Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: kernow on 08 May, 2012, 08:00:16 PM



Title: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 08 May, 2012, 08:00:16 PM
I can't believe it's a year since buying the Fulvia Sport, but FINALLY have the car back home, a glorious (and sunny) 30 minute run along the coast road from Graham Eddy Motori in Penzance, where the car has been. After all these months of slow but steady progress I'm hoping I'm nearly there.  

A few issues - back brakes are binding (hopefully they'll free up with use), seemed to be a bit of steam/overflow from radiator valve (but I'm assuming could be the seal in the radiator cap as the temp gauge reads normal and the fan doesn't kick on). Oil pressure gauge reads a little on the low side I think. I have a list, but nothing compared to what's already done!

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: lancialulu on 08 May, 2012, 09:29:32 PM
oil pressure should be over 50% (more like 70%) at 4500 but below 2,000 it probably will not read much when hot.

On the rad fan make sure it works by fast idle for 10 mins or so to get the car hot enough to trip the rad mounted switch.

Tim


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 08 May, 2012, 10:00:12 PM
Thanks Tim,

The fan definitely kicks in when hot. After the run home was some hissing for a couple of minutes and a little steam/water seemed to be coming from the little radiator pipe that runs down to the bottom of the engine from the cap. Oil pressure was one thing that concerned me as it reads above 50 if revving, more like 30 to 40 on the gauge if cruising at 3 - 4k revs. Wondered if the gauge might be out, all the others are. Bearing in mind they haven't been used for 20 years.

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: roddy on 08 May, 2012, 11:13:31 PM
Hello Chris

Hope you will enjoy driving the Fulvia Sport for many years to come.  Best establish where the rear brakes are binding - support the rear axle and take the wheels off, and look and listen. If it is the calipers that have gone sticky with lying unused, they might free off themselves, but it might be worth bleeding the brake fluid at each side just to get clean fluid to the seals.  However it might be that the handbrake mechanism is not releasing properly or evenly. All that might mean is that the brake shoe lining will wear away!

If the engine is not in the first flush of youth, there is no harm in using a 15W/50 grade of oil in the 1300. Preferably semi-synthetic or full synthetic. That viscosity should give the sort of figures that Tim writes about.

The radiator header tank is also the expansion tank, so keep the coolant level about .5" below the bottom of the filler neck.  Try running the engine with the radiator cap off, and carefully looking at what the coolant is doing.  If you are getting great gulps of air coming to the surface and out the filler neck, it might mean that the head gasket is weeping combustion into the water jacket.  If however, you are getting a milky/white foam appearing in the coolant, then it is possibly the remains of some oil in the water jacket that creates cavitation at the water pump impeller.  This can be purged by using rad flush or similar.  Both symptoms can cause the weeping and steam from the overflow pipe.  Don't be tempted to use a pressure cap with a higher than .5 bar (7psi) spring (the figure should be shown somewhere on the cap) - you could just blow the heater matrix instead!

Regards - Roddy


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 08 May, 2012, 11:29:31 PM
I'd agree with Roddy about leaving the gap at the header tank, when we went to Portugal I was topping my 2c up every morning until it dawned on me ::) that it was just returning itself to the correct level everytime after I'd filled it to near the top, after that, no more topping up, and no further loss of coolant.
Congratulations, she looks lovely and well worth the effort.

brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: lancialulu on 09 May, 2012, 08:32:52 AM
Thanks Tim,

The fan definitely kicks in when hot. After the run home was some hissing for a couple of minutes and a little steam/water seemed to be coming from the little radiator pipe that runs down to the bottom of the engine from the cap. Oil pressure was one thing that concerned me as it reads above 50 if revving, more like 30 to 40 on the gauge if cruising at 3 - 4k revs. Wondered if the gauge might be out, all the others are. Bearing in mind they haven't been used for 20 years.

Chris

Chris

You will probably have Veglia instruments in which case I would believe the oil but the temperature ones always run low - unlike the Jaegers. You should check the transducer as it may have been changed (unlikely) but if it has it could be a 10:1 unit as opposed to 8:1 (somebody correct me if it should be a different ratio). In which case you would get the wrong reading. When the engine is still "cold" do you full scale with more than 4000? if not you have a problem of reading or oil or mechanical. I had a fulvia that had a poor oil pick up (one of Fulvia engine's few weaknesses) that gave a low reading, and I had a big end start to go which also dropped the oil pressure a bit, but you could hear something as well!!

I use Castrol 10-60 sport fully sythetic and change every 5000 miles.

Re brakes - as Roddy says this needs attention in case it is the handbrake which is susceptible to corrosion in various places including in the hub where the shoes are. Other than that you need to whip the caliper off and free any stuck pistons by pushing them home and pressing on the brake pedal making sure they dont pop out!. Changing the brake fluid through out is also valuable but best if you dont let the old fluid run right out before new as Fulvias can be a tease to bleed if the master cylinder is empty.

