Lancia Motor Club

General => General Chat => Topic started by: toby2449 on 13 March, 2008, 01:19:35 PM



Title: New Delta
Post by: toby2449 on 13 March, 2008, 01:19:35 PM

well guys n gals i've been to Geneva & seen the absolutley gorgeous new Delta!

I'll post pics when i get a chance, but i'm very impressed by it. Sat in it, played with the buttons etc, & the quality is far above that of the Bravo its based on. lancia had 4 cars, 3 in white, & one in black with a sort of silver roof, stunning! The amount of attention the stand was getting was hard to believe.

One downside i'd have though (although they were pre-production models) some of the panel aligments weren't great, especially aorund the bumpers, & this was noticed by quite a few people, Lancia really should have pulled out all the stops to ensure everything was perfect.

But i'd buy one in a heart beat! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: toby2449 on 15 March, 2008, 05:34:25 PM
some pics from Geneva! ;D


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 15 March, 2008, 08:24:43 PM
Here are a few of mine - hopefully this will work... (No - back to the drawing board).


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fay66 on 15 March, 2008, 11:44:31 PM
Thanks, it looks great and see it has the latest "Must Have" row of leds under the lights, front end looks a bit fussy though.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: St Volumex on 16 March, 2008, 08:18:46 AM
Here are a few photos of a Delta prototype:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/guymcdougall/sets/72157604110590467/

My apologies for the small number, but I was too busy driving the car.

I've also been 'arguing in my spare time' with my computer, and have a 2 page article of driving impressions in the works.

Do you think this too long for the forum, or can it wait until the next V-L?


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: donw on 16 March, 2008, 06:00:26 PM
Guy

Please send to Jack for V-L but it will not get in until May as closing date is 12th of month.  V-L gets to all and forum to a few so putting it on here does not mean it cannt go in V-L.

The black tape was a really effective disguise!

Don


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 16 March, 2008, 06:08:46 PM
Keen to hear what you thought of the car driving it Guy.  I was very impressed with it at the Geneva Motor Show.  The JDTi engine in yours would certainly be one version I'll be looking at closely.  One further comment added in here - I'm hoping to write a report on the Geneva show for VL if no one else beats me to it, so it should sit well alongside your article in the May edition.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: rikardo on 17 March, 2008, 05:37:21 PM
Am I to be the one and only dissenting voice here? But I really don't like the look of this new Delta. In fact I'd almost say it's ugly. I agree with you Brian, the front end is too fussy/busy. And that rear light treatment, eek!
Now, it's possible that it "looks better in the flesh". But if it doesn't look good in photos and therefore the car mags, where most folks will see it first, that's a big problem.
I fear that LANCIA have given it a mountain to climb, by calling it Delta in the first place. That name will forever be associated with the integrale to most of the knowledgeable general public. Not releasing a top spec (4wd with circa 275bhp) version immediately, will not help its cause (see new SUBARU Impreza STi).
My opinion, that's all.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 18 March, 2008, 07:02:04 PM
I agree, but only to a point. Lets be pleased there is a new right-hand drive Lancia on its way. To me it looks in the flesh like a grown up ypsilon, not a bad thing and yes the grille thingy does take over the front somewhat. A better name I guess would have been Aurelia B10, that would make a few people jump up and down. This car is going to be very colour sensitive, I fancy silver and black or maybe even red. 


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 21 April, 2008, 09:07:01 PM
Considering how excited everyone was getting about the new Delta it did not take long for the interest to die away.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Harvey on 22 April, 2008, 07:14:59 AM
I'll be excited again once I can see one "in the flesh". Until then, it all seems as distant a dream as it did in Turin at the centenary.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 22 April, 2008, 08:03:38 PM
I imagine the interest has largely waned because the latest news is that we will not be seeing it here until at least Summer 2009, and I wonder if at all.  Given the reasons for the delay, I wonder whether it will be any easier to sort out the dealer network by 2009 than it has been up to now,since they have already had three years to sort it out, and the argument about needing a wider model range seems dubious, since the new Ypsi and Fulvia won't be ready until 2010, and that's just the LHD versions.  For me, one of the most excited since I was planning to have one, that has meant I won't be having one at all.  That does rather tend to dampen excitement.  At present I'd sense the mood is rather cautious, if not even rather mistrustful of what we hear from Lancia HQ - words are cheap, we'll believe it when we see it.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 01 May, 2008, 09:44:29 PM
I have it on good authority - the CEO of Lancia - that Lancia will start selling RHD New Deltas in the UK from April 2009.

Well that's the word at the moment and I'll let you know as soon as I hear anything else.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 13 May, 2008, 10:39:17 PM
I enjoyed your Geneva Delta article i this months VL! Chris. Spot on IMO.

Can you not postpone your company car purchase for four months? You could always make out that the order got delayed?  ::)


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: lee69 on 05 June, 2008, 07:06:16 PM
Loads of new photos and prices for the June launch of Delta now on www.italiaspeed.com.  Prices are under 03.06.08.

Lee


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: lee69 on 10 June, 2008, 03:58:32 PM
Video footage now available:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G830JYZkzk in Italian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45u8S9UdV7Y with just music


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fay66 on 11 June, 2008, 08:46:07 AM
Certainly looks good but I suspect choice of colour will play an important part., must admit it's the fist time I'd noticed the row of leds under the main lamps.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: lee69 on 11 June, 2008, 02:01:59 PM
Having watched these a couple of times, can anyone explain the underbumper light?  On bends one of them appears to come on, but it doesn't flash intermittently like an indicator.  Maybe it's the angle that catches the reflector at the back of the lens - but I'm confused!

Lee


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: inthedark on 11 June, 2008, 04:13:31 PM
Not definate on the Delta but a few Mercedes illuminate one of their fog lights on slow corners.

Geoff


Title: New Delta Driven
Post by: Alan Temple on 12 June, 2008, 12:14:03 AM
Just got back from the Delta Press Launch in Turin this evening and I have to say that I was very impressed. The fit and finish was second to none and the performance across the range was a revelation. I will also say that Lancia are deadly serious Ė this was not a cheap event and nothing was too much trouble for them.

Size wise, the cars sits between the C and D segments and there is ample room in the back seats even for a 16 and a half stone lump like me. The rear seats are split 2 Ė 1 third and both can be moved forwards or backwards, a neat trick that allows rear and boot space as required.

All the engines, both petrol and diesel, are turbo charged and Euro 5 compliant and have 6 speed manual boxes. They give excellent flexible performance but with lower class leading emissions. It used to be the case that Lancia cars had slightly lower outputs than the equivalent Alfas, but not any more! The Twin Turbo 1.9 M-jet diesel knocks out 200bhp and has 400NM of torque, but more about that later.

As I was tagging along with UK journalists I had to drive what I was given at the start of the day and started off in the entry level 1.4 T-jet petrol 150 bhp first, but ultimately this was the best way to start as people who drove the bigger engined diesels with there effortless power found it slow by comparison.

To put it bluntly I was shocked at the performance. If you like Italian cars that you can rev the nuts off then this will do. It pulls well in every gear and there is barely any lag. It is easy and smooth to pootle along in and when pressing on the car rides and handles well but it isnít a pure sports car and is a bit soft on the limit. On the last leg of the test route back into Turin the Autostrada was fairly quiet and I thought Iíd do a speed run and got up to an indicated 210kph which is 130 mph! The car was completely composed and planted and it felt like I was doing around 90mph. Amazing for a standard 1.4.

After lunch I got the keys to the 1.9 m-jet twin turbo which to say the least was quick and in actual fact really very rapid and is the sort of performance diesel that will convert petrolheads. Basically, the system works with a small turbo up to 3000 rpm and a larger turbo from 3000 rpm to the redline of 4500 rpm. This car also had the adaptive sports suspension pack on it which works really well. Iíve never driven a diesel like it as unlike other diesels this car does not run out of puff, in fact when booting it you have to watch the revs as it just goes straight round to the redline pulling all the way Ė thereís no drop off of power at all.

