Lancia Motor Club

Hi, better introduce myself, my new car and ask for some advice.  My names is Ian, a long standing car enthusiast, and I have wanted a Fulvia since I was young.  I had a poster of a works car on the Monte Carlo rally when I was young and the beautiful, elegant shape is ingrained in my mind.  Guess you all get that.
The only thing stopping, or delaying, me from getting one is a 20 year love affair with an old 911.  However, this year a great opportunity presented and I finally bought my Fulvia and then had to figure out how to tell the long haired bank manager about it.  We got over that fairly quickly when she saw it and later said she might quite like to drive it, something she has never said about the 911.
It is a '73 Series 2 1.3S in red with a cream vinyl interior.  Nothing special in the big scheme of things but achingly beautiful. 
The car has been sitting in a show room for 17 years and has not run in that time.  It seems very complete and standard, apart from a fibre glass bonnet which was explained by the garage. 
My plan is to give it a thorough service, including the brakes, drawing and flus( the fuel system, fit electronic ignition and drive it once it has been through MoT.  This will just be a sanity check that all is well as the car is exempt.
Three questions for now please;
I have noticed Lumenition and 123 seem to be the readily available ones.  Could I please get views/facts on which one to go for
The brake fluid reservoir seems to have a weep/seep around the ring of bolts holding the plastic tank to the metal body.  Is this a simple gasket change and if so from where?
Finally (for now) I see a few people have fitted a Filter King, I assume to improve fuel filtration.  Is this the best option?
Look forward to your responses

Thank you

Ian

I fitted a Filter King to follow the electric fuel pump I installed in the boot to obviate the necessity to churn the engine for half a minute to pump fuel through the mechanical pump and up to the carbs.  The Filter King is then used to regulate fuel pressure (though it is possible to find low pressure pumps suitable for carbs).     I would suggest an inline filter as well, before the pump, as the fuel tank is likely to be pretty mucky.    Make friends with Omicron who will give very good advice (as well as selling you expensive but good quality spares including some made from unobtanium).
You may be lucky enough to have unworn carbs but many leak around the spindles and need to be rebushed (Omicron) in order to get a steady tickover.    I would suspect the accelerator pump diaphragms as well as the rubber carb mount.    There should be a support to stop the carbs from waggling around but the rubber is still liable to harden and crack.     Also, increase the "slow" running jets from 50 to 60 to cope with modern petrol and run it always on super grade of at least 96 octane (Tesco do 99 octane which seems to work especially well).   I wish I had had a fibreglass bonnet incdentally!
Don't forget to fit a complete set of new tyres, the ones on it will be iron hard and have zero grip (Sorry, Grandmother, eggs).
Yes, brake fluid reservoir is simple gasket (so far as I remember).   See various threads about vacuum servo and study the technical information thread.

Excellent, some good advice here, thank you David.  I had planned on changing the tyres for the reason you state.  Are there any recommended ones?

Re gasket change on the master cylindre, take care with the small allen bolts holding the plastic cover on, they can corrode horribly due to steel/al electrolytic action. If you shear one then it will be a pain to drill out and replace it/them - may then involve removing the m/c - and that is best avoided unless absolutely necessary

Soak well in your favourite un-seizing (dégrippant) liquid beforehand

Re ignition - consider the keeping the standard set up, it is very reliable in my opinion. I had an intermittent fault that was difficult to identify and was eventually traced back to the electronic ignition

Welcome to Fulvia motoring !

Thanks Simon, useful tip on the MC and I’ve got some Wurth penetrating oil which is quite good.  It’s good to know that the points are not all bad, but I think ive convinced myself there is likely more trouble in points than electronic ignition.  I will continue to canvass option for a short while though.

Any more thoughts and recommendations?

Thank you

Ian

A number of years ago  I fitted a simple ignition unit that just uses the points as a switch, while all the load is taken by the electronic unit.
Only failed me once in that time, which was down to something I did.
Because the points don't wear, once the initial wear of the heel has taken place and you've readjusted the points, I haven't had to reset mine for years, just check them every now and again
Brian
8227
 8)

Thanks for this Brian, so we seem to have more votes for points at the moment.  Interesting!

The master-cylinder to reservoir seal is a large rubber 'o' ring that sits in a groove in the plastic reservoir. If you can't find one to fit, I think I have one spare.
Colin

Thanks Colin, I will bear that in mind if I struggle to find one.  Much appreciated.

Regards

Ian

Welcome to Fulvia ownership, you will love it.Re points versus electronic, I have stayed with points,on my 1600HF and have never had a problem, I just keep a spare set and a condensor in the car,as a just in case moment. Tyres ,I am running Firestone, but mine are a different size to yours. One last bit of advice, ENJOY

Thanks Roger and I do hope to enjoy it once it’s running, especially having read a few test reports

I will have owned my 1971 1.3S for 25 years tomorrow. I still can't think of another car I'd rather have when it comes to looks, performance, handling, visibility, boot space, cheap insurance etc. There are a handful that always attract my attention like the Alpine 110, Alfa Bertone coupes etc but the 110 would be a squeeze for me at 6' 1" and no practical boot space (and huge prices now). As far as the others are concerned, I wouldn't risk any disappointment. A case of the devil I know. For the money, a Fulvia is still the best engineered sports car around (I'm biased). You'll really enjoy yours once it's sorted.

