Lancia Motor Club

First, let me say from the outset that this forum has been such a help already! Thank you. I also want to thank upfront Andrew Ames (Ashton Keynes Vehicle Restoration), Ewen Getley (Kingsbury Racing Engines), and in particular Graham Millard, Mike Raahauge and also Don Williamson for their tremendous help and advice - on what was originally expected to be a light recommissioning but has turned into quite a bit more. Also Chris Hopkins of the LMC Library for all the technical materials we now have our sticky paws on - tremendous.
I am the new owner - well, it's been the better part of three months now - of SN7801. I was torn between the blue Belna that is still for sale on carandclassic and that I believe has been recommissioned extensively by another LMC member, and Paul's car.
But I am a complete sucker for green over black and wire wheels with knock-ons! Especially since the car was described both in the advert and in the phone conversations , as being in "great condition." The car was sold on Paul and Gaye's behalf by Chris McPheat Automotive - and Chris has been and continues to be absolutely brilliant. Can't recommend him highly enough.
The car had stood for five years. So where are we up to at this point?
New water pump from Italy, new Lancia floor mats and 'B Pillarless' door seal, Hammerited floors and Dynamat Superlight fitted, petrol tank away to be remade and lined because of rust (I learned of that problem here on the forum) and the wheels away to be re-laced and trued. Then Chris thought he'd just check the oil one more time and - isn't it always the way - there was water in it. Had to be a head gasket.
Chris has never tackled a V4 Lancia before but, he thought, "Can't be too difficult compared with Jaguar and Rolls Royce V12s!" It has indeed proved a delightful little engine. So off with its head and yes indeed head gasket had failed around number 4 piston. Of course.
However he also discovered dome corrosion, and bore corrosion in Nos 3 and 4. Furthermore, he realised he needed to hire a Thames Estuary dredger to clear the silt out of the main water jacket in-between the two cylinder banks!! How on earth the engine ran for Chris in the heat of the summer and for extended periods at 50mph plus - without a continuous fan I might add because Paul had set it up with an electric pusher fan in front of the radiator, manually operated from the cockpit when required - surpassed both mine and Chris' comprehension. Just shows how thoroughly over-engineered the design was originally.  
Chris is an absolute gentleman and is insisting - good on him and I am very grateful indeed - that he cover the labour for all this work, because he had described the car as 'in great condition' and - even although he could not have known otherwise - it wasn't.
So, having been skimmed and the valves re-lapped, the head is now with a company in Ashton-under-Lyme called, umm, Impregnation Services Lltd. The engine is out today, Chris has just told me, and so the block will be off down there soon too. I am certain you are all just as relieved to learn as I was, that we have no need to worry about the scarcity of Augusta heads and indeed blocks. The only concern is how long the gestation period is post-impregnation and has the midwife ever before delivered such a baby?
In fact, we suspect the corrosion has been caused a) by the leak from the gasket obviously but also b) from the fact the car has been stood for five years with an SU carburetor that has no air filter; the cylinders have been open to atmosphere. It's more than likely just condensation. Still, just in case it is porosity, thus the visit to the Ahston-under-Lyme fertility clinic.
Okay, with a bit more seriousness, here are the questions we need help with so far:
1. The car has only done 7000 miles since Paul rebuilt it, he of Lambda engine-building fame, so the likelihood is the rods and crankshaft are okay. After all, the whole top end is. Still we'll get them crack-tested etc. But, who do you recommend for pistons? We know of the 'Triumph Herald Solution' thanks to all the library papers, but until the block is re-bored we won't know the precise over sizing so it may be that the Herald option won't work for this block.
2. I can't find the post on the forum now for the life of me, but I do recall someone has a tool for skimming the edges of brake linings for the Augusta. Chris has access through the Rolls Royce and Bentley Club to the precise same tool for the 1920s and 1930s RRs & Bs that he does, but of course it won't fit the Augusta. Can anyone loan us the tool for the Augusta?, because, although the linings on SN7801 are new, the brakes are binding a little and Chris knows that skimming the edges with that tool will work wonders.
3. Ah the dreaded Bibendum Michelin wheel problem. How I regret not buying the blue Belna, with its steel wheels!! It turns out that four of the wheels can be rescued, but the fifth is scrap. We need a new centre and a new rim. Has anyone got a spare serviceable wheel we could purchase? It doesn't matter if it needs re-truing or re-lacing, as long as it's rust free, the centre is safe and the rim is not bent like a banana. If no-one has any ideas, the only other route I can think of (suggestions welcome) is to turn the whole conundrum on its head and offer for sale the four wheels, re-done of course, and then get a new set of wheels made e.g. to Dunlop's pattern.  
Thanks ever so much in advance eh.
I should be absolutely open and honest and admit in closing that, unlike all of you and as I explained to Mike's quiet amusement a fortnight ago when I had the great pleasure of meeting him, I have the practical engineering abilities of a house brick. I am a retired academic, so naturally I can theorise and hold vaguely knowledgeable conversations about these things. But the learning curve is secretly vertical and I emphatically need others to do the real practical work. Unless it's sparking plugs. I know a fair bit about sparking plugs for family reasons - amongst other things my Father was the pioneer of NGK Spark Plugs in this country. Besides where I live there is no garage; the car will be kept at the Classic Motor Hub in Bibury, once it is ready. But, honestly, the practical motor engineering abilities of a house brick...
I'll keep you posted on how we get on with this recommission. To come for sure will be checking for water in the front suspension - again thanks to this forum for alerting me to that.
Oh, one last thing. I have, for reasons that will now be apparent, found myself volunteered(!) as the new Library Apprentice at the Vintage Sports Car Club. So if you do have any questions that the library might be able to answer and, I s'pose, you are a VSCC Member, do write to the Library and we'll be sure to get on to it for you. There is these days a very small fee for documents copied and the like, but it is only to make sure we don't cost Members yet more money over and above their annual subs.
All best cheers, and thanks ever so much once again for all your help,
Mark

It was Paul Atkinson's car. I have its bonnet on my car and presumably, it has mine. This swap would have happened when Ken West owned both of them! The last time I saw SN it was at Mallory Park and looking in excellent condition. I'm sure you will love it, Mark.

It was spending a morning with Paul and his car which convinced me to buy an Augusta and would have bought the green car had he been prepared to sell. The colour and the wire wheels look  superb. The effort needed to sort it out will be well repaid once you get it on the road as they are brilliant to drive and own.

Mike

Thanks - I don't know where I got Ayres from. Sorry. The engine is now out in readiness for being stripped and the block to go to Impregnation. I need to thank Alan and Rachel Cook for all sorts of technical material that they sent me yesterday. It's great!
One other quick question is a very simple one: SN has a four spoke Brooklands steering wheel on it. What is the diameter of the original three spoke wheel? Just checking y'see.
All best cheers,
Mark

40 cm. The original wheels were rather skinny, so I had mine made fatter, which is much nicer to hold.

Thanks John re the steering wheel size, most helpful.
Here are photos of the block as it was 'separated up together' today.

Well, for interest, here are photos of the next stage of things.
Need your advice. From the top of the pistons, they are 0.060” oversize. This makes Chris think it might be necessary to sleeve the bores back to standard size as he doesn’t think they can get any bigger without making the cylinder walls too thin. But he wanted to ask you guys what sizes have been used in the past on these Augusta V4s and and if there is room to go one bigger?
Thanks ever so much,
Mark

First, it is very good to see an other Augusta engine overhaul being presented at the forum. Hopefully, we will see more of it.

Your question about cylinder bore: the factory over-sizes are documented as altogether 5, starting from 70,05 mm to 70,85 mm in 0,20 mm increments. However, I have seen much larger diameter cylinders. In my present engine the bore is 72,5 mm. I have been running it for about 50'000 km without problems.

On you photo "engine strip 3", it's visible that the cylinders have been sleeved already, I assume, the bore is not much above the original.

Regards  Karl

Thank you for posting.

In "engine strip 8", it is interesting to see the connection across the crankcase in the middle - with recesses for the protruding sleeves from the engine block.
With the integrally cast sump and crankcase, engine assembly is from above and the sides. Classic Lancia - fiddling with how to do things...

I wonder if the pistons are UK made replacements fitted in a previous engine rebuild and are 69mm (a very common bore) plus 60 thou, which would be close to the first oversize for the Augusta. Get Chris to measure the actual bore before deciding whether to rebore again. If they were Lancia replacements, the oversize would not be shown as 0.060"

I would describe the design concept as querky but that's all part of the fun! Being unable to remove the sump is a pain and precludes the use of a torque wrench to tighten the big end nuts so the time honoured "tighten them by feel" is needed. The need to withdraw the crankshaft out to the rear is unusual but familiar to me as my 1925 Salmson also works like that. No doubt it all makes for a very rigid structure. I debate a little over Lancia's enthusiasm for the V4, presumably justified by offering a rather short engine lengthwise. However in the Lambda there appear to be a foot or two of spare space back and front and in the Augusta the engine compartment does fit more tightly but the position of the distributor at the back of the block rather negates this as can be seen in the infamous Augusta which has been fitted with an MGA (?) straight 4 engine.