To give you some idea of the speed this car carries, 3000 rpm in 6th gear is 170 kph (105 mph) and the car is just cruising. At the same time itís perfectly docile about town and in slow traffic but put your foot down and the torque smoothly surges in and it goes. The two turbos work really well. Put it in any gear and floor it from 1000 rpm and you cannot tell when the small turbo stops and the big one kicks in. Itís seamless.

Looks wise, I know the car is not to everyoneís tastes but it just doesnít photograph or even film that well. In the metal though it looks really good and grows on you every time you see it. It certainly looks good and stands out on the road and of over 60 journalists from all over Europe (excluding Germany and France who were there last week) I didnít hear any adverse comments about the looks once over the course of the two days.

Lancia describe it as their beautiful new car and are very proud of it and IMO after spending a couple of days with 50 or 60 of them, rightly so.

At the end of the day this car will be a success, even in the UK if it is judged on itís own merits rather than old preconceptions and comparisons. After all this is the first new Lancia of their second century and is well and truly a 21st Century car.

Finally, to dispel a few rumours and state a few facts. In a Q&A session after the presentation of the new Delta by Lancia CEO Oliver Francois he stated the following:


Lancia will build the Fulvia concept car and this will be presented at Geneva in 2009.

There will be 2 - 3 new models between the B & C segments meaning more than 1 new product a year until 2012.

The Thesis will end by 2012 and there will not be a replacement.

There will be no return to motorsport with the new Delta. This was later reiterated.

I also spoke with Ayoul Grouvel Lancia Europe Sales Director and Oliver Francois before dinner about various things, one of which was of the rumours circulating on the Internet about the Lancia purchase of an F1 team.

Ayoul turned to Oliver and asked him "So, are you buying an F1 team then?" to which Oliver gave a  perplexed look then smiled and said "No." In all honesty it looked like he though the notion was ridiculous. Ayoul then said "Why do we want another F1 team when we already have one in the FIAT Group?"

More to follow in Viva Lancia!


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fay66 on 12 June, 2008, 12:23:39 AM
Thanks Alan,
Nice to have an objective opinion.

Your feelings about the 1.4 T Jet very much reflect my own opinion of the same engine in the New Fiat Bravo, I was astounded at the performance and couldn't believe how good that 6 speed gearbox is.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 12 June, 2008, 08:51:08 AM
I hear rumours that because of rising fuel prices, Fiat are rethinking their engine range on the new Delta, it would be a shame but unless something unpredictable happens the public will make a wholesale return to petrol driven cars. I cannot help but reiterate that unless Lancia soon introduce alternate fuel, power units they will have missed the boat.   


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 12 June, 2008, 10:46:33 AM
More, I now learn that the Fiat 500 and Panda are undergoing tests with hybrid electric/petrol power units. Also twin clutch and six speeds are in the frame. Just in time for the new 'Ipsy'.
BTW said to report that the new Seat Ibiza 3Door looks a heck of a lot like the new Delta.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: sparehead3 on 12 June, 2008, 11:22:46 AM
Great article Alan and nicely objective :) I look forward to seeing more in VL!


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 12 June, 2008, 11:59:00 AM
Peter,

Interesting comments re petrol vs diesel.  I've done some sums recently, and certainly for some cars and some engines, given my mileage, it is actually cheaper right now for me to run the petrol rather than the diesel equivalent - though it still works out cheaper for me to run the 120 diesel Bravo rather than the 120 petrol.  However, the Seat Leon with VW's 1.4 Turbo TFSi engine is a cheaper option than the 2.0TDi in that car.

Even more interesting, my finance director has suggested it may be possible to extend the lease on my current car by a few months, to allow me to wait for a Delta...  So the sooner I can now get prices and specs for the UK, the better...


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 12 June, 2008, 02:38:49 PM
Worth checking out the technical specs attached with the main gallery (pictures) link from the italiaspeed website - the performance and emissions combinations for the new Delta are absolutely outstanding.  The twin turbo diesel is only putting out 149g, the 2.0 diesel 139g, and the 1.6 diesel only 130g.  The 120 bhp petrol engine is only 156g, and the 150 bhp petrol not that much worse.  And they all appear to be spacious, well-equipped (leather/alcantara on the Oro) and quick.  If they can match or undercut the Italian prices, then this will be a very competitive car indeed.  Thanks Alan, you gave me the impetus to ask the question of my Finance Director, and now it looks as if its back on... ;D


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: westernlancia on 12 June, 2008, 05:21:41 PM
Great car, and I can't wait until they are available for 50 quid in 15 years time like all the others I have parked outside (that's when I will be buying one). But I can't help feeling they are an answer to a question no-one had asked (''please can I have a 5-door hatchback with a name I have forgotten, from a manufacturer I have only vaguely heard of, mainly in connection with rust?''). And why on EARTH aren't they 3 doors and/or named 'Integrale'? But really they should have made the Fulvietta and/or an upmarket soft-roader (I don't like those either, but unfortunately Joe Public does!). Another Lancia marketing disaster to add to the squillions they have already made!


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 12 June, 2008, 06:31:57 PM
Its hardly a marketing disaster...  Is the Ypsi a marketing disaster, or the Musa?  Its a five door, premium hatch - its a big chunk of the market, and a lucrative one, and Lancia need to be there.  The car is fantastic, and as good or better than anything offered by competitors, whilst also offering something different in terms of image and style.  The product is good enough, the real risk in this country is the dealer network, which needs to match the product, and the aspirations and expectations of the people who will buy it.

I'm loving that you tube video BTW Lee - any idea what the music is, because I rather like it...


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 12 June, 2008, 07:22:45 PM
Great car, and I can't wait until they are available for 50 quid in 15 years time like all the others I have parked outside (that's when I will be buying one). But I can't help feeling they are an answer to a question no-one had asked (''please can I have a 5-door hatchback with a name I have forgotten, from a manufacturer I have only vaguely heard of, mainly in connection with rust?''). And why on EARTH aren't they 3 doors and/or named 'Integrale'? But really they should have made the Fulvietta and/or an upmarket soft-roader (I don't like those either, but unfortunately Joe Public does!). Another Lancia marketing disaster to add to the squillions they have already made!

You are missing the point with the Delta. It's a 21st Century car and a cross between a C - D segment car.

Read my post again, especially the end bits from the CEO's mouth, I'll reiterate the Fulvia one you missed

LANCIA ARE MAKING THE FULVIA CONCEPT. IT WILL BE PRESENTED AT THE GENEVA SHOW 2009!


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 12 June, 2008, 07:29:45 PM
Thanks Alan,
Nice to have an objective opinion.

Your feelings about the 1.4 T Jet very much reflect my own opinion of the same engine in the New Fiat Bravo, I was astounded at the performance and couldn't believe how good that 6 speed gearbox is.

Brian
8227 8)

Cheers Brian. Not driven the Bravo but might see if I can get a go to compare the two. The 6 speed gearbox is excellent but the throw is a little too long on the changes IMO, plus when pressing on around the bends the seats could be a bit more grippy.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 12 June, 2008, 07:31:56 PM
I hear rumours that because of rising fuel prices, Fiat are rethinking their engine range on the new Delta, it would be a shame but unless something unpredictable happens the public will make a wholesale return to petrol driven cars. I cannot help but reiterate that unless Lancia soon introduce alternate fuel, power units they will have missed the boat.   

Nothing was mentioned throughout the event. Believe me - Drive the twin turbo diesel and it's worth the cost of the fuel. It will be extremely frugal on M way runs.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 12 June, 2008, 07:43:01 PM
Honestly, you will love the way it drives, but which one to get?