Thanks Stanley.  I’ve had my 911 20 years and echo everything you have said about your Fulvia in the 911. I look forward very much to understanding how it will feel in comparison, although I won’t be comparing (if that makes sense)

Ian

Thank you all for your responses so far.  The next question relates to the rear bumper.  It was wobbly when I got the car home and when I undid the two mounting bolts I quickly found out why.  I can see you all nodding, knowing what the problem is!  The mild steel mounting bracket on one side, which is welded to the stainless bumper blade, has rusted nearly through.  Does anyone repair these?  Nice without the bumpers though.......

Thank you

Ian

Another point on fuel pumps is that some people fit an electric pump just for priming then switch it off when the engine starts.

Oh dear, is the standard set up so weak it needs this?  Is this common on a standard 1.3 S or more for HFs and similar?

Nothing weak about it, a Fulvia including my 1091cc 2c Berlina that has the the two twin choke carburettors will start using the right procedure for your Fulvia which is a bit of a suck it and see situation when you first try starting one.
But, all fulvias will churn over on the starter and eventually fire after dragging the fuel up, but if you have any mechanical sympathy its painful to the ear and you need a good battery, all the electric pumps do is pull the fuel up without having to grind the engine over on the starter, once the fuel has been pulled up I then switch the electric pump off
And start the car normally.
The electric pump can also be used as a back up if at any time the mechanical pump fails.
Some however have completely replaced the mechanical pump and use an electric pum only.
Brian
8227 8)

Congratulations on your purchase. I am sure that you will enjoy it once you have done the necessary fettling.
Regarding tyres there are various posts on this forum about Fulvia tyres and quite a few owners are using Falken Sincera tyres with good results.

The electric fuel pump decision is yours but can I suggest you keep the mechanical fuel pump in the circuit as well? If in good condition they are very reliable and electric pumps do only have a certain life. Maybe if you fit an electric pump (our daily driver throughout the year is a Fulvia GT or GTE with no electric pump) , just use it for priming after the car has sat for a while.

Jacky and I are fortunate enough to have each been Fulvia owners & drivers since 1972 to date and aircooled 911 owners and drivers since 1986 to date (currently early narrow bopdied Carrera 2 Coupe non varioram which is a joy to drive and a late 993 twin Turbo which is seriously quick).
Fulvias and 911s are obviously two totally different cars but both exhibit great design and quality of engineering although sadly not the same quality of build bodywise. I know 911's rust but at least Porsche addressed the problem properly in the late 70's. Both models both drive totally differently and yet both are great fun and very effective driving machines with great cross country 'A road' performance.

Mind you, we both think our standard Integrale Evo 2 has the slight edge on both of them on that sort of drive.
Chris

Brian, Chris,
Thank you both for your advice.  The key thing is reliable motoring really, hence my thoughts on electronic ignition etc.  How do you determine whether the mechanical fuel pump is in good condition, is there a recommended flow rate or pressure it should achieve?

Any thoughts also on the rear bumper problem I mentioned earlier?

Thank you

Ian

You don't have to worry about reliability unless you really prefer electronic ignition. I've driven without any ignition problems for 25 years with the standard points set up. Electric fuel pump,  either to prime or use permanently was the best thing I've fitted. Really saves the battery especially as most Fulvias are fun cars that aren't used every day. Some people fit an electric pump with a Filter King fuel pressure regulator. A search should bring up the threads. Can't help with the bumper problem.....

I agree with Stanley. If the distributor is in good order there is no real need for electronic ignition. And a supplementary electric fuel pump is a good idea if the car is only used occasionally. We use our Fulvias very regularly so no problem with the original mechanical set up.
Chris

Quite often the distributor is not in good condition: try to move by hand the rotor arm up and down and see if there is a lot of play. If so, the distributor stem needs new shims, otherwise the timing is erratic all the time at each revolution. This occurs because few people regularly add a couple of oil drops to the hole in the distributor baseplate: on some distributors the hole is marked "oil", not on all of them, Andrea

Re. tyres, there are di scussions elsewhere regarding tyre sizes and various wheels!   My 1600 is on alloys and I use http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Firestone/Multihawk.htm   which seemed a reasonable combination of grip and fuel economy and cost very little more than Kumho.    I don't use the car so much in the winter and don't drive quite so fast as I did and they suit me well but chaqu'un a son gout.   Of course, really you should fit Cinturato!

Thanks Andrea,
Very similar to my 911 which I do oil, good advice.  So if the distributor is tired/poorly maintained what would you do?  Fit another one or go for the 123 option?

Ian

Thank you to those commenting with good advice on fuel pumps.  It feels like the best route is a permanent electric fuel pump alone, do away with the mechanical one in case its performance is variable.  More food for thought (and a growing shopping list)

Ian

Never known a fispa type mech pump be "variable" in performance and has already been said they are reliable. If you go electric only you can get a blanking plate for the mech pump (from Omicron) this saves the engine from working a redundant pump (if original ie 50 years old they start to leak engine oil over time) and gains a 1000th hp. Fit a filter king down stream of the pump (most fit silver top Facet in the offside front inner wing) - 3psi is setting for the filter king.

Re tyres 165 14 80 are available by Barum (Brilliantis II) at very reasonable prices and handle/look very good.

 

The answer is to fit an electric pump in parallel to the mechanical pump
with a switch for the electric pump.
Makes starting the car when its been standing for a few days much
easier by turning the electric pump before starting. My B20 started first press of the starter button today. It also
helps with the new petrol on hot days. On the Appia it helps on steep hills.
If the electric pump fails you can get home on the mechanical.

