Lancia Motor Club

I can't start my thema 16v i have never had a problem starting the car before. A couple of weeks ago it started to require a fair fiew cranks of the starter to get it going, It slowly got worse and yesterday refused to start at all. Could it be plugs or failure of a component ? Thanks david 8228. ::)

Dave, one point to check is the TDC sensor down by the crankshaft pulley, make sure that hasn't shifted.

Brian
8227 8)

Dave, check the earthing points below the front headlamps, AND your spark plug ignition leads.  I know the latter may seem obvious, but they look fine, but maye be useless.  I speak from personal experience....  :P

Regards,

Does it still crank? I'm not clear from your posting about what the symtoms are? Not wishing to insult your intelligence, but if it ain't turning over then it sounds like a dying / dead battery.

First move is to determine if it is a lack of spark at the plugs or a lack of fuel problem. Then we can narrow this down.

If it is cranking over, but not firing then the TDC sensor is a likely culprit, but these tend to go suddenly without any detectable deterioation prior to failure. They either work or they don't so your gradual onset of a problem makes me less sure of the TDC being the issue.

I think you can probably rule out HT leads as you would most likely have had a noticeable misfire prior to that.

Can you hear the fuel pump buzzing? With the ignition on, is fuel pumped out when you disconnect the fuel hose into the fuel feed to the injectors?

It might be the Air Bypass Valve stuck shut. If you remove the valve (situated above the thermostat body on the RHS of the engine) you should see light through it when cold.

A chronic air leak might also be the problem. Check the large diameter rubber pipe from the Air flow meter to the throttle body. Look for slpits at the points where smaller pipes are attached. Also check the small rubber pipe underneath the throttle body that feeds in from the crankcase breather pipe. This small pipe is prone to perishing with the result that idling goes all to pot. Not known these to cause a car to complete fail to catch though.

Oh its cranky enough alright but mainly its jealous of the Fulvia parked beside it that you've been fondling and fiddling with every every day for the last two months instead of fettling your faithful Thema. It warned you this was coming but you ignored it and carried on with your new obsession - no wonder it won't start now. And it knows you have another Thema affair hidden away where you think it doesn't know ... and its worried about the little Ypsilon that you gave away to the gypsies to make room for the Fulvia on your driveway ....

That's it!!!  ;D

Ok for starters the Thema is a He not A She, He doesen't get jealous of other cars if so he was a She She would have refused not to co-operate long ago.  There are many other cars in my life at the moment, a lot have come and gone during our ten year relationship but he has parked beside me all this time giving relyable service . Do you think he is jealous of the pretty fulvia ? I better keep a close eye on him as the Fulvia is a She ! We don't want a load of Themlvia' driving around now do we !  :D. Oh !!! where is this going !! Anyway, The thema has been checked for splits in the rubber air feed to the air flow meter, The engine cranks no problem,I think it might be the fuel pump, it got a bit noisey over the past couple of months . I still have to test the Tdc sender on the fly wheel and the fuel filter ect. I had a problem a couple of years ago with the earth in the digiplex when the car shut down for no reason and after wiiggling a few wires it came back to life, I made new earths for the front of the car .  I don't think this is the problem though, I might get an hour this evening to have a look at it. Is there much pressure in the pump, I will have a go at removing the feed to the manifold and gheck visually the flow. I dont want do drown myself with petrol though. I suspect this might be the problem as my brothers Ford Focus did a very similar thing a couple of weeks ago. Thanks. David.

The fuel pump can be checked quiet easily and the flow is not so rapid that you can't catch it in a jam jar. Just get someone else to switch it on / off whilst you stand-by with the jam jar having a fag...

A problem that I've had with Themas as they get older is that the rubber pipe in the fuel tank perishes and you start to suck air through the pipe instead of fuel. This problem usually starts to be noticeable as a stutter when accelerating hard or can be detected when on long fast corners as the fuel pump is mounted on a flexible bracket in the tank and it can therefore bend and open up cracks in the pipe under centrifugal forces during fast bends.