I think it will be well priced too in the UK and they said it would be no more expensive than in Europe. They actually asked me if I thought it would need a 5 year warranty to sell in the UK to which I replied "Yes as it shows that you are putting your money where you mouth is."



Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 12 June, 2008, 08:27:05 PM
If you can afford it, I wonder if the 2.0 diesel, with 160+bhp and 139g CO2 will be the one to have - almost as fast as the twin turbo, and both incredibly frugal and cheaper to buy. However, the twin turbo also seems amazing given its power output, and still only 149g.  I've done my sums, and if priced as in Italy, the 2.0D is probably beyond my (company's!) budget, but the 120 diesel is going to be so cheap to run, and just as powerful as my current car.  Peter, still far, far cheaper for me than the equivalent 120 petrol...

Unfortunately, there is an opinion piece posted today on the Autocar website which is very uncomplimentary - the Delta is apparently, not special enough...  Seemed pretty special to me at Geneva, but then who am I to know, I'm not a motoring journalist, and apparently according to them my BMW is the dogs cojones.  Shows what they know...


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: stuwilson128 on 12 June, 2008, 08:36:32 PM
Thanks for the article Alan.  Having read your comments, I have confirmed that I will be getting the Twin Turbo 1.9 M-Jet diesel.  It is the one I have been thinking of going for since I first heard about this engine.  I just can't wait for it to go on sale.

Chris, in my opinion, unless a car is made by either BMW or Mercedes, then no car will be special enough for either Autocar or What Car!


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: westernlancia on 12 June, 2008, 08:48:42 PM
You are missing the point with the Delta. It's a 21st Century car and a cross between a C - D segment car.
LANCIA ARE MAKING THE FULVIA CONCEPT. IT WILL BE PRESENTED AT THE GENEVA SHOW 2009!

I didn't miss the bit about the Fulvietta, and I already knew they were making it (it was in the press last week). And I know it is a cross between a C and a D segment car, but who was asking for one? They are going to be the only participant in a market sector they have created themselves and will continue to occupy alone (just like those other two Fiat marketing triumphs, the Multipla and the Croma, both of which were great cars, disastrously conceived and marketed (just like the Nuova Delta). But they are making the wrong car first. As Audi know well, you build the image-formers (sports cars and high-image cars, SUVs etc) first, and the cooking stuff afterwards. Heck, even Alfa know this. So why are they trying to crack a market they crashed out of 14 years ago, with a cooking hatchback, and one available in 5-door format only, and with no performance engines? What kind of image are they trying to build for themselves? Their image should be the one that Audi purvey so successfully (classy grand tourer rather than out-and-out sports car), and this the Delta definitely isn't (although, as I said, I like it myself). I think their range of engines are fascinating and point the way for our low CO2 future, but the Delta is way too heavy to be a seriously economical car. The whole strategy is wrong - the car won't make a splash in an overcrowded market and the image is confused at best. By the time the Fulvietta comes along it will be too late (even the Delta has been postponed apparently almost indefinitely). I am sad to write this, and I write it with a heavy heart, but many years of experience has taught me that Fiat's marketing dept couldn't organise a booze-up in a brewery...


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: westernlancia on 12 June, 2008, 09:01:52 PM
If they were making it look like this:

http://www.angolomotori.com/tag/foto-nuova-delta-integrale/

and it had 3 doors and was called the Integrale, I would be the first to say they were doing the right thing. As it is, I think this beautiful car, which I shall be proud to own one day, is destined for the usual Fiat residual hell. But it's sad because it didn't need to be like this.

A sensible strategy:

2008: Fulvietta, based as closely as possible on the previous one (the one they are making is going to be completely different and isn't going to be retro, or, as far as I can tell, even be called the Fulvia/Fulvietta)

2009: Soft-roader with green engines and seriously upmarket interior, based on the Fiat Sedici (but with a less silly name**) if they can't find anything better

**I write Italian text books, and for many years I have been vexed by the fact that Fiat give their cars names which sound fantastic in Italian but which Brits can never pronounce. I remember at the launch of the Tipo Sedicivalvole being on the Fiat stand at the motor show, and not one of the people on the stand could pronounce it correctly (unlike almost all Italian words, the stress on both 'sedici' and 'valvole' is on the first syllable - i.e. it is sEdici vAlvole, not sedIci valvOle, which is what 99.9% of Brits say).

2010: Nuova Integrale 3 door with seriously powerful (and green) diesel engine, lightened by at least 200 kg and marketed heavily on the basis that Lancia have won more WRCs than anyone else (how many people actually know this? I meet none...)

So there is a sensible strategy. But they won't do it!



Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 12 June, 2008, 10:38:00 PM
Lets calm down. Firstly its a fact that the new Delta can never be a real quality car for a retail price of just £16,000.  Second, I know the launch of the car in Switzerland has been delayed until September because of oil supply problems, negative effect of escalating fuel costs and lack of dealer support. To answer Stuarts question, the reason Autocar like Audi and BMW is because, as professionals, they recognise good drivers cars when they push them. When Lancia introduce a Delta M3 or even an integrale journalists across europe will queue up for a ride. It amuses me when a couple of Lancia stalwarts who have never driven the car claim they will rush out and buy a new Delta, well, sorry but Fiat is looking to sell more than two cars, somebody tell me where the thousand conquest sales are coming from. If I may say this. Any new Lancia will need to challenge the likes of Bentley if it wants to succeed.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 12 June, 2008, 10:53:56 PM

Unfortunately, there is an opinion piece posted today on the Autocar website which is very uncomplimentary - the Delta is apparently, not special enough...  Seemed pretty special to me at Geneva, but then who am I to know, I'm not a motoring journalist, and apparently according to them my BMW is the dogs cojones.  Shows what they know...

I don't think he was the guy from Autocar I saw there. In fact I don't recall seeing him at all. I'm trying to find out more.

I don't know what planet this guy is on with regards to the interior. I went to the airport in a Golf 1.6 FSI that I'm selling for a company to compare it to the Delta. This Golf has no go, the interior as bland and drab and without any style. Which car was this guy driving?

For a more positive view see Car online, although 2 stars for the handling is questionable. Mind you looking at the way some of the European journalists drove when I was out with them . . . a story for the AGM after meal I think!

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/First-drives/Lancia-Delta-CAR-review/

What is all this Focus chassis stuff? Thatís exactly what the guys from Auto Express said during the test. ďChassis not up to the class leading Focus standardĒ I had the misfortune of driving a new petrol Focus in Ireland this year. The car didnít go fast enough to find out what the chassis was like, the doors resonated when shut and the engine was coarse with no power as I had to abort overtaking when I dropped it a gear and floored it and nothing happened. I was told by the AE guys that the CDI is the one to go for.

Selective with Fords but not with Lancia? I'll be interested to read their review.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 12 June, 2008, 11:18:25 PM
You are missing the point with the Delta. It's a 21st Century car and a cross between a C - D segment car.
LANCIA ARE MAKING THE FULVIA CONCEPT. IT WILL BE PRESENTED AT THE GENEVA SHOW 2009!

I didn't miss the bit about the Fulvietta, and I already knew they were making it (it was in the press last week). And I know it is a cross between a C and a D segment car, but who was asking for one? They are going to be the only participant in a market sector they have created themselves and will continue to occupy alone (just like those other two Fiat marketing triumphs, the Multipla and the Croma, both of which were great cars, disastrously conceived and marketed (just like the Nuova Delta). But they are making the wrong car first. As Audi know well, you build the image-formers (sports cars and high-image cars, SUVs etc) first, and the cooking stuff afterwards. Heck, even Alfa know this. So why are they trying to crack a market they crashed out of 14 years ago, with a cooking hatchback, and one available in 5-door format only, and with no performance engines? What kind of image are they trying to build for themselves? Their image should be the one that Audi purvey so successfully (classy grand tourer rather than out-and-out sports car), and this the Delta definitely isn't (although, as I said, I like it myself). I think their range of engines are fascinating and point the way for our low CO2 future, but the Delta is way too heavy to be a seriously economical car. The whole strategy is wrong - the car won't make a splash in an overcrowded market and the image is confused at best. By the time the Fulvietta comes along it will be too late (even the Delta has been postponed apparently almost indefinitely). I am sad to write this, and I write it with a heavy heart, but many years of experience has taught me that Fiat's marketing dept couldn't organise a booze-up in a brewery...