Ref: distributor. It is often possible to pull out the distributor and reshim it at its gear end. The free play should be 0.1 mm, not more. You will need a small punch to drift out the split pin.
A good way to check for distributor wear is to see if the ignition timing is the same for #1 and #4 cylinder: if it is not, then it is distributor wear, timing chain wear etc.

Electronic ignition: on some Fulvias I fitted it and not to others. These modules mighty be prone to trouble due to high engine bay temperature and vibrations. You should however fit an electronic voltage regulator as the old type sooner or later will fail.
All my Fulvias have electric fuel pump in parallel (Facet model). Andrea 

Thank you all so far, great advice.  So the Facet goes on the list and a Filter King.  Does anyone have a photo of a Facet installed in the engine bay?

Ian

Here's mine which I think is a pretty typical set up for the pump. It's a Facet Silver Top. I haven't yet got around to fitting a Filter King but these tend to be mounted by drilling and bolting through the lip that overhangs above on the wheelarch box section. Since this photo was taken I have replaced all the piping with the original style green transparent type. I was convinced by an opinion of long time Fulvia owner Chris Gawne. That was the fact that he has known rubber piping to develop unseen cracks that he has seen spray fuel, whereas although the plastic type hardens over time it never cracks. Looks nicer too.

My filter King came with a bracket that is ideal for mounting where suggested.
Personally I still like the belt and Braces of the priming pump if ever the mechanical pump fails, as a matter of interest my pump isn't a Facet, and it is also fitted adjacent to the fuel tank.
Brian
8227  8)

Perfect, that’s really useful Stanley.  Many thanks

Ian

Thanks Brian, was there a particular reason for mounting in that location, avoiding heat etc?

No particular reason as far as I'm aware, I just asked the people who look after Fay for me to fit one.
I'm not even sure what make it is, but it's been fitted over 10 years now and it's never missed a beat, at least not up to now!
Filter King was fitted mainly because of the rubbish I was still getting through from the tank at the time, previously I had one of the chrome and glass inline filters, but it had a habit of persistently undoing itself and spraying petrol about!
Brian
8227 8)

Some electric pumps are described as pushers and some as pullers. I think the Facet type (both the cube style used mostly for priming/backup, and the type like Stan has fitted) are described as pushers and are optimum near the source of fuel hence fitted in the boot but I have fitted both types to a lot of Lancias in the engine bay and so long as the head it trying to pull is not more than 30cm it works fine. The bonus is you can hear the pump  work and pull fuel through if using it for priming so when its beat slows down you are good to go. While it has been stated that plumbing in is in parallel to the mechanical pump I prefer serial so fuel filter before the electric pump before the mech pump. If using a silver top style Facet instead of mechanical then as it has its own fuel filter in its base I fit a filter king to provide secondary filterering and pressure regulation between the pump and carbs.

Brilliant, thanks Tim, this is such useful advice. One of the reasons for trying to eliminate as many potential issues as possible is that my lovely wife has decided the car is so pretty she might like to use it. I want it to work without fuss.  I am grateful for all of your comments regarding the reliability of points and the mechanical pump, but each can have issues and there are simple effective ways of eliminating them without changing the character of this beautiful car. 

Thank you again

Ian

And that's why I've stopped using stainless steel braided hose on the Stratos replica, especially under the higher pressures an electric fuel pump can generate. Having seen the atomisation a split pipe causes when it sprays through the braided hose. I'd always recommend using the latest fuel injection hose whatever system you have, it'll be resistant to unleaded fuels and will last.
Guy

Good point but just to clarify a carb pump is at 3psi and an injection pump is at 10bar. Avoid the cloth braided hoses as well.

Thank you and good point about the ethanol issue.  Is suppose I should replace the fuel line end to end with modern material to resist the ethanol.

As Tim suggested, I avoid any cloth braided rubber fuel hose these days as this is what I have had a couple of problems with. I have thrown away all my unuised cloth braided fuel hose as well. The cloth braiding disguises the degradation of the rubber hose but when it goes, the fuel spray travels far and wide. Very dangerous.
Chris

Ian, as you're trying to 'future proof' your Fulvia you might want to look at this post I put on the forum some time ago. I can't claim any credit as I was following an article by Neale Shepherd in VL. But it is something that's simple to do and gives you peace of mind.....


http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9972.0

Vehicle Wiring Products are one of the suppliers selling "CODAN 3133 SAE J30 R9 " E10 rated Ethanol resistant fuel hose. Rated at 10 BAR pressure. It`s not cheap at £16.00 per metre inc. vat & delivery, but supposed to last 25 years and cheaper than a fire!

Thank you.  Has anyone replaced the fuel lines end to end and have comments on how easy this is.  Anyone using the Millers additive to counter the Ethanol issue?

Thanks Stanley, that's a worthwhile read and a job to add to the list but to be done earlier than some of the others.

Ian

I use Millers VSP. Used to use Castrol Valvemaster Plus but can't get that here in France. My UK stash ran out in 2013 so been using Millers for 5 years.  Apart from valve protection they claim it counteracts ethanol problems. So far no evidence of any problems in the fuel system. You could still take the belt and braces approach and use the piping mentioned too.

Just to add the original Cavis plastic (blue) pipe is resistant although it loses it flexibility over time (it did anyway with ordinary fuel). But dont use similar as those are not resistant .

