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Author Topic: B21 front wheel bearings  (Read 2134 times)
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Dikappa
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« on: 12 December, 2016, 06:59:15 PM »

Working on my B21 brakes, I discovered the inner bearing retainer of the left front wheel wasn't very well secured. Now the inner seal (situated behind the inner bearing) is damaged.
Is there any advice on a suitable replacement for this?  Brake shoes had grease splattered on them which can't be good...

Also advise on suitable bearing replacements most welcome...

Thank you!

PS it's the ex Christo B21, which is well known on the forum. It found it's way back to Belgium a few weeks ago.  Very pleased with it.  It has some minor issues to be resolved, but all in all a very nice car.
« Last Edit: 12 December, 2016, 11:24:01 PM by Dikappa » Logged
Parisien
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« Reply #1 on: 12 December, 2016, 07:19:35 PM »

Koen, info on way courtesy of research done by Andy aka the cern!

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Frank Gallagher
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« Reply #2 on: 12 December, 2016, 07:56:38 PM »

You've probably got this info already but these are the specs for the 5th ser B20 (same as B10/B12 and Appia furgoncino) plus I suspect the B21



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chriswgawne
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« Reply #3 on: 12 December, 2016, 09:11:45 PM »

The so-called oil seal can be replaced by a suitably sized O ring if an original isn't available but please please make sure that the inner bearing retaining ring is fully tightened  AND has the wire locking ring fitted and seated correctly.
I know of two instances where this presumably hasn't been done correctly by Aurelia owners resulting in the  bearing retaining ring unscrewing which then allowed the wheel, brake drum and hub to part company with the stub axle.
In one instance the car was being driven slowly round a roundabout and in the second it was flat out on a fast rh bend at a racetrack. Thank goodness neither incident resulted in any real damage but it took a while to find the wheel, drum and hub at the track as it was in the next but one field!!

Chris 
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Chris Gawne
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Dikappa
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« Reply #4 on: 12 December, 2016, 11:23:44 PM »

I consider myself very lucky I stumbled upon this in time, on removing the hub to attach the 'cutter' for the brake shoes, so no harm done, but indeed a potentialy very dangerous situation...
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chriswgawne
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« Reply #5 on: 13 December, 2016, 06:57:19 AM »

I omitted to say that sealed bearings are available these days and are worth considering. Also the 2 individuals who had the incidents I related above are well known Aurelia owners who have worked on their cars for many years. I think both the problems occurred because the retaining ring simply wasn't tightened enough and then the wire locking ring had too much to do.. It's a very fine thread which is tricky to clean up if marked.
Chris
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Chris Gawne
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Parisien
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« Reply #6 on: 13 December, 2016, 10:32:47 AM »

I consider myself very lucky I stumbled upon this in time, on removing the hub to attach the 'cutter' for the brake shoes, so no harm done, but indeed a potentialy very dangerous situation...


Indeed, its a shame that Lancia with such a reputation for engineering beyond reproach allowed this to get past muster and end up possibly taking someones life over the years of production and afterwards?

Any one know if in the 50/60s any of this was a concern or its only happened when the cars were elderly and had their bearings replaced?


P
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Frank Gallagher
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« Reply #7 on: 13 December, 2016, 01:35:10 PM »

Some misunderstanding here!
I don't think there is a Lancia design fault for one minute.
One just has to ensure the retaining ring on the rear of the hub is tight (as in fully screwed in)  and the wire locking clip is properly seated thereby doing its job properly.
Chris .
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Chris Gawne
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Dikappa
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« Reply #8 on: 13 December, 2016, 06:38:35 PM »

I don't blame anyone, and as Chris pointed out this shoul not be considered a disign flaw.  It's just one of those things that happen from time to time I guess.

Is there a special tool available for purchase somewhere, or will I have to build something?
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Parisien
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« Reply #9 on: 13 December, 2016, 06:57:04 PM »

Perhaps as Chris says it may well not be a design flaw but if the techniques or skills/knowledge required to carry out this repair are not clearly known or flagged up as critical from a safety perspective by highly knowledgeable and able owners then, it is right to highlight and flag up to fellow members.

In this instance it perhaps wasn't that they didn't know about it but it was either too difficult to do or due to tolerances etc, owners thought that they had done the repair correctly and to a safe standard when they patently failed to do so.

Are there any other critical or very awkward repairs that owners need to be aware of or perhaps be need listed on a sticky thread?


