Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Dedra, Thema and Delta (2nd series) => Topic started by: Angle Grinder on 07 September, 2018, 06:08:48 PM



Title: No Spark No Fuel
Post by: Angle Grinder on 07 September, 2018, 06:08:48 PM
I'm throwing this out there as I'm stumped.

Series 3 16v i.e. Thema 2.0 (non Turbo)

Car started drove to end of street, went to pull out into traffic and car suddenly died and felt just like a timing belt snapping)

Got car towed home and checked timing belt (only done about 7K miles since change, but you never know). Timing belt was still intact.

Checked fuel supply and no fuel.

Ran power feed to the fuel pump and it is fine. Checked fuse for fuel pump and it is OK. Checked voltage at fuses... nothing. No power going to fuel pump. So swapped around position of the 2 relays that I think are on the fuel pump circuit and no change. Haven't got any spare relays so it might be a relay issue, but the relays arte no longer available Bosch P/N 0332 014 140

Checked for a spark and no spark.

Changed the Crank Sensor (what a pain that was as the old sensor was firmly in place). New sensor fitted (not quite the same housing as original but same connector and has correct P/N cross ref). New sensor has a gap of ~0.6mm to the wheel, old one had a gap of 0.7mm (I assume that will be within tolerances).

Cranked engine and still nothing.

I'm stumped. Has anyone got an S3 wiring diagram. I've only got S2 diagrams.
  


Title: Re: No Spark No Fuel
Post by: fay66 on 08 September, 2018, 01:15:11 PM
Hi Mike, I've just emailed you ref wiring diagram.
Brian
8227
 8)


Title: Re: No Spark No Fuel
Post by: frankxhv773t on 10 September, 2018, 08:59:26 PM
This is a bit left field but might it be a relay activating a fuel cut off as if it had been in an accident. It's a common fault on Zafiras and mine only runs if I have the relay shorted out. The origin of the problem is in the ECU which I somehow never get round to replacing.


Title: Re: No Spark No Fuel
Post by: Jaydub on 11 September, 2018, 10:16:52 AM
Hi Mike
If you have no spark your fuel pump relay won`t work. It`s a safety feature on any Ignition/ Fuel Injection integrated system such as Bosch Motronic, which I think yours is. The engine will have some brown earth cables mounted somewhere, usually around the inlet manifold area. These are crucial because they are the earth path for the ECU and commonly corrode/ break, so worth a good check for security etc. Check that the ECU is getting a 12 volt feed ( usually pin 1 but refer to wiring diagram). Check coil supply voltage also. If I think of anything else I will inform you. Good Luck.


Title: Re: No Spark No Fuel
Post by: Jaydub on 11 September, 2018, 05:04:12 PM
Hi Mike, update on my earlier post.
I think that maybe you have a Digiplex Ignition. The ECU for that should be on the Left inner wing area. Disconnect the plug, connect a meter between Pin 6 and earth, turn on the ignition and there should be 12volts.
Check continuity between Pin 10 and earth. Pins 9 and 11 should be 12 volts from the ignition coils. I think the Fuel injection system ECU is in that area as well. disconnect the plug from that and check continuity between Pin 1 of that ECU and Pin 3 of the ignition ECU. They receive voltage from the control relay in the fuse box.
Hope that helps. Good Luck.


Title: Re: No Spark No Fuel
Post by: fay66 on 11 September, 2018, 10:10:16 PM
Hi Mike, update on my earlier post.
I think that maybe you have a Digiplex Ignition. The ECU for that should be on the Left inner wing area. Disconnect the plug, connect a meter between Pin 6 and earth, turn on the ignition and there should be 12volts.
Check continuity between Pin 10 and earth. Pins 9 and 11 should be 12 volts from the ignition coils. I think the Fuel injection system ECU is in that area as well. disconnect the plug from that and check continuity between Pin 1 of that ECU and Pin 3 of the ignition ECU. They receive voltage from the control relay in the fuse box.
Hope that helps. Good Luck.
Jay,
According to my Series 3 W/S Manual
 the 16v and Vis have the Motronic 1.7.
While the Turbo takes the Motronic 2.7.
Brian
8227
 8)


Title: Re: No Spark No Fuel
Post by: Jaydub on 17 September, 2018, 11:10:27 AM
Hi Brian
Sorry, been away working at Spa 6 hours Classic since last Thursday. All my Autodata Fuel Injection and Electronic Ignition Manuals from early 80`s to 2000, do not mention a Thema after 1992 so I wasn`t aware of that. Many thanks for the information.
John


Title: Re: No Spark No Fuel
Post by: Angle Grinder on 17 September, 2018, 11:17:16 AM
It's OK... just got it fixed today (with some professional help).

It was a Fuel Pump relay after all. I had originally thought that this was the problem, but then discounted it as bridging the 87 Ė 30 pins didnít get the motor running. What Iíd missed was that the ECU and Fuel Pump are energised by this relay and it has two 87 pin outputs, so when I bridged the relay I was only energising the fuel pump and not the ECU.
 
Auto Electrician went straight to the relays as he said heís fixed several TVRís this way and they use the same type of relay which is apparently quite rare these days and a common TVR failure.


Title: Re: No Spark No Fuel
Post by: Jaydub on 18 September, 2018, 10:27:52 AM
As a point of interest. When I was involved in diagnostics I encountered many fuel pump relay problems and found that in 90% of the time I could remove the cover, resolder the dry joints and they would then function for many years after. So definitely worth a try on hard to find/ expensive relays.
John


Title: Re: No Spark No Fuel
Post by: Angle Grinder on 18 September, 2018, 10:30:22 AM
Worth a shot, but I suspect my bad relay is beyond solder as I can actually hear stuff rattling inside it!


Title: Re: No Spark No Fuel
Post by: rogerelias on 18 September, 2018, 09:32:56 PM
When I was a AA Patrol ,years ago, I used to carry made up cables with connectors on to check pump relays, by bridging the connections, this was before OBD systems, used it for years   :)


Title: Re: No Spark No Fuel
Post by: Angle Grinder on 18 September, 2018, 10:46:47 PM
I actually did bridge all the relays, but the issue with the faulty relay is that it had two "87" pins energised at the same time so I was only energising one of the "87" pins when I bridged the relay. I should have checked the wiring diagram closer.