Stanley, Tim, thank you.  I guess that as the car has not been started for 17 years it won’t have had any ethanol fuel in its system.  I will start by drawing the tank, removing and flushing and the re-fit.  Whilst it is off it’s probably worth seeing how easy it is to replace the fuel lines.  Does anyone area schematic showing the layout of the fuel lines, or has anyone replaced these lines (assume feed and return?)?

Thank you again

Ian

Ian

You should acquire a parts catalogue (a cd  can be had from http://www.viva-lancia.com/specials/cd/fulvia-cd.php or elsewhere but be careful of choosing the correct cd(s) for your car) as these give all the schematics and more...

That’s useful, thanks Tim.  I have the workshop manual but wasn’t aware there was a parts catalogue.  On order!

Ok your responses have helped hugely so far, thank you all.  One question/problem as yet unresolved relates to the rear bumper and the fact that one of the mounting brackets has rusted away and the other isn’t too good.
It seeems this may be fairly common so I wondered if anyone knew of a fix, new brackets etc?

Thank you

Ian

I had the same problem, on the rear nearside brackets, so I drew up a profile in Illustrator and sent the files off to be lasercut. Had 4 off made, in stainless steel and then took them to a local welder who welded all 4 on (I ground off the offside ones). The only problem then was a bit of blueing and the inevitable ‘used look’,so... I had them polished (which was expensive!).

Feel free to use them. Any laser cutting place can do them, The pdfs are for reference, the .ai & .dwg files would be what the lasercut people need to load into their computer; so I’d supply it all.

[EDIT: I’ve not been able to upload the crucial .ai & .dwg files, so if you could PM me I’ll send you them] {EDITED AGAIN: Sent them via email}

Stephen

Thanks for this Stephen.  Was there a particular reason for designing them in a different shape to the originals, was it due to the thickness of the stainless?

No. As I remember that was the shape that was already there. Mine’s a Series 3.

What I normally do is a mock-up; print out a paper copy, stick it to some fairly hefty cardboard, and trial fit it.

One other thing to budget for, is a replacement rubbing strip. Those M6 bolts are usually corroded solid and heating them only loosens the other end of the bolt moulded into the plastic type rubber.

Thanks Stephen

Hi IanC

I've just fitted a 123 electronic distributor to my berlina and it was straightforward and the results are good - smoother tickover and acceleration. I got it from Huib here http://www.viva-lancia.com/

Re the brake reservoir yes there's a rubber seal e.g. https://www.google.com/search?q=fulvia+master+cylinder+rubber+seal&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=2KDlDE2aasEb9M%253A%252CEPuYzmVRZI-I6M%252C_&usg=AI4_-kQO-VaKlKvS7QR17zUwcUQEUUw7Ag&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRlLX2urTfAhUISxUIHcQZDEkQ9QEwA3oECAUQCA#imgrc=2KDlDE2aasEb9M:   

I've bought one from Omicron - they will know what's what

Cheers

David

Thanks David, that’s useful to know as this was the one I was considering.  I assume buying the 123 from Holland was more cost effective than UK or is there no UK supplier?  Was there anything else you were advised to buy with it, plug leads etc?
Thank you also for the advice on the seal.

Ian

Ian, was this car in Kent?

No, it was in Buckingham in a garage in the centre which apparently was a Lancia dealer.  I understand they took the car in part ex against a new Dedra in 1989 and kept it.  It was parked in the showroom in 2001 and didn’t move until I bought it this year. 

There's a Fulvia site here in France - www.pieces-fulvia.com which a few people here have used including myself. They recommend uprated leads and coil with the 123 distributor.  Take a look, it's all in English. Well, Google English.

Wish I'd known as the Lancia Dealers son is  friend of mine🙄
I shall have to ask him if he knew it was there?
Brian
8227  8)

That will be John then?

No Mike.!

The Buckingham Lancia dealer was in Bridge Street just south of the river and is now W Ganderton & Son with a Pace filling station.

I have a headed note pad Mike gave me, as soon as I see him I'll ask him if remembers your Fulvia.
Brian

W Ganderton indeed and the car even has a Ganderton Lancia dealer sticker in the rear window.  I thought I was dealing with the owner’s son, John.  It was him and his brother, not sure what his name was, running the place and this was only May this year.

I hope he does as it apparently sat there for a while

I'll find out if Mike has a brother named John, perhaps it was a new owner trading as Ganderton's.
I shan't see him now until after Christmas, but I'll see what I can find out.
Brian
8227  8)

Did Mike used to work in Motorsport race teams?

Don't know but I'll ask him as soon as I see him.

Ian,
I've just caught up with Mike and below is his reply that seems to answer all your questions, and clarify the situation!

"Brian all of the dates seem to stack up for me.
I’m part of the family but have had nothing to do with the garage since 1969 when I left home.
The business is now run by John (junior), and his brother Peter, (but brother John still is a partner).
I have nothing to do with motor sport now but up to last February Peter worked for Red Bull as left hand front wheel man in pit lane crew. His wife still works there on IT side.
Mike"
Hope that helps, and adds a little to your Fulvias History.
Brian
8227 8) 

Thanks for confirming this Brian, at least it chimes with what I thought I knew.

Regards

Ian

Thought I should add a picture of the car.  Nothing special, just very lovely!

About time too! Very nice. Why did I have an image of a white one in my head?

Nice big barn too!

