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Author Topic: Aprilia spark plugs  (Read 3315 times)
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Jaydub
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« Reply #15 on: 24 March, 2016, 11:38:40 AM »

Hi all,
I have little experience of Lancia engines, but I have built a lot of engines including Ferrari`s and being also Italian may have similar numbering systems. On the Lancia V4 No,1 is front left ( sitting in driver`s seat) and is the foremost cylinder.  1/3 mark refers to either cylinder 1 or 3 being at TDC (top dead centre)  If the engine is turned in direction of rotation, the first marks usually to appear before TDC can be AA ( Aspirazione Aperto) Inlet Opens, usually around 30 degrees, for valve timing. Further rotation brings possibly a number, 6, 8 or 10. These are for ignition timing. Further rotation then brings up 0 or PM ( Punto Morto) Dead Centre.

Someone mentioned when the 1/3 mark was aligned that cylinders 2 and 3 were at TDC which is correct, but I think you will find that it is No.3 firing at that point. If it was rotated another 360 degrees and 1/3 aligned again, cyliders 1 and 4 will be at TDC with No.1 firing.
I hope that helps in some way.
John.
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ben
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« Reply #16 on: 24 March, 2016, 04:08:17 PM »

Whilst I hesitate to take issue with anyone who builds Ferrari engines I fear your comments may further add to the confusion!
Firstly not all the Lancia narrow vee 4 engines have the front cylinder on the left.
On the Lambda and the Augusta it is on the right!

Secondly for the Aprilia engine the handbook is quite clear that the A/A mark on the flywheel viewing aperture is for setting ignition timing and not valve timing. Only one tooth is marked (with a zero or phi symbol that is not easy to see!!---add a blob of tippex )

Thirdly when the reference tooth is set at the 1/3 position on the Aprilia engine both of the middle cylinders are at top dead centre.
 One is on compression (the firing stroke) and the other is on the change from exhaust to induction, depending on the position of the camshaft (which only rotates half a turn for every full turn of the crankshaft).
Rotating the engine 360 degrees brings the pistons back to the same positions but the one that was firing is now about to start on the induction stroke and the other one is on compression. It is entirely a matter of chance as to which position one arrives at when the timing marks are aligned unless the camshaft lid is off and the valve positions are being observed.

Finally to bring the front and rear pistons to TDC the crankshaft would need  to be rotated half a turn ie 180 degrees.



With reference to GG's observations for the Aurelia as I understand it the user doesn't have to do much figuring out as the numbers on the plug bosses correspond to the numbers on the distributor cap.

 

Referring back to Brians last post, with the timing set to the A/A mark it is one or other of the two middle cylinders that are both approaching TDC that should be firing and NOT the front cylinder.
 The timing can be set by rotating the distributor body anti-clockwise until the points start to open in the usual way,irrespective of which should be firing.
Having clamped the distributor in this position it is time to fit the first plug lead.At this point it does have to be established which of the two cylinders should be firing by observing the cam lobe/valve positions.(The tappet clearances should be "feelable" on the firing cylinder whereas they will both be tight on the other cylinder as the valves are on the "rock"). The first plug lead then goes from the distributor outlet that the rotor is pointing at to the firing cylinder previously identified.
The other three leads are fitted in order following a clockwise sequence on the distributor outlets and an anticlockwise sequence around the plug connectors on the head. 

What could be simpler!!!!!!

PS   It is possible to find the cylinder that should be firing without removing the cam cover (if you don't want to disturb the gasket for instance) by removing the other three spark plugs and feeling for the compression using the starting handle.
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Jaydub
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« Reply #17 on: 24 March, 2016, 04:59:05 PM »

Hi Ben,
You got me there! I did say I had little knowledge of Lancia engines and I acknowledge yours completely. You are also correct about rotating it only 180 degrees, and I came back on line to correct myself and saw your reply, thanks. I am still puzzled by the mark (A/A) if it doesn`t mean Asparazione Aperto, what does it mean? It must be Italian?
John
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frankxhv773t
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« Reply #18 on: 24 March, 2016, 09:48:48 PM »

