Lancia Motor Club

ok thought i'd do a monthly feature on Lancia sales in Europe, the figures are taken from Automotive News Europe, who get their data from JATO Dynamics.

Although sales figures for makes are released mid way through the following month, the more detail figures of make & model take longer so come out. So yesterday in the post i received the figures for jan-sep 2007

model.........2006.......2007..........change
Musa.........26543.....30591..........+4048
Phedra........3812.......3329............-483
Thesis..........745.........815.............+70
Ypsilon.......59378.....62229..........+2851
"other"..........835.........20.............-815

total...........91313....96984..........+5671

as you can see without the Ypsilon or Musa Lancia would be dead in the water! The Musa actually outsells the Fiat Idea its based on (having sold 22155 jan-sep07), and i can't remember the last time that happened! Sadly the Thesis just doesn't get the recognition it deserves, but it has outsold the Alfa 166 (706 jan-sep)!

For the Fiat Group the best selling car so far this year is the Grande Punto @ 305547, which is also the best selling car in its class in Europe!

Whilst 56416 people have bought Fiat's Bravo this year, 14426 have bought a Stilo!!!!!!!!!!!!WHY!

Assuming you mean, why would anyone buy a Stilo?, then its presumably due to discounting showroom models to clear stock for the Bravo.As the owner of a stilo abarth I can assure you though that there is nothing wrong with them and in the 3 door version it's appearance is much more agressively sporting than the rather soft looking Bravo I think.Mine is black with a black/white leather interior and always attracts positve comments.Its only a 1.9 multijet diesel but has 140 hp and virtually as much torque as our old 2.4jtd kappa.

Looks very nice, is quick round the streets, fabulous at speed on the motorway and  60+ to the gallon.What do you want....?

Scarpia, I salute your choice. After all, if we weren't all fans of "unconventional" cars, would we be on this forum? So, you have the all those advantages listed and a car that is a rare sight on the road  :)

whilst i accept everyone has their own taste, i can't for the life of me imagine why people would buy a Stilo over a Bravo. The Stilo is old, will have awful resale values meaning in a few years time you won't be able to give it away. It nearly ruined Fiat, Fiat had to relaunch it without all the gizmos a short while after it was launched because they got it so badly wrong! It was Fiat trying to be German! Whilst the 3 door looked ok, the 5 door was awful, it had no flair, & from what i see & hear its not reliable either!

Ok i admire your brave choice, but for me Stilo represented all that was wrong with Fiat.

I think you will find that is most Fiats not just the Stilo...having just sold our Marea 2.4 TD HLX.

What FIAT need is the revival like what Alfa had with the 156, hopefully they will with the new 500 + Grand Punto.

well the marea was a "large" Fiat, & it was never going to hold its value at all, the trade doesn't like large Fiats, one of the reasons why the Croma is well down on last year (19904-2007 vs 28360-2006)

But the 156 didn't give Alfa that revival, yes it helped them sell more cars, but if you're unlukcy enough to have a 156 & trade it in for something else outside the Fiat Group then yet again you can't give it away, dealerships don't want 156's either, & thats why the 159 isn't selling as well as Fiat hoped, too many people got burned with the 156, and aren't going back to Alfa for more.

I cannot speak for the uk market but italian cars tend to have poor residual prices.Have done as long as I can remember.Lets be honest its not for reasons of financial prudence that one buys an alfa 166, Kappa or a Thesis.
On the other hand we ran a doblo for 3 years, having bought it for 6000 euro from a dealer with 6k on the clock.we sold it privately for over 4800 ! best value we've ever had.

I find it amusing that you make such a distinction between a stilo and a bravo.The king is dead long live the king I say.The Bravo is a good car but it will also seem a bit out of fashion in 5 years when its replacement comes along and chunky lines are "in" again.

As you said it's a question of taste and I actually find the new Bravos nice but a little bland.lets face it neither are a fulvia , aprilia, etc

Must admit I've grown to appreciate the Stilo, particularily the SW after a ride from Turin Airport in a very high spec taxi with the skydome fitted, it was a 2.4jtd and was a flying machine in an Italian taxi drivers hands :o

I also like the square lines on the 5 door & the 3 door Abarth looks great.

