Lancia Motor Club

http://www.lancisti.net/forum/showthread.php?8586-Roof-chopping-on-B20s


I am sure there'll be a few more opinions on these apparent goings on!


P

For a one off, you pay your money and take your choice. But another eight is a slightly different matter. The first car looked in perfectly reasonable condition for a restoration but the later pictures on instagram are of a complete basket case, if not worse. If the eight follow on cars are all based on projects in this bad a condition I can see the argument for creating something desirable but completely non standard.

I'm afraid this is a strong new trend in the automotive world of taking classics and radically modifying them into something of much higher performance, often with ultra modern mechanicals. This car is at least true to something Lancia could have built.

In a way I think it's a bit like embracing Stratos replicas or Alfa V6 engine Montecarlos. It's a different way of enjoying cars.

Is the owner a friend of Snow White?
While I like the workmanship it's seems another case of someone thinking they can do better than Lancia did, shame they decided to butcher another lovely B20 to achieve something that to my mind is a retrograde step.
Why not have a complete car made from scratch if the owner has access to the sort of funding this must have required rather than orphanising another poor B20 for someones own vanity.

Brian
8227 8)

Anyone know the Augusta?

https://instagram.com/p/4PTVtKL3bO/?taken-by=rizzleperks

An interesting roll cage has been slotted in, not least to help with seat belt mountings. Also, a change from right hand to left hand drive!!

Altogether though, a shame to butcher what appeared to be a pretty much sound B20.

Can anyone make out what engine that is?

                                          Andy

Some more info....

http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/09/floored-by-a-fuorilegge-the-lowline-lancia/

It's the March Special which was sold at the Brightwell's auction last year and recently was for sale at more than double the price it fetched. I see they have found its engine and gearbox - or another one. I like the look of the B20s and the photography is, as usual with them, excellent. It makes me think it would be worth while digging up the remains of my third series car which I buried in Berkshire in the 1970s, after driving into a hedge. 
Regards, John

I think they have lost something essential in the lines by rounding off the back end of the rear side windows during the roof chop. The slight flattening of the curve on the standard car, and most (if not all) Lancia's own low roof B20s is a subtle but essential part of the Aurelia GT look.

John, can I sign up to said expedition, am a master metal detectorist, good with a shovel and make S**T hot tea.....;)


P

Yes, sure. There's a B12 and an Augusta saloon there, too. If they don't suit you there's also my brother's Buick, which he drove down from London just to dump! Trouble is, they are a good few feet under - and I've no idea what's on top these days. Finding the correct field might not be all that easy either, but one day it will be worth while trying. By the way, I don't drink tea!
Regards, John

Everyone has their own view on "standard" or "mod".  Change the colour?  Electric fan and petrol pump?  Where do you draw the line?  Its a pub conversation that will always run to last orders.

Another point to divide people:  it seems like the motivation was to "put Aurelias on the map" which is either "about time" or a cynical "smart move having laid in a stock of project cars".

As for what they've achieved...as soon as you take the bumpers off you're down the "mod" road and things go out of balance.  "My" car ended up with different rear wheel arches in a different place and the rear window didn't look quite right with the rear sat lower.  "Mine" (its ten years on now since it went...) looks ok with the bumpers off but better with them on.  This one looks great without the bumpers and at the height its sitting which is a great achievement.  Is this the first lowline with the big rear window?  Did the originals have different rear windows?

If I'd have kept my car how far might I have gone with it...?

I'd have had those wheels on it for sure.  A triple carb setup likewise and I'm sure I could have been tempted by a Flamina engine and box for the availability and robustness and power. The tray for the carbs I don't like: I'd have had a period air filter or used rivets instead of welding.  There's a period spiral wound petrol hose I like, the "D" cars had it.  I love the original steering wheel, even more than the Nardis which of course are fabulous so regret their choice here.  I like the seats, the rear lights suit it.  The headlights are nice, not so sure about the fog lights or spots, the originals are SO special why change them?  A shame to loose the front sidelights which throw a gorgeous star pattern when on.  The bonnet latches are lovely, I once looked at that style for the boot. The cage is well done, fire bottle subtle, harnesses suit it.  Not so sure about the particular matting or quilted tunnel cover but like that its not carpet or over done - the spirit remains.  The dash is good.  I'd prefer alloy handles but good to see its Lancia bits.

