Lancia Motor Club

Following six months of not being able to work on Lancias due to mental incapacity and other commitments it is time to get one of my Lancias back on the road. The Y10 is the most useful everyday car so it is up first. Y10s are prone to damp under the floor mat in the boot and consequent condensation internal misting up. Over the years theories have been bandied about ranging from leaking rear washer unions to condensation caused by the exhaust heating the floor. I'm pretty sure in virtually every case it will be the dreaded rot even if you can't see anything amiss. This is what is left of the rear corners of my apparently tidy Y10. A rebuild is underway involving extensive use of CAD technology (Cardboard Aided Design).

Whatever the cause the solution is the same...

Keep the photos coming - and hope you can hear me cheering you on.

"Every half hour done is a half hour less to do".

Fingers crossed for long warm evenings and clear dry weekends when you need them...

Chopping out has begun. It's a devilishly complicated conjunction of panels.

Lovely!!!

Over the weekend cardboard aided design continued, some patches were cut and today I started to dial in my welding. The seam at the bottom is where I ended up which I think will do. The challenge is to repeat it consistently.

I wish I could weld like that!

Some funky curves.  What are you using to cut?

I'm using an electric jig-saw with a metal cutting blade for those bits David. I decided the lower part of the inner reinforcing moulding needed to come out to allow access to attach new metal behind. I now have patch 1 and patch 2 in place. Next that reinforcing moulding has to go back in.

Complicated...I expect very gratifying.

Looking good.  The sort of job that can only be done for the love of it.

Here is a picture of the jig-saw and another of all the tools that are in service for this job. It takes rather a lot of clobber!

Today's work has seen the boot inner panel and the inner wing patched. It would be much more satisfying if I could get the knack of running consistent, even welds but hopefully practice makes perfect.

The thing with ugly welds is that you can always grind them back to something pretty...and if its still ugly add a bit more...(etc, etc, etc...)

Rain has stopped play this morning but I need to shop for more consumables.

I am trying to preserve the paint finish outside what will be covered by the rear lights. It occurs to me that there is so much steel in the back corner with all the different layers of panels coming together that the outer panel isn't really structural. That has made me think of gluing a cosmetic repair patch in place. Has anyone any thoughts on this?

I'd trust your instinct.  Go for it...

(if outside the MOT "must be seam welded" zone)

Saw Landrover Velars being built over the Easter holidays and its all that holds them together.  The surprise was that they've VERY similar to a Jaguar F-Pace, which is built in Solihull on the same line. 

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/welding-for-mot-whats-required.904/

There's a link to the regs in there, and discussion of seams and spots etc and what items you need to be 30cm away from.  Eg seat belt mounts.

Thanks David, that makes things much clearer. Patches must be seam welded to restore continuous metal in the panel and spot welds (or substitute plug welds) used at original panel joints to preserve the same panel deformation characteristics and ensure proper performance of crumple zones.

I did do some work today by doing most of the work on a new bumper mounting bracket.

That's impressive!

I like the way the surface rolls into the big square hole.

My late best man gave me a joddler when he gave up working on cars. The head just fits through the square hole so I was able to run round with that to make the flange. I suspect it's important to the rigidity of the panel.

I spotted the joddler in the photo under the jigsaw. 

https://www.frost.co.uk/joggler-joddler-flanger-with-hole-punch.html

Never ocured to me, but the ones with the hole punch, is that a size for plug welds or a self tapper?

The one bit I'm jealous of / interested in / look occasionally at is the "railway track anvil".  Its obviously handy enough to bring out with everything else...  They vary in price, and obviously to have one delivered is a fortune.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Anvil-Train-Track-Rail-Black-Smith-200mm-long-cash-on-collection/132640517307?hash=item1ee1fdacbb:g:0ycAAOSw3zNalDyI

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Iron-Railroad-Railway-Line-Bullhead-Rail-Track-Hobby-Anvil-Railwayana/302746292571?hash=item467d15d15b:g:eUoAAOSwWFFbA~G6

The hole punch in the joddler is for plug welds which, after the link about welds for MOTs, I shall be using later in the project.