Having just got the Grande Punto, I was looking at the Bravo in the dealers & at first sight apart from the size, it's very much in the mould of the Grande Punto, & without looking at the Bravo nameplate it could easily be mistaken for a Gr Punto.
One thing my wife picked up on today with the Gr Punto, why no badges on it ??? surely a bad marketing feature, there is nothing to distinguish an Active from a Dynamic or a Sport Why?  with ours the only way you can tell what engine it has is by a small multijet badge buried at the bottom of the grille, nothing else seems to be distinguished in any way on the other models, how can you indulge in a bit of one upmanship if no one can tell what you're driving :'(

Fiat Group have always designed and built cars, not for export, but to satisfy their home market unlike, say BMW who from the word go concentrated on capturing overseas trade. My Alfa Romeo for example has an abundance of irrating features that are probably quite acceptable to the Italians. A good example being the climate control system that refuses to function until the ambient temperature exceeds five degrees. Frustrating in the extreme to someone who often leaves the car outside and has to make very early starts. The inner windscreen just refuses to de-mist. Also, and perhaps even more annoying is the impossibility to introduce cool air from the face level vents, meaning the interior quickly fugs up, making things quite unbearable until a side window is opened.
From a depreciation point of view the buyer reaps what he sows. Big front end discounts means the car is looking for its natural retail price. If the customer receives
  -20% at the point of purchase then he/she should expect that to be reflected in its exchange value after three years. My 147 was bought through a car supermarket as a 'pre-reg. zero mileage' option, saving £4500 over list. After my tenure it will probably make around half what I paid which after three years is a loss (?) of £5500. Not so bad. Buying any new car, lets face it is a foolish thing to do.

pain in the backside these italian cars eh..

why don't we boycott and all go and join the volvo owners club.There is a lot to be said for it when the only problem is being bored by ownership I guess.

Its not that easy. Volvo are not as boring as you think. Boring is driving a 500bhp car within the ridiculous legal 70mph motorway limit at three in the morning.

I'm probably going to be unpopular for this, but I cannot see the point of Lancia 'returning' in RHD. As I am in Ireland and work for a Fiat/Alfa Dealership, we have a hard time shifting Fiats and Alfas never mind a NEW brand. For example we probably sold maybe 1 or 2 Cromas. Fiat could easily have stuck a Lancia badge on that car it would have saved them the bother of building a NEW Lancia. I cannot see the point of the MUSA, its basically an upmarket IDEA.
Dont get me wrong, the Fulvetta if it goes into production will be a nice looking car. The new Delta, I dont know, if the BRAVO does not sell well, why will the DELTA.
I've watched FIAT over the past 10 years change their Logo so many times its hard to tell a Fiat from one era to the next. Its as if they cannot make up their mind about their own product.
The resale values are also a problem. You can buy, over here, a 156 for as little as 1000 Euros or less. However a timing belt change for such a car could cost 800 Euros.
If Fiat get it wrong, and they have a habit of doing so, they could ruin the Lancia name beyond saving. Dont know if this is popular knowledge yet, but the new BRAVO in Australia will be known as the RITMO, which people in the UK will remember as the STRADA.
Maybe Fiat will call the next new Lancia the Beta for the hell of it. I can imagine TOP GEAR having a field day with that.
Oh and by the way I do own a Lancia, a real one before Fiat got their hands on the company.......

I think the answer is that they have sold well in mainland Europe in recent years - largely because Lancia now appear to be able to build cars that do meet the needs and aspirations of export markets.  The Musa and Ypsilon, both very successful, and the former outselling its Fiat counterpart, may be based on Fiat platforms, but they are different enough to be perceived as such, and to sell to a different market segment.  There is no reason to think that the trick cannot be repeated for the new Delta.