Its been well done and I do like it.  Said it.

Would I have one?  Having let my "bad boy" go the one I hoped I'd be able to buy "later" was  a totally original first or second series car.  Would I put one of these in the "dream garage" next to it for "everyday use"?   I think I'd rather a totally original PF Flamina as a more usable and robust and longer legged car.  That would make quite a pair.

David

Seriously.......3 Lancias buried? I shudder to think whats left of them by now!

Would make for an interesting "forum" day out.

Don't worry, I keep a stash of single malt for such occasions if such a cache of Lancias was ever unearthed

 ;D




P

A rather more extreme chop:

http://www.speedhunters.com/2013/10/supra-powered-lancia-behind-build/

http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/09/floored-by-a-fuorilegge-the-lowline-lancia/

And the B20 on the side bar.....must say, its rather...........fetching in menacing black and naked wheel hubs, as for whats under the bonnet........?!??!??!


P

http://www.thornleykelham.com/gallery/1951-mille-miglia-lancia-aurelia-b20gt-series-1/#ad-image-7

So how closely do the "chopped' B20s by TK follow the Bracco/Lancia modifications/changes etc?


P

Re Speedhunter's Delta, that really is pointless! There's virtually nothing left of the Evo so why trash it? You could have put almost any body on that spaceframe chasis. Why not a Supra body for heaven's sake?

It only needs to appeal to one person.

I 'lowered' the roof on my Aurelia some time ago... wasn't entirely happy with results though !  :'(

Very Droll Kevin ;D

Brian
8227 8)

"I've noticed over the past 10 years that an increasing number of the UK's Fulvia coupes have some kind of 'competition car' modifications: black bonnet, wheelarch extensions, stickers, etc. etc. I think that's a shame, but never thought the same would happen to the B20.

Your chopped B20 might look cool but it will offend the sensibilities of every kind of old-car purist, and purism is the way that market sentiment and pricing are going. So the 'why' is quite hard to fathom."

This is my favourite quote from the chopped B20 debate and as an example of an elitist , snobbish comment it would be hard to beat. When people start using phrases like 'market sentiment ' you know they've lost the plot and have forgotten how to enjoy their old cars, focusing instead on preserving the value of their 'investment'.
 I speak as one of the great unwashed currently modifying a Fulvia coupe which is an extremely enjoyable exercise and has taught me much about what made the clever guys at Lancia tick. I really couldn't give a toss about market sentiment but there again, I'm the type of bloke who thinks the chopped B20 looks absolutely beautiful.

With you all the way Rob!! Save for my very tatty French Delta all my Lancias are modified in some way or other. Even my Aprilia (when I had it) had additional instrumentation .... as you say to enjoy something it has to be personal.

Yes - in the same way that it's impossible that 1/12th of the world's population share the same horoscope every day, so it is impossible for a manufacturer to make a car that suits every single person. You start with a base that you like, in that same way that you adapt your house to suit. When I bought my Fulvia it had a black bonnet (now red), wheelarch extensions (still there) and alloy bonnet. The seats have changed for the very reason that after my first few sprints and hillclimbs I was fed up sliding from one side of the car to the other. I then set out over time to make it a nice light nimble car by adding the rest of the panels and plexi windows. It had new sills at one point and some floor panels and some new paint. If anything I would say it's a better, sounder car now than the day I bought it. Plus it's all easily reversible.

I wondered whether to ignore this, but (perhaps foolishly) have decided not to...

It's one thing to say you prefer cars to be original (as I did, re Fulvias in my comment quoted above), another to throw around judgements about the personality ("elitist", "snobbish", "lost the plot") of a fellow forum member.

My observation about market sentiment was supposed to be about where the money is going, not my attitude to my cars. I presume that TK's 'outlaw' B20s will be fairly expensive, and I am fairly sure that most people who spend £150k (my guess at TK's price) on a 'restomod' (in US parlance) will spare some thought to what it will be worth 5 years down the line. In my book that doesn't necessarily mean they are not real enthusiasts.