Tim

Tim


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: stanley sweet on 09 May, 2012, 09:25:33 AM
Very nice. I still miss the ex-Richard Fridd Zagato I had but it had to go because I didn't have the space to garage it here. Aaah, the days when someone like Ercole Spada sat down with a pencil and paper and not a computer. The comments about oil choice are interesting. I've always used 10/40 in mine changed every 3000 miles. At cold start up it goes to the top of the scale. Running hot it's around 35/50 at cruising speed (I have the gauge marked 0/35/70). At hot idle it registers zero! I've always thought if I were a prospective buyer I would walk away but it's been like this for 19 years now and there isn't a wisp of blue smoke or ominous knocking so it's just the gauge. Actually - I say zero, but the needle itself is thick enough to be indicating some pressure. Many years ago I ran wires from the fan to a switch on the dash. I feel better using it manually rather than hoping it cuts in. I think I only ever switch it on when it's being MOT tested and it will be sitting on rollers etc running for some time.


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: lancialulu on 09 May, 2012, 11:06:29 AM
Many years ago I ran wires from the fan to a switch on the dash. I feel better using it manually rather than hoping it cuts in. I think I only ever switch it on when it's being MOT tested and it will be sitting on rollers etc running for some time.

My sport uses one of the dash switches to parallel up the rad switch so you get a manual override (on) and also it tells me when the fan cuts in as the switch warning light comes on as if the switch had been operated. My car has a lot of sound deadening and the fan is quite quiet so it cannot be heard from within the cockpit (as it should be....)

Tim


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 09 May, 2012, 11:52:26 AM
Thanks for all the thoughts and feedback. Re brakes I'll check out the handbrake. Had the calipers rebuilt but that was near the start of the re commissioning (probably 10 months ago now) so my initial thoughts were they might free up.

The oil pressure is a slight worry as every other car I've had it always sits dead in middle at cruising speeds. It has 10 40 oil in at the moment, no untoward noises or smoke. Has had two oil changes - one before we got her running and another after a couple of test runs and an MOT.

I did wire in an auxiliary switch in my Fiat 130, but that was because 130's always got hot very quickly in traffic - do you think the FSZ needs one?

Roddy, thanks for the advice re the radiator - I'll check the level to make sure it isn't over filled. It has had a reconditioned rad fitted recently.

As this is the first Fulvia I've had, can I ask about the throttle linkage. Seems a little on-off compared with the Giulia I had which had a lot smoother feed in. Is this a set up issue or normal?

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: nistri on 09 May, 2012, 01:01:56 PM
Hi Chris,
Congratulations for the very nice Zagato: I have one very similar to yours.

The advice you got is very good. I would just add a ccouple of odd comments.

Brakes: I guess your car is an S2 model. Check that the brake limiter valve is not incorrectly set up as otherwise it will not allow brake fluid flow to the rear calipers. Also check that the rear pads can freely move in and out of the calipers. Some aftermarket pads are slightly oversize and need careful filing (in an alcohol solution).

Oil pressure: it would be a good idea to do an independent measurement with a pressure gauge when the oil is hot. This can help to put one's mind at rest. The snag is that it can be a messy job as the oil filter has to be removed to fit the pipeline to the base of the filter which then has to be refitted, of course. The measurement takes 5 minutes, no more.

Rad cap: the original pressure rating was 0.25 bar (very difficult to find nowadays). I agree that 0.5 bar is the maximum.

Rad fan: very, very simple to find out if it works. Just put a small screwdriver across the two terminals on the sensor and the fan comes on if it works. On some cars the ignition should be on depending on the wiring. I advise to do this check every time the car is serviced.

The throttle linkage should have smooth operation. Check it is not binding somewhere, especially in the engine bay. Also note that, particularly on Zagatos, the cable may be somewhat compressed inside the hole through which it enters the engine bay. It is easy to relieve this pressure.

Good luck
Andrea


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: dhla40 on 09 May, 2012, 01:17:48 PM
After driving alfa's for many years I did find the fulvia throttle and clutch had a very different feel but put this down to them being cable actuated instead of rod and hydraulic. As with any car it is something you get used to and hopefully avoid too many kangaroo starts ;D

Sean


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: lancialulu on 09 May, 2012, 02:54:35 PM
Re throttle - check the organ stop pedal moves smoothly on the accelerator rod which has a small wheel that can get stuck a bit.

If you have had the rad rebuilt you should not have too many overheating problems, and similarly if the rear calipers have been rebuilt in the last year and the car has not been in a damp environment then they should not be sticking so look at the hand brake...


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: chriswgawne on 09 May, 2012, 03:21:50 PM
Chris,
Great to hear your Fulvia Sport is back on the road. Certainly here in Italy they are becoming quite sought after - good ones that is!
Andrea's suggestion is by far and away the best thing to do as you will then have a reading you can absolutely believe in. You can then (hopefully) stop worrying about it.
In the 70's, we had a lovely 1600 Fulvia Sport which had a very low oil pressure reading on the gauge, partic when hot - it wouldnt get to halfway no matter how high you revved it - and in the end I did what Andrea suggested. Reading on the Smiths gauge was still the same but the engine was quiet, went well and so I left well alone and ran it for around 25k miles more then sold it (MOR666L i think?).
Jacky's car is an early S1 with belt driven fan and about 25 years ago I put a well used 818.302 engine in it ( because the original 1200cc  was broken, I couldnt get the bits and I had this engine lying around).
I have just been for a good drive in her car -  it is 28 deg C here today - and her oil pressure when hot on a 0/35/70 gauge is at 35 @2,500rpm using a 10/40W synthetic oil (Halfords). There is a reading at tickover as well, albeit a low one.

