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Author Topic: Aprilia Cabrio - here we go again  (Read 71581 times)
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Mikenoangelo
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« Reply #480 on: 25 October, 2020, 09:19:50 AM »

I noticed when working on the Augusta front suspension that the original rubber bushes have a considerable self centering effect. If I try to turn the steering from lock to lock with the car jacked up it resists and goes back to centre. Did you notice any change in the self centering while driving when the Rose joints were fitted?

When dealing with the steering of vintage cars (setting up steering worm gears, king pin bushes etc) I have always ensured that I can, by pushing the wheels from lock to lock, make the steering wheel whizz round freely. Can't do that so easily on the Augusta.

Mike
« Last Edit: 25 October, 2020, 09:53:47 AM by Mikenoangelo » Logged
Kari
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« Reply #481 on: 25 October, 2020, 11:44:45 AM »

There are two schools of thought on this. I think it depends how the excentric bolts passing through the silent blocs are tightened. One method is to pull them really tight, so the twisting is in the rubber only. This will have a self centering effect as Mike describes.
On my Augusta I tighten the bolts snug only, the movement is between the bolt and the inner sleeve of the silent bloc. There is no self centering, when the car is on jacks, the wheels stay where they are put. This way one can spin the steering wheel from lock to lock by one finger. I still use the original bolts, I do grease them about every 2 years, there is play of about 1/10 mm.
The silent blocs I use, have a limit of twisting of 15 to 20, this is far less than required by the steering. I am aware that on the Aprilia the silent blocs are larger in diameter, perhaps this will allow more twisting.
Regards  Karl
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mikeC
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« Reply #482 on: 25 October, 2020, 07:32:13 PM »



I will see how I get on and may fit some period "driving" lights later on



I have a suitable Marchal 632 spotlight which I have tried, and failed, to sell on eBay; it's yours, if you want it, Simon.





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1953 Lancia Appia Series 1
1931 Austin Seven deluxe saloon
1914 Saxon Model A roadster


(previously owned Lancias: 1958 Appia Pininfarina coupe, 1987 Delta LX, 1986 Delta cabriolet, 1991 Dedra 1.8, 1993 Dedra 1.6)
davidwheeler
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« Reply #483 on: 26 October, 2020, 10:49:01 PM »

I noticed when working on the Augusta front suspension that the original rubber bushes have a considerable self centering effect. If I try to turn the steering from lock to lock with the car jacked up it resists and goes back to centre. Did you notice any change in the self centering while driving when the Rose joints were fitted?

When dealing with the steering of vintage cars (setting up steering worm gears, king pin bushes etc) I have always ensured that I can, by pushing the wheels from lock to lock, make the steering wheel whizz round freely. Can't do that so easily on the Augusta.

Mike
The self centering when driving is dependent upon the geometry of the steering not the very feeble effect of twisting the rubber in the bushes.    The steering feels the same except that it is perhaps a little lighter and it is much more precise.   There is almost no play at the steering wheel whereas before there was play of a couple of inches or so.  The slackness in the rubber joints, inevitable no matter how new they are, is eliminated by the rose joints but without inducing any kick back.    The rubber joints seem to be a retrograde step and I do not understand why Lancia adopted them.  Lambdas have ball joints after all.     It is not as if Lancia was interested in cost cutting!   Perhaps you should try my mod. on the Augusta, I had not realised they also had rubber in the steering.
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David Wheeler.  Lambdas, Aprilia, Fulvia Sport.(formerly Appia and Thema as well).
simonandjuliet
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« Reply #484 on: 27 October, 2020, 09:08:30 PM »

A bit of progress today - the front brakes are nearly back together. Backplates , wheel cylindres and flexis back on. I still have to fit new linings to the shoes but I cleaned the bearings and drums ready for refitting

The bearings have been soaked in petrol to remove the dried up grease, then blown through with compressed air before a second soak in clean petrol - then air again. A thorough re-grease and ready to go. I have new bearings just in case these make a noise. Since everything has been apart it would be a very simple job to replace them if required, but a shame to put new bearings in if they are not needed

Using a spare set of drums and bearings, I put her on all four feet to see how the suspension sits - so far , so good


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S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 63,Fulvia Berlina GT, 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan
Dikappa
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« Reply #485 on: 28 October, 2020, 06:53:34 AM »

Simon, it is going to be too good to be used, it looks all sooo nice!
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chriswgawne
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« Reply #486 on: 28 October, 2020, 07:24:35 AM »

Just 6 bolts holding the backplates on the hubs Simon? I think I would have expected more?
Its looking great.
Chris
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Chris Gawne
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simonandjuliet
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« Reply #487 on: 28 October, 2020, 08:13:33 AM »

Thanks Gents,

Chris, the mountings for the shoes are on the hub carrier itself, so the backplate doesn't do that much work, just keeps everything lined up. The most significant distortion is around the adjusters especially if they are seized

The fixings holding the backplate on are lovely, domed screws as well, not bolts !

ps Thanks to Mike for the driving light which is on its way to France
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S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 63,Fulvia Berlina GT, 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan
Mikenoangelo
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« Reply #488 on: 28 October, 2020, 08:16:24 PM »


The self centering when driving is dependent upon the geometry of the steering not the very feeble effect of twisting the rubber in the bushes.    The steering feels the same except that it is perhaps a little lighter and it is much more precise.   There is almost no play at the steering wheel whereas before there was play of a couple of inches or so.  The slackness in the rubber joints, inevitable no matter how new they are, is eliminated by the rose joints but without inducing any kick back.    The rubber joints seem to be a retrograde step and I do not understand why Lancia adopted them.  Lambdas have ball joints after all.     It is not as if Lancia was interested in cost cutting!   Perhaps you should try my mod. on the Augusta, I had not realised they also had rubber in the steering.