I do believe in the 'it's your car you can do what you want with it' philosophy up to a point, but I also think that the historical aspects of our hobby are important, and RobD's interest in "what made the clever guys at Lancia tick" suggests to me that we might agree a bit on this.

Cars that have not been modified offer a much more direct route back to the people who designed and built them than a modified (or even rebuilt as original) car does. As time goes by, originality is becoming more prized and I applaud this. As an enthusiast.

Quite right William.
But I suspect TKs price is higher and then that has to be added to the purchase price  of the car. Although of course one can now buy a complete remanufactured B20 bodyshell from Poland so why not use these instead of destroying (modifying?) an original one.
Chris

There's a difference between doing one-off as an exercise, and doing a run of them. One is just-to-see, and perhaps is justifiable (although not to my taste, it is interesting to see). A run of them is another matter, and raises the question of how we value originality (or not).

 

As always, you pay your money and take your choice. If there are customers willing to pay very substantial sums of money to buy these conversions then there is a lucrative market made up of people who value something other than originality.

Are there enough standard B20s out there and is this run of conversions going to critically endanger the surviving pool of original cars? Also if original B20s become  valuable enough may not somebody in the future convert them back again. They won't be truly "original" but then is any major restoration ever so?

Should we be adding transistorised ignition to our Fulvias.............

I doubt the "originality" and "modify" camps will ever be reconciled.

Frank T

.          Out of interest, who sells remanufactures B20 bodyshells?

Not found out who yet, but on their forum, a 2013 post stated there was only one B20 in Poland.


P

With prices for good B20s now firmly above £100k I expect to see examples of completely new bodyshelled cars with chassis plates from long scrapped B20s start to appear from time to time. Exactly as happened with B24 Spiders about 10 years ago when their prices broke through the same threshold.
I have certainly seen one dodgy B24 Spider a few years ago.
Chris

I would like to see the dodgy spider. Is it a case of rebodying a refurbished and modified original floorpan?

In reply to William's perfectly reasonable riposte I would add a further comment about the current obsession about originality within the world of old vehicles. Very few old vehicles retain their original upholstery and paintwork and I would concede those which do provide a useful reference point for restorers and it's good to see them being preserved in more or less original form by enthusiastic owners.
But there's a less healthy aspect to this side to the old car movement, one which is driven to a degree by the auction houses where highly original vehicles are prized by acquisitive owners who purchase these cars for prices often far beyond the realms of common sense and the cars end up as part of an investment portfolio. The escalation of price often pushes the cars beyond the grasp of genuine enthusiasts who want to actually use the cars.
As values rise the cars often get used cars less and less and its consumption consumption of consumables goes down. This has a detrimental affect on the marque specialists whose bread and butter sales of service items such as bearings and seals starts to decrease and interest in supporting the marque starts to wane ultimately making parts hard to get hold of and more expensive. It's a downward spiral.
So , I'd rather see a B20 with its roof chopped off getting used and enjoyed by an owner who simply wants to enjoy it rather than watch B20s and such like being squirreled away by people who care more about a car's potential value than the driving pleasure it can provide.

This is a dodgy Spider:  http://www.rmsothebys.com/mo11/monterey/lots/1954-lancia-aurelia-b24-spider-america/1057402

Sold in the UK at a regional auction as a project, with Omircon clearly stating the the car had been re-bodied in aluminum. Purchased by someone in Central America who had been involved in defrauding a billionaire over teak plantations, but now wanted to get into the restoration business. Car was heinously restored. Somehow this person was allowed to craft his own bogus auction catalog listing - the resulting fracas ensured the creation of a new department for research at this auction house. You can guess why this car appeared back at auction last year - and your guess would be correct. You can also guess why, when correctly described, it did not sell. You have a possibly original chassis here, with a repro body in non-original metal type, with almost most corrupted restoration I have seen on a Spider since the early 1980s. This metalwork was apparently done in the UK in the 1980s - what is possible now can be imagined.