The Augusta is, despite this, a brilliant car, great to drive and I love it.

Mike

Thanks for the thoughts re oversizing, will keep you posted. The wheels - well four of them - are done. Just have to wait on the fifth one now.

The block has been impregnated and so the decision on boring is next I think. I'm leaving that to the experts, Paul Gardener Racing Engines. The white metal, crankshaft and camshaft all look fine, as do the rods, but we're going to crack test it all anyway. Hopefully it'll just be pistons and rings required.

In the meantime, we have decided to abandon the mechanical fuel gauge and instead fit a rev counter. There is apparently a six month waiting list for the 6k ones. Ha, Chris said 'I bl-dy hope the car will be ready sooner than that!" So we went for an 8k/5.5k as it was in stock.

Lends a nice sporting air to the cockpit and - so long as we tape a 4.5k red line on - with any luck it might even prevent me from blowing the engine up.

I thought of fitting a rev counter in place of the fuel gauge but persevered with the fuel gauge which does actually work after making a redesigned float sensor. I use a cheap digiital revcounter clipped below the dashboard but prior to that considered fitting the guts of an analogue 270 degree ignition pickup rev counter in the casing of the original fuel gauge which conveniently reads to 40 (in litres) which would have been 4000rpm, and just right for the Augusta.

Mike

No more picture news on the rebuild front just at the moment; the block is being re-bored and the internals crack tested. I was searching on Classic Trader this evening and discovered not only the prices of Augustas for sale on the Continent (i.e. they're undervalued here by comparison), but also that green leather cloth (Rexine) - that SN7801 has -  appears perhaps to have been a factory option. At least that's what one naturally concludes from this car that is listed as 'for renovation': https://www.classic-trader.com/uk/cars/listing/lancia/augusta/augusta/1934/267027
If you take a look at the steering wheel photo in my bio, you can see the green leather cloth there as well.
Do you think it's possible, or just a happy coincidence that both cars have been recovered in it at different points in their lives? Certainly on the car for sale, it appears to be in the same state of disrepair as the rest of the car!
All best cheers, and thanks,
Mark
 

I thought that leathercloth trim was an original spec for UK supplied cars? The car in the advert has clearly been retrimmed and badly too!
I think the Italian advertised cars are often overpriced although owners seem reluctant to take an offer so they hang around unsold for months.
The Subito motori site is perhaps the best place to find them and there are some nice ones on there.

Mike

Hello Mike,
Thanks for that info, it's good to know it's a UK spec.
On price, well if you don't try you won't get so can't blame 'em I s'pose.
All best wishes to you - and everyone - for Christmas and the New Year,
Mark

Does anyone know where to source dash lamps from?

Do you mean the dashboard fitting or the chrome cover,1 or 2?

About interior trim some cars imported by Lancia England were trimmed to customer's requirements  including bedford cord rexine & leather.

Hello Don,
Thanks for the info re the interior trim, again useful. I was thinking of the complete dash lamp assembly really.
All best cheers,
Mark

Mark there are 2 see photo, I have at least 1 spare cover, I thought your car had them.

Don

The dash lights are indeed a rare item. The cover is made from thin brass and tends to crack. It might be worthwhile to contact Cavalitto at:  info@lanciaricambi.it  and ask for one or two "Fanalini sul cruscotto 31-5911"

Parts can be found on Italian web sites like Subito.it; Kijiji.it; Autobelle.it and many more. Just google: "Lancia Augusta Ricambi" and take your pick.

Regards  Karl

Thanks Don and Karl, I am learning every day.
It does have them, but one has a dodgy earth and I am exploring options, just in case.
Ha, getting ahead of myself really, because the engine isn't even back together yet!
All best cheers, Mark

Have only just returned to the forum after an absence...
I can't offer any real help as my mechanical abilities are decidedly limited!
However, I did note your remarks about Bibendum wheels. My car is fitted with them and I would like to persevere.
If you decide you want to part with your four good wheels could you let me know please - Longstone have refused to fit tyres to my spares!   

Hi. Latecomer to this stream. Ken West who owned your car back in the 80s helped with my at that time unsuccessful foray into Augusta ownership, had a full set of aluminium wings made for the car. Paul suspected this way back and I confirmed it, it's a very big weight saving.  Cheers. Dale

A brief update, sorry for the delay. The engine and gearbox are now back in. The bores were honed, the rods and crankshaft crack-tested and the latter also re-balanced by Paul Gardener Racing Engines - after a lot of research.
The old Brookands wheel that was on the car turned out to be pre-Bluemels (i.e before they started making them) and so was of the unwelded spoke type. So decided to avoid the risk of 'pinging' spokes in a shunt. Have never liked the original three-spoke (which Bluemels had in stock!), but have always loved early 30s Bentley wheels. It turns out the correct size for the Augusta is in fact the same size as the Aston Martin LeMans racing wheel - the design I'm told AM 'borrowed' from Bentley... Suits the car very well indeed.
The rev counter is in, and a completely remade fuel tank (rust...) with a new electric fuel sender also fitted. The re-made wheels and new Michelin tyres are also on. Lots more to be done quietly over the winter, but anyway Chris McPheat is hoping to get the car out to a show in Yorkshire in September.

Which show? Perhaps we could have  two Augustas there.
Good to hear of the work done. It is a really nice car which I would have bought had it been available when  Paul kindly showed it and convinced me to get one.
Mike Clark

Sorry, Dale, missed this. Thanks for that info, very useful to know!

Ha - damn, I do wish it been for sale when he showed it to you!! :-) Dunno which show it is but I've asked Chris and when I find out, I'll let you know.

Okay, nearly there. Fuel gauge in and working, just need to discover whether the rev counter works. For that, hopefully just a new battery and vroom!
One question though, the valve springs seem quite weak; they're easily compressed by hand. Does anyone know what they are specified to be for spring tension?
Thanks ever so much,
Mark

Attached data sheet regarding your question.

Karl

Thanks Kari, ever so much!

Hello All,

Okay, with a new battery the latest is that she runs! Chris wrote the following to me last night:

A couple of things, when first started the oil pressure seemed to be very high, I removed the pressure relief valve cap, spring and ball and checked passages were clear but it didn’t make a difference. I let it idle for a while and it did eventually come down but then, next time I started, the oil pressure stayed low as if it was warm. The pressure did increase with revs.


I'm going up to see Chris on Thursday. With these symptoms, what are we missing?

Thanks eh,
Mark

I found this from Mike from a while back, so we'll double check the valve surface. Going up tomorrow so if I remember I shall take some photos.

"A few months ago the oil pressure fell so I cleaned the piston of the pressure relief valve which lurks behind a very difficult to remove domed, slotted plug in the side of the cylinder block just behind the water pump. This cured the problem so other than making a new hex head plug to improve access I left it at that. However yesterday the pressure dropped again so I had another look, discovering that the conical valve surface of the spring loaded piston was worn and evidently could seat itself badly in the valve. A few minutes in the lathe sorted that out and the oil pressure is now back as it should be, well over the midpoint of the gauge at 2000rpm"

Okay, got to see her today. Ticks over beautifully, revs to 2000 rpm smooth as smooth too. Chris won't go any higher than that - and certainly won't drive it, for the reason that the oil pressure gauge doesn't go above 1/4 at 2000. Apparently the oil pressure was high enough not only to be right at the top of the scale but to to push past the screw-on oil filter... Investigation required! Any thoughts, gratefully received. They'll help eliminate things. Thanks eh, Mark

I don't have a diagnosis but here are a few thoughts to which others may be able to add.
The initial oil pressure must have been exceedingly (dangerously) high for the oil to force it's way past a screw-on filter unless I have misunderstood or the filter was loose. I have never heard of that before.
Difficult to envisage what would cause such a situation.
If the filter was blocked in some way the gauge would not read
The oil gauge reading maximum with new cold oil is quite feasible in my view even if it were low with hot oil.
As there are two relief valves excessive pressure is unlikely.
There may now be muck under one of them to cause low pressure or maybe a broken spring. (unlikely)
Tight clearances on the width of the big ends and centre main bearing are necessary for good oil pressure, I did not appreciate how good they need to be on my earlier engine and the oil pressure was worrying low in service.
The only other thing that I can think of to cause low pressure after a burst of excessive pressure would be for the gasket between the inlet and outlet on the pump to fail but I think that is highly unlikely.
Best of luck.