All Fulvia's are special!
Brian
8227  8)

Well, after a break with no activity for 3.5 years I’m back on it!  Hope you haven’t been waiting….  Blame Covid, trying to retire and failing.  I’m on the brakes now and they’re all stuck.  I’ve freed off the front callipers and got them off the car, they have no boots strangely and need a rebuild, which I will be doing as long as I can get the pistons out.  I’m also replacing the flexi lines all round due to age.  I also need new brake pad retaining pins as some silly person had fashioned a set out of brake pipe with a flared end and the other end just bent over……
So the question today is about where to buy parts?  Omicron's website seems to be down for maintenance, but Ricambio's is running and they seem to have all the parts I need.  Is their stuff decent quality?

Thank you
Ian

I've had parts from Ricambio which have all been good, but their range is more limited than many. Omicron have most things and are very helpful if you give them a call - from a conversation I had recently I wonder if they are putting together a new site with selling facility, they were aiming for that. I've also used Pieces-Fulvia in France a few times, they have an amazing range of stock and deliver quickly.

Thanks Andy, appreciate the response and advice.

Next question.  I need to drain the cooling system to replace a couple of perished hoses and wondered what is the capacity of the system?  Knowing this will ensure I use an appropriately sized receptacle and mean less clearing up.

Thank you

7 litres  (but less  will come  out..).

Recommend a good flush out and refill with 50% concentrate Blue Glycol base antifreeze. Wilko does a  good concentrated Blue in 5  litres....

Excellent, thank you for the prompt reply and the advice.  There’s little worse in car maintenance than watching an undersized container fill quickly with the realisation that you need something bigger. 

After draining the coolant, 4.6 liters are necessary to refil (heater valve fully open), Andrea

Thanks Andrea, good point regarding the heating system

Regards

Ian

Advisable to use "blue" coolant that contains additives (including inorganic polyphosphates) fully compatible with the Fulvia engine. Red or orange coolant is not recommended. These additives decay after 2 y regardless of car usage and this is why it is good practice to replace the coolant every 24 months. Andrea

Thanks Andrea, again, useful advice.  After replacing the two coolant hoses that run from the bottom of the radiator up to the heating matrix I refilled with Bluecol which should be the right stuff I hope. 
It’s interesting at this stage to reflect on the quality of this car after a few jobs including stripping the brakes, callipers, coolant hoses etc.  everything has come undone readily and just seems well engineered.  It has been quite a revelation and I’m really looking forward to the next couple of months as I move toward actually starting it.

And the next question.  Is it simple to replace the fuel line running from the tank to engine, is it one pipe etc?  I guess there is also a return?

Thank you

Ian

Yes, no hard job. On S2/3 cars there is a return line. It is a good idea to remove and clean the fuel tank. Andrea

If you're lucky you'll have a brass connector for the fuel filler pipe/tank join. If you haven't you may not be able to get the plastic one off without breaking it, but you can replace it with a brass one.

https://www.pieces-fulvia.com/connection-nut-for-fuel-tank-lancia-fuvlia-coupe-all-models.htm

If you have to do that you'll have to de-solder/re-solder the pipe at the top end (just use a blowtorch) to get the new connector on to it. Don't forget to put the re-soldered end back to its original position regarding the fuel cap locators. Also, buy a new gasket for the connector.

Thanks Andrea, Richard, appreciate the advice.  Are there any particular suppliers of the hose you would use or recommend?

Ian

High quality hoses for fuel lines now must bear the date of manufacture. Andrea

A bit of decent progress today in terms of moving toward starting the car.  It seemingly hasn’t run since 2001, so that combined with my luck meant it wasn’t going to be straightforward!  After removing the old distributor we fitted the new 123 version and got it set up once the timing marks were found.  A new Varta battery fitted, new plugs and leads and some fresh fuel into the tank.  Off we went.  Well, not exactly.  Turned over really well so that side is good but did not fire.  Checked spark at the plugs and it’s ok but the plugs were dry.  No fuel getting to the engine. Checked pump function by disconnecting the supply pipe into the pump and putting it into a cup of fuel, it sucked a bit but not much and not as much as expected.  Removed the pump which seems to be a Fiat item and tried working it off the car with a fuel supply and it didn’t work.  Is the pump pictured below the right pump and can there be issues with the push rod/actuating rod in terms of shortening with wear?  Thank you.  Ian

 An original should look something like this:

 

Sorry but that is an after market pump. Originals had an oval body made by Fispa stamped on the pressed steel lid. That one should work though. The push rod should protrude from the housing (I dont have the spec off hand but it is in the TD) and thickness of the gasket (s) may be an issue.

The pump fitted to Ian's car does not look right. I suggest to replace it. Ideally a second hand pump from S1 cars is the best as long as it is serviceable (with a removable clean filter). Otherwise modern aftermarket ones can be OK. However, while shopping for a pump at the Padua classic motor show, we noted that several new pumps (still in their boxes) had a very stiff or actually blocked mechanism that could not be moved by hand. Worth checking carefully what one buys. Andrea

BTW, the fuel pump should send out fuel at a pressure in the range 2-4 psi. Higher values give carburettor problems, Andrea

May be worth buying one of these to play with. Cheap, effective and near enough the right pressure. Wouldn’t suggest permanently using it as your fuel pump, but a handy thing to have for testing.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/323857045463

I fitted a replacement pump from Omicron about 20 years ago.
Today coming back from theTewin Car Show, there was a very strong smell of petrol.
When I stopped I could hardly believe my eyes as one of the brass stubs had pulled out of the pump body! Why now after 20 years?
I have RAC cover with my policy with Hagerty so I rang the help line, within about 25 minutes a RAC man turned up, and using chemical steel epoxy adhesive refixed the Stub into the pump body, and within 50 minutes from ringing the RAC, I was on my way home with the problem fixed.
Pretty impressive that!
But still puzzled why now?
Brian
8227 8)