Sorry Alan but unfortunately I disagree with most of what you say.

Firstly, I don't believe anything I read in the press concerning Lancia as according to the press the Fulvietta has been on and off for years.

I for one want a C - D segment car. My Alfa Sportwagon was getting too small so I sold it. I've got two young children and this car is the perfect size for me and I don't think I'm alone. Things move on and cars get bigger. Look at the Series 1 Golf compared to the latest Mark 5 and they even do a Golf Plus now, or the Punto v Grande Punto.

Your Audi image making comment, well isn't this what Lancia think they're doing with the new Delta? BTW, Alfa will in effect be Lancia in the UK as it will all be run by Alfa UK.

"Fascinating engines, point the way to our low CO2 future? Too heavy to be a seriously economical car?" You can't have it both ways. These cars are class leading on consumption!

"Image confused at best" This car really stands out.

"Fulvietta too late" People were offering deposits to FIAT as soon as the concept came out. People are begging for it to be made.

"Even the Delta has been postponed apparently almost indefinitely" Where did you get that from? It's out next week in Italy and there were at least 50 - 60 cars there for the press and dealers launch. Oliver Francois told me that they have the capacity and could have launched the Delta in the UK this autumn in line with the rest of Europe but delayed the it due to the MiTo launch as it was not a good idea to launch a new model and brand at the same time, as most of the Lancia dealer will be new Alfa franchisees.

I think the main problem here is what people don't know they make up, pass it round to each other and then start to believe their own bull****.

Marketing - well it has been true for the last 30 odd years, but look at the new Alfa and Fiat ranges. Fiat Gp was dead in the water 3 years ago but now sales are up and the company has been turned around. Maybe the worm has finally turned. I know you view has been jaded by years of inept neglect in this area from Fiat but the proof is in the recent products and sales. The figures speak for themselves with both Alfa and Fiat market share increases in the UK and Lancia the same across Europe.



Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 13 June, 2008, 12:07:15 AM
Lets calm down. Firstly its a fact that the new Delta can never be a real quality car for a retail price of just £16,000.  Second, I know the launch of the car in Switzerland has been delayed until September because of oil supply problems, negative effect of escalating fuel costs and lack of dealer support. To answer Stuarts question, the reason Autocar like Audi and BMW is because, as professionals, they recognise good drivers cars when they push them. When Lancia introduce a Delta M3 or even an integrale journalists across europe will queue up for a ride. It amuses me when a couple of Lancia stalwarts who have never driven the car claim they will rush out and buy a new Delta, well, sorry but Fiat is looking to sell more than two cars, somebody tell me where the thousand conquest sales are coming from. If I may say this. Any new Lancia will need to challenge the likes of Bentley if it wants to succeed.

I'm sorry Peter but just read this post back to yourself and tell me it's for real!

It seems to me that most of your "facts" in fact come from the top of your head our perhaps somewhere lower down.



Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 13 June, 2008, 08:23:34 AM
I guess you mean the heart.

Of course I want to see Lancia sell well (I regularly drive current models as well as the opposition) but let me say, enthusiasts buy BMW and Audi because they are special, expensive, but special. They also get treated well by the dealer. My last company car was a current model Ypsylon (my Fiat dealer had never heard of the car) and I now run a Alfa Romeo 147 which is serviced by Neil Smith at Pershore, who thank goodness is an independant. Also, Lin runs a new Fiat Panda which Autocar (and in particular Colin Goodwin) loves.
My Glasses Guide tells me I was stupid to buy an Alfa and anyone who owns a new 159 will be aware of how savage depreciation can be. Do you expect Lancia to fair better? The general public and fleet buyers chose Golf and Focus because they are well built, easy to run and hold their price.
The industry is under huge pressure and nobody needs another ordinary car. If the Delta is something special it will sell. But the only special car I want in a moment of crisis is a low-mileage second hand Golf 1.9 diesel with full service history selling for £950.   


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 13 June, 2008, 08:37:22 AM
Motoring journalists like BMWs and Audis because they don't have to pay for them at their over-inflated list prices, and usually drive press demo cars with 5 grand's worth of extra kit which the rest of us can't afford.  Its like trying to compare apples and pears, frankly.  Do you like the £25k BMW or the £15k competitor, when you have no real interest in the cost and all you are really bothered about is how well it handles on a test track?  I've driven a BMW 1 Series for two years now, and it is not a very good car, particularly given that its a £20k motor.  No space, no kit, drab interior, uncomfortable, ugly, awful switchgear, low rent plastics - its only redeeming feature is that it handles OK, but so did the Seat Leon which preceded it, and was in every other respect a better car.  The only people who have had the good fortune to drive the Delta have so far been motoring journos, so its difficult to provide a counter argument, but I'm glad I spent an hour or so crawling all over a Delta at Geneva, and I know style and quality when I see it - and I'm not so wedded to Lancia that I won't go and buy something else if it isn't up to snuff.  C/D is perfect for me too - C sector cars tend to be a bit limited on rear legroom and boot space, D sector tend to be too big and too thirsty, whereas the Delta seems to me to offer a really useful compromise.  Autocar's relatively balanced feature last week suggested that Lancia needed to attain an 'affordable Maserati' vibe, which seems OK to me - comfortable and quick but not out and out sporting, with plenty of style.  I'd be pretty confident that with the right dealer support, the Delta will win market share, just as the Ypsi and Musa have done on the continent, and for the same reasons.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 13 June, 2008, 08:45:07 AM
Autocar magazine love Lancia. Hold fire and read the unbiased Delta road test next week. By the way I have three journalists doing the Cotswold Economy Drive, one will be driving a Lancia. 


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 13 June, 2008, 09:29:27 AM
Mr Simister by any chance?  He's old school, a gentleman and a scholar...


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 13 June, 2008, 09:45:27 AM
Autocar magazine love Lancia. Hold fire and read the unbiased Delta road test next week. By the way I have three journalists doing the Cotswold Economy Drive, one will be driving a Lancia. 

Autocar may love Lancia, but maybe not that much.

They missed half of the event, which was very informative and gave the background to the thinking behind the new Delta, and turned up late on the driving day when most people had already undertaken the long test route in one car. After lunch time was tight and it was go where you could.

I followed one of the Autocar journalists up a long boring straight road with fairly heavy traffic up towards the mountains and then back down again in the same 1.6 m-jet diesel which is fairly ordinary. The Autocar chap only drove back.

Draw you own conclusions!


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Harvey on 13 June, 2008, 09:56:41 AM
I'm hoping the Delta sells well enough (and at a good-enough margin) for Lancia to thrive, but not so well that there are millions of them on the road.

Practically every other car I see on the road is a BMW, Audi or Mercedes. I suspect that many BMW and Audi drivers are selecting that car because of the perception of quality of the marque. I've read somewhere that it takes many years of mediocrity to switch people off a badge (or just one if it's a "rusty engine mountings" story ::)) Of course, they might be constrained on their company car list, but most fleet managers are looking at the depreciation figures, and they're driven by the perceived desirability of the private buyers, so it's a closed circle.

One of the reasons I love my Ypsilon is that there are few in the country (Note: this is not the main reason!). If I have to go back to the company car list, I'l be ordering a BMW - Wincanton follows the herd in restricting choice based on depreciation  :(  - and I'd be in just yet another 320d.