Thanks Mike, ever so much. That's really helpful, as always! m

Okay, the low oil pressure problem... Chris has worked on the pressure relief he forgot about last time. He had made a special tool to remove the cap and, after some work with WD40, he managed to get the spring out but found it to be badly bent out of shape (see respective photos below). However, the piston will not come out. Perhaps this explains things. It's always the one you forget, never the one you remember!
Any ideas as to a) how to get the piston out and b) on the spring specs to get a new one.
Thanks ever so much,
Mark

I use a short length of stiff plastic tubing which when pushed into the valve slides tightly onto the piston so you can pull it out. There is a picture on page 19  of the Augusta Progress thread.

If nobody can offer a correct replacement spring I will take mine out and measure it and measure it's load rating. I did this for some of the minute springs in the front suspension valves and was able to buy suitable replacements on line.

Mike Clark

Thanks Mike, ever so much. That'd be a great help if you wouldn't mind doing it. All best cheers, Mark

didn't someone have new springs made a few years ago? australia "springs" to mind , i'm sure my dad bought some , i can have a look over the weekend when i'm at my mums house if you want, James

Hello James, Yes please that'd be a great help. Chris was wondering whether the two pressure relief valves had the same springs in. I had to say 'dunno, but shall ask. Thanks eh, Mark

Aside from the ongoing queries re the pressure relief valve spring, Chris has had a good day working on the car today. I thought I'd update you on what he has been doing.
A bit of background first, if you take a look at 'the engine back in photo' above, you'll notice a fuel tap by the carburetor. This has been a pain for leaking. Plus the cockpit fuel tap is no longer reliable because the reed centre is worn and old. So we decided to obviate both with a new fuel tap on the end of the fuel filter bowl. Without any need for the cockpit fuel tap, we were able to address a concern I have had about the car from the beginning, and that is the fact that there is no inherent fail-safe feature in the starting procedure, because you cannot use your left foot to de-clutch. It being needed to push the starter button. Since the engine fires on half a turn, if I were ever to leave it in gear I'd be through the car in front in a jiffy!
I'll let Chris take up the story - photos attached.
"A couple of photos from today. The first shows the fuel tap as fitted to the filter bowl, Joe [Chris' go-to one-off maker of things; he made the pressure relief valve release tool too Chris told me] made the adapter this morning, I think it looks just fine and even the alignment of the tap was pretty much perfect. The solenoid & switch also came this morning. I found a rubber blanking grommet that fitted the hole of the removed switch, used a pair of nuts and bolts to make a couple of posts on the solenoid and then painted these and the bracket black. I drilled new mounting holes and the fit is really good, the posts on the bracket meant I could fit it without having to be inside and outside the car at the same time. I put the new switch in the dash and connected and tested the solenoid. With it located in the same place as the original [starter] switch it meant that I didn’t have to modify the battery and starter cables so I hooked these up and it all works perfectly. I am a bit pleased with how well this has worked out and it is going to make it a lot easier and more convenient to start. The photos show, in order, the fuel tap & filter bowl, the solenoid and the fan and starter switches [and the separate horn button we have had done too, because the four spoke wheel didn't have the room in it for a centre-push horn, but this arrangement works very well because you can reach it with a finger without having to take your whole hand off the wheel] in the dash. I actually replaced the fan switch, I found it was and On-Off-On type so I replaced with an Off-On type with Off in the up position to match the starter switch.

I will get back on with the oil pressure thingy tomorrow. Does your pal know if the pressure relief valve springs match? [anyone??] I can pull out the lower one out and use it for reference if they do."

I should add that Paul had fitted an electric 'pusher' fan in front of the radiator to improve cooling; the eagle eyed may have noticed there is no fan where it would normally be. We decided to keep this arrangement. So anyway, quite apart from the way in which the solenoid installation has gone in - almost as if it should have been thought of in the factory! - we can now disconnect the engine from the gearbox on start. Plus we can turn the engine over without the ignition on, which is a good thing to be able to do too.

Hooray, a good day!

The fuel tap set up is very similar to my Ardea camioncino - mine leaks as well !

I find that the carb sometimes floods even when not running so I was going to check the float and float valve in the carb as well, in the meantime I will add a tap like yours

 
sent you a pm j

Good idea fitting  the solenoid. The foot pedal switch is a pain - odd idea really but curiously Rolls Royce also used it in the 20's. The worst moment is when you stall the engine on an uphill junction and have to get out of gear, apply the handbrake, press the starter pedal and ignore the impatient driver behind you! Your solenoid looks like a 6v but I would need a 12v as our Augusta runs 12v.

If you still need me to measure the oil pressure spring do let me know and I'll sort it this weekend.

I used the car yesterday, 90 miles around the Dales on a VSCC local pub lunch run. Lovely day out.

Mike Clark

Further up this tread, the question was whether the 2 regulating springs are the same. They are not.
The safety valve at the bottom left protects the oil filter from exzessive pressure during a cold engine start. It's a steel ball set at 6 bars (87 psi approx)
The pressure regulating valve behind the wate pump will remain open on a cold engine to protect pipes, gaskets and not to forget, the oil pressure gauge. It's a piston set at 3,5 bars. (43,5 psi)

I was wondering what pressure is indicated by the standard Augusta oil pressure gauge in the "Normale" section. We have to take in account that those instruments are almost 90 years old and might be out of calibration,  those who not will indicate zero when the pressure is removed, like the one on the picture attached. I have seen several of those in advertisements in the internet.

I did check my gauge against a modern gauge and found the values as shown on the photo. I assume that the "NORMALE" range would be between 1,5 and 3 bars.

I hope that helps a bit.

Regards   Karl

The solenoid and switch Chris fitted are these:

https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/670/category/28

The bottom switch on this page having a default “off" position and springs back when released:

https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/247/category/49#product_img_7-7

Thanks Karl, it does help indeed. I just hope that we haven't damaged anything beyond the relief valve itself running the engine with that stuck... We shall find out!

Mark, I have a spare spring.
It is out of an engine that seems to have been in a swamp.
I have lightly wire brushed it and although it is superficially a bit rusty I do not think it is corroded enough to be unreliable or affect its rate.
The free length is 36mm, maybe that that can be checked against an earlier post that gave a dimension (from Kari?)
If you think it is of use give me an address and I will put it in the post.

Thanks Mike, Ever so much. That'll be a great help I'm sure. The address is:

McPheat Automotive
Sefton's Farm,
Bay Horse Road,
Quernmore,
Lancs., LA2 0QA

All best cheers and thanks again,
Mark

Hello James, Apologies, I'm still getting to grips with the forum beyond simple posting! As Mike Raahague has found one already, we should be okay with his. Thanks though eh; I'm very grateful, Mark

I went to have a look at the springs in my working engine. Attached the findings. Most probably, the springs are after market. In my opinion, the safety valve spring is probably on the strong side, but it didn't do any harm as the oil filter housing is still holding up! I didn't do any calculations.

The regulating valve spring is home made, by trial and error, I did shorten a longer spring until the oil pressure gauge did indicate opening between end of "NORMALE" and the right stop on a cold engine start.

I use straight oil 30 SAE.

Regards   Karl

Good news Mark a couple of issues resolved.
Re front suspension tools. I made a full set which you are welcome to borrow. I have a box to ship them . Send me pm with phone numbers and we can organise delivery - unless you fancy a run up to Harrogate.
Mike Clark

Comments about oil pressure readings fascinating.
Some years ago I had to remove the Aprilia dash and disconnect the oil pressure gauge (same as Augustas).
When I put it back, the needle went to max and stayed there. Curious as if anything it was low before, so I took the gauge out again and was more careful about not rotating the hex connector on the back and found that by moving this I could get whatever readings I liked. So I left it so that it was just over top normale when cold and bottom end when hot. Noted same on Augusta.
I suppose I ought to know what pressures I have actually got!

Thanks indeed to Mike Clark for lending us his suspension service tool kit. The strip of the first corner Chris has tackled, right front, is per the photo below that comes with the following comment from him:
"I’m glad I am doing this job, when I released the lower end it was water that came out first and then emulsion. When it is all apart I will clean it all up and check it against the instructions. Progress."
On the basis of what we unfortunately found with the engine, I knew I had to ask Chris to do all this work. If anyone can see anything that doesn't look right or needs attention, please do shout. Coz once it's all back together I want the car to be spot on so that I (or indeed anyone else in the future) can have proper confidence in it. Shall obviously keep you posted as we go along with this.
Thanks ever so much,
Mark

Mark,
My car, and several others I have looked at, were/are missing the cover over the top cap to keep the water out.
I cannot see any such cover in the picture.
From memory the damper rod is 10mm and the hole in the top cap is 12 so unlesss there is a cover water will find its way in. I believe that the original was trapped under the oiler but the top of my damper rod is flush with the top cap so would be damaged under severe bump (I think I've got that right the right way round) which might explain why some are missing. I made a couple to go over everything.