Thank you all again.  I’ve ordered a new one from omicron and it wasn’t expensive at £34.  On to the next challenge.  After taking off the old pump I noticed that the pushrod and that activates the pump had a burred end and thought I would remove it from the housing.  It wouldn’t come out. Could anyone please help with comments on how this should be done (I’m sort of hoping the answer isn’t “it should just pull out” because it won’t)

Thank you

Ian

Does anyone have any idea if the current price of the Esso synergy 97 or 99.
I've just rang my local esso shop/ Petrol station at Shefford bypass.
And no one seems to know, or is prepared to tell me how much they are charging, as they only display E10 and Diesl prices!
As it happens its the nearest place to me that sells E5  and where I normally fill up, but I know previously that it has always been pretty pricy.
Brian.
8227 8)

Can anyone help with my question above please regarding the fuel pump actuating rod. 

Thank you

Ian

It should  pull out.... I thought I had typed that in my previous response. The cam at the other end may have burred it over. The arrangement is like a Chinese jigsaw inthat you have to pull the pushrod out before you can withdraw the cover over the oil pump drive/fuel pump camshaft

Thank you, I was afraid of that.  It’s stuck, probably due to burrs.  I will have another go using another method but don’t want to damage anything.  I guess part of the problem though could be that it is now too short to work effectively.  Interesting challenge so if anyone has figured out a way to remove a stuck pin then please let me know.

The push rod is a sliding fit in the support hole in the front cover. Depending on  the damage you may need a new front cover. This is something I have not come across Possibly the end has mushroomed if a fuel pump has seized but otherwise the load is low. S1 andS2 push rods are different lengths. I may have a spare push rod.... (and front cover)

Thank you again, useful.  I guess the simple thing to do is try the new pump to see if the rod is long enough to produce enough pumping effort.  If not then it needs replacing, obviously.  Thank you also for the offer of parts, I will see where we go once the pump is fitted.

I forgot to say I’m slightly wary of applying too much force in trying to remove the rod in case I end up with bits of broken burred metal circulating in the engine. 

Ian If you can draw it out by force you can take the cap off the drive housing remove the drive and use a magnet etc to clean up any swarf. The challenge is to make an extraction tool. Is it Series 2?

Thank you, yes it’s a series 2.

I assume you can remove the alternator spacer block off the fuel pump mounting studs?

Yes, the spacer block comes off without a problem.  I assume this is a good thing but it doesn’t appear to help in getting the rod out

Well, after a break (yes, I know, it’s ten months since I last did anything) due to many distractions it’s time for an update or two.  To make it easier to digest I will try to address each topic by itself giving time for comments.
Brakes
Last month I finally finished off the brake calliper rebuild after fighting with those bl**dy metal rings that hold the boots on for a while.  Everything has gone back together quite well, although I wish that I had noted which side the short hard lines from the callipers go.  I’ve also fitted a full set of new flexi pipes.  Two questions/requests for help here if I may;

When I come to bleed the brakes is there a particular order for the front ones, bottom pistons first or top etc?  Or because they are separate it doesn’t matter?

Second, the master cylinder may have a seep/weep so I should probably give it a clean up and quick rebuild as the kits are available and inexpensive.  Apart from bench bleeding before refitting is there anything special to note about the MC?

Thank you again

The second topic is around the fuel system.  After trying to sort the car last year I found that the fuel pump was not working and also that the actuating rod was burred and stuck in the housing.  You gave some useful advice, thank you, and I have managed to extract the rod, I also have a new fuel pump from Omicron.

Having looked at the stroke of the rod (ie how much it moves back and forth when you turn the ignition) I'm not sure there is sufficient movement to make the pump work. Which means that the rod is too short or the cam that moves it is worn.  The cam doesn’t look worn but I don’t have any measurements to determine the correct size of it.  The rod is 87.60mm long and at the cam end is worn to a curved surface.  Having looked for a new rod the longest I can find for this car is 85.30mm, which is obviously shorter than the one fitted, about which I have suspicions anyway.  So in my mind if the correct length of the rod for this engine is 85.3 then the cam must be worn.  Does this make sense and if so can anyone help with cam measurements.  I will attaché a picture of the cam and rod.

Second, after trying to get fuel through to the pump it became obvious that something was amiss at the tank end, quite a lot of rust came through the pipe which thankfully was not attached to the pump (I used a vacuum gun to draw the fuel through).  I first removed the sender to look inside and saw some horrors, as well as the sender being rusted solid (picture below).  Despite looking perfectly sound from the outside the inside is rusted behind recovery, the sender too (the long haired bank manager is now frowning…).  I then removed the drain plug to find the screen totally blocked with jelly-like fuel remnants.  Two questions if I may;
I assume (dangerous…) that due to volumes there’s only one manufacturer of fuel tanks and the variability in pricing is down to individual business margins.  Are they the same tanks or is there something else I should know about buying new?  Thank you
Second, if you have bought a new one what have you treated the outside with, anything you can recommend such as Wurth Stonechip?

Thank you again for any advice, comments and recommendations.  I will get it running this year.

Apologies, forgot to add the pictures

And more

Re brake bleeding of the front calipers, on my RHD car I bled the left front lower first, then the right lower.  Then I bled left upper followed by right upper.  With the master cylinder on the right of my car that means I started furthest away. If your MC is on the left you should reverse this sequence. I used the traditional bleeding method.

