'm also concerend about the looks of the engine compartment which will be partly ruined by the modern 'wires pointing up' distributor cap.

So I would like to learn if there's readers out there with good or bad experiences concerning the electronic ignition...

Many thanks!


Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: GG on 31 May, 2017, 04:44:18 PM
Have used the Crane Fireball on Aurelia with good success. There is a module tucked under the dash, and it uses the standard distributor cap, changing only the points for a different, light-activated sensor. One extra wire to deal with, rather minor. Always worked for me, and have had them for over 10 years on various cars.

Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: chriswgawne on 31 May, 2017, 05:26:56 PM
A properly set up original Aurelia distributor should be fine. I used one in my race car from day 1 ( as electronic ignition was banned) and never ever had a problem.
On one of our Aurelias we have a Flaminia distributor which also works fine but I am about to convert this car back to an original Aurelia  '2 sets of points' distributor.
The 123 system does work well but as I get older I have become  more concerned and enthusiastic about originality .

Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: Sebastien on 31 May, 2017, 07:56:26 PM

But the engine sometimes misfires, in inlet and exhaust, and so would like to find out if this can still be improved.

Are you sure everything else is as it should?
Camshaft setting, valve clearances?

Not sure that the symptoms you describe are ignition related. As Chris wrote, an original distributor works very well - if in good order, with a good condensator, and a good coil!

On one Aurelia I have mounted the 123 ignition distributor from Huib Geurink. Complete with new HT leads, and new coil. It also works as it should, and solved some problems that car had.

Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: Dikappa on 31 May, 2017, 08:09:48 PM
@ Chris, I fully agree, I like my cars to be as Original as possible.
@ GG: the advantage of the 123 system should be advanced advance timing through mapping, see below...

The main reason I started thinking about the 123 ignition is that a very highly aclaimed local carb restorer/engine tuner is very enthousiastic about this system, and even goes as far that he often refuces to tune an engine/carb setup on his bench if it doesnt have the 123 ignition.  He claims the (fully electronically mapped) advance timing is much more acurate and adapted to modern I'm far from an expert in these matters, so I would like to hear some opinions before I decide.

This afternoon I adapted my (non vacuum advanced) flaminia distributor (which meant relocating the clips to clamp the cap) and made a test drive, must say it drove fine, little or no difference, exept for the occasional backfire (it seemed a tad better in this respect, but I admit that micht be a biased opinion...)

On the count of originality I must admit tonight I was preparing a try out to ad a third stop light on top of the rear screen...I bought a LED 3rd stoplight originating from a smart on ebay, and it nicely folows the curve of the screen.  pictures to follow, hope to make some progress tomorrow.
I hope I won't be banned from the formu for doing this, but I feel this is a better (and morover legal) solution to make the car safer to use in our modern traffic.  I did not want to touch the Original small rear lamps, and those offer little room for improvement as they are.  Adding self made led pcb's is in Belgium illegal, and one could be liable personally if an accident (through blinding or invisibility) occurs, which is a concern.  But with the brake/winker setup I felt some extra visibility when braking would be favourable, so hope you all can forgive me!

Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: Dikappa on 31 May, 2017, 08:18:55 PM
@ sebastien: indeed engine timing should be checked (I haven't done anything on the engine side, as it is supposed to be fully overhauled by Christo in the recent past)
But indeed tomorrow a thorough check of timing and valve clearances is on the menu.  The fact that the flywheel seems to be misaligned with number one piston TDC is not very encouraging...

Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: Dikappa on 01 June, 2017, 09:05:43 PM
today did torque up the heads, and checked valve clearances.  I also found domed head nuts under the rocker carrier blocks, making the blocks sit on the heads of the nuts on one side rather then on properly seated on the heads, which could even lead to oil pressure loss...made me happy.  So swapped them for normal nuts instead...I get the feeling it would be better to takje the whole thing appart...but there's no time.
Valve clearance was also way out, to be continued tomorrow by checking the timing...

No test run today as I could not resist blasting the valve covers and priming them, they will receive a proper coat of 'wrinckle' finish tomorrow.

Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: DavidLaver on 02 June, 2017, 07:10:12 PM

I think lights in the back window is a very good idea.  When I had mine I put the original back lights in and used little round indicator and brake lights hooked into the frame.

Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: chriswgawne on 03 June, 2017, 01:08:53 PM
I think if I discovered domed nuts under the rocker gear I would worry about what else was not right with the engine which would lead me to dig much deeper. There are mistakes and 'corner-cutting', neither of which are desirable.
A few years ago I bought a car where the engine had been rebuilt some years previously by a well-known Aurelia expert. The engine had never run so out of curiosity I whipped the heads off only to discover the complete absence of water tubes! Therefore I was in for a full strip down including pulling the liners out as the insertion of water tubes is almost the first thing one does to a completely stripped block. Still at least I am not now worrying what else might have been suspect.
Its not such a big job if its all been apart recently.

Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: Dikappa on 03 June, 2017, 04:22:07 PM
@ Chris: if there was a bit more time I would Chris, really and in the near future I probably will too.

Yesterday I noticed one of the carbs dripping on idling.  Wanting to check float level I opened the carb, and on closing it again and fastening the fuel feed banjo bolt, the bushing came out.  It was already a bit out before which had been coped with using a bigger cupper ring, which then off course makes the banjo an ideal bush puller....

So this morning got myself loctite 648, cleaned it very thoroughly, made a special stand for the press and pressed/glued it back in.  Had to cure for 12 hours so found some other jobs to do...and now I'm very curious of the critics!  Not completely convinced myself (in fact I hate it!) , but in todays traffic I sort of feel more confortable with then without...
Now it can easily be undone, only one 6mm hole was drilled to feed the cable into the engine compartment.

Last picture is a battery switch I added under the dash.


Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: frankxhv773t on 03 June, 2017, 10:05:19 PM
I think I would have been tempted to put the brake light on the rear parcel shelf but you appear to have nice original stickers there.

Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: chriswgawne on 04 June, 2017, 06:15:18 AM
Am I right in saying that your car has an early B20 engine with 2 single choke carbs  or do you have twin carbs on the original B21 engine?
I went to look at this car some years ago when it was for sale before Christo bought it but I cant remember what the engine was now.
Your car is my favourite Aurelia berlina colour by the way.

Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: Dikappa on 04 June, 2017, 07:16:03 AM
Yes Chris, it has a 2.0l B20 engine with the two little weber carbs.  Sadly the engine was renumbered to the cars original B21 engine number, I think that must have happened when the car was still in Belgium (it was originally delivered new in Belgium, strangely enough as a right hooker)
I'm in touch with the second owner of the car, but also he has no information when the engine swap occured.  The renumbering can be explained as the engine number was also on the car's documents in Belgium, and this was checked by the Belgian MOT stations.  I remember well my father also renumbered his engines when he swapped to avoid discussions (road tax is dependant on engine capacity here)

I still have a correct B21 engine here, so maybe one day I'll put that in order and make the car original again.  A friend in Sweden is however restoring a B21 with exactly the same B20 engine in it, and he has documentation that this engine was supplied by the Lancia factory after some warranty issue.  So maybe the same happened to my car...

Again I'm still very pleased with the car, the body and interior have been done very well, and Christo just did not get around (or lost interest) to suspension and drive train, so I sort of continue his work.  It's just that all these little things that keep occuring are not really make me feeling confident.  Normally I buy a complete project, and then end up doing most everything, which then takes ages to finish it, so this was sort of a shortcut (hmmm!)

Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: chriswgawne on 04 June, 2017, 07:28:44 AM
At least my memory isn't completely shot then!
I know Christo must have spent a lot on the lower body and the interior and somewhere I think I still have a copy of a condition report on your car from 2010 - its B21-3532 isn't it?
Kind regards

Title: Re: ignition!
Post by: Dikappa on 04 June, 2017, 11:08:02 AM
Nothing wrong with your memory Chris!  That's the one.  I was a bit worried by the colour at first, even asking Jan Van Hoorick whether it was an Original colour, but the moment I saw it in the flesh I was sold.  Now it turns out we have two B21's  in the Belgian club, and both have this colour.