[/quote]

The play at the steering wheel rim is about 8 to10mm not inches and so very slight. There is no detectable slackness in the rubber bushes so I think it is as it should be. I agree the geometry is the main determinant of self centering but was just curious as to whether the rubber twisting effect was significant. From your comment it seems very slight.
Thanks

Mike
« Last Edit: 30 October, 2020, 08:12:56 PM by Mikenoangelo » Logged
chriswgawne
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« Reply #489 on: 29 October, 2020, 08:30:58 AM »

When I wrote about the backplate fixings Simon, I knew there had to be something I had missed! Sorry.
Chris
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Chris Gawne
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simonandjuliet
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« Reply #490 on: 30 October, 2020, 06:19:08 PM »

Chris, By the time they got to Aurelias they realised that it is easier to build the brakes/backplate on the bench and fit as one - far more sensible

Yesterday was "International Carignan Day" which is probably only really important to those of us who live in Southern France ... but it was a great excuse for a final pre-confinement fling with lunch in the vineyard. Not a Lancia but my R4 4x4 Renault in the vines hiding behind the table. Wild-boar stew and 2 vintages of Carignan

It is all available online on our Insta-thingy account ......

Back to cars - the first of the hubs back together, but without brake shoes. I decided to send them off to the UK to be relined instead of self-riveting linings. They have gone to a company in Leicester and I will feedback once they come back

The aluminium drum/fins are painted with a high temp paint whereas the centres are satin black and the cone thing top right is the spacer between inner and outer bearing

I have asked them to look at re-bushing the wear-prone pivots as well

 


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« Last Edit: 30 October, 2020, 06:22:23 PM by simonandjuliet » Logged

S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 63,Fulvia Berlina GT, 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan
simonandjuliet
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« Reply #491 on: 07 November, 2020, 09:47:55 PM »

Whilst waiting for the brake shoes to come back I am starting to get the bits together for the cooling system

Radiator was "checked" by previous owner, so hopefully that will be OK but the water pump was v poor so I had some NOS parts and made one up, however, I have already noted that the drain tap that came with the car is wrong (Augusta ??) so I need to find another one. The brass extension is too long and it fouls the side of the engine bay

I like the "Lancia" drain plugs !

The dynamo has been stripped and rebuilt and I have shown a couple of fans. S1 have 2 blades, S2 have 3

Both use a semi-captive nut to help remove the fan blades. Thanks to Mike R for highlighting this. I had never come across a circlip in place and have always either removed the radiator to put a puller on the fan, or used a "shock" method where you use the dynamo body as a slide-hammer to knock the fan blade off.

Less brutal than it sounds if the mounting "cone" was properly greased when it was put together

I fashioned a new circlip from an outside clip, just filing off the eyes and reducing the diametre a bit. Seems to work during a couple of trial fit/removal tests.

New mounting bolts, rubbers etc plus a new engine, lower hose connector - more on that one later ....


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S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 63,Fulvia Berlina GT, 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan
simonandjuliet
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« Reply #492 on: 08 November, 2020, 09:05:58 PM »

A quiet afternoon in the garage ....

I found and cleaned up the correct drain tap - the photo shows the difference between them - so hopefully that's OK now, and I can fit it later.

Plus a trial fit of the radiator (not finished) and dynamo/fan etc 

One problem was that the regulator (Bosch) that I had chosen had a terminal on the wrong side and it fouled the housing and the dynamo wouldn't go in far enough. I found another (Marelli) , so now sorted

What took most time was getting the bottom pipe right. It is a very short (2" ish) pipe, so very little leeway. If the radiator mounting rubbers are too high/low it is difficult, so the mounting rubbers are important.
There is a manifold that bolts to the engine, seating against 3/4" seals so I decided to get the length of the connecting pipe  right , leave it attached to the radiator and then screw the manifold to the engine. The fixing has a 14mm hex head with a slot so you can use a long screwdriver to locate it

Aprilia owners all have their own way of fitting the radiator:
waterpump fitted (easier if you don't have a drain tap),
dynamo fitted or not,
bottom hose connected to engine,
bottom hose connected to radiator etc etc

I have tried to think how it would have been done originally ..... so I am going down the waterpump in place, sitting under the radiator (not fitted) , bottom pipe attached to radiator with manifold and then leave the dynamo and fan to fit later.

Let's see how it goes !

ps I can see a small problem with close up photos - it shows the bits that you haven't cleaned or painted properly !!


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S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 63,Fulvia Berlina GT, 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan
simonandjuliet
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« Reply #493 on: 09 November, 2020, 08:59:52 PM »

Quick update on this

A couple of photos of the bottom hose (metric and imperial !), may help other Aprilia owners as a starting point for the bottom pipe length

Radiator has been prepped and painted. The "marin" is blowing , so it is warm and humid and I don't want the paint to bloom, so the radiator has come into the kitchen to dry .... so long as it's out by 2nd coffee, no divorce proceedings !



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S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 63,Fulvia Berlina GT, 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan
tzf60
Senior Member
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Posts: 117



« Reply #494 on: 10 November, 2020, 11:58:00 AM »

Hi Simon!
When you have an opportunity, please post a close-up photo of the lower hose manifold? I'm not familiar with it's design.
 
Thanks!
Tim F
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1939 Series 1 Aprilia undergoing very slow restoration.....
 
Previous Lancias: 1979 Beta Sedan 2000, 1982 Delta 1500, 1988 Delta 1.3, 1992 Dedra 1.8ie
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