Here, have one of these   ;D

(http://www.army.mil/cmh/Museums/Showcase/Myer/1917Helmet.jpg)

only one careful owner (Mr O.Fogey) ;)

Maybe I should also point out, my first Lancia was a 2000, my second a Beta, my third a Delta, my forth a Delta and my last one a Thema. My first Fiat was a 3p, my second a 131, a selection of Lancias as listed followed, then a Scudo, a Stilo, another Stilo, a 156, a Ulysse, followed by the earlier Multipla and finally a later Multipla. Next year who knows...the missus drove my Thema till it was stolen and burnt out, followed by 2 156's. My 3 1/2 year old drives a little Fiat 500 powered by pedals (friendly to the enviroment). And yes I also own a Fiat Ducato and finally, the only 'foreign' car I've ever had a 1967 Volvo Amazon which I've had for years. I've sold tens of thousands of parts over the past 30 years to help people who own Fiats, Lancias, or Alfas so they could keep them on the road. If that makes me an old fogey so be it, but I've also had to listen to 30 years of complaints about the previous mentioned make of cars which I think gives me a better insight than most of what Joe Public, old or new thinks of said Italian product. The reason I bought a B20 is because I WANTED one, and believe me, nobody buys a B20 for the hell of it.
I remember stocking and selling dozens of door handles for Dedras 'cos they were made of rubbish plactic and broke as soon as they were opened. Years later I'm doing the same with Grande Puntos. If Fiat wants to sell a quality Marque which I believe Lancia is they need to do it properly, or as I've said before, they will ruin its identity. Prove me wrong by all means, I dont care, I'll still sell the parts.....

Kevin - you're right - if Fiat want a quality brand the products have to live up to that.  I sense on recent products they are getting there (the new 500 looked wonderful close up, and all the trim and fit seemed to be top notch when I crawled all over one recently) - and recent Lancia products that I've seen, primarily several Ypsi's, seem equally well screwed together.  Anyway, I shall find out soon enough, when I get my new Delta...

Kevin,

the reference to O fogey was not aimed as a description of you but was an allusion to a similar debate and uproar in the club resulting from a fairly innocent seeming article in VL last year penned by a member under that name. It basically suggested that after borrowing an Ypsilon, the author found it disappointing and that modern cars were not really Lancias but rebadge fiats. (or words to that effect)
It upset a few elements in the club and caused let us say a tsunami to roll through the organisation. Your pre fiat /post fiat comments merely remind one of the debate, hence Neils kind offer of the tin helmet..

Your right in your comments about quality of fitments and etc, when I collected our top spec new Kappa estate, within 2 miles of the garage both rear courtesy lamps had fallen out of the roof lining and were swinging by their wires from the roof... Otherwise it was a good car.
We had two 320 BMW estates in the same period. the petrol one had 3 engines in the first 2 years of ownership.My Peugeot 607 had an emission system that shut down the engine to max 40 mph when it needed replacing. The car was in the garage for 7 weeks before Peugeot mechanics from Paris finally replaced the whole system because no body could reset the engine management.My espace had a new engine and gearbox at 65K miles.

The point is; your right about stupid quality failures and recalls etc but the other makes have the same issues. Its just that they manage the bad news much more astutely and their brand name is currently more resilient. 

If Lancia are going to succeed in the UK they will have to improve their after sales support.  Have had my Kappa Coupe for 6 years now and the odd parts needed had been supplied within a week (eg headlamp, exhaust system) but 4 months ago the remote locking button on the second of the keys failed (the first one failed 2 years previously).  On attemping to order replacement keys, I was told that they were only available with a new sensor unit which was duly ordered, provided I paid a £250 deposit, in early August and I am still waiting! I keep being told that they are on back order but each promise date comes and goes. Fortunately it does not preclude me from using the car but I have had to switch off the alarm.  Doesn't bode well.

Peter

ah Kevin, good to see you on this forum aswell, are you follwing me?? ;D BTW guys for anyone in ireland who wants parts i'd highly recommend kevin!

But back to the issue at hand. i started this topic with just the intention of pointing out that with a limited range they are actually doing quite well with what are esentially rebadged Fiats (or if you take the Phedra, a rebadged Fiat, Peugeot, & Citroen!) I believe lancia can come back strong with the new Delta, too much rests on this model for Fiat to mess it up. If its as good as the Bravo its based on it'll be a cracking car, i drove a Bravo and was blown away by it (it was the sporty version) though i didn't like its steering at all.