My rail track anvil was acquired from a blacksmith at a re-enactors fair but they don't turn up very often. It was surprisingly expensive for a couple of inches of scrap steel but is infinitely more convenient than carting my 1/4 size anvil to events.

The replacement bumper bracket mount has had reinforcing plates fitted to bridge the gap where it folds outwards and captive nuts welded in for the bumper bracket to bolt into. The first cut has been made on the off side to reveal the extent of the internal rot which actually isn't too bad on the inner arch. I have included a pre dismantling picture of this area to show how hidden the problem was. Also there is a close-up of the Joddler for David.

The NSR bumper bracket is in place and the NSR inside corner is complete and primed. It isn't the prettiest job in the world but hopefully things will improve with practice. Cutting away the OSR corner has started cautiously. There are five layers of steel in this cunningly designed rust trap. I have remover the remains of the top part of the bumper bracket and plan to try patching the least damaged parts in situ this time to maintain better reference points for reconstruction.

Looks good from here.

Certainly looks BETTER :)

Hi Frank
where did you source the back exhaust box?
Clarkey

I expect the back box came from Halfords as I have a trade card that makes parts quite reasonably priced.

Today I plated the OSR outer panel and got a coat of paint on it. All this will be covered by the rear light so the finish doesn't matter too much.

Is this the bit you didn't want to weld?   

What was the decision on that?  One approach might be to weld it, but forgive yourself whatever thickness of filler it took to make look reasonable.  Then again you might distort the whole panel and have problems elsewhere...  Alas I don't have the experience to know.

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/thin-metal.htm

Have also seen it done as tacks, then fill in between the tacks, then in between again and again until its continuous.

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/removing-floor.htm

"Distortion is always a risk when welding a long seam on a flat sheet. Distortion is caused by heat build up in the panel, so the way to reduce distortion is to weld small areas at a time and allow the area time to cool before doing any more welding nearby.

A 1 inch seam was made 1/3 of the way along the floor, then a second further along the floor. Further seams were welded between those seams and so on until the the joint was fully welded. A complete seam probably took around half a day, allowing plenty of time along the way for everything to keep cool."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNcOGbDbDK4

Many modern cars are constructed using industrial adhesives, if you have had to joggle the panel why not stick it together and finish with filler when panel is prepared for painting
Can't see why you can't, but not on load bearing structures?
Brian
8227  8).

Following David Lavers' post on 24th May It seemed the MOT requirement is for seam welds where a panel has been cut into and spot welds where panels were originally spot welded. As a result I seam welded in the new metal and plug welded where it overlaps the rear panel.

I think the MOT requirements are within "proscribed areas" - near suspension and seat belt mounts, I'd assume also engine mounts. 

For bodywork - while not best practice - am sure most LMC members will have come across the "self tappers and wodge it full of filler" technique.

Unfortunately on a Y10 the back corner of the boot is within 12" of the rear seat belt mounts. Better safe than sorry.

Today I got the main plate tacked in for the OSR corner but tomorrow I disappear to Wales to play 17th century for five weeks so there will be no more progress for a while.

Any lessons for the rest of us?

(The Lancia, not the trip back to the C17th)

Two things come to mind.

 Welding seems to need lots of practice, and I need plenty more still. However once you can fill in the holes you've blown without making even bigger holes then you are on your way doing something useful.

The other thing to remember is that your car started out as flat sheets of metal and can be remade from the same. You can't replicate a complex pressing in one go but you can resolve it into a series of simpler parts that you can then be joined together.

Do I hear the sound of grandmothers sucking eggs?

I like the "once you can fill in the holes you've blown without making even bigger holes"...

