Lancia Motor Club

It's not been a good day.

This morning I took the 2C out for a run and to do the banking and some other odd jobs.  On the way home, the car spluttered once which was immediately followed by a strong odour of burning.  I managed to get off the road, into a layby.  Now I had accrid smoke billowing from the dash, front grille and bonnet edges.  Fire extinguisher poised I opened the bonnet to find a number of cables smoking and melting.  A good spray of the powder extinguisher soon cooled things down, the smoke subsided and I managed to disconnect one of the battery terminals. 

The plastic coating on both the throttle and choke cables had melted and the hot throttle cable had subsequently melted into the brake fluid reservoir.  Hence I've lost all pressure in the brake system.  It looks like there's a disconnected/broken earth cable which has resulted in something electrical occurring. I have no idea what's caused this to happen.  Has anyone experienced similar?

The AA towed me home a couple of hours later.  A call to the insurance company tomorrow to see if they'll cover it.

Photos on flickr (at the bottom of my Fulvia set) if you'd like a look http://flickr.com/photos/80688018@N00/sets/72157606371734891/ :'(

Lee - still getting the smell of burning plastic out my nostrils

So if I read you right, the engine was earting through the throttle and choke cables.

Theres supposed to be at least three earth cable on a Fulvia engine but, in my experience, the crimped on ring connectros tend to snap off with vibration fatigue.  Mine cooked a few electrical cables so I fitted one of those big braided earth type cables to my Fulvia just to be sure.

Neil

Hi Lee,
Sorry to hear your bad news.
I've just been out to "Fay" with a torch to see if I could relate to what may have caused your problem.
Not being an electrician it looks to me like you've had a dead short and it's gone to earth using any metal cable it could, does this mean that the battery to engine earth had failed at some point ??? in one of the photos it looks like the the Battery/Engine earth may have rubbed through by the battery trayas it appears to be completely broken?
Have you had a look at the fuse box? what state is it in?

Your battery to engine earth seems to be a considerably smaller diameter than that fitted to "Fay", it also bolts to the bellhousing in a different place although I can't see that in itself that would be a problem.

As I've now fitted a Lucas Sports Coil that was necessary when I put on the electronic ignition trigger & did away with the old coil and ballast resistor; I have a lot less wiring than your 2c around that part of the engine , there also seems to be some changes that were probably done when the 1300cc engine was fitted.

Brian
8227 :'(

If you need any wiring let me know as I have a harness or part of one amongst my spares
 

I remember something similar where a Fulvia I had was using the melting throttle cable as an earth.
I have a plastic brake fluid reservoir /bits if you need it (S2)
Jai

thank goodness it wasn't worse, these things can spread quickly.

I don't want to add to your misery but you may need to check your alternator/generator relays haven't been damaged and the charging circuit still works afterwards. I had the same thing on my aprilia when I forgot to tighten the negative lead on the battery. The cable bounced loose going over a bump and resulted in a cooked generator.

Lee sorry to hear of you taking up smoking, when i was an AA Patrol in the distant past, ford sierra's used to do the same thing very often ,to the extent that i used to carry at least 2 throttle and clutch cables in my van. 99% sure that the broken earth, as neil rightly says would be the culprit, simply put, if the earth is broken all of the amps being used has to go to earth the easiest way, straight down the cable centres. Did your starter seem slower than usual before this happened?Regards Roger.

Thanks for the comments and kind offers of bits.  The car started as normal prior to the incident.

My insurers couldn't find my policy number when I phoned them this morning, but fingers crossed they'll sort it out.  If not you're all invited to a Fulvia rewiring party at my house at some point in the future!

Lee

I sympathise with you entirely, a broken engine earth problem caused a similar short across throttle and other cables on my first Fulvia, unfortunately this caused a meltdown on the fuel pipe feed to the carbs, you can guess what happened next!

Glad you managed to stop and prevent too much serious damage, I would agree with previous comments all owners should regularly check and if need upgrade earth connections. These cars are getting old now and the chance of not having any corrosion problems on electrical connections is very slim…

Hope you get the car up and running again soon!

FF

Same problem many moons ago with my Fiat 127 Sport of 70s vintage. I was driving back to Bedford at the time when she caught fire.  Pulled into lay-by but had no extinguisher. It was a very hot day - clutch cable was burning as the earthing strap had rubbed through on the driveshaft.  In the end i looked in the boot (had been shopping) and ended up putting the fire out with a couple of cans of cheap lager ! No i am not kidding!

This was before mobile phones were the :o vogue and I went to the nearest village - no phone box and the residents were none to helpful. Eventually a chap in a Mini (the original model) stopped and gave me a lift to nearest phone box (Cranfield Aerodrome)!