Fiat have to get their public image back on track though. All makes have quality woes from time to time, every make have recalls (even Lexus & Toyota) but Fiat need to do their PR  better. Too often do i hear people who say they'd never touch a Fiat or Alfa, & when i say to people i fully intend buying a new Lancia Delta they think i'm mad! But i'm not, i'm simply passionate about cars, & passion for cars for me means Italian. I've owned 3 Fiats, 2 Alfas & one Lancia & they've never let me down, i've never been stranded by one, never had trim fall off etc...

C'mon Fiat, give us something to be proud of! Give us a Delta worth owning, give us Lancia's that are more than re-badged Fiats, and for the love of God, hire better marketing people!

I was at a Christmas party today, in a hotel room full of screaming kids, a bouncy castle, train kind of thing, loud DJ's, Santa and his helpers plus face painters galore, so as we say over here 'Me head is wrecked'.
Time for one last rant....
Way back when, we used to sell loads of window regs for 127's. Hundreds of the things. They were a kind of wire arrangement that fitted around pulleys and were held in place ( before fitting ) by a little metal clip. The idea was, you fitted the wire around the pullys, then, and only then removed the clip. The clock spring took over and the wire tensioned. Remove the clip at the wrong time.....PAIN. We told customers, time and time again, PLEASE for the love of God, dont remove the clip till its been fitted. The following day the customer would return with blooded fingers, cursing FIAT and everything it stood for.
The Regata, a nice car in my opinion. It had a wierd pully/quadrant type of clutch cable. It followed a route from the pedal across the back of the exhaust downpipe to the pully which sent it at a 90 degree angle to the clutch fork. It always broke, regardless of what, or of how careful you fitted it. When we mentioned it to Fiat as a bad design, they said. 'We have had no problems with clutch cables breaking, the cables you speak of account of such a small percentage of the total cables sold, so as to render NO PROBLEM' In other words, the amount of RHD cables made meant nothing to them in a LHD market. The LHD cables never broke because they simply ran in a straight line from the pedal to the gearbox.
In the Selespeed 156, Clutchs began slipping or not engaging properly. Fiat saw the problem and made a new improved clutch, to be used with a new ECU. When you ordered the old clutch part number the system to you to order a new clutch part number, plus an ECU part number. However if you order the NEW clutch part number it did not tell you to also order an ECU. Can you see the problem. Fiat couldn't, and blamed us for not fitting the parts correctly after customers complained of clutchs slipping. In fact in some cases, Fiat told us to fit new gearboxes, or clutch actuators, which in a Selespeed, cost more then a G'box.
Recently we had an Italian over to ask why were were not selling enough spare part. We pointed out that one of the biggest motorfactors in the country was next door to us, and that we could not compete. He told us to tell our customers we were selling genuine parts. We told him, so are the motorfactors. Open a Fiat clutch for example, its most likely a Bork and Beck, or a Valeo. It does not need Fiat to be written on it to make it genuine.
Years ago Fiat made a car that cut out when it came to a halt (intentionally). When you pressed the clutch ( providing the cable did not break ) it started again. The also make a biofuel car (Punto), an electric car (Seicento) and years ago make a dual fuel cars ( Beta ) and the Regata. Does anybody know this, does anybody care ?  Each time a Ferrari ( with a Fiat badge ) won a race they should have shouted from the highest hills.
Fiat do have a good product, but they have no idea how to convince people to buy it. The Ducato van came out first in 1983 or therabouts. Now, all these years later it is the best selling, and most wanted van in Europe  WHY. Every campervan you see ling the roads every year at the Tour de France is most likely a Ducato,  WHY.   
End of Rant....but one more thing, in Ireland Vehicle Registration Tax can be up to 30% depending on the engine size. With a budget coming in the next few days, its to change, but it probably will not decrease. Lancias better be CHEAP.

Oh and no, I was not offended by the 'Old Fogey' thing, but I may still need the helmet. What the hell were Lancia thinking about when they didn't put a syncro on 1st gear of an Aurelia. And as for the design of the propshaft.......