My trip back to the 17th century has been completed with a thatched roof removed from a barn and a new stone roof built. Now I have taken up my welding torch and progress is being made once again on the Y 10. The off side rear corner is complete internally and the inner wing is completed (don't worry about the funky shape of the big patch as it was just an off cut and most of it was cut away once welded. The outer panel will be easiest done in two stages because of all the curves and the first bit is in place. If I don't get distracted by the Grand Prix tomorrow I may even complete the welding. An appearance at this year's LMC rally may be on the cards.

Looking good!

The welding is completed (well, I've given up trying to make it any better) and it's into the filler and primer stage. Things are looking hopeful for the AGM but I will loose several days going to Caerphilly for a wedding. Whilst the filler was setting I got onto the back bumper with Maguires Ultimate Black. I forgot to take a "before" picture so a shot of the front bumper will have to do for comparison.

Having done a first fill and prime yesterday I am working through the process of successive filling, priming, revealer mist coat of matt black, sanding and filling again. Hopefully this is the last fill before I go to colour coast. In between times I have used tigerseal to seam seal the joints inside the boot.

Looking good. 

Any lessons for next time?

Don't ignore damp in the back of a Y10! I heard all sorts of theories including condensation when the floor in the back cools over the hot exhaust. A lesson I will apply is to form some sort of liner in the rear arches behind the back wheels.

I started getting colour on today. It always looks great just after you spray but tends not to last once you start rubbing down and cutting back. That's when the blemishes show up for me. If the rain holds off I will continue to add coats.

I have an MOT booked for Thursday so reassembly and recommissioning is going on. My brake fluid was up to 1.5% moisture content so my trusty easybleed has been out to replace the brake fluid. I have also found a split steering ball joint gaiter so that will need changing too and the fan isn't cutting in so a new sender seems to be on the menu. I hope too much more doesn't show up.

Having now done some mechanical work can you even find the paint faults that bothered you just after you'd done it? 

In a word, yes. However it's a workaday car with lots of things wrong with it so it isn't an issue. Today I have painted the rear panel black (I thought I had some satin but only had gloss which will do for now) and started fitting up the rear end. One of the headlights was misted up but I find a few minutes sucking air through it with a hoover dries it out nicely. Another headlamp issue on Y10s is that the trim between the bottom of the headlight and the bumper doesn't stay in place and disappears under the light. To keep it in place I add a small self tapping screw through its' inner end.

Interesting to see (I assume) "wires" printed on the inside of the rear lights.

If I remember correctly from my Y10's they are metal tracks🤔
Brian
8227
 8)

Brian is correct. They aren't printed circuits like the instrument panel electrics but actual strips of tin laid on the surface.

Sadly my Y10 will not be making it to the AGM. It's a case of two steps forwards and one step back. I frantically sorted the issues I was aware of for the MOT and got everything re-assembled and running but when I got in it to go to the garage I discovered both front seatbelts are jammed solid and no amount of fiddling would free them. I got some old seatbelts in my last parts cache but they are all seized too. I even looked at whether belts out of an old Toyota Yaris could be pressed into service but without success. So now the interior is part stripped, the offending articles removed and a trip to the seatbelt rebuilder planned. It's particularly annoying as I had them rebuilt already some years ago.

Amazon search for "securon static diagonal" - some of them on PRIME

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dautomotive&field-keywords=securon+static+diagonal&rh=n%3A248877031%2Ck%3Asecuron+static+diagonal

....or Car Builder Solutions if in less of a rush...

https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/seat-belts-and-harnesses-other-seat-belts

Both have a wide variety of retractable belts.

Thanks David. I will compare prices with my rebuilder. The advantage of rebuilding is that he stiches the original Fiat Lancia labels into the new webbing to maintain originality. Having said that the car doesn't really merit excessive expenditure.

As work has moved on from boot corner rust per-se I have decided to start a new thread for all the other bits and pieces I get up to. I am calling it "Y10 Wanderings" which are likely to be many and varied.