There is at least one B24 Convertible which was totally reconstructed out of perhaps a 10% salvageable body shell discovered near Trieste, the work was done in "Northern Europe". In 2007 when I saw this and pointed out publicly that the car was a replica, I was castigated online by loyalists of this shop who insisted that the car was original, despite being 90% new.

There are at least several people in Europe capable of completely re-creating an Aurelia B24 or B20 now. I have no problem with these "outlaws", but why destroy an original car in reasonably solid condition? Someone with enough money to pay for this, and a clear view of the capabilities now existing would be much better served to just build a new bodyshell. The mechanical parts are available, I have seven B20 and B24 motor "cores" sitting in my garage at the moment, all of which would love to be repurposed in this way. And Flaminia engines and transaxles are even easier to source.

This is something like taking an original Rodin bronze and "improving" it for your own pleasure. Why would you ever do that, as opposed to recasting it, which is routinely done? Makes absolutely no sense.

RobD - You would rather see the original Rodin bronze modified by current day artisans - an arm cut off and another leg or two attached - to match the whims and aesthetic tastes of a wealthy collector right now, rather than being hidden in a museum basement for the next fifty years, and eventually pulled out to be exhibited in its original form the next generation of enthusiasts - of whom there will assuredly be many?

There is nothing illegal in doing this - it is just in poor taste, and very short-sighted - in my opinion.

Hasn't the classic car racing world already dealt with this by specifying how much of a car can be remade with contemporary materials and techniques whilst still qualifying as "original"?

I can see RobD's point of view but you can't fight the market.

Frank T

As far as the NHS and our school is concerned I'm very much trying to fight "the market".

Back to cars:

Are we in the UK ready for "listed status" as with buildings?   I've never got my head all the way round the ASI stuff from Italy, or why several European countries (and Australia?) don't have modified cars at all.

I speak as an ex-Aurelia modifier, Austin 7 special builder, owner of (laid up) rally prepared MG Midget (it was me) and custodian of (a very poorly) Strada Abarth believed to have been a GpN rally car from new.

Hot rods do it for me, I even appreciate all the modern MaxPower stuff...

David

Although now moving away from roof chopping, there was a very interesting article recently on Veloce Today. It was a review of a book where the author had pretty much traced every hot rod Ferrari in the US. By that I mean Ferraris raced in the US in the 50's and needing engine repairs. Apparently back then you were pretty much on your own as a private US racer as far as Enzo Ferrari was concerned. So many had US V8 transplants to keep them racing. The author was saying without this, many (now) multi-million dollar Ferraris would have seen the scrap heap. A fair few have been reunited with their original engines over the years but the remainder have a certain value in themselves as a piece of make do and mend US racing history.

What is the book's title? I can't see the article. Maybe for subscribers only?

There you are Richard - this should take you to the article

http://www.velocetoday.com/thoughts-on-ford-and-chev-engine-in-ferraris/

I can remember that - and wanting some of them to keep their V8s.

It goes with the generic comment that "use is preservation".  Those "museum vaults" for restoration projects are few and far between, hence the excitement at "barn finds".

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Aurelia-B20-coupe-1950s-memorabilia-literature-log-book-classic-car-/351589931483?hash=item51dc6499db:g:9AoAAOSwcBhWWFE4
So this is how 'new' fake B20s will start to appear. Alternatively, the registration data could be used for an outlaw version using a totally new bodyshell.
This seller has several cancelled buff log books for sale.

By the way the most recent fake B24 Spider I have seen was a red one in Italy 4 or so years ago. I came to the conclusion it used a shortened 4th Series B20 floorpan I recall.
No connection to the seller above whatsoever.
Chris

Chris - yes I went to drive that car for a friend who was interested. It had come in two sections from a New Jersey junkyard in the 1980s, and was clearly put back together with something else - though the basis was an original car. Not sure you would call it a replica exactly. But, it was a mess. Great to drive through.

If we are thinking of the same car. The last time I saw it was at Technoclassica in Essen, a year later.

There was also a completely dodgy RHD car which appeared in Italy, also red, but completely disassembled. No direct contact with that car, but it looked wrong from the images. I could be incorrect though.

This is where provenance starts to come in. Once cars are valuable enough purchasers will want an authenticated history before parting with their cash.

Frank T