I have seen upper dust caps on which the hole on top is enlarged and got too large for attachment. I think a commercial plastic end cap would be useful and would not be affected by the movement of the rod in relation to the damper drive cap. Most important to keep the water out.
Karl

Thanks Karl and Mike, I'd forgotten about that.
Mike, could I trouble you to make another pair of covers for me? Thank ever so much.
I'm going to need to find a few more pennies because, as you will see from the photos, something bad has happened to the left front suspension at some point... Thankfully we can get new springs and also lower guides - the latter from Italy via Omicron thank goodness. These I have ordered today from Andrew (thanks indeed) and I'm sure he'd be happy to order more if people wanted them.
Mike Clark was very helpful with advice, thanks so much too. The long and short of it is that we've got to get this car back to the standard of its reputation in the club!!
Thankfully, too the rear suspension is in much better shape, just need expected service items, for the next post.

Left Front Suspension
I stripped down the left side of the front suspension and cleaned and inspected all parts from both sides. Whilst there does not appear to be much wear there certainly is some on the lower guide inner bearing, flat spots as mentioned in the newsletter article. Somewhat worse, maybe, is the fact that with the left side there are 2 cracks in the inner bearing running between two of the holes and the lower edge. You can see these issues in the first five annotated photos. In addition I found the lower, shorter of the two damper rod drive springs on the left hand side is broken and, from the wear pattern, has been like this for a while (see sixth & seventh photos). Both sides had maybe 2 tbsp of water in the bottom of the reservoir and not really all that much oil/emulsion.

If anyone sees anything extra that we need to be paying attention to, I'd be grateful for any extra thoughts. More photos in the next post

And to follow on from the previous post, here is the write up of the rear suspension

Rear Suspension
Both rear shock absorbers came off the car easily enough and when stripped down were found to be in very good condition. The mounting bushings are a little old so I might as well try and source these from Robush as I did the steering bushings, probably a fiver each, 4 of them needed. The adjustable shock absorber is effectively a rubber bag mounted on one end of the centre of the shock, oil pressure swells the bag and forces the shock halves together. It would not take much, when reassembling them on the bench I set them back to how they were (just over 30lb pull to get them moving), if I tightened the through bolt 1/12th of a turn it added 5lb to the pull. I did find both of the feed pipes blocked with a blue wax, what I believe is coagulated ant-freeze. I do not agree that this is a better medium than oil, if the oil expands slightly then you can just unwind the control knob to release a little pressure. I have also ensured that the rest of the pipes on the car are clear and removed the gauge, pump & reservoir (see photos). 

Again, if you spot anything that we're missing, do let us know - thanks eh,
Mark

Mark.
I can supply two of the short spring, I had some made because one of mine was broken due to, or certainly aggravated by, rust. £5 each.
I also have, (hope advertising is permitted on here), handbrake return springs, door handle return springs (mislaid at the moment but I can find them) and the castings that fit on the end of the running board rubbers.
I will look at making some covers but it won't be for a while, I am a bit stretched at the moment.
Brightwells just sold a flat rad car, I have ask if the new owner can get in touch, another on the road which is good.
Regards
Mike

Thanks Mike, that'd be a great help yes please. Let me know by email the postage price on too and I'll wire you it all. That's very kind indeed. We're okay for the other bits I think. No rush with the covers, it's going to be a bit of a longer job I reckon.

I bought the flat rad Augusta at Brightwells. It used to belong to Harry Gunner, then Gerald, then Lance Batt. It's a non-runner at the moment, with water in the oil and seized brakes, but it won't take long to fix it.

A brief update on where we are with SN7801, photos attached. The front suspension is back together and back on the car. Thanks to Mike Raahague, too, for the top covers (photo was taken before they arrived), and to Mike Clark for the loan of the suspension tools. The rear suspension is almost back together. We're waiting on new bushes and a fix of a leak in the hydraulic reservoir. Perhaps we now know why Paul disabled it! The starter motor is away being rebuilt as it had become temperamental, and then the only major thing that's left to sort is a new knock-on Bibendum for the spare wheel.

Very nice and clean rear telecontrol dampers, did you buy new bellows, also be interested in the mixture you are using.

Thanks, it's coming together. Nope, the bellows aren't new. The system was disabled but had been using antifreeze and that had gummed everything up. So we'll not be using that again. We were pondering Evans water-less coolant, but probably will go with what the book says. Unless anyone has any ideas?

We might be seeing some real progress now. It feels as if it's little jobs (with one big job still to do), per this update from Chris:

"I spent some more time on it today: I finished off the interior (I’ve hid the shiny sound proofing with some strips of black vinyl and have fitted clips to the front of the left side floor mat). I cleaned and waxed the rear wheel arches, removed & refitted the grill to refit a slat that had come loose at one end and, finally, put the bonnet on (see photo).

I spoke with Mike Clark to check the details on filling the front suspension with oil and then carried out this task - the covers Mike Raahague made have been painted and will be fitted tomorrow. I also fired it up again just to make sure it’s still good and it was so eager to run it kicked off on the first turn over. Hence fitting the bonnet. I’ll get information from [the person doing the bits for the rear suspension] on the last jobs and let you know when I hope to get the shocks back on and bled."

Then she might actually be able to turn a wheel for the first time in twenty-plus months. Sigh. From what was meant to be a good solid running motorcar, it's turned into almost a complete mechanical refurbishment. Touching sizeable lumps of wood, only the clutch and the gearbox haven't needed anything doing, ha - yet!

Thank goodness for Chris McPheat. Thanks ever so much, too, to both Mike Clark and Mike Raahague for all their wonderful help, and without which we'd have got almost the square root of nowhere, certainly regarding the suspension...

More updates as and when.
Cheers, M

Okay a bit more of an update from Chris re the rear suspension, as follows:

"Today I was able to fit the rear shock absorbers. Joe [the chap who does all Chris' special fabricating] has been in a couple of times, there was an issue with the thread cutting, then we decided to go with UNF as there would be more adjustment, then I was waiting for the new castellated nuts. It all came together this week, the bolts Joe has made are perfect, I have set the base tension equal on both sides, [although they] might need some adjusting with use. I have put the car on the ground as I can drive it if I get the chance while I wait for the shock absorber reservoir. [...]

I’ll have some more news next week I am sure, weather looks good so hopefully I will have driven it by then."

Fingers crossed all will be well. :-)

Okay another update. We've hit a further snag - sigh! -  and we need someone's help and advice, again. Per Chris' email and annotated pictures below. Hopefully this is the last snag...

"The [rear hydraulically adjustable suspension's hydraulic] reservoir is constructed with a reservoir chamber surrounding a central tube that acts as a cylinder when the plunger is pushed in. This cylinder has 2 feed holes about an inch from the bottom and a bleed hole nearer the top. The outer chamber appears to be soldered to the cylinder top and bottom. The plunger has a small rubber seal on the end, made so that it locates into the end of the plunger and seals much like a clutch slave. The reservoir has a sprung ball bearing type valve that is in good working order.

The rubber seal has signs of wear and cracks, I don’t think it will work as it is, fabricating a new piece of rubber is going to need some thought.

There is still something loose in the reservoir chamber, it can’t be seen, I have a feeling it is a lump of coagulated anti-freeze. I don’t think it will do any harm leaving it in there. If you do want to have it stripped and rebuilt we are going to need to find a specialist, I don’t know anyone who could do this, I think Joe [Chris' go-to man for fixing things like this; see previous post] has done a good job of sealing up the chamber but I am sure he won’t want to take on the overhaul."

It's been such a mission this car and, well, I'm running out of steam even if Chris isn't! So, any thoughts or advice, or does anyone know of a specialist who could take this on, either the rubbers or indeed an overhaul? because the rear suspension won't work (properly) without it and I want it right in deference to Paul Atkinson as much as anything else. I know how important the car is re the Augusta section of the LMC. 

Thanks ever so much and all best cheers,
Mark

My one I found out after reading the user manual was broken, as the plunger had detached itself from the shaft and was well and truly stuck. As you know you can’t see inside the reservoir and it seemed overly heavy. So, I took the liberty of unsoldering the tube to investigate, plus the bottom value holder was sweated in and needed to be removed to see how to push out the plunger. It was full of gunk plus the holes were blocked, if I remember hot water did the trick. Regarding the seal, it seemed to be leather and didn’t stick out so much as yours, so I replaced with a couple of disks of inner tube, but now seeing how it’s meant to be, I may readdress this. After cleaning it out I resoldered and tested it with water using a length of original (brake) pipe, making sure it pumped and held pressure.