Hi Kevin,

It's not just 'the luck of the Irish', as we in SA haven't had a 'proper' Lancia agency for yonks, so it looks like we've been spared a lot of agony! 

But I do remember when we did in the 1980s, when I bought a brand new Lancia from them (a Montecarlo), and regularly spent a large chunk of my salary at their spares department on behalf of my older cars, that I was never made to feel like a valued client.  To my knowledge the old bloke who owned the place never greeted anyone, and often asked the Head of Spares (in my presence, while gesturing at other customers on the showroom floor), "Who's that bloke?" in a rather suspicious and disdainful manner.  (Not that he ever went up and spoke to them, mind you, he just wanted to know who was "in the house"!)

Earlier this year I had lunch with someone with impeccable connections in the Fiat and Lancia heirarchies, and when queried about Fiat's management, he said that their biggest problem is "arrogance", and he's Italian himself.  Without wanting to offend Italians in general (remember, it's the parent company Fiat we're talking of), I have to say I agree with him.  Their attitude often seems to be one of "you need us more than we need you".  One would think that the flood of red ink on their books over the past few years would have taught them a lesson...

In my experience, the young guys out here who work the spares counters nowadays are little more than 'computer jockeys' - if it's not on the system, they can't find it / don't know what it is.  They have no first hand knowledge of cars.  To illustrate the point, I took my HPE Lancia petrol cap to our local Alfa agent because it's the same as an Alfa part.  The counter clerk says, "What car's that from?"  "You tell me" I replied, not daring to mention the L word, and that's where it ended, with a No Sale. 

The same Alfa agent insisted that I had to buy the entire dipstick for a Uno Turbo, just to get the little grommet that is also common to the Beta model's dipsticks, although I got those 2 weeks later for about 3 Euros each from a Fiat dealer after I stood behind the counter and showed him the part on the computer screen.  In stark contrast, the Head of Lancia Spares in SA I mentioned earlier, used to be able to look at a sample and recite the part number from memory, but nowadays he's working in a casino servicing slot machines and roulette tables...

Fiat also need to drop their myopic view of looking at their domestic market, and think internationally.  They need RHD models more than we need them.

i think you'll find though, the lack of knowledge of people in dealerships is an industry wide problem, and not confined to the Fiat Group

Reading all these comments makes me feel lucky that I have found a FIAT dealer who I cannot find fault with.  I have been dealing with County Motors in Carlisle for about nine years now and I always feel that they cannot do enough for you.  Even when I have to phone them (which is not very often), they immediately know who I am, and always speak to me on first name terms.  Whenever ordering parts for my Lybra, there has never been a problem.  The longest I have ever had to wait for a part is only a few days.  I only hope that they get Lancia when they return as I will definitely be dealing with them for many years!  ;D

I didn't think that any Fiat dealers were going to get Lancia franchises, only the selected Alfa outlets will get Lancia 'boutiques'.  In some cases, as Stu points out, that's a shame.  Our local Fiat dealer (Vickers in Telford) has been really helpful with the Ypsilon, sorting out the knackered CV joint in double quick time time for Bristol last April.  I've not heard good things about the existing regional Alfa dealers, but we have a new one in Shrewsbury (Budgen's ex-Peugeot) who might be better.

Don't get me started on Mercedes-Benz dealers  >:(

I think you'll find there will be a few "new" Alfa dealers even HR Owen have started one in London
I believe

That’s true – for example, Renault Meganes have a particularly dreadful reputation down here, where it seems as soon as the odometer reaches 100,000 km, the ‘wheels start falling off’, the agents don’t want to fix them, and the spares (scarcely available) cost a fortune.

It’s not a generational issue that can be blamed on the ‘youth of today’.  ;) If  manufacturers are going to build cars which are more complicated than a space shuttle, they better train up some rocket scientists if they are going to maintain them.

But the bottom line is that when it comes to maintaining a car for more than 3 to 5 years, most manufacturers' attitude is “Screw it, let’s NOT do it”.  (Apologies to Sir Richard Branson.)  Let’s face it, the modern car is a disposable, recyclable commodity.  Don’t fix it, just buy a new one.

