Lancia Motor Club

   I bought a very respectable Dedra 2litre Automatic earlier this year---a well looked after car with only one owner until a couple of years ago---and it has been giving excellent service up until this week. She sailed up to the NEC the week before last and took me to Bristol and back last week with no problems although I have had to be careful when starting from cold as she will not idle straight away without a little bit if throttle.
   However on Wednesday last I messed up the start procedure  ie she started but then stopped again, and then would not restart despite repeated and prolonged attempts.In times gone by I would have assumed I had flooded her though I am unsure if that can happen with electronic ignition and fuel injection.Anyway I was fairly confident something like that had occurred and that after cleaning the plugs and recharging the battery (although it was far from flat!) all would be well.
   I was wrong.
   The weather has been exceedingly damp (the car is outside unfortunately) so I have now thoroughly cleaned the plugs,leads distributor cap,and coil but she still will not go!! Every few revs she does fire (enough to make you think she is going to go) but immediately dies again. I finally organised an assistant to turn the key while I checked for sparks today and first time around,direct from the coil,there was nothing.The plug-in connectors in the ignition circuit all look clean but after a wiggle on them an intermittent spark appeared but the car still would not start. 
   It would be illogical for anything to have failed while the car has been idle so I suspect the damp weather has maybe affected an earth connection somewhere.
   So if anyone is still with me after this diatribe can they suggest what my next move should be? I would be exceedingly greatful!
                 Ben

Hi Ben

It has occurred to me that my Dedra would not fire up once upon a time, and after speaking to Tanc Barratt he said to locate a small black plastic cover on the bulkhead. Beneath this cover are two identical relays, simply swapping the relays over cured the starting problem and a new replacement was purchased. Hopefully, this may work for you. My other thought is that you may have a dodgy idle sensor.

Let us know how you get on.

See you at the Chrismas get together

Regards

Ian

Ben,
Check the battery earth lead as these cause all sorts of problem when they are old and haven't been changed,the coil module. can also fail without any warning,
I've still got all my Dedra Manuals including the ones for the automatic, for some reason I owned 2 Automatic Dedra's and considering I swore after the first one I'd never have another, I must have had some sort of mental abberation when I bought the second, my least favourite Dedra, due to the VW auto gearbox and abysmal fuel consumption compared to the manual cars, although in all other respects they were lovely cars, as are all Dedra.
One other thing springs to mind is the idle control valve, these can get a bit mucky and won't open the valve to increase the cold idling speed, they can also stick causing a very high idle speed when hot!
Please give me a ring if I can help further.

Brian
8227 8)

Thanks for the responses Ian/Brian

I checked the two relays under the black plastic cover and they are both still in good working order though I noted they are not identical,one being a two-way switch and the other a simple on/off with two outlets.

I have also stripped and cleaned the main battery earth connection to the body and the multiple earth connection on the opposite side of the engine bay below the plastic header tank.

Also fellow club member Terry has helped out by loaning me the ignition components from his spares car.I have now swapped over the  distributor (hall effect pick-up) and the coil with the control module with in both cases no benefit.

This has left only the crankshaft sensor as a first-order possible culprit. Unfortunately the one from Terry's car was already gone so I have taken a flyer and ordered one from the internet.
My search showed the same unit is used on some Ducatti motorcycles and genuine Magneti Marelli ones are available for about £50.
However I have opted for one from Latvia(!) for £15 +P&P as I am not totally convinced there is anything wrong with the one I have removed.(It is a SEN 8I and it's resistance measures about 670 ohms--does anyone know what it should be?)

So for the time being the car is still a Dead Dedra. May-be I should just stick with the Aprilia which is going well again after a brief carburettor issue---I had fitted it with a torn gasket and it would only run with the choke out!!