Hope this helps.


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: chriswgawne on 09 May, 2012, 03:30:43 PM
Ooops!
Wrong Reg mark. MOR66L was a white 1600HF we owned in the 70's which I sprinted whilst our 1600 Fulvia Sport was LYX191K or LYX161K I recall. Memory fades with age I am afraid.
Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 09 May, 2012, 05:27:44 PM
Re throttle - check the organ stop pedal moves smoothly on the accelerator rod which has a small wheel that can get stuck a bit.

If you have had the rad rebuilt you should not have too many overheating problems, and similarly if the rear calipers have been rebuilt in the last year and the car has not been in a damp environment then they should not be sticking so look at the hand brake...
Further to Tim's comment re the throttle pedal, the small wheels x 2 can get sticky, so much so on my 2c that I had to pull the pedal back up with my toe, these were replaced by a pair of small roller bearings about 10-12 years ago, end of problem.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 09 May, 2012, 05:58:45 PM
Wow, thanks guys. So much great advice there. I've set up a list to work through as soon as it stops pouring with rain. Hard to believe yesterday I was driving home along the coast, not a cloud in the sky.

Was aiming to have the car finished for Stanford Hall, but not sure I'll have been able to get enough miles under my belt by then to take on that trip.

Cheers

Chris



Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: SteveGales on 09 May, 2012, 07:53:17 PM
Chris

The bush where the pedal arm pivots can also be changed for a roller bearing. There was an article in VL years ago about it , the size
and supplier were listed. I did this on my old coupe and it transformed the throttle action. Have since sold the car so can't check service
history for details. I can have a look back through old VL's to see if I can find the info if you would like me to.

Regards

Steve


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 11 May, 2012, 03:03:39 PM
Hi Steve,

I'm hopefully going to have the time to delve into a few of these issues this weekend so any advice on the roller bearing size would be great.

Cheers,

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: ColinMarr on 11 May, 2012, 04:56:37 PM
I agree with all these earlier comments about oil pressure. When hot there is hardly anything indicated on the gauge, but once the revs build up all seems OK the needle is just about visible in the photo below.

When I had a Flavia this was also true. It never happened to me, but there was a common story that because the timing chain tensioner was pressure-fed then with low pressure at tick-over there was a risk of the chain jumping a tooth and wrecking the engine. Can this be true I wonder, and if so, is it true for Fulvias too?

Colin


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: Richard Fridd on 11 May, 2012, 06:27:43 PM
Now that timing chains have been mentioned it springs  to mind that the chain oil feed nozzle can break off resulting in low oil pressure values all round.it is not unknown for some owners to  blank the oil feed remains with weld or screw accessing the oil feed by removing the front pulley.splash feed will then be the only lubrication.best regards richard


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: SteveGales on 11 May, 2012, 08:59:08 PM
Hi Chris

Managed to find the info on the needle roller bearing ( letters page, issue 440 Feb 2005).

10mm bore x 22mm outside dia x 20mm long. Supplier....Redhill Bearings , The White House, Brighton Rd, Handcross , RH17 6BZ
Tel no.01444 400900. I haven't checked to see if they are still in buisness but guess it would be available from any good bearing supplier.

I can't remember how I fitted it exactly but the letter mentions using a couple of washers, one either side . I know it was easy to push out the
old bush and press in the new bearing and it made a vast difference to the pedal action.

Regards

Steve


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: chriswgawne on 12 May, 2012, 06:12:34 AM
Richard,
You are correct about the chain oil feed nozzle breaking off resulting in lower oil pressure. I now remember this was found to be the reason for our 1600 Sport's low oil pressure and I therefore stopped worrying.
Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 12 May, 2012, 07:53:30 AM
Hi Chris

Managed to find the info on the needle roller bearing ( letters page, issue 440 Feb 2005).

10mm bore x 22mm outside dia x 20mm long. Supplier....Redhill Bearings , The White House, Brighton Rd, Handcross , RH17 6BZ
Tel no.01444 400900. I haven't checked to see if they are still in buisness but guess it would be available from any good bearing supplier.

I can't remember how I fitted it exactly but the letter mentions using a couple of washers, one either side . I know it was easy to push out the
old bush and press in the new bearing and it made a vast difference to the pedal action.

Regards

Steve


Not sure if this is the same article to which Steve refers but it shows the rollers for the pedal as well as the fix for another couple potential problems, my bearings came from Redhill as well but under part number NK110/20, back in 2006 these cost about 5.50 each + P&P. but I don't rember using anything else other than the new bearings and whatever there was with the old set up minus the nylon rollers.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 12 May, 2012, 08:47:23 AM
Cheers Guys, that's brilliant - and thanks for the pdf. I'm going to check out the bushes on the pedal this weekend. I know a bearings man.

Hi Colin, thanks for the image - the pressure gauge does fluctuate with revs, but if I were cruising at 4k revs the needle would only be about a third up the gauge, maybe 35 to 40. My old Alfa's would of typically read 55. Is there an easy way of checking the chain oil feed nozzle?

