Lancia Motor Club

General => General Chat => Topic started by: Dave J on 17 June, 2009, 12:58:41 PM

Title: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: Dave J on 17 June, 2009, 12:58:41 PM
A word of warning. I had my insurance for the Evo2 with AON for several years and was quite happy with both price and service. This was an agreed valuation policy. A few days ago the renewal pack dropped through the letterbox with a collosal 'thud'. With that much paper inside the envelope, this can't be good thinks I. So I start to read through the 'bumph', low and behold AON is now part of Footman James (many of you may already know this) and to quote their letter 'we are offering you a different policy and therefore you need to carefully read through it to ensure it meets your needs'. So, assuming all policies meet the legal requirements I was only interested to see if I was still insured for the agreed valuation figure. Yup, valuation figure still quoted on the schedule. So that's OK eh? NO. Reading my old AON policy it states that if the car is permanently lost or beyond economic repair they WILL PAY THE AGREED VALUATION. The new Footman James policy states that they will pay the 'MARKET VALUE' immediately prior to the loss 'up to the agreed valuation'. A can of worms is therefore opened as to what is market value. To me this defeates the object of an agreed valuation policy. When challenged, all I could get from Footman James was, 'well we've included that to protect ourselves from people overvaluing their cars'. Bottom line is Footman James will not guarantee to pay out the agreed value on an 'agreed valuation' policy. I told them to 'go away' and placed my business elsewhere. BE WARNED READ THE SMALL PRINT!

Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: lancialulu on 17 June, 2009, 02:59:13 PM
This is interesting as I am with FJ (now Aon!) and have gone through their process of form filling and photographs and they say that they are insuring on an agreed value basis and the premiums are based on such (I know this because I upped the value after restoration - and the premium went up!). Wonder how a court of law would allow an interpretation of "agreed" (unless the small print is by those words)???



Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: fensaddler on 17 June, 2009, 04:30:02 PM
I'd be worried by this too.  Our former Chair is ex of the insurance industry, so I'd value his view on this.  My interpretation of agreed value is exactly that - once the insurance company have agreed the value, that's the amount they pay out on total loss - no caveats.  Antiques are often insured for values above their auction price - and this is essentially the market we are in.  Any reneging on that and I will consider taking my business elsewhere too.  My Delta is insured at 3k reflecting the money put into it in restoration, its rarity in that condition, and its value to me.  Market value may well be a lot less, perhaps as little as a few hundred pounds.  Moreover, how on earth do we measure market value when the market for my car were I to put it on the market may comprise only a handful of enthusiasts nationally - in that situation cars can take months to sell and values are very uncertain.

Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: fay66 on 17 June, 2009, 04:58:03 PM
Forget market value as it is never anything like what you and I believe it should be, I have an agreed Value of 5000 on "Fay"with FJ and renewed it earlier this year, but it sounds like I'd better have another look at the small print. ::)
"Fay" has been insured with an agreed value with FJ for the last ten years with no problems, in previous discussions regarding Aon taking over Footman James ( not the other way about) I raised concerns about how Aon would treat FJ customers, as I've stated previously I've always been well under impressed in any dealings I've had with Aon in trying to obtain quotes for insurance on any of my cars, irrespective that the club gets commission from them.
Seems like my concerns were well founded.

8227 8)

Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: donw on 17 June, 2009, 05:16:11 PM
As I have stated previously I am always willing to try to resolve individual problems but it is essential that I am given the name(s) of the personnel at AON/FJ who have been spoken to.

I will take up this agreed value issue with them but need to know which insurer was involved as FJ use several.

I was assured that when the change from AON to FJ took place anyone wishing to would be able to continue with the same insurer and therfore on the same terms.

I was expecting my own renewal to come from FJ but it has still come from AON!


Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: lancialulu on 17 June, 2009, 06:04:32 PM

I've been with FJ for 2 years (ie pre AON and post) and been very happy with their service.