I wrote a feature ion this for teh Thema Consortium newsletter. If you send me a PM I can probably dig out a copy of the feature on how to replace the pipe. Do note that you need a special type of rubber for use in petrol as ordinary coolant type pipes will just soften and turn to gunk in your petrol tank... not good!

BTW.. totally agree. A Thema is most definitely a HE!

Dave,
When was the last time you changed the canister fuel filter? being it sits right up under the spare wheel well it tends to get overlooked, and if it is blocked can cause running problems.
Brian
8227 8)

Thank's for all the advice, I put the battery on charge last night and this evening before commencing any of the tests I tutned it over and HE started !!!!! . this has me stumped, I wonder if there is not enough power to run the starter and the brain at the same time ? The battery was replaced last June with a new one after the old one was on it's last legs. I did not t know that there is a filter beside the spare wheel well. I have ordered a filter for the one in the engine bay and a new set of plugs and belts and oil and filter and the list goes on . So a full service is on the cards for some time next week. Thanks, David. :)

I wonder if the low voltage / current maybe tripped the Immobiliser. Dying batteries can cause all sorts of weird glitches with immobilisers.

Dave,
I had 2 series 3 Thema's so I was assuming the 1's & 2's were the same, but if you've got a canister filter under the bonnet there won't be another.
Brian
8227 8)

There is no alarm fitted to the car, I removed it when I bought it ten years ago, somthing like that would be a drain on the battery. The dam thing cranked quite well. Would the starter motor be on the way out ? I know the solinoid gets stuck and I have a re-conditioned one ready to fit. Maybe the starter is sapping to much power I know that the digiplex needs 12v to work or it wont switch on. The mind boggles !  :)

Seems strange to me... I don't think the digiplex is that sensitive. I'd check the spec of your battery and make sure its correct for the car. I had issues with a battery that was fitted to my V6 that delivered about 90% of the cranking power specified in the manual. It worked most of the time, but when hot or after too many short runs it would sometimes play up.

I had similar issues after leaving the Thema static for 2 weeks in the winter (He lives outside cos he's tough!). Fitted a new rotor arm, dizzy and plugs and hey presto he came back to life and now idles like text book (before the new parts he would surge from time to time at idle).

Of course this is a PRV engine Thema so it still has a dizzy, but testing the battery also revealed that the starter motor was pulling almost 200 A and the battery was only generating 285 A so the spark was very weak at the plugs.

It might be time to renew some parts of your ignition circuit.

Yes I reckon the starter motor could be the problem it's a bit weak and the bendix fails on the first turn, I reckon the motor is drawing too much power and not leaving enough to give a strong spark. I had a starter re-conditioned and it's ready to fit. When the weather gets a bit warmer I 'll have a go at fitting it and we'll see if there is any improvement. Thanks. David.

I got to the root of the problem !!! Horray!!!! when the car was left for a while with the battery turned off with a knob type switch connected to the battery terminal it struggled to turn over when I turned the switch on. Last week the same problem, I put the charger on and it made no difference, this made me suspicious of the battery leads. I checked the connections and found the earth lead that connects to the gearbox casing corroded. I removed the lead , cleaned the gearbox with a wire brush and replaced the lead with a new one I think intended for a diesel as it is a lot heavier . When all was connected the car started with no problem , on the button like it should. Thanks for all the advise. David.  ;D

Dave,
Pleased you've got it sorted, I should have spotted that as it was a common failing on Dedra and would often throw up all sort of unrelated electrical problems that didn't seem to have a common cause, but changing the battery lead cured them all.
Funny enough I was having a look at a friends Fulvia that is just back on the road after a lot of bodywork over the last 5 years, he was complaining about the starter motor turning over slowly, when I had a look I found the power lead from the battery to the starter was badly corroded with only about a dozen strands of copper wire left, even cutting the outer back still revealed corrosion, but it has cleaned up enough until he can replace it.

Brian
8227 8)

Brian, How many times has a bad earth caused electrical problems in a Lancia,  ???At this stage we should be a lot wiser , especially me , I have been driving Lancias for over 30 yrs at this stage.  ::)