Thanks for all the advice - I thought when I bought the Fulvia there'd be a lot of "transferable skills/knowledge" - seems the two marques did things very differently. Have to say, and it's only on first impressions - I thought the Giulia was a great car but loved the feel and sound of the Fulvia even more (and don't get me started on the Zagato seats :D)

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: Richard Fridd on 12 May, 2012, 09:10:19 AM
Oil feed nozzle.  I think the easiest way to check the condition of this is to remove the cam cover and look downwards to  find the area immediately above the front main bearing and crankshaft   pulley wheel for the timing chain.there should be a tapered spout not dissimilar to that of an oiling can.richard


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: SteveGales on 12 May, 2012, 10:57:22 AM
Hi Brian , Chris

Yes it was that one... indirectly! The letter was written in reply to that article by Doug Ellis. He had tried / checked a few
things mentioned in the article and then come up with an additional solution of the roller bearing to replace the bush ,
listed as 'the nylon bushing' in the pdf diagram. That was the only one I changed , imagine how smooth it must be if you change
them all !

Steve


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: ncundy on 12 May, 2012, 11:13:15 AM
.... but there was a common story that because the timing chain tensioner was pressure-fed then with low pressure at tick-over there was a risk of the chain jumping a tooth and wrecking the engine. Can this be true I wonder, and if so, is it true for Fulvias too?

Colin


Looking at the size of the feed orifice in the tensioner I suspect the oil is there to provide dampening, with the spring to provide the tension. The springs can weaken and a common trick is to put a small ball bearing under it.


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 12 May, 2012, 03:00:32 PM
Managed two short runs today. The brakes are easing off - think we've narrowed it down to sticking pistons in the calipers which I'm hoping will ease off now the car is getting some use. Oil pressure seems strong when cold and then less when the engine's hot, will investigate the oil feed nozzle but is it worth trying a different viscosity of oil? Is 10/40 at the moment.

It is still venting steam through the pressure release pipe, though only for a couple of minutes. Fan did come on reversing into the drive and letting the car idle after the second run. However, the seal on the cap seems shot (see image) so thinking this is probably the culprit? Is the seal an easy find? As you can see water level has really dropped - was above the core, now below. Have checked oil level which is fine and no mayonnaise so suspect seal rather than head gasket...

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 12 May, 2012, 05:18:27 PM
Managed two short runs today. The brakes are easing off - think we've narrowed it down to sticking pistons in the calipers which I'm hoping will ease off now the car is getting some use. Oil pressure seems strong when cold and then less when the engine's hot, will investigate the oil feed nozzle but is it worth trying a different viscosity of oil? Is 10/40 at the moment.

It is still venting steam through the pressure release pipe, though only for a couple of minutes. Fan did come on reversing into the drive and letting the car idle after the second run. However, the seal on the cap seems shot (see image) so thinking this is probably the culprit? Is the seal an easy find? As you can see water level has really dropped - was above the core, now below. Have checked oil level which is fine and no mayonnaise so suspect seal rather than head gasket...

Cheers

Chris

Chris, was is the temperature gauge reading?
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 12 May, 2012, 05:21:52 PM
Hi Brian , Chris

Yes it was that one... indirectly! The letter was written in reply to that article by Doug Ellis. He had tried / checked a few
things mentioned in the article and then come up with an additional solution of the roller bearing to replace the bush ,
listed as 'the nylon bushing' in the pdf diagram. That was the only one I changed , imagine how smooth it must be if you change
them all !

Steve
Steve,
I only changed the bearings under the pedal and I've been very happy since, but as you say if you changed all of them it should make for a lovely pedal action.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 12 May, 2012, 05:33:03 PM

Chris, was is the temperature gauge reading?
Brian
8227 8)

Temp was about 180, was maybe 190 when the fan kicks in. When I topped up the rad it drank about 1/2 litre so that probably contributed to it getting hot.

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 12 May, 2012, 05:44:54 PM

Chris, was is the temperature gauge reading?
Brian
8227 8)

Temp was about 180, was maybe 190 when the fan kicks in. When I topped up the rad it drank about 1/2 litre so that probably contributed to it getting hot.

Cheers

Chris

That sounds ok so it will be well worth changing the seal and seeing what difference that makes, I would have though a seal off of most rad caps would do the trick, or make one up from sheet rubber.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: lancialulu on 14 May, 2012, 08:10:53 AM

It is still venting steam through the pressure release pipe, though only for a couple of minutes. Fan did come on reversing into the drive and letting the car idle after the second run. However, the seal on the cap seems shot (see image) so thinking this is probably the culprit? Is the seal an easy find? As you can see water level has really dropped - was above the core, now below. Have checked oil level which is fine and no mayonnaise so suspect seal rather than head gasket...


Chris

are you sure the water is escaping from the vent pipe?? Is rad water on the subframe or your driveway? As mentioned before once the level goes below what your photo kinda shows  then circulation of water is compromised.

Tim


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 14 May, 2012, 09:54:36 AM
Hi Tim,

Seems to be I start with the water at the correct level, take the car for a 5 min spin, pull back onto the drive, leave the engine running, pop the bonnet, and there is steam venting from the pipe.

If I leave the car on the drive ticking over, it doesn't seem to really overheat. Needs running to overheat. I've ordered a new rad cap as they are cheap and I'm desperately crossing my fingers that it's not a cylinder head gasket problem. I'm also going to take a smaple of the rad water and get it tested for exhaust gases.

