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Author Topic: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress  (Read 65039 times)
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nthomas1
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Posts: 704



« Reply #345 on: 02 May, 2020, 10:53:04 AM »

Tim - how would you go about getting it checked over? Just to clarify, I have no reason to believe thereís a problem with it.  My question was related to Andreaís comment about the voltage regulator.
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Norm Thomas
Ormskirk, Lancashire

Own:
1973 Fulvia S2 Coupe
Various modern cars
Previous Lancias: S2 Coupe and S3 Coupe in late 1970s
lancialulu
Press Officer
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Posts: 4038



« Reply #346 on: 02 May, 2020, 12:17:03 PM »

Tim - how would you go about getting it checked over?
Old school auto electrician. And they can check the regulator at the same time. However you can do simple things. Spin the alternator to check bearings. Undo the brushes (2 nylon blocks) to check they have not worn out. Then you can peer in and see the commutator - should be shiny copper.... But I guess in your case just wait till you can fire up the engine then measure the voltage across the battery with the engine running - beyond idle it should be c14v...
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
nthomas1
Rebel Poster
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Posts: 704



« Reply #347 on: 02 May, 2020, 12:35:11 PM »


Thanks Tim.  I think I'll do the latter.
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Norm Thomas
Ormskirk, Lancashire

Own:
1973 Fulvia S2 Coupe
Various modern cars
Previous Lancias: S2 Coupe and S3 Coupe in late 1970s
nthomas1
Rebel Poster
*
Posts: 704



« Reply #348 on: 02 May, 2020, 12:40:28 PM »

The voltage regulator and first of the solenoid switches are cleaned up and ready to reinstall.  The backing plate attaches via bolts through the driver side wheel arch.

One question about the voltage regulator is how should it be earthed?  The TAV (item 12) shows a separate earth, but I know that sometimes means that an item is earthed via its housing, but in this case the housing is plastic.  Should I take an earth from the black terminal?


* Screen Shot 2020-05-02 at 13.33.18.png (780.87 KB, 907x448 - viewed 67 times.)
« Last Edit: 02 May, 2020, 01:39:30 PM by nthomas1 » Logged

Norm Thomas
Ormskirk, Lancashire

Own:
1973 Fulvia S2 Coupe
Various modern cars
Previous Lancias: S2 Coupe and S3 Coupe in late 1970s
lancialulu
Press Officer
Permanent resident
*****
Posts: 4038



« Reply #349 on: 02 May, 2020, 02:27:28 PM »

Norman do you have any sort of digital or analoque electric meter the resistance on it (ohms)? If not buy one!

Anyway with meter switched to ohms you will probably most likely find your central black is already connected to its chassis (backplate). If so you have nothing else to do but soundly mount that plate to you car chassis (metal to metal).
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
nthomas1
Rebel Poster
*
Posts: 704



« Reply #350 on: 02 May, 2020, 03:48:15 PM »


So Tim, I think youíre saying that I donít need to be concerned that the wiring diagram shows a separate earth. At the moment the central black terminal is not connected to the backplate, but Iíll modify the mounting so that it is.

Yes, I do have a good quality multimeter but Iím still learning how to use it. The instructions take some deciphering - especially for a novice like me!
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Norm Thomas
Ormskirk, Lancashire

Own:
1973 Fulvia S2 Coupe
Various modern cars
Previous Lancias: S2 Coupe and S3 Coupe in late 1970s
nistri
Megaposter
*
Posts: 336


« Reply #351 on: 02 May, 2020, 04:01:07 PM »

I am not sure if the alternator is a Ducellier one (often found in most coupes) or a Bosch one (more often found in berlinas and early S2 coupes). Each type had its original regulator of mechanical type (not interchangeable), i.e. with moving contacts liable to wear. This is why it was a common practice to fit an electronic regulator: for the Bosch alternator the correct part was fitted directly to the back of the alternator. Usually for the Ducellier alternator, the unit (from various manufacturers) was fitted where the original regulator was located and it does need an earth, often where the lights are earthed. The alternator also needs a very good earth, ideally better than the rather slim wire provided by the factory.