Unfortunately the ineptitude of the staff at other marques is cold comfort to me as I only drive Lancias, so I guess a good reason for not buying another new Fiat product would be to spread my risk…

Lemme guess Stu.  County Motors in Carlisle is probably a small, family-run business without a ‘boutique’, and all that ‘brand building’ hype?  Fiat, “people buy from people”, and it’s good products and good people that mostly makes a successful marque.

W.O. Weernink in “La Lancia” (3rd Edition) rates the Lybra as “…the best Lancia ever produced in terms of quality and reliability, as well as classic Italian styling.”  So it sounds like you won’t be needing many spares anyway. You are doubly blessed!  The closest I’ve ever been to a Lybra was in Greece while on holiday, where I spotted a lovely station wagon on the island of Aegina.  ::)

Hi Guy,

You are partly right about my Fiat dealers.  They are a small dealership in that they only have two branches.  They have been around for over 30 years and started selling Fiat and Alfa Romeo about 13 years ago.  Prior to that, they sold Austin Rover based cars and Daihatsu.  The company also owns a major truck servicing business and one of the main motor factors in and around Carlisle.  I think it is due to their background that they are so good.  Also, many of their employees are enthusiasts.  I was told that the first time I took the Lybra there (and also my Fulvia), all the mechanics were arguing over who was going to work on it, such is the enthusiasm!  If only all Fiat and Alfa dealers were like this  ::)

What you have read in "La Lancia" about the Lybra is quite right!  As far as I am concerned, it is the best modern car I have ever owned.  I have previously had a Y10, Fiat Uno MK2, Bravo MK1, and an Alfa 156.  I don't care what people say in the "true Lancia" arguement, the Lybra is definitely a true Lancia at heart, and it is the perfect car to own alongside the Fulvia!  After four years of ownership, it still puts a smile on my face everytime I drive it.  :)

Wot, "Is this the right room for an argument?" (Again.)  ::)

It's really time people put this "true Lancia" thing behind them. All it does is cause trouble...  :(

If Wim Oude Weernink says that about the Lybra, who am I to argue?  Case closed. :)

Perhaps someone can explain to us exactly how Fiat interpret the Lancia brand?

I think your optimism that anyone from Fiat would know this is to be applauded but I wouldn't hold your breath....

I see lots of Lybra's here in Belgium, and the estate looks very nice.I don't know to what extent it shares it's genes with the Dedra before it but I've always regarded it as a facelift Dedra where the styling was much more successful.In both cases I couldn't quite love the saloons as I found the rear end treatment on both a little drab.I know of no particular problems with the Lybra and think it's as good as any recent Fiat vehicle but I find it a meaningless overstatement to claim it was the best Lancia ever made and completely subjective of course.I haven't yet saved enough for La lancia but i'm suprised at such a statement appearing unless it's quoted out of context.

By "drab", you mean "understated", surely?! The Dedra has some nice touches at the back if you look hard enough.

Anyway, the published figures put into context Lancia's goal of selling 300,000 cars per year - if it's 100,000 sales in 9 months, then it must be about 130,000 in a year, and hence they need to more than double sales to reach target. I can't remember how long they set themselves to get there, though...

wash my mouth out with soap, did I say drab? Of course I meant "understated".


I  actually prefer the rear end of the dedra saloon to the lybra saloon which is even more "understated" but i definitely prefer the overall look of the front end on the Lybra and the estate as a whole.

and this sophisticated "understatement" is all very well but I do sometimes wish Lancia would be a little more assertive in what they want to "state".I don't really need convincing but the rest of the public won't "look hard enough" to notice the redeeming features.! Thats why I rather like the photo of the new delta integrale.No danger of understatement there..

When I started working for a Fiat/Lancia dealer the first Lancias I came into contact with were Flavias/2000's Fulvias and Betas. I was unaware of earlier models. There was one customer whos Dad had a Lambda, but to be honest he may as well have had a rocket ship for all it meant to us. As far as I was concerned the twin cam engine could have been a Lancia part rather than a Fiat part. After all the Betas were FWD and a bit ahead in terms of finish than the 132 or 131 which carried the same engine. It was only later on did I find out that Fiat had bought Lancia, but it didn't make me think they had 'diluted' the marque.  Unless a new potential Lancia customer knows the history of the motor car he will care less about where his car may have come from over the value he is getting for his/her Euro or Sterling.
What do Fiat think of Lancia ???  My boss, the son of the owner, is looking forward to Lancia coming back. He has fond memories of his dads Thema. The salesmen we have, could be a problem...the only thing they are interested in , or love...IS COMMISSION !!!