At the risk of further complicating issues can I ask about Flaminia engines? Are they as Aurelias and have the numbers harmonised between distributor cap markings and the numbers by the individual plugs?
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Kari
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« Reply #19 on: 26 March, 2016, 09:42:25 AM »

In my humble knowledge of the italian language, the mark A/A on the fly wheel means "anticipo accensione" translated "Ignition advance". This mark is 8 before ANY top dead centre on the Augusta and if I'm right 13 before TDC on the Aprilia. This is the position, as described in the handbooks, where the breaker points should begin to open with the engine static. The marks 1/3 and 2/4 are TDC of the respective cylinders and serve for valve timing.

Karl
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ben
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« Reply #20 on: 26 March, 2016, 06:08:43 PM »

Thanks for the translation Kari.   That makes perfect sense.

Interestingly  (for Aprilia anoraks!)  the English translation of the handbook issued by Alperton gives the static advance figure as 13 degrees but in both copies of the book in Italian that I have---one pre-war and one dated 1952---the figure given is 10 degrees.

I don't know the answer regarding plug boss and distributor numbering for the Flaminia but it is a fact that Lancia had given up their confusing ways and changed to making the cylinder numbers in order from the front when the got to the Appia and the same is certainly true for the Fulvia.
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lancialulu
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« Reply #21 on: 26 March, 2016, 10:18:56 PM »

Thanks for the translation Kari.   That makes perfect sense.

Interestingly  (for Aprilia anoraks!)  the English translation of the handbook issued by Alperton gives the static advance figure as 13 degrees but in both copies of the book in Italian that I have---one pre-war and one dated 1952---the figure given is 10 degrees.

Uk petrol in the day was better than Italian fare I suspect....
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ben
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« Reply #22 on: 05 April, 2016, 11:46:05 AM »

I tripped over a spare flywheel in my shed yesterday so thought I would count the teeth and hence clarify the Aprilia static advance question that has undoubtedly been giving you all sleepless nights.

It has 122 teeth making them 360/122= 2.95degrees apart.

And as closely as I can judge the spacing between the 1/3 mark and the A/A mark is equivalent to three teeth and three quarters which when multiplied by 2.95 equates to 11 degrees.

So if one sets the distributor in accordance with the A/A mark as per the instruction manual the static advance will be 11 degrees irrespective of whether the book says 10 degrees or 13 degrees and irrespective of whether you use (current or period!) English or Italian petrol!!
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brian
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« Reply #23 on: 05 April, 2016, 06:15:00 PM »

In my naivety I thought engineering was an exact science. On reflection, I suppose it is, but the documentation isn't. Many thanks for the information.
Brian
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Brian Hands


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1934 Augusta standard saloon
1938 Aprilia S1 saloon
1953 Aurelia B10
1965 Flavia Sport
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« Reply #24 on: 14 April, 2016, 07:10:41 PM »

SUCCESS!

Today with the help of a proper mechanic I got the Aprilia ruuning well. The timing was about right (he congratulated me!!) and the problem was a) a poorly earthed capacitor ?relevant and b) wrong lead order.

So on my car - ?distributor cap original - the set up is as follows:

Going clockwise on the distributor numbers:

No 1 goes to cylinder Lancia No 1 which is second from front
No 3   "     "     "          "     No 2    "     " front
No 4   "     "     "          "     No 3    "     " third from front
No 2   "     "     "          "     No 4    "     " rearmost.

All I need now is for the builders to clear blocks and scaffolding from outside the garage and I can start getting a few miles done before the SPR.

I have now numbered all the leads with the Lancia cylinder numbers so hopefully sorted for ever.

Thanks to all.

Brian
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Brian Hands


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1934 Augusta standard saloon
1938 Aprilia S1 saloon
1953 Aurelia B10
1965 Flavia Sport
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« Reply #25 on: 14 April, 2016, 08:33:56 PM »

Brian, you have a pm and email


P
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Frank Gallagher
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