I did not think to look for policy nuances but now note that my multi-vehicle policy was originally with NIG Limited (MV) (all the extra bundled bits - legal, road rage, euro cover etc are with a variety of other insurers). However prompted by this thread I note my main vehicle insurance on the Policy Schedule is with well known Catlin but then on the same document says the insured vehicles are as described on the schedule issued by NIG Limited (MV).

Can you shed some expert light on the matter?



Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: chugga boom on 17 June, 2009, 07:06:30 PM
HMMMMMMMM example of small print, i had my evo insured with endsliegh when i 1st bought it, i paid 7200 for the car then spent 3k on it sorting it out, i insured it for 10k after being advised of its rarity by allitalia, later on ( 2 or 3 months ) a similar car sold for 12k  and was readvised to re insure for similar value, 5 months of ownership and low an behold i was hit by a drunk driver in a stolen uninsured car!! how unlucky ha read on......the car was recovered and the little turd arrested and charged, anyway cutting a long story short mib wouldnt pay out for the car as i was fully comp  ??? but would pay my excess and injuries, so i lost 4yrs no claims for something that wasn't my fault, never mind though atleast the car is insured propperly and i'll get paid out well it goes .........small print, anyone care to guess what i was paid out??

first valuation  at MARKET VALUE was 6k!!!!!! bear in mind its a low milage evo 1  winner red ltd edition with leather and reciepts for 3k spent on it in the last 6months! HOW thats all i could say thats half of what was agreed!!, eventually after a second asessor came out and dozens of phone calls 3 months later i had to settle for 8k, i was never refunded the extra on my premium for the extra cover that i didnt have if you catch my drift, my insurance had gone up twice by increasing the cars value and for what??, insurance companies enjoy taking money but not giving it back

Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: chriswgawne on 17 June, 2009, 09:44:54 PM
My 1997 Porsche 993 4S was stolen in June 2007 and was insured under a multi vehicle group policy together with our Lancias and other collectable vehicles with Tradex Insurance who advertise heavily through the Porsche Owners Club. I thought the cover was 'Agreed value' as this phrase appeared in some of the original paperwork but unfortunately the policy stated 'market value' even though each vehicles value (given by me and in the case of the old vehicles accompanied by an independant valuation) was clearly stated in the policy documents. I should have picked this up at the time the policy was taken out but I didnt.
The 'market value' offered in settlement of my total loss by Tradex was derisory in my opinion and I finally sent all the paperwork apertaining to my claim to the Ombudsamn in January 2008 and they suggested then that it would be dealt with within 6 months.
The Ombudsman initially replied that they agreed that Tradex' offer was much too low in September 2008 but Tradex still refused to increase this. So my claim is now in a queue and every month I get a very nice letter from the Ombudsman apologising for the delay but they are overlaoded with such claims. They have had the paperwrok for 18 months now and anticipate dealing with it in 3 months .....but they have been saying this for over 1 year!
The moral is simply to ensure that your policy documents stste 'Agreed value' and these values should be clearly stated in the policy then there is no room for argument or dispute.

Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: Dave J on 19 June, 2009, 08:11:16 AM
Sorry folks, I started this thread and haven't followed up on your observations. I appreciate Don's offer to attempt to resolve the issue, but I dealt with the situation myself by placing my business elsewhere. This reply is just to make things as clear as I can and let the reader make up his or her own mind.

I received a letter from AON dated 09/06/2009 enclosing renewal details. I quote word for word the first two sentences from paragraph 3. "We have based your renewal invitation on the information held by Aon Private Clients. The policy being offered is different to your current policy; you should therefore ensure that the Footman James policy continues to meet your needs." This does not sound like they are offering me the same terms.

The FJ renewal schedule of my policy states: Value: 15,000 Agreed: YES Valuation Required: 01/07/2012

My previous Aon Classic Collection Policy booklet states on page 23 under the heading 'How we will settle your claim' the following "If your motor vehicle is lost and never found, or if it cannot be repaired for a reasonable cost, we will pay agreed value where this is shown in your policy schedule", quite clear I thought.