Now knowing what I do now, I would screw back the valve, fill up with boiling water and slosh it round, repeat many many times.

Thanks Julian for the thoughts on the rear suspension; I'll have Ashton Keynes Vintage Restorations take a look. The next problem that has emerged is the car run out of fuel going uphill, sigh!, so Chris is now dismantling the fuel filter to fix. We had talked about fitting a fuel pump, but Chris wants to solve it without doing that so as to keep it original. Then it will come South to AKVR for them to finish off. Thankfully, it's now either too hot for the owner's MS but dry, or the right temperature but wet. So there's plenty of time before I can drive it reliably. 

Fuel starvation on steep hills is well known, on an Augusta rally in the lakes a number of us failed on Honister due to not having filled up with fuel before starting that day.

The problem is the carb ends up above the level of the fuel in the tank which with gravity feed results in failure to proceed, turning round & facing down hill instant startup.

another common mistake on Augustas is not big enough needle valve in the carb , when running at full throttle or up hills etc where power is needed the fuel delivery isn't adequate to keep up , seen this on a few cars with zeniths fitted

Not many Augusta owners know that there is a mesh inside the petrol tank that can become clogged. Unfortunately it's only visible by using a light and a small mirror. Or open up the tank of course.

Also, the parts book lists a mesh at the petrol inlet banjo bolt at the Zenith carburetor. (31-625/41)

I could not find a reliable source regarding the size of the needle valve, but I think it should be 250 for gravity feed and 150 for fuel pump feed.

Karl

Awful warning there Karl - if the tank is cleaned and then coated internally to prevent rust surely that filter will be clogged?

My tank  was coated by the previous owner  and looks perfect inside although I have not looked at that filter. I did have fuel starvation problems initially but this was related to an incompatibity between fuel tap and the glass filter and certainly does  not happen now, however steep the hill.

Mike Clark

Well, yes that's a good point. It probably depends on the viscosity of the sealing compound. As it should creep into small gaps etc. it might not clog up a mesh. (I hope)

My tank has been repaired a long time ago and a repair sheet soldered to the bottom and rear. So it was possible to open up the tank and remove all the rust again. I got rid of the mesh in the tank but added one at the top of the glass bowl.

The photos above are not from my tank!

See the Augusta Newsletter issue 3, September 2012.

Karl

Thanks for all these thoughts. We have traced the problem. The sealant is failing: It's turning to dust. You can literally blow it out the fuel outlet! New tank required I expect, but first we have to get our money back. Are new tanks available or will it need to be made?

Most probably there won't be any new tanks on the market. Even if you find one, it might be just as bad inside.
Find someone who will open up the tank at the bottom on 4 places corresponding with the 4 bays. 8" by 8" should do. Then have it dry ice blasted inside and outside. That will clear it out and show any weak spots.
Check the rivets which attach the baffles etc. The bottom of the float tube is sensitive for corrosion as water can pool there.

IMHO there is no need for sealant, just have the tank near full when the car isn't used for some length of time to prevent condensation forming.

The pictures show my tank which already had a repair a long time ago, just to show the inside. The repair was riveted and then soft soldered. Alu rivets don't work, I got copper pop-rivets from a local plumber. Paint outside with two-pack to resist spilled E10 petrol. I hope that helps. Karl

 

Hi Karl,
That looks really good!
Unfortunately, the tank was very badly rusted on the inside. Like the front shocks, it looked like it been left empty for the five years it hadn't been run. Layers of rust - 'Titanic' springs to mind. If we shot blasted it, I'm not sure how much'd be left - not much - and I wouldn't trust it, especially given its proximity to the front seat passenger! So, nope. We'll have to get a new tank made then. Good. At least we know. Chris' colleague Jo has just made a new tank for a Sizaire-Berwick they're rebuilding, which is super.
Time, time, time, that's the only thing...
It'll be next year before this is ready now, I'll bet.
Cheers - Mark

As it happens there is a thread on the website of a well known chain driven car touching on this very point. Suggestions from members so far include the following:
John Underwood (Star Engineering) at Usk Road, Caerleon, Gwent, NP6 1LQ. Tel : 01633 423915. I have used him in the past for radiator repairs at which he is excellent.
Roger Figgures at Fusion Welding and Fabrication , Bentley Way, Ampress Park, SO41 8JW has been suggested as someone who would make a tank in stainless steel.
The following suggestion (in fact from a Lancia owner as well) 'You could speak to Dave Cale in Worcestershire....he can make you a beauty in steel sheet which Thomas Gameson in the Midlands will professionally tin for you....better than leaded sheet as it tins all edges. Then a simple soldering job by your local radiator chaps - saves £1000s -literally and a top job. I did my Vauxhall tank that way and its beautiful...one radiator company quoted £6k and I made mine for well under £1,000 all in.' has been seconded by another member. I can provide links to the two people who recommended this approach. The Vauxhall referred to is a 30/98.

Thanks Michael,
It's all helpful so I'd be grateful, thanks eh. Some of the folk in the VSCC are saying get it done in Aluminium - lighter and won't rust. Or at least it'd be a very long time before it did.
Still pondering :-)
Thanks again,
Mark

There is a lot of debate about whether ethanol fuel attacks aluminium fuel tanks. In general it seems that up to e10 is ok. The problem seems to be that ethanol absorbs moisture from the air which can cause corrosion of steel and attack aluminium. This is most likely to happen if the car is unused for a few months with the tank part full so the maximum surface area of fuel is available to absorb moisture. Answer is to top the tank up before laying up for the winter, after all Cleveland Discol with 15% ethanol was sold from about 1930 to 1960 without getting a bad reputation, presumably because cars were used, not laid up.
My Salmson has an aluminium tank, fitted in 1985 - no problems seen.
There are additives which claim to protect .

Mike Clark

Okay, so the latest news is that the tank was sent away to Hartlepool Radiators for them to re-do it, and the result was not usable unfortunately.
Thank goodness for Mike Wheeler, who lives not very far away from me in Witney and who I first met nigh on 50 years ago when I was a small boy and I went into his motorcycle shop with my Dad, who pioneered NGK in this country. Mike was a customer of his. Small world, because as many of you will know, Mike is a great Lancia man, with a Lambda, an Augusta saloon and the famous china blue supercharged Augusta March Special. The one that was on the stand at the NEC Classic Car Show last month. Oh, and a Fiat six-light, but we'll ignore that!!
Anyway, I told him the story and he said 'Never mind, I've got two on the shelf in the garage.' After insisting on paying him twice what he asked me for, because... well, to pay what he asked me to pay him would have been daylight robbery, one of the tanks was in the boot and on its way up to Chris McPheat.
Mike had told me 'It's nickel plated so it won't rust.' And indeed there was no rust at all either inside or out.
Which led me to ponder how the one on Paul's car had gone rusty...
Anyway, the tank was seemingly off a maroon car and so Chris needed to remove the paint. As he did so, he found black paint underneath, but it needed repainting to be able to go on the car. But Chris said, 'If I send this away to a painter, they'll bake it as they do these days, and all the nickel will melt and run out.'
Is that the answer to why the original tank had gone rusty?
'I don't want to paint it with a spray can myself, because I'm not so sure these modern petrols won't lift that. So what I suggest we do is I gently remove the paint to leave the nickel coating. I'll gently polish that and we'll see what that looks like.'
Looks great :-)
The only trick now is to have a fuel cap made for the tank and a new electrical sender fitted, because the cap is a different one to the one on the car and the sender that we did for the original is too long for this new tank also (and the aperture for the original mechanical rod sender that was still in the new tank is a completely different size too). Either Lancia changed the internal shape of the tank along with the cap design at some point or perhaps it is an after-market tank? But the latter doesn't make any sense, because it's nickel plated as from the factory. Perhaps the tank on the car as I bought it was not genuine Lancia - hence the reason for the rust?
Anyway, even if the answer to these questions is lost in the mists of time, it matters not really. This one looks to be perfect. The first time I've felt something has gone right quite honestly. Everything else has felt like a fight. But, finally the car is about where both myself and Chris, to be fair, thought it was when I bought it two and a half years ago. So perhaps I will get to drive it in the New Year.
Fingers crossed. 
All best cheers for the Festive Season,
Mark

Quite a story regarding your tank.

By the look, the tank looks as it has been modified/repaired at some time. The filler neck seems to be at the original place, but the opening for the sender is at a different place and of different size.
I don't think they were nickel plated in the factory. Perhaps tinned on the outside. Rust occurs when the inside is exposed to humid air (empty tank) or in modern times petrol containing alcohol attracting water.