RAC then towed me home.

Hi Lee,

Very sorry to hear of your problem with the 2C. I agree that there was probably something wrong with the earth lead/connections/etc. However, it is important to recall that, on many Fulvias that have gone through various services/repairs and so on, the earth wires which actually ground the engine and gearbox are often missing or misplaced. Please note that the engine bellhousing must be grounded to the gearbox (originally via a black wire), the sump must be grounded to the engine crankcase (again via a black earth wire). The gearbox,  of course, is connected to the battery earth via a fat cable. Again, it is common that this lead is in poor conditions. It is useful to remove it and clean it to bright metal. If the engine is not grounded to the gearbox, the electrical circuit will go to ground only via the choke and throttle cables...
Good luck
Andrea

think

Well, they managed to trace my policy which is a start!  Norwich Union are dealing with my claim and have already contacted me to arrange an inspection.  I spoke with the inspector tonight and he sounds like he knows what caused it - as identified here - the earth.  Hopefully I'll have some news tomorrow.

Lee

Sorry about the problem Lee - and glad it looks like it'll be sorted :)

Without wishing to sound too stupid could someone enlighten me (separate thread if you like :) ) as to why cars need to be earthed and how you earth something on rubber tires (which I assume insulate things!)

Steve

In reply,

'Earthing' as a description is misleading, when used in motoring terms its relates to a connection to the negative (or sometimes positive) terminal of the battery or alternator/dynamo, many cars use the term in relation to the fact that most of the bodywork of the vehicle is generally used as a negative terminal or connection to the negative side of the battery. In essence the entire vehicle is used as part of the electrical circuit, but due to the nature of metals and oxidisation (corrosion/rust) these connections can be interrupted, and a connection to the negative terminal of the battery can be lost through the preferred route causing a short circuit (or re-routing of the electrical current).
This shorting of the preferred system can lead to too high a current been transmitted though cable systems (clutch/throttle in this case), this high current can result in a over heating of the cables and result in melting of insulting plastics and any other contacted surfaces, and possibly result in fire.

Hope this explains a little…?

FF

Yep, that makes a lot more sense to me now !

Oh dear Lee, you're not having  much luck  :-\  Hope all turns out okay in the end

Prudence has now been taken away to Tanc Barratt for a bit of TLC.

Hi Lee,
Are the insurers going to cough up ???

They are using the small print on the Mercedes and say I can't claim as it's vandalism.

Brian >:(

Hi Brian

It looks like they're covering it!  Bizarrely, the only part not covered is the earth cable from the bellhousing to the battery tray, but I'm informed that insinificant costwise.  The assesor from Norwich Union seemed happy to let it go to a specialist rather than their local approved garage.  Here's hoping it won't be too long.  I'm going to give Tanc's a ring tomorrow to find out.

Lee

Hi Lee,
That's good news 8)
does seem a bit bizarre as if they don't want anything to do with the offending part ::) let's hope Prudence will soon be feeling well again without the chance of another attack of heartburn.

Brian
8227 8)

I know that insurance companies tend to make a distinction between things which fail over time through normal wear and tear (the earth lead) and instantaneous actions (such as a fire).  This may explain what to a mere mortal seems bizarre.  Can't make head nor tail of your case however - seems to me this is a clear case of damage caused in pursuit of theft, not vandalism.

Update time!  Tanc's been working on the car for some time.  All of the burnt cables have now been repalced and damage from the earthing incident fixed.  The throttle cable was non-standard, so Tanc had to send the original away to be copied.

The brake system was affected by the fire, possibly the fluid 'boiled' and the pressure increased to force a leak on one of the front hubs.  So front hoses have been replaced (they were braided), but it now transpires that the rear brakes had seized off.  Not sure whether this is a consequence of the car standing for some time, or whether it was like it before  :o and I wasn't aware of what brake performance the car should have had in the first place.  Anyway, that's now been sorted (at my expense), so I might even have a handbrake with which to do a few autotests next year.

The MOT's now expired so Tanc's prepped it prior to testing and it looks like both sills are totally shot and would definitely fail.  Apparently, it's had some not very subtle welding in the same place in the past.  Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to get every bit of body work done to a concours standard, so depending on cost, I'm probably going to go for the cheaper repair option, which I'll know the cost of later today.   When I've made my first million or so from my veg business I'll get it done properly!

So it looks like I'm going to have to put a bit more effort into selling the Ypsi - if anybody's interested in making a reasonable offer, get in touch.  It's MOT'd until end of June 09 and taxed until end of Nov this year.

Lee