Ben

Ben,
Did you try cleaning the idle control valve?
one other thing that comes to mind, just forward of the O/S Rear wheel bucked tucked up behind a shield is a canister fuel filter, often this doesn't get changed and will eventually clog up so no fuel getting through, another one worth looking at is the throttle switch mounted on the inlet manifold Casting.
Is the crankshaft pulley actually turning the cambelt? it might be worth releasing the top of the cambelt cover and checking that you haven't stripped the teeth off the cambelt, this once happened to me with a 16v Thema, no drama at all and I just coasted to a stop, eventually I found a pile of wedges of cambelt belt teeth and a blank piece of the cambelt, unfortunately I also found 8 bent valves.
Sorry but I can't check if I have the Crankshaft sensor values, as my Dedra Manuals are out on loan at present.
Brian
8227 8)

Ben I have sent you an email with a link for the ECU diagnostics. Unfortunately it would seem your ohm reading is correct!!

Tim

My Prisma i.e. did not want to idle until a bit warmed up (not much). Found the Idle control valve gummed shut (thanks Brian)..... Having freed it off the engine started from cold and idled at 3000 rpm. Pulling the connector off the valve dropped it to a normal 850rpm. Trying to see what the volts were I found 12v so put the connector back on and engine raced again to 3000. Guess I am going to have to wait till the engine is cold again and have another go. Meanwhile the valve is sitting in some oil to try to ensure it is lubed after a lot of penetrating oil to free the airway piston.....I suspect the ECU output has failed through driving the solenoid while seized....Any other ideas welcome.

Update on Prisma. After further electrical tests I put it all back together and it runs as "normal" ie starts from cold and tickover settles to 930 after temp gauge get near to normal.....So it seems to have cured itself of yesterdays hysterics...

 

You do know it is hiding and waiting for the most inconvenient time to happen again......

Peter

When it does I know what to do - just pull the plug on the idle solenoid....

All this reminds me of my Thema , It would not start with the new battery I bought , it seems that I bought a bit of a dud . I went and got my money back and bought a Yausa battery  at nearly twice the price of the other one . problem solved  !  it now starts first time every time . I had another problem a couple of years ago , the earth lead on the digiplex was a bit loose , it stopped completely one  day and after a bit of wriggling under the bonnet it started again !  ???. The earths are all together low down in the front panel where they get wet and corroded . Try taking the earth from the digiplex and fixing it to something solid at the top of the inner wing , or test the earth with a meter . You can test the top dead center sensor by disconnecting it at the top of the engine at its plug ( a white lead )and set your meter to twelve volts and turn the engine over you should get a reading as the pully cranks over .  I was lucky my problem was the earth , simple but I had to find it  ??? . thanks David.

I am looking forward to reporting that my problem was a trivial one that has now got fixed or just gone away but unhappily I have not yet reached that point.

Since my last update I have checked the idle bye-pass valve which I found to be nice and clean and moving freely and with the ignition on it clicks to and fro as the feed plug is connected and disconnected as one would expect.

Also as of yesterday evening Terry lent me the main ECU from his spares car but it turns out that my unit is the Weber Marelli  (IAW 04J/01  WH4J.P8/PIE.AN)and Terry's is a Bosh unit (0 265 100 042).It has the same 35 pin plug but is a smaller chunkier unit. Now I don't feel I can risk trying it in case it is not compatible and it could get damaged. Do the code numbers mean anything to anybody?

Thanks for the tip for checking the crank sensor Dave.I am still waiting for the one I have ordered from Latvia so if I do the check tomorrow and my existing one is ok (as I suspect) I will not have that hope to cling to!!

Not sure where to go next but I would be keen to have a look at the particular wiring diagram for the automatic variant if/when you get it back Brian.

Regards from an increasingly despondent
                                                         Ben                     

Ben,
The Automatic wiring is in the seperate Auto Manual, I'll have a look in my files and see if I scannned the manual, sometime since I had my autos and I may well have done so, are you going to Brooklands for the New Years Day Meeting? if so I'll bring all the auto information along, and if I haven't scanned the manual you can borrow the originals, I'd say I'd post them but I'm very wary of doing so this time of year!

Brian
8227 8)

Ben the weber marelli is for the i.e. versions on the engine and the bosch is for the 2.0l integrale version I think.