I documented my approach which you can find if you search here on the forum for "brake bleeding problems - possibly master cylinder".

That same post gives step by step approach for master cylinder overhaul on the S2.

Re fuel tanks, I think the Fulvia Coupe tank is unique and not shared with other Manufacturers.  They seem to be readily available, but in the £600 to £700 range I think, with tax and shipping.   I had mine split and overhauled using the Renew process - for about £300.  That was three or four years ago and I've  been happy with the result. My thread "Slow S2 rebuild", also here on the forum,  covered the fuel tank and related issues.  There's an index on page 51.  It might prove helpful.

I can confirm the push rod should be 85.3mm. I could possibly source a good oil pump/ fuel pump drive shaft but you may have to take the front pulley off and extract the worm drive, also possibly the oil pump. Pragmatic solution is to fit a Facet silver top and Filter King regulator. PM me if you want a shaft...

Re bleeding, the the small front calipers are on same circuit as rears and I always get the rears bled first (its a slow process). If your master cylinder is weeping you need to carefully check the the bore for corrosion when you have stripped it down. Check first before buying a kit!

Really useful, thank you both.  So I am now clear on bleeding and the tank, less so on the actuator.  I have to assume the cam is worn then.  In the photo it looks like you can replace it, there’s an Allen key bolt holding it on.  Does anyone have any clue about what size these cams should be originally and whether replacements are available!  Or does anyone have a spare anywhere?

Thank you again
Ian

I have never seen a separate cam just the shaft as confirmed by the parts book - no separate cam listed.

I have never come across a worn fuel pump lobe.......but could you be using thick gaskets? This would reduce the ability of the mechanical fuel pump to deliver enough fuel. Also is the plastic insulator the correct one.  Just a thought.
Chris

Thank you Chris.  I just used the paper gaskets supplied with the new pump, they didn’t seem overly thick.  You mention a plastic spacer.  I assume you mean the one through which the rod goes?  If so mine is not plastic, it’s an alloy casting with fins.  I did think that if the cam was worn for whatever reason I could get an 85.30mm rod and have some material milled from the alloy spacer to enable the rod and (assumed) worn cam to work together and pump fuel via the new pump.  It may just be easier to get an electric pump as has already been mentioned.

Apologies, when I said plastic spacer I meant insulator

S1 has a thin plastic type spacer. S2 has a finned alloy spacer that doubles as alternator fixing point.

It seems a PO has already tried a longer rod to compensate for cam wear. Once a cam wears through its hardened surface it really is only fit for the bin.

Thank you for clarifying this.  It looks like you should be able to change the cam though as it’s held on by an Allen headed bolt.  As no-one has mentioned this I assume it’s not an option then?  So I have no choice but to go for an electric pump?

As I said there is no part number for the cam alone. I think the allen keyway may be to assist installation. If you try to remove (pull out) in situ there is a shim washer under the worm drive that could fall off into the engine.

An electric pump is a good addition so long as you get a good make. Fulvias tend to need a lot or churning before they start if they've been left standing for a few days. I've never got to the bottom of why this is, it wasn't a problem with the one I had back in the 1970s.

Facet seems to be the favourite, used by the top guys,  although inevitably they're expensive compared to the ones on Ebay and similar. You might need to get a pressure regulator, Omicron should be able to advise and supply.

I have fitted Facet and Filter King with excellent results.

Thank you again for clarifying.  I received an original Lancia drawing from Robert with useful dimensions relating to the actuator and its engagement with the pump.  The drawing suggests that if you are struggling to achieve the dimension then you should machine the spacer to suit.  I’m going to give this a go as it was my original thought and clearly something the factory allowed.  I’m still not clear on why this issue exists because the cam face does bot look work.  All I need to do now is work out how much to reduce it by.

Thank you also for comments on the Facet fuel pump, although it’s a shame to have to fit a pressure regulator as well.  I will look at options if I exhaust the possibility of getting the current arrangement to work. 

Regarding your petrol tank, mine started leaking at the top. Presumably due to condensation after the car hadn't been used for a number of years.

No problem I thought, I'll just put a petrol proof patch on it. It worked, but within a very short time I found another leak on the top and then another and another ad nauseam! No real alternative but to buy a new one which came from Autobella with a very long guarantee. The old one had also lost a small piece of degraded hard plastic that was used, ironically, inside the tank's coarse brass fuel filter. This had earlier caused fuel starvation when it got sucked into the fuel line, partly blocking it.

The fuel tank was quite easy to fit, although one of the many fixing holes wasn't quite in the same position and the original filler pipe cap has to be de-soldered and re-soldered with a blow torch. You will need a new gasket for the filler pipe/tank connection and possibly a new brass nut if you have a plastic one as it will probably break when you undo it.

I honestly don't think it's worth messing around with a Fulvia fuel tank by trying to repair it. Knowing that you have a good, safe, clean fuel supply for your engine is very important.

Thank you for your thoughts and advice.  The new fuel tank seemed an obvious solution due to the amount of rust inside.  I’m not sure what was actually holding it together to be honest.  I did have to cut the plastic nut holding the filler neck to the tank as it wouldn’t move. I was surprised to find that the new brass nut wouldn’t go onto the neck without de-soldering the filler cap end of the neck and removing it.  I can solder so it’s not difficult.

I have just finished rebuilding the master cylinder internals which were far more complex than expected.  Beautifully engineered though.  I’ve attached a picture of the constituent parts and if you look closely you should be able to see multiple sets of radial holes to enable flow. 