If you are happy, use it. You can always paint it, but it should not be heated.

I have 2 questions re the photo of the tank.
Whats the purpose of the brass container/pump forward of the tank?
What is held by the tree bolts at the side of the tank? 2 of the bolts go trough the Lancia data plate!

Thanks   Karl

Hello Karl,
The ins and outs of the new tank (Mike's) over the one that was on the car (Paul's) are a puzzle. Mike's tank definitely had a mechanical fuel gauge rod inside the tank and the working mechanism on the top minus the clockwork bit, so it's genuine enough. I reckon Lancia changed the fuel tank design at some point, because the length of the rod is shorter than on Paul's too. But which is the newer and which is the older I have no idea. The bolts you mention I have no clue! I'll ask Chris when I am next up. The second reservoir is for the hydraulically adjustable rear suspension fitted to the Lusso models of which this is one, that is internally adjustable from the cockpit with its own gauge. These are just visible in the attached photo.
More news as and when :-)
All best festive cheers,
Mark

looks like a belna tank to me, smaller tank unit than italian cars and operated by a chain and float not like the geared mechanism on the italian cars ,also has the clip to to secure the conduit for the chain on the top of the tank which i think is belna only ,i could be wrong , i'm no expert ,j

I am sorry, I did miss the adjustable rear shock absorbers mentioned earlier in this tread. Questions answered, thank you.

As James is pointing out correctly, the tank is from a Belna. This is confirmed by several photos from the internet. I think the (Italian) petrol gauge in the instrument panel will need to be adapted to the french sender, if there is one.

Karl

Ah thanks, a Belna tank. That makes sense then. D'accord nous avons quelque chose Francaise sur la voiture, bon. And anyway, a good deal cheaper than having a new one made. Hartlepool Radiators rendered the original unusable so there was no choice. And you are right, it is a different size, because the electronic sender unit that Chris had on the original is too long for this one.
We've changed it to electronic, by the way because I wanted to use the original fuel gauge aperture for a rather lovely rev counter. Otherwise I'll blow it up. Attached - and the eagle eyed among you will note I'll have to stick a lower redline on this rev counter, otherwise I'll blow it up anyhow!!
You'll see also it has a new Bluemels Bentley steering wheel too. The one Paul had on it was an unwelded Brookands one with the spokes only slotted. Hmmm. According to Bluemels, the new one is in fact an Aston Martin wheel as they stole the design from Bentley and shrunk the diameter for their Le Mans cars, and this is the same diameter as that for the Augusta. Very thoughtful of Aston Martin to consider that I thought! Bluemels had the original Lancia three spoke wheel on the shelf in stock, but I don't like it at all. All wrong to me.
The new wheel and the rev counter change the atmosphere in the cabin quite remarkably. Feels much more complete, period and, dare I say it, sporting to me - which is what any Lancia should be after all. And also British too of course, with the green inside and out - exactly what I wanted all along. Ha - it's only taken two years of 'effing about' fixing the car to actually get there. Still, hopefully nearly there now. Only a few more things to do before it's 'where I want it' :-)

Okay news on the tank, in the order I received it this week from Chris McPheat. In short, a lot of work, but much progress; flickr link to photos below:

----
I have now fitted the fuel filler neck and cap from the original tank onto the new tank. The neck's diameter was slightly larger than the hole and the hole also had an internal lip that I wanted to get rid of, careful filling and the use of a flap wheel sander on the drill facilitated this first part. The neck has a flange that goes inside the tank, about 5mm larger in diameter than the hole, as well as two locating lugs around 100º apart. I copied the old tank and filed out 3 nicks in the hole perimeter, 2 for the locators once fitted, the third to allow the whole filler and flange to pass through the hole sideways before being pulled back square. I then suspended the tank from the filler neck o the weight of the tank was on the flange and, as both parts were already copiously tinned, heated it up and ran solder all around the joint. It could not have gone better, a got a very solid and leak free joint all the way around. For the cap, as it has the extension on for fuel level, all I had to do was take a couple of mm of the end so it seated nicely. I can’t tell you how glad I am that this worked all to plan. That just leaves the sender.
----

I have some more news on the fuel tank. Joe came by yesterday and we chatted about solutions for mounting the sender. We clearly both then thought about it overnight as he came in again this morning and we went through our options. I wanted the adapter to be secure so I talked him into my idea of using a split securing ring to go inside the tank and an adapter that would fit into an enlarged hole that's drilled and tapped to accept the unmodified fuel sender. This way the tank will be sandwiched and sealed between the ring and the adapter, making it very secure, and if the sender fails in the it will be just a matter of unscrewing it and dropping in a new one.
----
Some more news to finish the week. Today I cut the fuel sender hole in the tank. I first cut through a piece of 10mm plywood to make a guide and then strapped this securely to the top of the tank where I wanted the new hole to be (I wanted to come a couple of mm towards the centre to move the edge away from a  baffle and a couple more towards the front of the tank to make sure the strengthening ridge was also avoided). The cutter worked well, the hole was perfect for the adapter and once the internal burrs were removed it all went together beautifully. The tank is now back on the car, fuel sender tested with the gauge. I am not happy with the tap & filter, it is too heavy and has too many joints. I am going to have Joe help me on Monday to get rid of some of these - the outlet thread on the filter is a steel insert, if I can remove this I can have a much more simple outlet and loose 4 joints. I am also going to have the banjo that attaches the fuel tap to the tank outlet made narrower across the faces and shorted in the thread so it can be fitted direct into the tap - this takes 2 more joints out of the situation. I have put some more photos on the Flickr album (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mcpheat_automotive/53532138732/in/album-72157719214583667/).
----
I should say the reason for the fuel tap that you will see in the photos and that Chris is wanting to simplify is that the internals on the original shut-off from the cabin had all-but disintegrated and rendered an under-bonnet shut off tap necessary, and the one that Paul had on the car, at the end of a brass fuel line right by the carburetor, leaked. Plus, I wanted in any case to - as you know from the previous posts - put a 'redundancy' into the start procedure by having a dash start-button. Or in fact an engine turn-over switch as its wired live on purpose. That is, to be able to use my left leg to de-clutch while starting; as originally designed with the left foot-operated starter, de-clutching is impossible. We used the holes in the firewall and in the dash from the original manual fuel shut-off to achieve this, which of course renders the foot start button, though still in situ, now merely an ornament. But all that then necessitated a new fuel tap, importantly much closer to the tank and thus much farther away from a hot exhaust manifold than the (leaking) one Paul had fitted (though I'm sure it didn't leak when he fitted it, however long ago that was). It is *this* new fuel tap that Chris is discussing above.

So anyway, a shakedown test drive hopefully towards the end of next week. I am going up to drive it all being well the Monday following.
Keep your fingers crossed! :-)

Mark I agree about the left foot starter pedal. It's a pest if you happen to stall the engine in traffic. My original starter pedal switch  failed but being a bit involved with another  vintage project I just replaced it with one from  a 1960's Mini, the button on the floor version, which fits in place of the Lancia pedal with no significant mods to the car. I'll probably eventually fit a button below the dash out of sight as I have done on my Salmson as a security measure. Hope the test run goes well!
Mike Clark

I did some work on my tank as the paint was damaged by spilled E10. Also I have been replacing the original sender unit by a new, very expensive part from Cavalitto. As my tank sits higher than the original, I had to modify the sender unit as such that it would clear the bonnet. Now calibrated, indicates to the liter.

Foot starter: I prefer to start the engine without pressing the clutch pedal. This because avoiding damage to the axial bearing surfaces of the centre main bearing. By pressing the clutch pedal, the crankshaft is pulled back by considerable force into the axial bearing. There might be little or no lubrication as oil pressure has to build up first.  However, by not pressing the clutch pedal, some of the shafts and gears in the gearbox have to be turned with the starter motor, offering some (little) resistance. The Augusta manual does not mention any action by the clutch pedal when starting the engine.

I hope the test runs went well, I look forward hearing from the impressions.

Kari

Karl
the new tank unit look like solid gold!

"Karl the new tank unit look like solid gold!"

It did cost almost as such! However, considering the original made from MAZAK lasted 88 years, not that bad.

While the tank was out, I renewed the fuel tap seals as there was a slight leak. Before installing, I left the tap under some pressure for 24 hours to see if tight.

Karl

That's a vice and a half!

Hello Karl,

Ha - the more you tell mabout this little car the less I like!

Viz: "Foot starter: I prefer to start the engine without pressing the clutch pedal. This because avoiding damage to the axial bearing surfaces of the centre main bearing. By pressing the clutch pedal, the crankshaft is pulled back by considerable force into the axial bearing. There might be little or no lubrication as oil pressure has to build up first.  However, by not pressing the clutch pedal, some of the shafts and gears in the gearbox have to be turned with the starter motor, offering some (little) resistance. The Augusta manual does not mention any action by the clutch pedal when starting the engine."