If it turns out to be a head gasket, is it usually just the head that warps and needs skimming or do you need to drop the whole engine out?

Cheers

Chris

PS brakes seem to have freed off. Plus, spent a whole day stripping out and cleaning the interior. After 15 years or so in a garage it was pretty horrid. There was a mouse nest in the engine bay when I went to see the car - found another under the drivers seat. All clean now.


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 14 May, 2012, 10:23:59 AM
Chris,
I was having problems with overheating on my 2c, I'd fitted a new thermostat, after having all the usual leak and compression tests to see if that was the problem I took the thermostat out and the problem went away, on the viva-lancia.com site there is a discussion from a few years ago about similar problems, and it seems that sometime back in the early 2000's a bad batch of thermostats were produced with a huge reduction in flow and they also didn't have a relief/bypass hole in the face of the thermostat, I bought what appears to be two of this batch from Italy that were advertised a new/old stock.
I have grille cover that I used during the winter to help with getting up to temperature and she would normally run at 160/170f, I still haven't got around to drilling a relief hole in these to see if that makes a difference, as you have to screw the thermostat into the housing to determine where 'top' is so I can drill the hole in the right place.
I also understand Omicron state that there should be a relief/bypass hole. 

so before you think about the possibility of warped haeds etc it might be worth removing and checking the thermostat itself.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: stanley sweet on 14 May, 2012, 10:52:53 AM
I agree with all these earlier comments about oil pressure. When hot there is hardly anything indicated on the gauge, but once the revs build up all seems OK the needle is just about visible in the photo below.

When I had a Flavia this was also true. It never happened to me, but there was a common story that because the timing chain tensioner was pressure-fed then with low pressure at tick-over there was a risk of the chain jumping a tooth and wrecking the engine. Can this be true I wonder, and if so, is it true for Fulvias too?

Colin


My brother in law worked at Rob Walkers when it was a Lancia agency. When he found out I had a Fulvia he said he remembered them all being lined up outside in pastel metallic colours. The only thing he warned me about was not to roll it backwards and lazily stop it by lifting the clutch. He said this can make the timing chain slip a tooth or two.


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: lancialulu on 14 May, 2012, 05:20:39 PM
Chris

As Brian said - thermostat first. However, The block or more likely the radiator could just have silted up a waterway from rust over long term storage, but you would see a lot of rusty residue in the water. Have you drained it to find out how clean. Anyway the head can come off in situ.

Brian - not sure if the hole in the thermostat needs to be any particular position when the stat is fitted??? as it surely is a sort of crude bypass when the stat is shut (it is not 100% seal when shut anyway), so go on get your drill out...

Tim


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 14 May, 2012, 05:36:14 PM
Thanks guys,

I've had the radiator reconditioned and a new water pump fitted - didn't really think about about the thermostat. In the meantime I ordered a new rad cap as they are only cheap and it would eliminate that from the equation. I'll certainly look into the thermostat though. The car was laid up for a long time - maybe 15 - 20 years, so many things can cease to function in that time.

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 14 May, 2012, 11:51:34 PM
Thanks guys,

I've had the radiator reconditioned and a new water pump fitted - didn't really think about about the thermostat. In the meantime I ordered a new rad cap as they are only cheap and it would eliminate that from the equation. I'll certainly look into the thermostat though. The car was laid up for a long time - maybe 15 - 20 years, so many things can cease to function in that time.

Cheers

Chris

Chris,
If the thermostat has been in there all that time you will have problems unscrewing it from the aluminum housing as they corrode in the threads, I also found a lot of pinholes in the casting underneath where the hose fits when I finally cut the thermostat out.
I repaired the holes with plastic padding and no problems since.
If you have a problem removing the thermostat I can post photos again of how to, but it's a destroy job :o
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: lancialulu on 15 May, 2012, 06:47:17 AM
I can vouch for the "destroy" method, and even  after replacing and using silicone grease to screw the new one in, it was a struggle to unscrew after 6 years of car use. ???

If the thermostat is working and the rad is full you should be able to see enough water flow when hot with the thermostat open and the top hose should be as hot as the housing of the thermostat (just underneath/behind the back of the top hose).


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: BlueSky on 15 May, 2012, 06:57:31 AM
It's been thirty years since I had my Fulvia Coupe but I did take a photo when I replaced the thermostat. As you can see by the old one I can also vouch for the "destroy" replacement method! I remember it still used to overheat if I had the heater tap set to summer but was fine in winter mode.

Noel


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: nistri on 15 May, 2012, 07:47:55 AM
Dodgy thermostats have been around for some time (I wrote that note in V-L a few years ago) mainly because it is simple to fit a thermostat used by Peugeot.  The original SAVARA item is out of stock.

I think it would be useful to do a cylinder compression test, again quite simple to eliminate cylinder head problems.

Even with a new rad and water pump, it is likely that there is a lot of gunk in the cooling system somewhere (including the heater). It is very helpful to do a reverse flush of the system by disconnecting the rear hose fittted to the drain valve (near the subframe member where the horns are fitted), fitting a hose to it (with the heater lever turned to on) and running tap water until the water comes out really clean. This should be done with the rad cap first on and then off. Cover the alternator with a plastic sheath to avoid water spillage on it. I do this treatment every 2 years when I replace the Paraflu solution. I have never had overheating even in very hot weather when driving up a mountain. Andrea
 



Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 16 May, 2012, 02:45:28 PM
OK, tried to remove the thermostat >:( How does the destroy method work???