In Torino at the evening cocktails with fireworks party at Biscaretti, Olivier Francois (ex Citroen) the new Lancia Brand President had a good late night try at explaining the Lancia brand to us, or at least I think he did, because by that time I was half asleep as it was well after 'pumpkin time'.  :P I can't say I heard anything really new from him except rah, rah, rah, and how great Lancia was going to be again.

But I think Kevin has "hit the nail right into the lid" (in the spirit of mixed figures of speech used on this forum - just in case someone's 'in wicked, pedantic mode', it's a quote), it's all about (more) PROFIT for Fiat.

The gist of chapter 18 in the new "La Lancia" is that at the the end of the nineties Lancia was selling better quality cars in greater numbers than ever before, and then along came Morchio and Demel...

I could be completly wrong here, but I have a hazy recollection that in 1993 or 1994, we (in Ireland) actually sold more new Lancias than in th UK. In or around the same era Alfa began a re-emergance with the 145/155 etc. Could it be that Fiat wanted to 'push' one brand in favour of another. People seem to have less of a problem associating Alfa with Fiat than they have Lancia with Fiat.  I remember at that time trying to order some Alfa part from Fiat (before they 'officially' joined up) and getting a lot of grief from Fiat at the time when they stated that Alfa would be marketed as a seperate brand.

As an ardent Dedra Lover I'd like to add a couple of comments.
I have always though that Dedra saloons as a whole, are very nicely understated & underrated, and the back end is far nicer than that given to it's cousin, the Tempra saloon which always looks a bit awkward, one feature seen on Tempra in this country was the rear window wiper set up, heavens alone knows why Lancia didn't consider it as standard for Dedra in one of the wettest countries in Europe (I Think the Emerald Isles beat us).

The reason Ireland sold more Dedra's in 1993-4 was probably they had more hanging about! not many were sold in the Uk in 1994 as they were only the residue of the 1993 RHD cars which were left over, as Dedra RHD production actually ceased in 1993.

As far as Kevin's salesmen only being interested in their commisson, :( that has always been the downfall in Fiat/Lancia/Alfa products here, but I understand that with Alfa & hopefully Lancia, in future the criteria for bonus payments etc to the Dealers will not be on the number sold, but based on customer satisfaction; perhaps that might make them sit up and take a bit more notice whentheir lack of interest hits their pockets ;D

We also had a call from Fiat yesterday regarding satisfaction of service from the Dealer regarding our new Grande Punto, Felt sorry for the poor bloke after our recent experiences, but we were fair to the Dealers, rating them mostly 8-9 on a scale of 1-10, but he wasn't happy when I told him we rated Fiats performance as 1 or 0 on the same scale.

Brian Hilton
8227 8)

I knew from the moment that Fiat bought Alfa there would be problems for Lancia as a 'brand'.  (Gee, I hate using that term when talking about the cars I love.)  I see more problems emanating from Alfa for Lancia than from Fiat, where Lancia fits into the stable is concerned, as the Alfa name is so much better known, compounded by the problem of marketing so many marques, all with very proud racing histories?  IMO that's why they wanted to push Lancia forward as a maker of bigger luxury cars like the Thesis, and just look how that strategy worked out...

I know I've posted this before, but this seems relevant as it offers some insight into Fiat's strategy for Lancia

http://www.italiaspeed.com/2007/motor_shows/frankfurt/lancia/press_conference/1209.html

full year sales figures for Italy have been produced,

Lancia is up 5.28% to 103710
Fiat is up 10.83% to 602907
Alfa is up 2.4% to 73545

of Lancia's total, 69673 were Ypsilon & 30962 were Musa, so everything else in the range sold 3075 (ie Thesis & Phedra)