I know that there's a faction pining for a new Integrale (see CLS website!  :o) but I'm looking for comfort and class ahead of raw power, and it looks to me that the Delta will be my sort of car. I've not seen one yet, so though a dedicated Lancisti I might be, I'll wait for a test drive before I send my daughters to the workhouse wave my cheque book.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 13 June, 2008, 10:02:19 AM
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Lancia-Delta-1.9-Multijet/233281/

No need to wait for Autocar's driving impressions - here they are.  And they are not impressed.  Moreover, even I might get sick of waiting if it really is July 2009 before it gets here.  Cobblers about the seat and driving position though - the seats are great, I know, I've sat in them.  Probably a fat b****** who drove it... :-X


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 13 June, 2008, 10:35:32 AM
Problem is the general public are swayed by media opinion, yours has an emotional base. And Harvey is right, fleet managers are hard on figures.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 13 June, 2008, 10:43:47 AM
Alan, I will pass your comments on to Autocar, as it seems I was wrong. Sorry. Hope young Simister (officer and a gentleman) is reading this as we want to form a team of journalists


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Harvey on 13 June, 2008, 10:45:45 AM
Perception of quality = high residuals
High residuals = on the fleet lists
On the fleet list = plenty on the road
Plenty on the road = herd effect comes into play ("If everyone else bought one, they must be good!")
Herd effect = perception of quality

Ad infinitum.

Driving an Audi is like yachting - huge pitch and yaw, and only a vague connection between the steering and direction of travel. Yuk.
Not driven a BMW recently. Mercedes C Class was bland, and the E Class felt like the QE2.

(PS - My local Fiat dealer has my car down as an Epslong, but they seem enthusiastic to look after it! I've been getting them to stamp the service book with their Alfa stamp instead of the Fiat one, too  ;))


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 13 June, 2008, 10:59:22 AM
Anyone noticed the stroke being pulled by the mendacious Autocar journalist?  We know he turned up late and drove the 1.6, briefly.  He's claiming he drove the 1.9.  I sense a journo playing the 'build it up, knock them down' game, because he doesn't actually have much to say.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 13 June, 2008, 11:14:49 AM
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Lancia-Delta-1.9-Multijet/233281/

No need to wait for Autocar's driving impressions - here they are.  And they are not impressed.  Moreover, even I might get sick of waiting if it really is July 2009 before it gets here.  Cobblers about the seat and driving position though - the seats are great, I know, I've sat in them.  Probably a fat b****** who drove it... :-X

Hold on there. He may well have driven the 1.9 before lunch but when I saw him he was in a 1.6 m-jet. You are right though he is a fat orphan, bigger than me and I'm over 16 stone!


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 13 June, 2008, 11:18:45 AM
Alan, I will pass your comments on to Autocar, as it seems I was wrong. Sorry. Hope young Simister (officer and a gentleman) is reading this as we want to form a team of journalists

I don't see the need to pass on my comments to Autocar as they know their chaps missed half the event. There's no right right or wrong to it it's a fact. Mr Simister was there but unfortuanately I never got a chance to speak to him and introduce myself as he was a late arrival on day two too.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 13 June, 2008, 11:42:48 AM
Regarding residuals with the recent downturn not all BMW's and Golfs sell for the right money.

I dispose of Company cars for a company and get to drive a lot of these cars. Last year I had a FSH, 38k miles 54 plate 325i with the M-sport pack in the dark blue metallic with tan leather. Car was immaculate for the sale and The CAP guide was between £16,500 - £17,000. Started off towards the high end - no calls. Made it more realistic - no calls. Made it a deal without being stupid - one call from a guy in Southern Ireland who was waiting for insurance money to come through. New Audi A3 was arriving so traded it against this at £13,000.

This year two Golf 1.9 SE tdi's 06 reg FSH one with 16,000 and the other 23,000 miles. 12 months VW warranty to run on both cars and both in excellent condition. Last year these flew out at the asking price. This year no calls despite being well priced and still the same rivals hanging around on Autotrader. In the end I did sell one for 1,000 under the CAP retail price and they took the other one back as a pool car.

This year my 04 Alfa 156 SW 1.9 m-jet Veloce. Cap said top money £7,400. Dealer offered £6,000 trade in. Looked on Autotrader and prices were a lot higher. In the end after 10 calls and holding my nerve I sold it in a month for £9,000. BTW the car cost me £14,500 3 years ago.

Finally, spoke to a guy yesterday who's friend bought a £70k 6 Series, hated it and wanted to trade it in against a new Jag and the best price the Jag dealer could get for the car was £44k. The 6 Series was 2 months old! Another friend got a brand new 6 Series convertible this year from a BMW dealer with nearly £20k off the retail price.

The book has now gone out the window. Are cars that are different and available in smaller numbers with a following actually bucking the trend? In my experience maybe.

Limited supply creates demand. Alfa are doing this and residuals are climbing. the Brera and 159 are loads better at holding their value than Alfa's were a few years ago.



Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: lee69 on 13 June, 2008, 12:03:41 PM
Having read the Autocar "article" I wonder if the RHD cars will be any different in their driving position?  I suppose it all depends on the 'shape' of the floorplan, associated pressings and other technical gubbins.  I've driven Corsas in both LHD and RHD and the UK car, despite being a dog's breakfast Corsa, felt like it had more room in the footwell.  Our two LHD smarts also had better positions than later RHD ones.


By the way, if you guys did want to compare apples and pears I can oblige....

http://www.riverford.co.uk/produce/produce_categories.php?ProduceHeaderId=8&PHPSESSID=aaeb81015018a81fb32c74862d2f8ad7

Personally not needing a C, D or even B class Lancia, but looking forward to the A sector posh Topolino!  Mind you if I need to rent a car in Italy this summer I know what I'll be asking for.

Lee


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: inthedark on 13 June, 2008, 12:05:50 PM
In my opinion (and it's important to me) all this talk is just talk, I presently drive a Gamma, never the most popular Lancia, a gentleman's coupe
and an aquired taste,  I think the new Delta will also be an aquired taste as well as a car for people who always long to be different.

May not be the same now but years ago Ford & GM used to export large amounts of cars to Jersey for 6 months to boost the export figures,
cars came back as seond hand and not on the import stats.

Hire car companies buy blocks of cars at seriously reduced rates, again to boost sales figures, theses moves obviously ensure certain
models become  "most popular" vehicles

It's all a game and unless you know the rules you will have to accept other people opinions.

Geoff


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 13 June, 2008, 02:02:30 PM
So, we are looking for a journalist who weighs more than sixteen stone and works for Autocar. I can only think you mean Steve Cropley only he is not quite that big. If I see him in the press office at Le Mans this weekend I promise not to mention anything. Honest. Anyone else going to the big race this weekend?


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 13 June, 2008, 02:22:16 PM
More from Autocar - intriguing...

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/233343/

A new Stratos or Monte successor - so its not just luxury motors perhaps?  And some intriguing details about other model plans too.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 13 June, 2008, 02:25:58 PM
Peter - the Autocar journo we are all loving to hate appears to be one Matt Saunders, see:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/anythinggoes/archive/2008/06/12/lancia-must-try-harder.aspx

Horse's head for Mister Saunders...

As of 5.30, I've added a comment to Saunders' blog, expressing forthright opposition to his views.  Stitch that, fat boy... >:(


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 13 June, 2008, 02:26:40 PM
Im trying to catch up. Do we renew our subscription to Autocar or cancel?


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Scarpia on 13 June, 2008, 04:35:33 PM
Whilst the horse's head negotiates the uk postal system towards mister Saunders I have just read his article and fear dreadfully that he sums up what we may be preferring not to admit or be thinking.