Looks easy to make a mistake when it's reassembled! I find my phone camera absolutely invaluable whenever I do a job on the car that I'm not familiar with. A boroscope/endoscope is also really useful for all sorts of jobs, especially when looking into areas where one otherwise requires the flexibility of a snake!

Well I hope I have it all in the right order otherwise it won’t work…..looking forward to testing this!

A quick question for those that have fitted a new fuel tank, is there some sort of seal that sits between the tank and the lip, a foam seal maybe?  There wasn’t one when I removed the old tank and to be honest it looked like it had never been removed, the paint was absolutely pristine around the lip.  Any other comments and advice welcomed such as what protective coating you used on the outside of the tank.

Thank you
Ian

No seal at all, I protect the joint between the chassis and the tank by spraying it with waxoyl, Andrea

No seal on mine, though it's probably a good thing to put something there. Maybe a silicone bead? I guess it's unlikely that you'll ever have to remove a new tank.

I used these putty strips from Woolies - rolled them out to an appropriate thickness and applied them to the boot opening.   I think they are labelled as body caulking on the Woolies website.

Thank you all, it shows our thinking is aligned in that we believe we should put something in there.  Although I have to say I’m still quite amazed at the condition on the lip in the boot floor.

I have finished the rebuild of the master cylinder and am about to refit it.  With the seal kit came a new cap for the reservoir.  When you compare old and new it’s obvious the old one is quite tired so the new one should be fitted.  But the new one doesn’t have a vent hole, whereas the old does.  I can see a reason for both versions, but think it should be vented.  Any thoughts either way on this?  Thank you

Ian

The way I see it is that a closed system might cause a problem, whereas a very small vent in the cap is tried and tested over decades. The enemy of brake fluid and indeed the whole system is moisture, as most brake fluids are hygroscopic. That said, there have been some developments for certain DOT rated fluids that greatly reduce this issue.

This came up on ebay.it.... Nice cam on end....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325351634564?hash=item4bc077f684:g:MAQAAOSwpdJjKyyn&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4ID%2FunYbO3kU1vi9TP%2BlzEuAosVA9uLAjtEr8fvEayUhRdwLdYBrJbA5TxswwI2qVwoxyeyjrXOdHWaOEzP3UnL5D1fKtLexXG8KdXUxbMRgSusEUa3IYNFZjUvygQ%2BxD0Fs87ynCdttXsrLWsSbHV%2BxmfRzVUk7dopOZyWaIDbf3geWNp%2BD6drPOymFY2AzXjNv6dT0pVslhzCw7eqBymBIJ4hjiw%2BeL%2FKXqjyCE0QpEmvmNyPpp03%2FQZGvGpRdA8Ea4hepsmHtc%2FbzLxGDD9fnAIBy0ZuZ10xL6xnVrHWo%7Ctkp%3ABFBM3o6Lq8li

Thank you for this but it says Series 3 and mine is a 2.  No idea of what the differences are if any..

Thank you, I agree so will be making a small hole as per the original.

No difference

I fitted the new fuel tank yesterday, which was another good step toward getting the car running.  When I say 'fitted' it’s not quite correct as I could only get six of the ten bolts to line up.  I recall mention in a previous discussion about this issue so guess it’s not unusual, although it feels a bit off paying over £600 for something that doesn't fit…….

I guess a little getting with a rotary burr will enlarge the holes in the right direction, which leads me on t9 the next challenge.  I think I’m in the middle of giving up on the mechanical fuel pump due to this anomaly with the actuator.  A few of you have recommended just going to an electric pump such as a Facet.  There is a Red Top kit supplied by Tanc Barrett which seems to be configured for the Fulvia and doesn’t need a pressure regulator.  Seems like a good fit.  Now, I’m not a bad engineer, quite practical, but have always been defeated or befuddled by electrics so the big question is, how easy would it be for me to wire this in?  Also, where have all of you fitted them, is there a standard place?  Grateful again for any thoughts, instructions,photographs, diagrams etc etc
Thank you

Ian

On Page 2 of this thread there's a photo of a typical mounting position. Some people like to mount them under the car near the fuel tank, but I like to put things where I can keep an eye on them, so mine is pretty well in the same position as the one in the photo.

Regarding wiring, obviously it should be via the ignition feed, but I would use a relay with an in-line fuse. I would take the feed for the relay from the fusebox (can't remember which one but it's fuse no. 8 or 9 - just use a cheap circuit tester to determine which one). The "outlets" are on the top of the fusebox.

Oops, sorry - correction!  I didn't use a relay on mine. I took the feed from the lower terminal (the unfused side) then added an inline fuse - no relay used.

I fitted mine in the boot too it hides behind the plastic trim (but mine is a Sport so different trim configuration?).

On Page 2 of this thread there's a photo of a typical mounting position. Some people like to mount them under the car near the fuel tank, but I like to put things where I can keep an eye on them, so mine is pretty well in the same position as the one in the photo.

Regarding wiring, obviously it should be via the ignition feed, but I would use a relay with an in-line fuse. I would take the feed for the relay from the fusebox (can't remember which one but it's fuse no. 8 or 9 - just use a cheap circuit tester to determine which one). The "outlets" are on the top of the fusebox.

Oops, sorry - correction!  I didn't use a relay on mine. I took the feed from the lower terminal (the unfused side) then added an inline fuse - no relay used.

Thank you, I had completely forgotten about that picture.  I’m glad someone is paying attention!

[/quote]