I would not risk it either. The WM diagnostics manual I sent you should shed some light on proceedings.....If you plow through it....

Also the club does have an electronic tester in a suitcase for hire.

This may help or not help ??? Years ago we had a hpe 2000ie, i had a similar problem, it used to cut out, i was told by Leo Capaldi that there is a fuse type connection up by the passenger side in the engine bay near the windscreen, I think it was either to do with the ignition or injection. I seem to remember that I replaced the fuse type connection with a new one and never had a problem, long shot i know but I am sure if you contact Leo he would remember what it was. Bear in mind this was over 20 years ago, so the old grey matter aint as good as it was  ;)

Hi there and a Merry Christmas to all you helpful souls out there.

As you might deduce from my lighthearted tone I think I have had a break-through.

My Latvian crank position sensor arrived this morning. The output voltage check on the original one was inconclusive so I installed the new one but the response when I tried to start the car was the same as before. Intermittent firing but failure to catch and run. Also it seemed as though the ignition was over advanced as it tried to kick back.
I decided to check the timing.I had put off doing this because being an automatic it is very difficult to manually turn the engine.Anyway having got No1 piston to TDC I removed the cam covers expecting to see either No1 or No4 valves on the rock and they were clearly not where they should be.
The only possible conclusion is that the timing belt has jumped a few teeth---presumably at the time of the original failure to start. It is not broken and looks ok but is a bit slack.I am just hoping that there has not been any valve to piston contact.

As I had bought a complete set of belts to fit anyway it should be all downhill from here!!

Watch this space.
                             Ben

Just goes to show - I'm thinking earths and sensors and its something really fundamental. 

Might still be earths and sensors AS WELL, but ALWAYS got to start with the basics...

Ben,
Pleased to hear that the end might be in sight, although the belt isn't broken I wouldn't be surprised if you find the belt has a bare section with missing teeth as it sounds pretty much the same what happened to my Thema as I said in an earlier post, keeping fingers crossed for no valve damage.

Your mishapreminds me that when I bought my second auto it wasn't clear if the belts had been changed so I booked her in to have the belts and idler bearings done, half way to my garage (about 14 miles) the engine died with a smell of burning rubber, I manage to coast it into a layby and found that the counterbalance belt had come of, in the process it had immediatly got tangled up with the crankshaft sensor which snapped off, instanly killing the engine, but it was quick enough to stop the vavles getting bent, so while it cost me to have the head pulled to change the head gasket which was leaking oil at the front right corner (common) , I didn't have the extra expense of replacing bent valves.

Brian
8227 8)

Hi Brian, slightly off topic. I purchased a beautiful, low mileage, Gamma. Collected it on the Saturday and it was booked in to have belt changed and a service the following Monday. Couldn't resist a ten mile spin on a sunny Sunday morning. You can guess what happened next.

OH Dear :( Very much damage?

Brian
8227 8)

How did it run on one bank Peter???? Have you joined the Consortium to get your valves etc. There are 2 diameters of valve I believe. The club the the locking pins for doing a gamma belt change but some suitable grooved 10mm rod/M17bolt will do the job....

The car is long sold. There is one locally I have my eye on.

peter you have been Lancialess for too long......

I Know. I know.

   As this thread has drifted off into reminiscences of broken belts generally I have posted my final chapter of the story under a new more positive title. (I have now suffered broken or slipped belts on a Gamma, a Prisma,and a Y10 as well as the current episode!)
   My Dedra belt was very slack but had no teeth missing and actually was apparently in good condition as was the balance shaft belt. I guess it must have stretched to have become slack enough to jump teeth.
   Also there does not appear to have been any valve to piston contact.

   With hindsight I now realise that the reason I got strange results when I did the basic checks for sparks (and was therefore sure I had an ignition failure of some sort) was because the inputs to the ECU from the crank sensor and the hall effect probe in the distributor were out of step (due to the distributor being driven from the end of the exhaust camshaft).
   As somebody has already said-----You live and learn!!