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 16 May, 2012, 04:02:34 PM
OK, tried to remove the thermostat >:( How does the destroy method work???

Cheers

Chris
Chris Cut the end off of the thermostat so that you can get a hacksaw blade down the inside , making about 4 cuts, not to deep you will eventually be able to collapse the thermostat inwards so it comes out in pieces without damaging the threads, I'll see if I can find my photos.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 16 May, 2012, 05:36:13 PM
Making some progress. After trying to remove the thermostat the rad cap arrived. Topped up the radiator (which consumed about a litre of water), took it for a run, pulled onto the drive - no steam venting. Left it ticking over until the fan kicked in - about 190 - still no steam. Let it cool, checked coolant level. Topped up a little. Then had a long run, 20 minutes or so, good temp, no steam :D Hoping the cap might have cracked it. Will renew the thermostat in any case, and do a compression test etc just to be on the safe side.

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: ColinMarr on 16 May, 2012, 06:13:16 PM
That sounds like good news - well done! Where did you get the new cap from?

Colin


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 16 May, 2012, 06:17:07 PM
Ordered it from Omicron. Under a fiver, thought it was worth a shot.

Chris



Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 20 May, 2012, 09:12:41 AM
Had two long runs along country lanes yesterday and all appears well - no more venting and coolant level remains constant. Noticed the temp creeping up when I hit a little slow moving traffic on the A30 - maybe 190ish. Looking at the fan I see it basically cools half the radiator - anyone fitted an auxiliary Kenlow fan?

Fitted a new battery and it now cranks much better and starts on the button, though still reluctant when cold after being stood for a few days.

Oil pressure seems a little better for running a bit - 50 for the first ten minutes, but then seems to drop to about 40 when hot. Thinking of trying a thicker oil - 10 40 in there at the moment.

Ticking things off the list! Thanks for all the input and suggestions. :)

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: lancialulu on 20 May, 2012, 12:37:35 PM
Cranking when cold after standing for a few days is due to fuel delay to carbs. Common fit is to fit an inline solid state electric fuel pump to prime then start....


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 20 May, 2012, 04:19:32 PM
Had two long runs along country lanes yesterday and all appears well - no more venting and coolant level remains constant. Noticed the temp creeping up when I hit a little slow moving traffic on the A30 - maybe 190ish. Looking at the fan I see it basically cools half the radiator - anyone fitted an auxiliary Kenlow fan?

Fitted a new battery and it now cranks much better and starts on the button, though still reluctant when cold after being stood for a few days.

Oil pressure seems a little better for running a bit - 50 for the first ten minutes, but then seems to drop to about 40 when hot. Thinking of trying a thicker oil - 10 40 in there at the moment.

Ticking things off the list! Thanks for all the input and suggestions. :)

Cheers

Chris
Chris,
if everythiong is ok you shouldn't need to fit an electric fan for cooling purposes, others have done so for a decrease in fan noise, but personally I like the mechanical fan set up as a piece of art!

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: davidwheeler on 20 May, 2012, 08:53:57 PM
I long since junked the mechanical fuel pump in exchange for an electric one.    Series II has electric fan as standard (or, at least, my two have).  Oil is for lubrication and cooling, if it does that the absolute pressure is less important.  Putting in thicker oil to raise the pressure does not help lubrication or cooling!  I use 10-40 semisynthetic in all my cars, changed every 5.000 miles or so and it does very well indeed thankyou.    Modern oils are so much better than the old mineral oils that one expects a modern engine to go 200,000 miles without significant wear.  This is down to the improvement in the oil, not in the engines.  In any case 40psi hot is just fine.


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 21 May, 2012, 02:39:01 PM
OK, so no need for thicker oil or aux fan. I have a feeling the engine running a bit hotter may be causing the reduced pressure maybe? For the first ten minutes after the engine warms up it seems a strong 50, but drops as the temp creeps up towards 180 to 190ish. To me that seems a bit high?

I'm going to try and do a reverse flush as Andrea recommends. Will also tackle the thermostat when I get a chance.

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 21 May, 2012, 06:48:07 PM
OK, so no need for thicker oil or aux fan. I have a feeling the engine running a bit hotter may be causing the reduced pressure maybe? For the first ten minutes after the engine warms up it seems a strong 50, but drops as the temp creeps up towards 180 to 190ish. To me that seems a bit high?

I'm going to try and do a reverse flush as Andrea recommends. Will also tackle the thermostat when I get a chance.

Cheers

Chris
Chris, Have you actually checked with a digital hand held thermometer? my 2c used to frighten the life out of me at one time with readings on a climb of over 200f, I bought a digital Thermometer fairly reasonably from Maplins and found that the actual temperature was well within normal limits despite what the gauge was reading, I changed the sender and the problem with the high gauge reading went away, but I always carry the thermometer in glovebox now and just check from time to time.

Brian


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 21 May, 2012, 07:22:15 PM
Hi Brian,

That's a good idea. Where did you take the reading from?