Umm, do you really mean to say that depressing the clutch moves the crankshaft?!? :-0
What on earth was Mr Lancia thinking??
Well, that'll remind me to turn the engine over a few times before <contact!>.

I'm driving it tomorrow all being well, so yes will let you know.
In the meantime the full petrol tan saga from Chris himself can be found here: https://www.mcpheatautomotive.com/post/lancia-augusta-fuel-tank-saga

And here are three photos of the car from last week after Chris had taken it for a little drive.

Shall report more in the next couple of days.

Good looking Gussie!

Well, moving the crankshaft fore or back was not invented by Lancia. All cars equipped with manual gearboxes are concerned. Therefore, it's also a bad habit to stand at the red light in gear and the clutch pedal depressed. The movement is a very small amount, on the Augusta engine less than a tenth of a mm. However there is a considerable force involved. In case of the Augusta, the clutch spring is compressed to a load of about 390 lbs, and depressing the clutch pedal will cause the crankshaft to be pulled axially back to the front side of the center bearing by this amount. (Thanks Mike Clark for the clutch data)

Attached a picture of the center bearing with a well worn axial bearing surface and other damage. And the crank with corresponding surfaces.

There is no reason to be worried! Just keep going and have fun.

Regards

Karl

Hello Karl and Mike,
Ta, it does look really lovely. Yes, thanks for the excellent description. Just shows you how little I know!
Chris gave me the verbal tutorial this morning, but then noted HE'D rebuilt it, it would be absolutely fine, all the crank bearings are sound and he's not worried at all about that.
I didn't drive the car today, but did get driven in it. You're right Mike, it's going to be great. Only two things to do, sort a bad steering wheel wobble and fit a fuel pump as, flat-out, the 'big' (well, in comparison with the carb that was on it as standard) SU is drinking fuel faster than the pipe can deliver it from the scuttle tank - even with the fuel filter removed.
It's going to be fun, it handles beautifully, has a nice quiet cabin (Chris completely lined it with Dynamat at the start of 'things' for me) that's very solid-feeling and extremely well packaged as you know anyway. The rebuilt engine with the balanced crank revs as smooth as smooth all the way to the 4k red-line, with that lovely V4 beat at idle, and - as you know too - for a 1931-designed 1200cc engine, it pulls very well indeed. It'll be flat out everywhere once the fuel pump's fitted.
Interestingly, the gear change is best 1st-2nd very quick. If you pause at all, you have to double-declutch. If you race-change, it goes straight in, and is quiet as a mouse too because of course Paul fitted the silent second modification when he rebuilt it. So with the synchro on the other two, it's like a modern gearbox.
Chris and Joe have done a really great job with the fuel tank, it matches the rocker cover perfectly. And the Augusta fuel cap with it's built-in dip stick now fits as if original.
Any ideas on the wheel wobble?
Going back up on the 26th March to drive it - flat out :-)
It'll be worth the wait.

Wheel wobble:
The wheels need to be balanced dynamically! My friendly tyre dealer uses self-sticking weights for motorbikes, they are only 1/2in wide. Best balance all wheels.

You have mentioned a silent second gear and synchro in your gearbox. Can you enlighten the Augusta fraternity on that subject? Thanks very much.

Karl

Hello Karl,
Yes, that's the strange thing because they were supposed to have been balanced when they were rebuilt. Ah well, we'll see.
I shall do I promise. The paper work for it is in the pile of papers that are n the back seat. I was so delighted having been driven in her for the first time since I bought her, I completely forgot - again - to pick it all up :-)
By the way, I think you were asking once about the bolts through the chassis plate on the bulkhead top. They're to secure the secondary reservoir for the hydraulic shock absorber adjustment - the one that the adjuster works to. It's so tightly packaged in around there that's clearly the only place they could do it.
I shall remember not depress the clutch while waiting at the traffic lights in my little Citroen C3 t-d when I head into Oxford this afternoon. But then I get a rattling thrust-race. Ha - sounds like a truck!
Thanks ever so much Karl for all your help and advice on this page; when I look through you've been keeping on this 'saga' for a very long time and I'm grateful. (Also to Mike for his suspension toolkit, without which we'd have been properly stuck).
Mark

I envy you getting to know your Augusta, but let me ask a question of Kari. Kari, I am interested in your comments about wear on the main bearings from use of the clutch. Surely, with all conventional engines with clutches mounted on the flywheel there will be axial forces and wear taken up by the flanges on the bearings. Is there anything different about the Augusta engine in this respect? My habit over the years with all my cars has been to depress the clutch at start-up, to ease the load on the starter motor by saving it from also turning a cold and stiff gearbox.
Similarly, I am intrigued by the idea of synchromesh on Augusta. My memories of Aprilia and Augusta quick gearshifts is that the feeling of synchromesh is virtual and mostly in the imagination!

Before you fit a fuel pump have you checked the actual rate of flow which the feed to the carburettor can pass? Disconnect the pipe from the float chamber and see how many cc flow per minute. I am sure if all is right with tap and filter the flow would feed any rate of consumption the Augusta would use. After all it  did work for Paul. Gravity feed works on many vintage cars with scuttle mounted fuel tanks, and even on  those with Autovacs the final feed to the carb is by gravity from the Autovac. My vintage Salmson has an SU fed from a scuttle tank and it works until the tank is empty.

Bear in mind that the fuel consumption at full throttle up hill could be 10mpg! My modern Kia has a live  display on the dash of current mpg which can drop below 1O mpg up hill although it averages 35mpg.

If the fuel flow would feed 10mpg then the problem must be wth the carb . Clearly it worked for Paul so something must have occurred during the layup before you got the car. The main jet can't block but the float chamber and the connection to the jet could. Is there a possiblity that the dashpot piston which lifts the jet needle is sticking?

Mike Clark

Colin,

To answer your question: AFAIK there is no difference regarding the trust bearings in other engines. The Augusta is different in the respect that in the original condition with foot starter there is just the one way to start it.
At the frequency most the Augusta owners use the their cars, there will be no problems with the trust bearings.

I remember, when I learned to drive, one would pull the handbrake, waggle the gear stick to check it was in neutral and start the engine.

But today everything is different. Drivers are encouraged or even must depress the clutch pedal, mainly for safety reasons and also to help the starter in cold weather. I understand that some modern cars are wired to inhibit the starter motor, when the clutch pedal is not depressed. (That would be the brake pedal for automatic gear boxes). The drivers manual of my Volvo V50 (2008) tells me to depress the clutch pedal on start-up. However, it can still be started without depressing it.

I look forward to hearing from Mike about the secrets of his gear box.

I support the suggestions of Mike Clark about checking the fuel flow. The Augusta has been running for almost 90 years without a fuel pump. Why not a few years more?

Regards  Karl

I have had an SU for virtually the whole of my Augusta's life with me after I could not get it to work with a Zenith of which I had replaced, body, float, jets, linkage and top and it has never caused any problems. What jet have you got in it as that could make the difference. From memory I think mine is EB (ie named after Bugatti so memorable).
On another issue, in the last months it has occasionally jumped out of 3rd gear when pulling. I assume wear. I have 1 complete and 4/5th of other gearboxes of unknown provenance. Who would one trust to get a good un from all this? Slightly reluctant to not use the one in the car as a basis as 2nd is pretty quiet!

I agree with Mike. My Anzani engined Frazer Nash of 1496 cc has an SU carb which is gravity fed. I have never had trouble with fuel starvation even when ascending Alpine passes in that car. Like most carbs it doesn't like E10 petrol and a thorough clean might assist. On the Nash I have a finger filter in the scuttle tank which doesn't impose any restriction on flow until the very bottom of the tank is reached and the also the usual filter inside the float chamber lid.
In my experience the best cars are those which lack things rather than have them added - i.e no front wheel brakes, no electrical system (other than ignition of course!) and gravity feed for the fuel. SU pumps (or other electrical ditto) do have their own problems and you would certainly have to change the needle in the SU carb if you fitted a pump.
As someone else said, if it worked for Paul, there is a fair chance it should work for you. If sorting the items suggested by Mike doesn't cure the problem, access to a rolling road should help with needle selection.
I suspect that what will work best is a bit of use on the road before making any adjustments.

Thanks ever so much everyone for the thoughts on the fuel flow. Chris did clean and service the carburetor, but I've sent your thoughts on to him as it was a while ago. The one things that is interesting is the diameter of the drain pipe on the Belna tank is narrower than the one on the Augusta tank. Thanks again; shall report back! Mark

I almost don't dare to ask: Is there a vent hole in the (new) filler cap?