Assuming that the alternator has a good belt that is not slipping on a worn pulley groove, one should use a voltmeter to measure voltage across the battery terminals (engine switched off) and then with engine idling, and finally at about 3500 revs. The voltage should be under 13 V, 13.3-4 V when idling, and near 14 at high revs. It should be borne in mind that on a 12 V system each battery cell has 2.1 V and thus with 6 of them in any battery, the baseline voltage is 12.6. If the battery reading at rest is lower, then the system is not OK (or the battery low on charge). A dysfunctional regulator would lead to a dead battery or boil it! The units fixed  near the regulators are relays for the lights. Andrea
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Andrea Nistri

Ardea S2
Appia S2
Fulvia GTE
Fulvia Sport 1.3 S
Fulvia Montecarlo
Fulvia Coupe 1.3 S
lancialulu
Press Officer
Permanent resident
*****
Posts: 4038



« Reply #352 on: 02 May, 2020, 04:51:06 PM »

I am not sure if the alternator is a Ducellier one (often found in most coupes) or a Bosch one (more often found in berlinas and early S2 coupes). Each type had its original regulator of mechanical type (not interchangeable), i.e. with moving contacts liable to wear. This is why it was a common practice to fit an electronic regulator: for the Bosch alternator the correct part was fitted directly to the back of the alternator. Usually for the Ducellier alternator, the unit (from various manufacturers) was fitted where the original regulator was located and it does need an earth, often where the lights are earthed. The alternator also needs a very good earth, ideally better than the rather slim wire provided by the factory.

Assuming that the alternator has a good belt that is not slipping on a worn pulley groove, one should use a voltmeter to measure voltage across the battery terminals (engine switched off) and then with engine idling, and finally at about 3500 revs. The voltage should be under 13 V, 13.3-4 V when idling, and near 14 at high revs. It should be borne in mind that on a 12 V system each battery cell has 2.1 V and thus with 6 of them in any battery, the baseline voltage is 12.6. If the battery reading at rest is lower, then the system is not OK (or the battery low on charge). A dysfunctional regulator would lead to a dead battery or boil it! The units fixed  near the regulators are relays for the lights. Andrea
Andrea I think Norman's alternator is a Ducellier. I have this on my 1600HF and a non Ducellier electronic regulator . I have the Bosch on my Sport 1600. This has the original regulator but I am looking to replace with an all in one brush and regulator unit There seem to be 1000 different models. Do you have a part number for the Bosch (0.120.300.518) for this brush/regulator?

One curious thing about the Ducellier is the shaft is 12mm whereas the Bosch is the more normal 14mm. I had a Ducellier rebuilt about 14 years ago and the Auto-electrician (since retired) said it was just as well the rotor was in good condition because he could not find a replacement.....
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
nthomas1
Rebel Poster
*
Posts: 704



« Reply #353 on: 02 May, 2020, 05:00:59 PM »


Thank you for that information Andrea.  Iíll certainly do the checks that you suggest once the engine is running again.

Yes, the alternator is a Ducellier.  There is no earth wire from it other than the wire to the voltage regulator, so presumably that is how it is earthed? Reference your comment about the earth wire being slim, are you suggesting I should add a heftier earth cable from the same terminal on the alternator to earth on the chassis somewhere?

Regarding the three switches/relays adjacent to the voltage regulator on my original photograph, Iíve figured out what they all are by tracking the wires and by comparing them to the wiring diagram.  The one on the left with the blade fuse controls the inner headlamps; the small black one third from left is the horns solenoid switch; and the silver one on the right is the coolant solenoid switch.
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Norm Thomas
Ormskirk, Lancashire

Own:
1973 Fulvia S2 Coupe
Various modern cars
Previous Lancias: S2 Coupe and S3 Coupe in late 1970s
nistri
Megaposter
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Posts: 336


« Reply #354 on: 02 May, 2020, 06:25:14 PM »

Tim, the original electronic regulator made by Bosch is actually fitted to two of my Fulvias. I fear you will have to be patient as I go through my spares to find out the part number (whcih is obsolete by now but if you are lucky you might source it in Ebay).

Thomas, again I am quoting from memory but I think to remember that the Ducellier alternator has an earth wire from the spade terminal at the top of the alternator. This is not easily visible and often disturbed by inexperienced mechanics. Choose a good earth point to connect it (recall that the alternator is fixed to rubber bushes, thus insulated). Just to repeat what I have mentioned before: the earth terminal from the (-) pole of battery to the gearbox must be clean and gently filed back to bright metal as this is the earth for the whole car.

I suggest to inspect carefully that fuse holder feeding the rad fan motor (which should also be correctly earthed). The fuse might look OK but the internal contact are often dodgy to account for blown head gaskets, overheating etc. If your rewired system does not have a fuse, my advice is to fit one in line as the fan motor gives strong electrical transients when it comes on (interesting to watch the drop in engine revs when it happens).