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 21 May, 2012, 10:08:39 PM
Chris,
 I usually check behind the thermostat, the base of the temperature sender unit mounting the header tank, then from behind the rad core, at the top and the bottom to see what sort of differential,  the heater hoses, and compare these readings to what the gauge is reading.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: davidwheeler on 29 May, 2012, 10:18:20 AM
Maplin are currently selling an ir thermometer 1/2 price until 12th June.  Seems to work too.  I shall now get all OCD about measuring temperatures... 
 http://www.maplin.co.uk/infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-223005


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: DavidLaver on 29 May, 2012, 11:41:50 AM

That's great value...

The cheapie I've seen about paddocks is this one:

http://www.merryprintersuk.co.uk/mh1/MH1home.html

David


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 29 May, 2012, 05:21:20 PM
Maplin are currently selling an ir thermometer 1/2 price until 12th June.  Seems to work too.  I shall now get all OCD about measuring temperatures... 
 http://www.maplin.co.uk/infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-223005

This is the same one as I bought and for about the same price, I'd certainly recommend it.
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 29 May, 2012, 08:17:01 PM
There's a Maplins just down the road so I'll nip in tomorrow and pick one up. Thanks for the recommendations. I've run the car a little this week, about 40 minute round trips. Got stuck in a little traffic last week and the fan kicked in straight away and it stayed pretty hot for the return leg, despite a good long run and me popping the heater on. As soon as I reversed back onto the drive the fan was back on. Think the thermostat will certainly have to come out and I'll do another flush while I'm at it.

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: ColinMarr on 29 May, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
Chris,

I wonder if you are worrying too much about overheating. Its quite normal for the fan to cut in and out, particularly when stationary or in slow moving traffic and mine does the same. I would only begin to get concerned if the temperature continued to rise when the fan is on.

The position of the radiator in the Fulvia Sport is less than optimum with a large part of it obscured by the headlamp and I think it is to be expected that cooling will be less than brilliant.

Colin


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: simonandjuliet on 30 May, 2012, 06:31:30 AM
I know it's an obvious question, but are you running with the correct coolant concentration ? It makes a big difference if you are just running with pure water.


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: davidwheeler on 30 May, 2012, 08:48:49 AM
Rather than fiddling with the thermostat (and it is easy to check the thermostat in a bucket of hot water)   and flushing, if she is really overheating go the whole hog and get the radiator recored.  It is not too expensive and really makes a huge difference to cooling.  I did both my Fulvias and could then drive flat out (!) without worrying about overheating.  It seems to be a standard core, my local Easypart sent it away and it was back in a week.


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 05 June, 2012, 11:52:39 AM
OK, more miles under the belt, managed an hour run down the coast. Picture of temp reading below. This seems to operating temp most of the time.

Bought a thermometer from Maplins as recommended and took some readings after returning. Reversing onto the drive the fan kicked in and the readings were: top of radiator 200f, pipe bottom of rad 140f, pipe top of rad 160f and 210f next to thermostat / sender. This was with dashboard gauge reading 200f. Brian, you mentioned "within normal limits"? Can you remember what these should be?

Hi David, the radiator was refurbished and pressure tested about six months ago so I'm assuming this is OK.

Cheers

Chris



Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: davidwheeler on 05 June, 2012, 04:01:20 PM
It is a while since I had a Fulvia on the road (Nearly there though!) but that looks just a little high to me and confirmed by the IR thermometer readings.  As I remember, a blast down the motorway for a good few miles and the temp did not get much above half way on the gauge.   I would have thought 85C/185F would be quite high enough.  Interesting that the highest temperature was by the thermostat with such a considerable drop from there to the top of the rad.- what was the temperature of the head I wonder?  You can always try taking out the thermostat, even fully open it offers a considerable obstruction to flow and you don't really need one in the summer.
Incidentally, by "refurbished" do you mean re-cored or just cleaned?  I have never had any benefit from "radiator cleaners".


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 05 June, 2012, 05:16:09 PM
OK, more miles under the belt, managed an hour run down the coast. Picture of temp reading below. This seems to operating temp most of the time.

Bought a thermometer from Maplins as recommended and took some readings after returning. Reversing onto the drive the fan kicked in and the readings were: top of radiator 200f, pipe bottom of rad 140f, pipe top of rad 160f and 210f next to thermostat / sender. This was with dashboard gauge reading 200f. Brian, you mentioned "within normal limits"? Can you remember what these should be?

Hi David, the radiator was refurbished and pressure tested about six months ago so I'm assuming this is OK.

Cheers

Chris


Hello Chris, I would expect the gauge to sit around the midway mark, and as David says about 180-185 F, anything beyond that I would consider too High, once again I'm with David in that I think 210f  behind the thermostat is too high, I'm wondering if in fact you have one of the suspect thermostats as I'm sure I had, I'd also go along with taking the thermostat out as I've done, my temperature gauge with the thermostat out reads around 160f to about 170-180f, during the winter I fitted a rad muff and kept the two sliding flaps shut and she would warm up reasonably quickly then run at about 160f.
Have you had a leak test on the cylinders and a hydrocarbons test of the coolant? as I said before my sender unit wasn't reading correctly either, so I bought one from Omicron and the readings are now in keeping what the digital infrared unit is reading.

brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: stanley sweet on 06 June, 2012, 10:12:39 AM
The reading in the photo looks too high for comfort for me. Took my 1300 out the other day - temperature outside was 30. Did a 20 minute run and it sat at a smidgen over half. On a cooler day it sits at half. If I saw the needle that high on mine while running I would pull over to investigate. The only time I've seen mine getting a bit high was on a hot low-gear climb up Mont Ventoux......