To be fair he "sounds" as disappointed as I "feel" seeing the u tube videos.I find myself trying to pursuade myself to like it because its a Lancia rather than thinking "wow".It looks like a mix up of bits and pieces which is not a polite way of saying its authentic or individual either. If I feel like that , i guess not too many none lancia fanatics outside italy will care much or pay a premium for it.Nevertheless its a step further along a long and difficult road.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 13 June, 2008, 04:43:33 PM
I think it unfair that someone called it an Italian 'pipe and slippers' car. I dont agree, at least, not entirely


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fay66 on 13 June, 2008, 05:43:46 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if just for once all the motoring Hacks could actually write a subjective report on any Lancia without mentioning,

(A)Lancia leaving the UK Market in 1994

(B) Rust- a rubbish statement as far as anything from Thema & Dedra onwards is concerned.

(C) they were awful vehicles- more rubbish, I've had 2 Themas 5 Dedra's and I still think they were great driving cars of their period and certainly better than a lot of the competition.

(D) Does any Hack ever praise anything that isn't a Ford or German? or if you don't mind boring but reliable, Japanese.

(E) It wasn't rust that killed off RHD Lancia it was P..s Poor Marketing and Opposition Model targeting.

After this lots reporting, God help us when Clarkson gets around to his usual put down rubbish.

While as Dedra Adviser I've certainly got an axe to grind, I can assure the sceptics that my experience of them since 1992 has mainly been a very happy experience, mostly fault free and certainly not prone to the usual supposed Italian Electrics Gremlins. with the feed back not only coming from the UK, but much of mainland Europe, With the odd report from Israel, Egypt & North Africa as well as the few odd ones in South Africa & New Zealand.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: westernlancia on 14 June, 2008, 07:52:16 AM
You are missing the point with the Delta. It's a 21st Century car and a cross between a C - D segment car.
LANCIA ARE MAKING THE FULVIA CONCEPT. IT WILL BE PRESENTED AT THE GENEVA SHOW 2009!

Sorry Alan but unfortunately I disagree with most of what you say.
Firstly, I don't believe anything I read in the press concerning Lancia as according to the press the Fulvietta has been on and off for years.
I for one want a C - D segment car.
Your Audi image making comment, well isn't this what Lancia think they're doing with the new Delta?
"Fascinating engines, point the way to our low CO2 future? Too heavy to be a seriously economical car?" You can't have it both ways. These cars are class leading on consumption!
"Image confused at best" This car really stands out.
"Fulvietta too late" People were offering deposits to FIAT as soon as the concept came out. People are begging for it to be made.
"Even the Delta has been postponed apparently almost indefinitely" Where did you get that from? It's out next week in Italy
Marketing - well it has been true for the last 30 odd years, but look at the new Alfa and Fiat ranges. Maybe the worm has finally turned.

Hi Alan

Sorry this reply is so late - spent all day yesterday painting a Fulvia! I think we are in lots of ways singing from the same hymn sheet, but you are not quite getting what I am saying. I am NOT saying the Delta is a bad car - I love it, but that's not the point. I love my Kappa V6 - it is absolutely the best car that I have ever owned or driven.  I also have an 88 BMW 730i, and the Kappa is at least 10 times nicer to drive, as well as having much more character (but I must admit it is nowhere near as nicely finished). The reason itís not in the list of cars I own below is because I was embarrassed to mention itÖ

But how many Kappas did Lancia manage to shift? 12000 a year. And how many 730is did BMW manage to shift? I don't know, but shedloads in comparison! Yes, some of it is down to the press, but not all of it (even the Italian press weren't particularly complimentary about the Kappa, and I long ago gave up reading British car magazines, which I think are rubbish - I read most of the stuff I get the info from in Italian and German, as both those countries seem to have a much better quality motoring press). Lancia's biggest problem is marketing, and it always has been. They are bl**dy useless at it, and it is largely because the marketing seems to be directed from Italy, and I can tell you as someone who works with Italian, used to live there and knows the country and culture very well that it is very different there from here. The guys in Turin just do not 'get' your average Brit Chav type, who was brought up on Fords, thinks Escorts won more WRCs than anything else, and thinks the Freelander is the best car on the planet. Personally I think these people and their views are idiotic, but the bottom line is that this is the market that these cultured, Armani suit-wearing, urbane individuals from Piedmont have to crack - and they haven't got a chance now and didn't in 1993 - after all, the Integrale is a zillion times as nice as any Ford, but that didn't cut much ice back then either!). And trying to flog a 5-door hatchback in an image vacuum isn't the way they are going to do it, even though we all know it is a good - possibly great - car, and might or might not be creating a new market segment (it is too heavy though - see quote later).

However, that's not the point. Whether Lancias really are good cars and/or are better than BMWs and/or whether the press says so is not what I am talking about. I am talking abut trying to crack a market in the correct way, and this they are most emphatically not doing. Whether you for one want a C-D segment car is irrelevant (I do too, but unfortunately there is little evidence that anyone else does). On what have they based their marketing analysis that there is a market for this car? Everyone knows that what you do is set up the image first and flog the cooking stuff later. Audi, which we both agree is what they should be aiming for, do this. They don't bring out the Audi A3 1.9 Sportback diesel (which is what the Delta is closest to) when they are trying to crack a new market. They bring out the TT the Q7, the RS4, etc. We all know that these aren't the cars that actually SELL in big numbers, but they are the ones that impress the neighbours, the people outside the school, your son's friends, etc. When you have brought out that kind of stuff, the A3 Sportback diesel sells itelf, but if you brought out the A3 Sportback diesel in a new market first it would sink without trace.

My son goes to a private school in Exeter, and the cars the Yummy Mummies there are driving are also what Lancia should be emulating. I see Merc Estates, Audi TTs, soft-roaders, and stuff like that. Almost no 'sensible' 1.9 diesel hatchbacks, because a lot of these are second cars and their function is to impress the neighbours and the other Yummy Mummies, not to be practical. I am sure a lot of these people have Golf diesels too but they donít show them off outside the school!

Lancia don't market the rally cars properly to the Chavs and the rally fans and they don't market the upper middle class stuff (which should be their real market - in Italy they are still known as 'Gentleman's cars') properly to the upper middle classes. Instead they bring out a car that no-one is going to aspire to! People aspire to hatchbacks, but not when they have 5 doors (again, I am not taking about my preference - I prefer 5 doors myself, but I have  Kappa and an S1 Appia so I am a saddo and they have got me sewn up as a market anyway. Unfortunately, though, like a lot of enthusiasts, I am not their target market because I haven't got the money to buy a Delta (most of mine goes on school fees!).

Re. engines and weight - this is another long-standing Fiat cock-up! They invented the common rail diesel engine, which was light years ahead of what everyone else had. So what did they do? Keep it in their own cars and use the advantage to wipe out everyone else's? Nope, they licensed it to Bosch, so everyone now has them except VW, who still prefer to produce Pumpe-DŁse tractor engines) and so they have no 'unique selling point'. We are in agreement that Fiat's engines are the best on the planet, as I am reminded every time I drive the Kappa after the BMW (so what's new?), and their cars have great fuel consumption, but they are nowhere near as economical as they could and should be if they were lighter. All Fiat Group cars are outrageously heavy, segment by segment, for their size, and this is NOT good engineering - and more to the point it goes against Lancia's traditional brand values - the 'greats' like the Aurelia weren't overweight, which was exactly why they performed so well - and indeed, one of the reasons the Flaminia wasn't a great success was because its extra weight destroyed its performance and economy in relation to the Aurelia). Raymond Loewy, designer of the 53 Studebaker, Burlington Zephyr train and the Coke bottle among other things, had a sign above his desk. The sign said 'weight is the enemy' and this is true for EVERY car - weight compromises both performance AND economy, and as the way forward is to produce ever more economical cars, they have got lots to do with regard to weight reduction (not least because their engines are so good that there's not much they can do to improve consumption there! And don't tell me about the groundbreaking engines they have got lined up for the near future (MultiAir etc.) - I know about those already, but they STILL need to concentrate on weight reduction if they are not to squander the potential advantage conferred by these engines). At least they have a head start, because they are the only EU manufacturer currently on target to meet the EUís silly CO2 range targets (I am a climate change scepticÖ). Letís hope they can build on the advantage, because experience tells me they will squander it!

