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Author Topic: DfT Consultation and Directive 2014/45/EU  (Read 1993 times)
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welleyes
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« on: 16 October, 2016, 01:42:21 PM »


Has there been discussion within the club concerning the DfT consultation document on testing of old cars? It is easy to find on the net and can be replied to on line, by email or by letter. The closing date, I believe, is November 2nd. This is part of the enacting into UK law of Directive 2014/45/EU.The title of the DfT document is Vehicles of Historical Interest - Consultation on exemptions from annual roadworthiness testing. It always helps to actually read these documents.
 
"To be considered Historic, a vehicle should be composed of only original components." I assume that this does not include such obvious consumables as brake and clutch linings, valves and springs, etcetera; all of which must be regularly renewed. There are other considerations with old vehicles (and new ones, actually);, if a connecting rod fails, it will almost certainly cause damage to major engine parts such as cylinder block, sump, pistons and so on, all of which would require replacement if the vehicle were not to be written off. Crankshafts, under normal usage, wear and can only be reground to a limited degree before the journals become too small for safe use. We might assume that such replacement with newly manufactured parts would not change the status of the vehicle, but we may be wrong. It is normal these days to fit modern signalling equipment (flashing indicators). Conversions from cable brakes to hydraulic are common.

So you see that while, on a first reading, it appears benign, on a second look it is rather less so.  My brother and I run four prewar cars. All four are in constant use. When annual testing was required by UK law, they passed with no problems. None has ever been involved in an accident during our ownership. Since it is many decades since two of them were last repainted, I have no doubt that they look a little drab. During our use, the Aprilia has had a replacement block and sump and new rods after an original rod broke. Both Morgan three wheeler engines have had new bottom ends using the old rods, one has newly manufactured heads and barrels. All gearbox and bevel box internals have been replaced because they wore out, new "swinging arms' in the Morgan rear suspension and so on. The Frazer Nash has had many parts replaced during its long life. I would expect something similar to be the case with many elderly cars which have led an active life.

Remember that this consultation exercise is part of enacting 2014/45/EU into UK law. In the Directive, 'vehicle of historical interest’ is defined as 'any vehicle which is considered to be historical by the Member State of registration or one of its appointed authorising bodies and which fulfils all the following conditions: manufactured or registered for the first time at least 30 years ago; its specific type, as defined in the relevant Union or national law, is no longer in production; it is historically preserved and maintained in its original state and has not undergone substantial changes in the technical characteristics of its main components.'

That all seems reasonable until you read also in the Directive that member states may exclude certain vehicles from testing. A list then follows of such specialist types as circus and funfair vehicles, forestry, agricultural and fisheries vehicles and so on. What tops the list? This!

"Vehicles operated or used in exceptional conditions and vehicles which are never, or hardly ever, used on public roads, such as vehicles of historical interest or competition vehicles." Your cherished Lancia, if over thirty years old, may be used for parades or driven to car shows where you may sit all day showing it off. Not what I want. But, of course, the FIVA exists to protect us; they will help. Will they?. Patrick Rollet, chairman of the FIVA has given this opinion.
“By ‘historic vehicle’, we mean a mechanically propelled road vehicle at least 30 years old, preserved and maintained in a historically correct condition and not used as a means of daily transport. These vehicles are part of our technical and cultural heritage and, in our opinion, should not be lumped together with old, badly maintained cars that are used as cheap, everyday transport, when considering the problem of urban air pollution.” Rich men's toys with an FIVA registration will probably be okay then.
We are very very concerned about what appears to be an intention in the EU to severely restrict the use of old cars. We are even more concerned that the FIVA appears to collude with that intention.
 
You may feel that none of this threat is real. That is what Morgan owners with children or grandchildren thought. They hoped to encourage their offspring to drive them. Directive 2012/36/EU  denied them that hope until the offspring had passed the motorcycle test for the most powerful class of two wheeler. That meant waiting until they were 24, taking three tests, owning three motorcycles and spending a lot of money. Rather a lot to ask of someone who just wants to drive a three wheeled car. The optimistic majority of the Morgan Three Wheeler Club insisted until the bitter end that Brussels did not mean what they had written. They were wrong. Preparing for the worst makes sense. Once a right is taken from us, it will not be returned.

Please read both the Consultation Document and the Directive. If you think there is a problem, respond to the consultation, write to your MP and MEP and write to Sir Greg Knight, chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group.
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lancialulu
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« Reply #1 on: 16 October, 2016, 02:35:59 PM »

The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs (of which LMC is a member) is working on this and is encouraging all inputs into them.

http://www.fbhvc.co.uk/about-us/news/_article/107/department-for-transport-issues-consultation-on-eu-roadworthiness-directive/

Also on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/fedbhvc/posts/

If you scroll down that facebook you add comments that I believe FBHVC will take on board in preparing their response to DfT.
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
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welleyes
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« Reply #2 on: 16 October, 2016, 05:50:58 PM »

Good stuff. Well done, FBHVC.

But please do not leave everything to them. Write to your M.P. If the Minister for Transport is told again and again that concerned drivers have contacted their representatives in Westminster, then he is more likely to take seriously whatever FBHVC and other bodies have told him. Specifically raise the questions of definitions which are addressed in the consultation document. And query the implied restriction on the use of our vehicles. Your action helps. Read the documents and then do something.
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neil-yaj396
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« Reply #3 on: 18 October, 2016, 07:56:53 AM »

I think the reference to 'originality' is to avoid the debacles that have happened in the past with replicas passed off as originals. Some of the committee will recall when DVLA virtually shut down registering imported classics after a number of replica Bugattis were accepted as real by them.