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: lancialulu on 06 June, 2012, 01:15:38 PM
Seems a bit high to me too although Jaeger temp meters are always higher than veglia in my limited experience. That reading is about when the fan should come on. Looking at the speedo is should not need the fan and read lower. Also seems oil pressure is too low. What does it read at 4500 in 4th when hot? Have you checked the ign timing as of too retarded could cause hot running.


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: chriswgawne on 07 June, 2012, 07:28:31 AM
IMHO water temperature is too high and needs addressing.
The oil pressure is on the low side but may simply be the timing chain nozzle broken off - have you checked this yet? I cant see that the low oil pressure is connected to the high water temperature so I suggest you concentrate on the latter.
If it were me, with the information you have gathered so far from your engine I would look at the easier, simpler, cheaper  things first. I would remove the thermostat and check. Then if no change I would get the radiator recored, preferably in aluminium for enhanced cooling. At the same time as having the radiator out I would either change or at least disassemble the water pump (I recall some of the replacement pumps were v difficult to disassemble and refurbish).
Then there is little else left on the water cooling side unless you have a huge amount of sludge in your block and heater. However you could rig up some method of checking flow with the engine running by disconnecting the top hose and rerouting the water flow through a visible reservoir.
Hope this helps and dont despair.


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: ColinMarr on 07 June, 2012, 05:31:55 PM
Not to be left out of this I agree the temp gauge reading looks too high and the oil pressure a bit too low. Rather than butcher the thermostat, it may be that someone has a spare empty housing for you to try? I am sure I used to have one, but sadly cant find it.

I also notice that you have a 140 MPH speedo, which is similar to the one fitted to my car. I had thought these were only fitted to 1600 Fulvias, with all others having 120 MPH units. I am happy to be wrong about this - it would make finding a replacement easier if and when it might be needed.

Colin


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: HF_Dave on 07 June, 2012, 07:24:08 PM
I have been following this thred as my Fulvia is suffering a similar problem. I haven't driven my Fulvia yet as I have been restoring it for the past six years. I bought a Fulvia1300 with 25,000 miles on the clock with a rotten body and removed the engine, I drove the rotten car about 150 miles with no problems, that was four years ago. The engine is now in my car. I started it for the first time last week and it was pushing water out through the over flow pipe. I let it run for a while then turned it off and carefully removed the cap! Wow what a geezer!! water everywhere Where do I start. I removed the stat and dropped it into a pot of boiling water and it opened ok. I then removed  the small hose between the water pump and the stat housing. while messing about with all this my brother in law came for a visit and noticed a blob of solder on the lip of the filler neck on top of the rad, I have removed this  but meanwhile I ordered a new cap from Omicron.  I haven't started the engine yet as I have to replace the small pipe as it was gone quite hard. I am now  waiting for a delivery from Omicron I'll Keep you all posted as to what happens when I get back to it . Thanks. David. :) P.s while I am here does anyone know what the best oil filter to use , has anyone got a part number for one. Thanks again.


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: lancialulu on 07 June, 2012, 08:48:25 PM
P.s while I am here does anyone know what the best oil filter to use , has anyone got a part number for one. Thanks again.

Fram PH8A is good I find and has the non return valve. Cheap too.

Tim


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 07 June, 2012, 08:57:12 PM
Thanks for the advice guys. The next good weekend we get I'll try and work through the possible solutions one at a time and feed back.

Cheers

Chris


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: fay66 on 07 June, 2012, 11:11:19 PM
I have been following this thred as my Fulvia is suffering a similar problem. I haven't driven my Fulvia yet as I have been restoring it for the past six years. I bought a Fulvia1300 with 25,000 miles on the clock with a rotten body and removed the engine, I drove the rotten car about 150 miles with no problems, that was four years ago. The engine is now in my car. I started it for the first time last week and it was pushing water out through the over flow pipe. I let it run for a while then turned it off and carefully removed the cap! Wow what a geezer!! water everywhere Where do I start. I removed the stat and dropped it into a pot of boiling water and it opened ok. I then removed  the small hose between the water pump and the stat housing. while messing about with all this my brother in law came for a visit and noticed a blob of solder on the lip of the filler neck on top of the rad, I have removed this  but meanwhile I ordered a new cap from Omicron.  I haven't started the engine yet as I have to replace the small pipe as it was gone quite hard. I am now  waiting for a delivery from Omicron I'll Keep you all posted as to what happens when I get back to it . Thanks. David. :) P.s while I am here does anyone know what the best oil filter to use , has anyone got a part number for one. Thanks again.

Dave,
We've had this discussion before regarding oil filters, here's the link http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3898.msg27935#msg27935 and we can get a discount on them.
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Finally home
Post by: kernow on 06 July, 2012, 05:30:08 PM
Still raining here in Cornwall. Any hint of decent weather seems to have coincided with being busy, but I'm hoping there will be progress soon.

Arrgghh!

Chris