Re. image confusion  the car might stand out, but standing out as a 5-door hatchback won't matter because no-one will notice or aspire to it. I have been driving the Kappa, which is one of fewer than 10 in the UK, for nearly a year now, and only 1 person has commented on it (and he was the owner of the local scrapyard!). And how much more distinctive can you get than there only being 10 in the country? People 'blank' cars that don't fit into the groups they aspire to, and unfortunately nowadays that is sports cars and soft roaders. I would like to say it was interesting small cars like the Fiat 500 too (I would love Lancia to produce a retro Appia!), but unfortunately in Exeter the only ones I see are cluttering up the forecourt of the local dealer. I have seen precisely one on the road, which I find worrying!

I really, really, really want these cars to succeed. II have been into Fiats and Fiat group cars for over 35 years (I don't even really count Alfas because my interest in the cars stems from when the Fiat Group was Fiat, Lancia and Ferrari, and Alfa were 'the enemy', owned by the Italian State and operating from that 'other' town 200 km away from Turin...). I have loved the cars since I was 14 in 1972 (when my Dad bought a 125 Special), and as evidence I still have my old school folder, which has Fiat logos doodled all over it!), but since I have been into the cars the story has been one of decline and marketing incompetence, interspersed every now and then by a car which is 'make or break' for the company (I have articles in my collection which say that about the Fiat Uno (the only car I have ever bought new), the Dedra, the Grande Punto, and probably several others. The Fiat Group is like a drunk lurching along the edge of the pavement, every now and then teetering precariously and nearly falling in front of a bus...

Re. ďpeople were offering deposits to FIAT as soon as the Fulvietta concept came out, and begging for it to be madeĒ - that's exactly my point. The concept came out in 2003 and it is now 2008 and the actual car is still not out. These muppets don't even make the right cars when they KNOW the market exists for them. I wrote a German text book in 1997, and I got a sneak preview shot of the new Beetle on the cover. It was out within 2 years, and yet it has taken Fiat another 10 to come out with the 500, and Lancia STILL haven't made the Fulvietta. They really haven't got a clue! And it's not been FIAT (capitals) since circa the 1920s, when they changed to lower case...

Re. indefinite postponement - I wasn't taking abut the Italian launch, but the Brit. one. Olivier FranÁois might be bullish about the British market and have plausible reasons for postponing it, but the bottom line is that we still have no firm date for their entry to the British market, and I suspect that behind the scenes there are a lot of headless chickens...

Re. marketing - I wish  could agree with you, but I remain sceptical. In view of how nice they are, Alfas don't actually sell very well at all (Lancia's relatively tiny total sales figure still beats Alfa's, at least until the arrival of the MiTo, largely because of home-market Ypsilon sales). That isnít a sound basis on which to build a future (the Fiat Group's problem for the last 15 years or so has been largely sales outside Italy - it is very dangerous relying on the home market).

I will leave the last word (I have to go and do some more Fulvia painting!) to Luca de Meo, recently appointed i/c Alfa (what is true for Alfa is true for Fiat and Lancia too, as the engineering is so widely shared). He says in the Telegraph article below that the cars are too heavy and that they all need to go on a crash diet (the Brera is way too slow and heavy, and its CO2 and economy are disastrous for a car in its market sector, hence the recent request to Prodrive to sort out a bit). Here is what Sg. de Meo says (it's about half way down the article):

''Mr. de Meo remains tight-lipped about the rumoured Alfa Romeo SUV model, although it still remains a possibility at the end of the decade.

"Alfa Romeos need to be compact, agile, pretty powerful, beautiful and with a good engine noise. It's not rocket science, but it's difficult to actually do," says Mr de Meo. "We need a step change in the way we do business - if we fix the industrial side, it's almost done."

Mr de Meo also thinks that the current generation of Alfas are too heavy and, as part of the refurbishment, he plans to send every current model on a diet, reducing the weight of each by 110lb (50kg).''

And here is the link:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/02/01/cnromeo101.xml

Right - off to get that spray gun primed...



Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Scarpia on 14 June, 2008, 08:12:19 AM
exactly my sentiments.Everybody would want a Fulvia or a new integrale just like people want the 500.Its really not so complicated.Image and aspiration are important. and the market we ned to be in is posh/sporty rather elitist cars to take market from Merc/bmw /LR freelander/etc (But its a retro aprilia they should make instead of the retro appia as that overlaps too much with the 500 which is doing well already.).


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: westernlancia on 14 June, 2008, 08:32:13 AM
exactly my sentiments.Everybody would want a Fulvia or a new integrale just like people want the 500.Its really not so complicated.Image and aspiration are important. and the market we ned to be in is posh/sporty rather elitist cars to take market from Merc/bmw /LR freelander/etc (But its a retro aprilia they should make instead of the retro appia as that overlaps too much with the 500 which is doing well already.).

You're dead right - Aprilias are the greatest cars in history! It's just that I like Appias! Actually, the nicest car  have ever owned was an Ardea which I owned for a time last year and then sold to Gerald Batt, who still has it - I took my son to the school in it, and there was one delicious moment when I was going down the road and there were two Yummy Mummies facing the other way, both in Freelanders. One was trying to park, and she couldn't get her huge, unwieldy tank within 3 feet of the kerb. The other was coming slowly and hesitantly towards me, obviously thinking either I or she would have to stop because there was only a gap of about 5 feet between the Freelanders, otherwise there would be a huge crash. Instead I shot between them at what seemed like a huge speed but was probably about 25 mph - the Ardea is only about 4 feet wide. I still remember the look of horror on both of their faces as I performed this hugely irresponsible but massively pleasurable act, and it merely confirmed what I already knew - that all modern cars are too big, too wide and too heavy!


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 14 June, 2008, 08:39:23 AM
So, we are looking for a journalist who weighs more than sixteen stone and works for Autocar. I can only think you mean Steve Cropley only he is not quite that big. If I see him in the press office at Le Mans this weekend I promise not to mention anything. Honest. Anyone else going to the big race this weekend?

Mention what you want it doesn't bother me, in fact I'll wait for the magazine to come out and then probably send them a letter.

I've found out who the guy was, Matt Saunders who wrote the two online pieces.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 14 June, 2008, 08:43:59 AM
Lee

Why knee jerk on one one journalist has said about offset pedals? IMO he's being very pedantic. I never noticed this and no one else mentioned it.

Stick him in an old 1980/90's Alfa 33. He'll know what offset pedals are then.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 14 June, 2008, 11:14:16 AM
Fair enough and I totally agree on the UK Marketing bit and have told them (Alfa UK) in writing about this as the new Delta strapline is: "The Sign of Difference" I pointed out that I could already see some motoring hack rubbing his hands with glee as he signed of his article on the new Delta with "or is it really just The Sign of Indifference"

Finally, Can you tell your mate Li Hou to cease taking selective posts by you and me from this thread and posting them on Pistonheads to promote himself and his Club?

The c**k obviously can't read as I've put it in black and white twice on Pistonheads and indeed on here that I am posting as an individual making my own comments, but it suits him to "out" me as a spokesperson for the LMC trotting out "LMC policy" as if I've been briefed to tow some sort of party line like a New Labour spin doctor. 

As far as I'm concerned the only policy of the LMC Press Officer is to promote the Club and all Lancia cars in the UK. He and his cronies are the only people I see perpetuating this pre-post Fiat (That OK for you Alan?) myth to further their own aims but will in fact actually take any Lancia on board as they are so desparate for members whether it's a "Sport" based Lancia or not.