I agree that we can't be complacent about this, but I think the Government here are aware that the classic car movement in the UK is bigger and different to in the rest of the EU. FBHV have been on this right from the start.

As an aside I wonder if the free road tax will move up to 30 from 40 years? Probably not!
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chriswgawne
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« Reply #4 on: 18 October, 2016, 09:43:57 AM »

I wonder if the MOT Exemption for pre 1960 cars will be moved at some stage?
Chris
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Chris Gawne
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lancialulu
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« Reply #5 on: 18 October, 2016, 04:43:37 PM »

I am with Welleyes - this could be the thin end of the wedge......
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia HFR
1972 1600 HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1978 Transformer HF3000 Strato's replica
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi.e.
frankxhv773t
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« Reply #6 on: 18 October, 2016, 05:47:53 PM »

Without undermining the essential point of this post I think the qualification of being largely original may be aimed at hot rods and kit cars which, whilst based on historic vehicles, are altered out of all recognition. Great care is needed in drafting legislation or the law of unintended consequences will apply.
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welleyes
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« Reply #7 on: 19 October, 2016, 07:01:49 PM »

I would be very surprised if the wording were aimed at hot rods. They are not my cup of tea, but they appear to be well constructed and their organisation communicates with the DfT and DVLA in a thoughtful and literate style. They also have an advantage over most of us in that they actually read what comes out of Brussels. Probably the FBHVC does a super job at looking after our interests but it is not too easy to find out. May I commend the MAG as the ideal organisation when it comes to looking after members. They read, they act, they lobby and they constantly inform their members. Rather than telling me that Brussels does not mean what it says, would it not be better for our representatives in Brussels and Westminster to ask on our behalf just what the words below really mean?

Member states may exclude certain vehicles from testing. A list then follows of such specialist types as circus and funfair vehicles, forestry, agricultural and fisheries vehicles and so on. The first item in the list is...

"Vehicles operated or used in exceptional conditions and vehicles which are never, or hardly ever, used on public roads, such as vehicles of historical interest or competition vehicles."

Where is the ambiguity in that?
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lancialulu
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« Reply #8 on: 20 October, 2016, 07:58:03 AM »

Timely output from FBHVC on status of historic vehicle industry in UK.

http://us13.campaign-archive2.com/?u=1975e67684db07a82b0a2573b&id=9f67072ecf&e=6ba5059bc1

Pdf is to large to copy direct so you can down load it from the above link.

Not surprisingly Lancias as a model type do not figure as a separate group being well below 1% of estimated 500,000 classic and vintage cars in the UK. (I estimate Lancias make up 1500-2500 vehicles).

This is good PR to influence Whitehall - you cannot argue with figures!
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia HFR
1972 1600 HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1978 Transformer HF3000 Strato's replica
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi.e.
Caracad
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« Reply #9 on: 31 October, 2016, 11:37:04 AM »

I don't really mind if my Lancias are not classed as "Historic" and I have to get them MOTed every year.
I use them on the road so don't see why they should be exempt from a road worthiness test.   

If it came to it and I had to pay road tax (I do for the Gamma anyway), I would cope.

To me they are cars I use, that happen to be old.
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Jaydub
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« Reply #10 on: 31 October, 2016, 08:57:56 PM »

I don't really mind if my Lancias are not classed as "Historic" and I have to get them MOTed every year.
I use them on the road so don't see why they should be exempt from a road worthiness test.   

I agree, anything driven on the roads should be tested for all our sakes as a safety issue. If it won`t pass an MOT test it shouldn`t be on the road. I completed a 3 year body off chassis restoration of a 1952 Mercedes for a client, in which anything suspect was replaced at a cost of £100,000 plus, but I still had it MOT tested so that another pair of eyes considered it road worthy, even though it didn`t need one legally.
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Dilambdaman
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« Reply #11 on: 19 September, 2017, 10:09:22 AM »

Here's the Government's Response to the consultation.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/roadworthiness-testing-for-vehicles-of-historic-interest

Have to confess that I'm not quite clear as to whether fitting a replacement body to a vehicle since 1988 (as with Modestine) constitutes a substantial change requiring it to be MOT'd.

Robin.
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Robin Lacey 3222

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lancialulu
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« Reply #12 on: 19 September, 2017, 10:54:16 AM »

Doesn't seem clear to me if after one's vehicle is exempted that it will not be able to be MOT's at the VOSA MOT station if the owner wishes to carry on demonstrating the road-worthiness of his vehicle (for example when selling /buying)...Will it still be on the MOT database.

Also the requirement when registering an imported vehicle??

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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia HFR
1972 1600 HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1978 Transformer HF3000 Strato's replica
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi.e.
frankxhv773t
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« Reply #13 on: 19 September, 2017, 08:45:37 PM »

That's a very good point. As the MOT has gone on-line it may become impossible to MOT a vehicle that has been classed as exempt by the DVLA. This sort of things happens in other fields where a drive to administer something on-line makes it impossible to do something the architects of the system haven't anticipated.
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Jaydub
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« Reply #14 on: 20 September, 2017, 09:41:48 AM »

According to my local testing station, you can MOT test any vehicle if you want to , regardless of its exemption status. Likewise if you change the complete chassis or body eg; Land Rovers, it would still be exempt if the chassis number complied age wise.
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1600 HF. S2.
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