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Frank Gallagher
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« Reply #10 on: 14 December, 2016, 12:42:30 AM »

Perhaps as Chris says it may well not be a design flaw but if the techniques or skills/knowledge required to carry out this repair are not clearly known or flagged up as critical from a safety perspective by highly knowledgeable and able owners then, it is right to highlight and flag up to fellow members.

In this instance it perhaps wasn't that they didn't know about it but it was either too difficult to do or due to tolerances etc, owners thought that they had done the repair correctly and to a safe standard when they patently failed to do so.

Are there any other critical or very awkward repairs that owners need to be aware of or perhaps be need listed on a sticky thread?


P

Frank,
In their day I doubt many B20's etc were serviced by their owners, nor were they expected to be, but by trained staff at the Dealerships,  if you could afford the cost of a new Lancia in those days, you could have afforded to have it serviced properly.
It's only in later life all of our Lancias, including Fulvia, that they have fallen into the hands of enthusiasts, many who do most of their own work, possibly not helped by there no longer being many garages that have the knowledge, or expertise to work on them.
So Lancia can hardly be blamed for not having their crystal Ball set up for the 21st Century, in the middle of the 20th Century.
If anyone is unsure of how to proceed with a repair they should voice their concerns and ask for help, as is frequently the case here, if they decide to repair their own Lancia, no ifs, no buts, the onus is on them to find out.
Brian
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lancialulu
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« Reply #11 on: 14 December, 2016, 08:55:02 AM »

Isnt this retaining nut design essentially found in all Lancias upto and including the Gamma? Assembled incorrectly the bearing works loose damaging the inner hub before worse things? Thats why they are done up so tight (200ftlb) and have this wire locking "circlip".
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Dikappa
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« Reply #12 on: 14 December, 2016, 11:29:23 AM »

Today had some fun making a tool for the nut, as I feel it is not done to hammer it in place, nor will it give the desired torque...

I also came across an oil seal with dimensions 38 x 54 x5 mm, which would fit inside the space in the nut, and would provide a better seal than the original 'o-ring like' seal I would think, opinions please!!!!

Also attached a few pictures of the seating of the bearing as found (...halfway out!!!!), and the 'Continental 60' brake shoe aligning tool (results to be confirmed, first time I use it)


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* P1070773 (Large).JPG (131.17 KB, 1440x1080 - viewed 66 times.)
« Last Edit: 14 December, 2016, 11:31:05 AM by Dikappa » Logged
Parisien
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« Reply #13 on: 14 December, 2016, 11:32:55 AM »

Frank,
In their day I doubt many B20's etc were serviced by their owners, nor were they expected to be, but by trained staff at the Dealerships,  if you could afford the cost of a new Lancia in those days, you could have afforded to have it serviced properly.
It's only in later life all of our Lancias, including Fulvia, that they have fallen into the hands of enthusiasts, many who do most of their own work, possibly not helped by there no longer being many garages that have the knowledge, or expertise to work on them.
So Lancia can hardly be blamed for not having their crystal Ball set up for the 21st Century, in the middle of the 20th Century.
If anyone is unsure of how to proceed with a repair they should voice their concerns and ask for help, as is frequently the case here, if they decide to repair their own Lancia, no ifs, no buts, the onus is on them to find out.
Brian
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[/quote]

Indeed Brian, but as these cars aged and wear and tear took its toll, then eventually they need some type of bearing work, so its unlikely that the 1st/2/3rd owners (who no doubt could have afforded the expense of maintaining these cars) would have availed of Lancia franchise expertise. I've no idea how long their bearings would have lasted (those on mine look pretty original!) but I hope they went beyond true "service" item status and were service plus ie replace when worn, so 50/60/80k miles? Or can anyone clarify?

My point being as Chris pointed out, two known episodes of a critical incidents happened on cars owned by well versed Aurelia owners, its of concern to a less knowledgable and able person such as myself, hence the sticky request about important safety type work for the Aurelia and indeed others.


P
« Last Edit: 14 December, 2016, 11:47:02 AM by Parisien » Logged

Frank Gallagher
Dikappa
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« Reply #14 on: 15 December, 2016, 05:50:41 PM »

Today reassembled the two hubs.  I found on both sides that the groove in which the retaining spring is located, was damaged by hammering the nut on and off, so repaired by filing it to the Original with and depth.

For the rest (and I don't like to say this about our favourit marque) I feel Lancia could have done better on the design by having made the hub with a step behind the outer (small) bearing, so that also this bearing, in case of emergency, would prevent the hub from parting with the axle. (hope you get what I mean there).  This would have made for a double safety without any further implications...but that's my opinion off course!

Anyway all is back together now hope to get it to the MOT tomorrow.
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