I've given up responding to this c**k, so he probably thinks he's "won", but I'm pretty sure most people will be able to make their own minds up.

Good luck with the Fulvia.

<Edited by Harvey to keep it family-friendly>


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 14 June, 2008, 11:36:40 AM
Whilst the horse's head negotiates the uk postal system towards mister Saunders I have just read his article and fear deadfully that he sums up what we may be preferring not to admit or be thinking.

To be fair he "sounds" as disappointed as I "feel" seeing the u tube videos.I find myself trying to pursuade myself to like it because its a Lancia rather than thinking "wow".It looks like a mix up of bits and pieces which is not a polite way of saying its authentic or individual either. If I feel like that , i guess not too many none lancia fanatics outside italy will care much or pay a premium for it.Nevertheless its a step further along a long and difficult road.

I too was of this opinion but wait to you see it for real driving around and get a drive yourself. Mr Saunders missed half of the event and seems to be a bit pieved that Car Magazine got a go the week before, stating that this could be why they gave a favourable review. Looks like it could work the other way too.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Alan Temple on 14 June, 2008, 11:40:15 AM
Wouldn't it be nice if just for once all the motoring Hacks could actually write a subjective report on any Lancia without mentioning,

(A)Lancia leaving the UK Market in 1994

(B) Rust- a rubbish statement as far as anything from Thema & Dedra onwards is concerned.

(C) they were awful vehicles- more rubbish, I've had 2 Themas 5 Dedra's and I still think they were great driving cars of their period and certainly better than a lot of the competition.

(D) Does any Hack ever praise anything that isn't a Ford or German? or if you don't mind boring but reliable, Japanese.

(E) It wasn't rust that killed off RHD Lancia it was P..s Poor Marketing and Opposition Model targeting.

After this lots reporting, God help us when Clarkson gets around to his usual put down rubbish.

While as Dedra Adviser I've certainly got an axe to grind, I can assure the sceptics that my experience of them since 1992 has mainly been a very happy experience, mostly fault free and certainly not prone to the usual supposed Italian Electrics Gremlins. with the feed back not only coming from the UK, but much of mainland Europe, With the odd report from Israel, Egypt & North Africa as well as the few odd ones in South Africa & New Zealand.

Brian
8227 8)

Here here Brian. Unfortunately this is what the car and brand is up against. Having driven loads of Golfs, Audi A3 and BMW 3 Series across the ranges I know what I'll be choosing to drive when the cars arrive here.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fensaddler on 14 June, 2008, 12:36:57 PM
There is an English language 'configurator' at http://www.thedeltaproject.eu/index.jsp?sez=12&lang=en&merc=en which allows you to look at colours, wheels, specs etc.  I'll be playing later, once the more pressing business of the day is done with... ;D


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Scarpia on 14 June, 2008, 03:12:03 PM
I just have "played" and it looks actually a lot better in the configurator than on the video.maybe there is hope after all....


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 16 June, 2008, 10:41:31 AM
Hi Alan T, Does LMC have a press officer, it would be a good idea and Im fully in favour?


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: inthedark on 16 June, 2008, 11:56:21 AM
Alan Temple,
I would just like to make a small point, CLS has always been a club for all Lancias not just sporting versions
the fact that many members have sporting Lancias is because they enjoy sporting events which CLS caters
for. Most people know I drive a Gamma which is not considered to be sporting in any way I am a member of
both clubs because to me they offer different events, I attend as many as possible and will continue to do so.

Geoff Holmes LMC member 11924, CLS member 1176


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 16 June, 2008, 12:12:24 PM
I watched Audi win at Le Mans and the old saying sprang to mind. 'Win on a Sunday, sell on a Monday'. Could work again for Lancia.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Harvey on 16 June, 2008, 02:01:56 PM
Now there's a thought. There seems to have been speculation around Lancia dabbling in motorsport again through the F1 route, but Le Mans might be a more interesting option. I'm not one for following motorsport, so this is my tuppenceworth given in ignorance, by the way, but here goes...

Audi's current motorsport publicity has come from it's diesel-engined success at Le Man, proving the car's reliability and performance. I would see Audi as occupying the sector that Lancia sees itself in: comfort with performance, excellence in engineering, etc. How about seeing a twin-turbo diesel Delta thundering round the Le Mans circuit? Would the associated publicity of a good position be enough to offset the costs incurred?


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: peterbaker on 16 June, 2008, 02:25:48 PM
Good thinking. However Le Mans is all about sports cars and prototypes. It is a far out possibility that a one off Fulvietta could run, but unlikely. I think we are following the same train of thought used by Fiat in deciding Abarth and Alfa should go brand racing/rallying leaving Lancia as the 'down the golf club', 'quick and comfy', soft option.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: lee69 on 16 June, 2008, 05:42:15 PM
Lee

Why knee jerk on one one journalist has said about offset pedals? IMO he's being very pedantic. I never noticed this and no one else mentioned it.

Stick him in an old 1980/90's Alfa 33. He'll know what offset pedals are then.

Alan, if that's his biggest criticism I don't think the Delta can really be that bad.  It didn't seem bother the Stratos design team did it ::)?

As one who spends a fortune on overpriced newspaper advertising and sees sod all inclusion of my press releases by 'journalists', I'll happy to apply my knee in any way!

Lee


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: lee69 on 16 June, 2008, 05:45:03 PM
I watched Audi win at Le Mans and the old saying sprang to mind. 'Win on a Sunday, sell on a Monday'. Could work again for Lancia.

Does Maserati have the Fiat group monopoly on Le Mans?


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Harvey on 18 June, 2008, 10:46:36 AM
I knew my ignorance would show through!  ::)


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Kevin MacBride on 18 June, 2008, 12:21:32 PM
Interesting reading, 'specially where Fiats marketing (or lack of it) is concerned. I have worked for Fiat dealerships for the past 30 odd years. I'm not an executive or anything, left secondary school and a week later found myself in the parts dept sweeping the floor. y only claim to fame is winning an award for 'inventing' a car battery that charged itself (in theory, but it worked) and racing my B20.
When the Croma (new model) came out, I wondered why didn't Fiat simply stick a Lancia badge on it, and Hey Presto, they would have had a RHD Lancia at low cost.
Anyhow, they didn't sell that well (at all), so imagine my surprise some years later to see dozens of these cars appear in Ambulance Guise in our workshops under a service contract for our Health Service. at last, I thought, Fiat have done thier work and sold a load of Cromas. But no, the Health Service simply imported these cars themselves from the UK.
Maybe I should have gone into marketing, and got a job with Fiat.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fay66 on 19 June, 2008, 01:24:18 AM
Hi Kevin,
Don't really know why it never sold here as I was quite impressed with the ones I looked at in the showroom, & plenty of room as an ambulance (Paramedics?) I would have thought

Same goes for the Idea, how come so many Musa are sold on the continent yet the sales of the Fiat version appear to be Zilch or very near so, only thing I didn't like about it was the usual Fiat Dire choice of interior colours chosen by someone who's colour blind!
(Sorry to any colour blind readers no offence meant, that's the PC bit done) ;D

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: sparehead3 on 19 June, 2008, 10:28:39 AM
none taken


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: Harvey on 19 June, 2008, 12:25:32 PM
"And the wheel," said the Fiat CEO, "what about this wheel thingy? It sounds a terribly interesting project."
"Ah," said the marketing girl, "well, we're having a little difficulty there."
"Difficulty?" exclaimed the Engineering Director. "Difficulty? What do you mean, difficulty? It's the single simplest machine in the entire Universe!"
The marketing girl soured him with a look. "All right Mr. Wiseguy," she said, "you're so clever, you tell us what colour it should be."

With apologies to Douglas Adams.


Title: Re: New Delta
Post by: fay66 on 19 June, 2008, 09:32:39 PM
I shall have to reread my Hitchikers ;D

Brian
8227 8)