Finally, on S2 cars it is not unusual to see the warning light for the charging system glowing slightly especially at night. This is not something to worry about because the wire to the dashboard is really too thin (courtesy of the Fiat economy strategy). Thus, one can ignore it, or fit a thicker wire, or as shown by the Lancia technical note, to fit a higher amp bulb to the warning light. Andrea
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Andrea Nistri

Ardea S2
Appia S2
Fulvia GTE
Fulvia Sport 1.3 S
Fulvia Montecarlo
Fulvia Coupe 1.3 S
nthomas1
Rebel Poster
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Posts: 704



« Reply #355 on: 02 May, 2020, 06:57:12 PM »


Thanks Andrea - lots of useful information there.

I checked the alternator again. The wire from the hard to reach spade terminal at the top, which you mentioned, is in fact the green wire to the voltage regulator.  The black wire to the voltage regulator is the only thing I can see as a possible earth.  If that is the case, do you suggest I take an additional heftier earth from there to somewhere on the chassis?
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Norm Thomas
Ormskirk, Lancashire

Own:
1973 Fulvia S2 Coupe
Various modern cars
Previous Lancias: S2 Coupe and S3 Coupe in late 1970s
nistri
Megaposter
*
Posts: 336


« Reply #356 on: 02 May, 2020, 07:01:51 PM »

Basically the alternator in your case is earthed through the regulator, not ideal but OK if the regulator earth is really very good. You should check the resistance value (in ohms) between the regulator earth and the gearbox earth. This should be as low as possible, Andrea
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Andrea Nistri

Ardea S2
Appia S2
Fulvia GTE
Fulvia Sport 1.3 S
Fulvia Montecarlo
Fulvia Coupe 1.3 S
nthomas1
Rebel Poster
*
Posts: 704



« Reply #357 on: 03 May, 2020, 01:33:36 PM »

The mysterious (to me at least) blade-fuse relay seems to have been installed to ensure adequate voltage to the inner headlamps.  The original green (R) and green/black (L) wires to these lamps have been disconnected.  The relay takes power via a 2.5mm yellow cable from the starter motor and when switched routes it to 2.5mm red wires running to both inner headlamps.  Thereís a 20 amp blade fuse in the relay.

The relay is activated by a yellow wire from a pull-push switch with amber ring to the right of the air outlet grille at the top of the console.  The switch is linked via a 2mm red wire to Fuse #7, so I think that means itís permanently live.

I will get a connecting block for the relay, or replace it if I canít find a block to fit.

Todayís question is not electrical related:  how are the connectors on the servo vacuum hose removed (second picture) and is there any reason why the hose would be in two sections with a short connector (other than to maybe repair a break/leak)?


* Relay.JPG (870.43 KB, 1984x2051 - viewed 69 times.)

* Servo hose.png (872.4 KB, 907x530 - viewed 62 times.)
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Norm Thomas
Ormskirk, Lancashire

Own:
1973 Fulvia S2 Coupe
Various modern cars
Previous Lancias: S2 Coupe and S3 Coupe in late 1970s
lancialulu
Press Officer
Permanent resident
*****
Posts: 4038



« Reply #358 on: 03 May, 2020, 02:06:12 PM »

Norman

Looks like that relay could have powered some additional spot lights?? That panel switch was for UK market when later cars had H4 outer headlamps with both main and dipped. The inner lights as driving lights where separately switched. It is not uncommon to modify the wiring to trigger the the inner lights to come on when you have main beam. and the additional relay was to not overload the Lancia main beam relay

The servo hose is a vacuum hose so stronger than water pipe. The thing in the middle is probably a non return valve. - you need to check if it is still working....
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
nthomas1
Rebel Poster
*
Posts: 704



« Reply #359 on: 03 May, 2020, 02:18:56 PM »

Thanks Tim.  The relay was definitely connected to the inner headlamps, and the original wiring to them was disconnected.

I'll check the hose if I can figure out how, but first I have to remove it.  Do you know how those hose connectors undo?
« Last Edit: 03 May, 2020, 02:20:36 PM by nthomas1 » Logged

Norm Thomas
Ormskirk, Lancashire

Own:
1973 Fulvia S2 Coupe
Various modern cars
Previous Lancias: S2 Coupe and S3 Coupe in late 1970s
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