Karl

News from Chris:

"I fitted the repainted tank straps today and took the car up the road. The fuel pump certainly makes a difference [...]. No fuel starvation, no misfire going up hills, got it up to 55mph on the flat before the turn around spot [which is not far from Chris' workshop; only about a quarter of a mile on from his turn, including a bit of hill and some bends before the straight bit, so methinks this is very good news]. Being able to open the throttle all of the way also makes a difference [Chris had noticed the way the cable was routed was actually stopping this from happening, so he re-routed it]. I have wired [the fuel pump] through a fuse to the ignition switch (the same fuse also supplies the fuel gauge & sender). [Attached a photo] of the tank strap [newly painted; much better!]. I used a strip of rubber to go between the strap and the tank, it isn’t glued, won’t move and is better than the self adhesive foam strip I used before."

I suspect the reason why this tank with the SU needs a fuel pump is because of the narrower drain pipe diameter on this Belna tank than on the original Augusta tank. Ha - perhaps the French didn't intend their version of the car to be driven quite the way Nuvolari intended!

Not sure if the fuel cap is vented Karl. Excellent point, thanks; I'll ask :-)

Next job is the wheel balancing. Chris says the wheel wobble is still there when you go around corners so it's not the bushes, anyway these were replaced when he re-built the suspension. So that rules that out. He did ask whether the Bibendums are naturally out of balance because of the one sided rim arrangement that Michelin's refusal to allow Michelin to use their patented rims necessitated. Anyone know?

Thanks eh, really starting to sense we're getting there now,
Mark

Bibendum rims have a welded on balance weight on the inside of the wheel to compensate for the patent avoiding partial well base design so should be in balance. I still suspect the problem is dynamic as  opposed to static balance and what happens if you swap the wheels around? Is it associated with one wheel?


Mike Clark

I have never had any problems with full throtle on my Belna Coupe (based on a saloon} so gravity fed.

I will agree with Don , having worked on 3 Belna's all with standard fuel systems none suffered with fuel starvation , my own car (augusta) did , this was because it had too small of a float valve fitted designed to be run by a pump not gravity feed , changed the float valve, problem solved , common mistake on Augustas seen it on a few

Good thinking James. My Salmson with an SU and an even lower head between tank and float chamber than the Augusta works perfectly.

I doubt the size of the fuel pipe has anything to do with it.  Think about it, if struggling up a hill at 30mph and running at 10mpg, the rate of fuel flow is 3 gallons per hour which is about one wine glass per minute. The  passages through the float needle valve is far smaller than the slim Belna fuel pipe.

 The odd thing is that the ex Paul car must have worked properly when he owned it as he , like your Dad , was one of the experts to go to to solve Augusta problems.

Another unexplained fact about the ex Paul car is that it has aluminium mudguards rather than steel. It is a particularly handsome car and well worth the effort being put into fixing it.

Mike Clark

Hello Mark,

You have reported that you have a fuel pump fitted to your Augusta Berlina. Personally, I think this is the wrong way to go. This is hiding a fault in the fuel supply and/or carburetor. Also, a slightly to high a pressure supplied by the pump will open the float valve against the float, flooding the carburetor. This will create a serious fire danger. I am sure you don't want that.

I am sure, Nuvolari's Augusta didn't have a pump and the Belna's are just as fast as the Gussies.

For the same effort installing the pump, the original fuel tap, line and carburetor could have been sorted. In the Augusta Newsletter No 2 and 3, issued by the late Morris Parry, there is a excellent description and instruction for repair of the fuel tap. If you don't have copies, I'll be glad sending them to you. When using the original set-up you'll have the comfortable choice of a 3-position tap operated from inside the car.

BTW, the inside diameter of the brass tube in the tap is 3,5 mm. I just did my tap a few weeks ago, and I have used material called rubber-cork gasket material with good results.

It's all about having fun driving the Augusta and not to worry.

regards

Karl

Hello Karl,
The inboard fuel tap wasn't working and the one that Paul had fitted into the system just before the carburetor was leaking. Since it was incorporated into the brass pipework it would have meant replacing all the brass-work anyway. I really wanted a modern fuel filter and so we needed a modern fuel line for that; I've seen this set up with a supercharged March special, and this gives me the option of supercharging it more easily in the future, if I decide to do that. Chris had rebuilt the SU carburetor and could find absolutely no fault with it. The 'fall' between the tank and the bowl is less with the SU than the standard OEM one and the diameter of the pipe is definitely narrower on the Belna tank. Nothing else we could do. The pump is a low pressure one; Chris avoided the SU pump purposefully because of its higher pressure.
Cheers, Mark

Hello Mark,

Thanks very much for the detailed info. Just my thoughts as I have seen the handle and the tap installed. Probably earlier pictures.

Anyway, I'll be interested how the system works when you do longer drives, hopefully minus the wheel wobble. Will you be using the free wheel?

If you need any information, please ask, there is plenty.
Regards

Karl

Thanks Karl, ever so much.
The other thing Mike said was that the in-line fuel filters do need a pump; gravity alone won't ensure enough fuel gets through the filter to meet the needs of the carburetor. Probably because the filters were designed assuming a fuel pump.
The wheel wobble is the thing I'm concerned most about actually. Because if it's not wheel balance that's the cause and it's within 0.40' and 0.50' alignment, I start to worry that the big whack it suffered on the nearside front at some time during Paul's ownership (which it must have done, to have broken the spring and cracked the lower guide in the suspension, as well as buckle a rim irreparably) has knocked the chassis out of alignment...
Still, we'll see soon I s'pose, one way or the other.
If the chassis needs realigning... gulp!
Mark

Here is the latest from Chris McPheat on trying to work out what's causing the wheel wobble, with wheels that were fully refurbished:

"With the tyres removed my guy span them up on his machine and found them to be out of balance, oval and not quite straight. Not to any massive degree in each case but built up they make a difference. I picked the rear wheels up Wednesday, he’d done the same with these. I spoke with Nick Mouat yesterday, I am going to send all 4 wheels back to him to see if he can set them up better than they are, he was happy to do this."
Two years they have been sat on the car, wrong.
Sigh!

Ah well, at least that hopefully rules out a bent chassis. Fingers crossed anyway.

I have spoken to Nick myself and asked him to please only come up with true wheels, however many or however few. Turrino were going to make the spare anyway, as Nick had made four from five. So it'll be a question of Turrino making however many new ones we really need. Because if there is one thing I cannot stand on my cars it's out balance or out of true wheels, or alignment issues. Wheel wobble ruins a fine motorcar!

For your delight and delectation.
The wheel saga has been resolved, hopefully.
Nick Mouat checked the four wheels and apologised because one of the rims has a crack in it he didn't spot and another one is indeed 'eggy'. The other two have a tiny bit of run out but nothing that would cause wheel wobble. So it's two new rims and new spokes. Plus of course I need a entirely new wheel as one centre of the original 5 and one rim of the original 5 was scrap to start with. 
Spoke with the lovely Fatima at Motor Wheel Services to explore the possibility of standard rims, as that idea occurred to me, however they don't do rolled rims in either a 15.75' or a 16'. They only do those sizes in knife edge rims, per postwar Jaguars and the like. Spoke with Peter Roberts (Roberts Bros in Wales) and he said the same thing. Went to the Classic Motor Hub and they have a prewar Riley on silver 16' knife edge rims, which rather confirms it, but the poor car looks like a modern Morgan. Awful.
It turns out therefore that it's Turrino full stop. Only Turrino do Bibendums and as a result, by default, only they do a 15.75' rolled rim. No rolled rims under 18' otherwise.
So that's it, it has to be the Bibendums from Will there. And Nick is going to do them as soon as he gets them. Went and saw AKVR to update them on timings and all their wheels, be they (Piers waved his hand casually around the workshop) A7 Ulster x3, Amilcar, Bugatti x 2, Lagonda, Rolls Royce Silver Ghost or Vauxhall 30/98, are done by him. So Nick must have just been over optimistic on the two rims off the little Lancia that he now realises are scrap, and it was just unlucky they were both on the front of the car.
Now I just have to wait. Again.
Getting good at waiting.
As soon as they're done, I shall deliver myself to Longstone who have agreed to refit them all with their tyres and then on up to Chris. Put the new rims on the front to make sure it's solved the wheel wobble and then, when it comes down to AKVR, Nick wants Piers to drive the car with the old rim wheels on the front and see what he thinks. And then if needs be we can get those rims changed while AKVR work their marvellous magic on the Augusta.
By the way, they have a very famous (very first RAC rally springs to mind?) DiLambda with a yellow over black English coachbuilt body in the workshop, too, that they are finishing off for Keith the owner. What a car that is!