Now, I quote from the booket I received with my renewal. For clarity this is headed up Footman James and titled Specialist vehicle insurance. Their ref FJ/PB/SV/01/03/09. Again I quote word for word from page 10. Under section 2 - Loss of or damage to your vehicle, this says: The most we will pay will be either: the market value of your vehicle (including its accessories and spare parts) immediately before the loss, up to the value shown in the schedule; or the cost of reparing the vehicle; whichever is less".

How as a policy holder can I feel confident that this policy will pay out the "agreed value"?

Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: donw on 19 June, 2009, 05:35:43 PM
I have spoken to FJ and am now awaiting a formal wreiten response.

If the schedule shows "agreed value" there should be a endorsement possibly no20 which overrides the market value definition in the booklet.

The puspose of agreed value is to try to avoid unnecessary disputes in the event of a total loss, the value of the vehicle having been established at inception and at each renewal.  The caveat is that if for example the whole market crashed as it did in 1989/1990 the settlement would be based on replacing with a similar vehicle in the same condition.

More when the "official" response is recieved.


Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: ian on 19 June, 2009, 11:05:58 PM
Has any one out there been unfortunate enough to have had to claim on their insurance and received their FULL agreed valuation?

Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: Harvey on 19 June, 2009, 11:26:30 PM
From Tim Earle (ex-member):

"I have been in mail contact with FJ/AON as well and have been given the following info:
In connection to the Market/Agreed value In the event of a total loss and your vehicle was on Market value you would not get more than the value however it could also be a lot less It all depends on what the loss adjusters feel the vehicle would be worth. However if you got an independent valuation from a classic car specialist as long as the company used has never done any restoration work on the vehicle and the value is then agreed This will be the amount we will pay out to you in the event of a total loss.   
and in another e-mail... (Yes I know basically the same response)
In the case with the value it would pay you to get an independent valuation done so that in the event of a total loss this is what you would rec in full. If you have one done and the value is higher we will agree the value and just send you an invoice for any difference in the premium."

Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: fay66 on 19 June, 2009, 11:43:14 PM
Bearing in mind the answers given by Aon/FJ what is the point of them allowing you to give your own valuation on your vehicle if it's below a certain value, I think it's about 10K ?

Seems the only way is to get an independent Valuation, but what will that cost?

8227 8)

Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: lancialulu on 20 June, 2009, 08:21:58 AM

Lets wait for Don's input formally from FJ before jumping to any conclusions!

My FJ valuation for agreed value is quite explicit about needing an independant valuer on age and value basis. Self valuation agreed with the underwriter with photographs is part of their process.


Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: Richard Fridd on 20 June, 2009, 11:08:54 AM
in reply to ians question i have received a full value payment minus 1500 but kept the vehicle.this was after a nonfault claim against a bmw driver who hit the rear of my fulvia sport s2 at low speed which i then sold on for the new owner to repair .i was happy with the outcome which was helped by the other driver admitting full liability

Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: donw on 20 June, 2009, 09:54:56 PM
The interpetation and application of market value/agreed value may well vary depending on the insurer concerned. 

My only interested is in clarifying the situation under the LMC scheme for LMC members and as such I will put any future post regarding this issue within the members area.

If any memberds wish to continue this discussion please post in the members area where I will start a thread..


Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: Jai Sharma on 30 June, 2009, 04:49:38 PM
on the question of getting a valuation, it certainly used to be the case many years ago that Aon would accept a club valuation (done either by an area organiser or a committee member) as sufficient evidence of value to allow the value to be agreed. I dimly recall that this was for cars under 15k value, but it is a very long time ago. Is this still the case?

Title: Re: WARNING - Agreed Valuation Insurance
Post by: donw on 30 June, 2009, 06:10:15 PM

reply is in members area.