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Author Topic: Roof chopping on B20s - a thread from the Lancisti forum  (Read 7513 times)
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RobD
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« Reply #30 on: 01 December, 2015, 07:02:42 PM »

In reply to William's perfectly reasonable riposte I would add a further comment about the current obsession about originality within the world of old vehicles. Very few old vehicles retain their original upholstery and paintwork and I would concede those which do provide a useful reference point for restorers and it's good to see them being preserved in more or less original form by enthusiastic owners.
But there's a less healthy aspect to this side to the old car movement, one which is driven to a degree by the auction houses where highly original vehicles are prized by acquisitive owners who purchase these cars for prices often far beyond the realms of common sense and the cars end up as part of an investment portfolio. The escalation of price often pushes the cars beyond the grasp of genuine enthusiasts who want to actually use the cars.
As values rise the cars often get used cars less and less and its consumption consumption of consumables goes down. This has a detrimental affect on the marque specialists whose bread and butter sales of service items such as bearings and seals starts to decrease and interest in supporting the marque starts to wane ultimately making parts hard to get hold of and more expensive. It's a downward spiral.
So , I'd rather see a B20 with its roof chopped off getting used and enjoyed by an owner who simply wants to enjoy it rather than watch B20s and such like being squirreled away by people who care more about a car's potential value than the driving pleasure it can provide.


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« Reply #31 on: 02 December, 2015, 06:55:27 PM »

This is a dodgy Spider:  http://www.rmsothebys.com/mo11/monterey/lots/1954-lancia-aurelia-b24-spider-america/1057402

Sold in the UK at a regional auction as a project, with Omircon clearly stating the the car had been re-bodied in aluminum. Purchased by someone in Central America who had been involved in defrauding a billionaire over teak plantations, but now wanted to get into the restoration business. Car was heinously restored. Somehow this person was allowed to craft his own bogus auction catalog listing - the resulting fracas ensured the creation of a new department for research at this auction house. You can guess why this car appeared back at auction last year - and your guess would be correct. You can also guess why, when correctly described, it did not sell. You have a possibly original chassis here, with a repro body in non-original metal type, with almost most corrupted restoration I have seen on a Spider since the early 1980s. This metalwork was apparently done in the UK in the 1980s - what is possible now can be imagined.

There is at least one B24 Convertible which was totally reconstructed out of perhaps a 10% salvageable body shell discovered near Trieste, the work was done in "Northern Europe". In 2007 when I saw this and pointed out publicly that the car was a replica, I was castigated online by loyalists of this shop who insisted that the car was original, despite being 90% new.

There are at least several people in Europe capable of completely re-creating an Aurelia B24 or B20 now. I have no problem with these "outlaws", but why destroy an original car in reasonably solid condition? Someone with enough money to pay for this, and a clear view of the capabilities now existing would be much better served to just build a new bodyshell. The mechanical parts are available, I have seven B20 and B24 motor "cores" sitting in my garage at the moment, all of which would love to be repurposed in this way. And Flaminia engines and transaxles are even easier to source.

This is something like taking an original Rodin bronze and "improving" it for your own pleasure. Why would you ever do that, as opposed to recasting it, which is routinely done? Makes absolutely no sense.
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1955 Aurelia Spider
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1959 Dagrada Formula Junior
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aureliaspider
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« Reply #32 on: 02 December, 2015, 07:00:14 PM »

RobD - You would rather see the original Rodin bronze modified by current day artisans - an arm cut off and another leg or two attached - to match the whims and aesthetic tastes of a wealthy collector right now, rather than being hidden in a museum basement for the next fifty years, and eventually pulled out to be exhibited in its original form the next generation of enthusiasts - of whom there will assuredly be many?

There is nothing illegal in doing this - it is just in poor taste, and very short-sighted - in my opinion.
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1955 Aurelia Spider
1958 Aurelia B20 GT
1959 Dagrada Formula Junior
1959 Appia Pininfarina Coupe
1960 Appia Berlina
1967 Fulvia Sport Zagato
frankxhv773t
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« Reply #33 on: 02 December, 2015, 10:38:56 PM »

Hasn't the classic car racing world already dealt with this by specifying how much of a car can be remade with contemporary materials and techniques whilst still qualifying as "original"?

I can see RobD's point of view but you can't fight the market.

Frank T
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DavidLaver
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« Reply #34 on: 03 December, 2015, 01:44:28 PM »


As far as the NHS and our school is concerned I'm very much trying to fight "the market".

Back to cars:

Are we in the UK ready for "listed status" as with buildings?   I've never got my head all the way round the ASI stuff from Italy, or why several European countries (and Australia?) don't have modified cars at all.

I speak as an ex-Aurelia modifier, Austin 7 special builder, owner of (laid up) rally prepared MG Midget (it was me) and custodian of (a very poorly) Strada Abarth believed to have been a GpN rally car from new.

Hot rods do it for me, I even appreciate all the modern MaxPower stuff...

David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
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« Reply #35 on: 03 December, 2015, 05:55:47 PM »

Although now moving away from roof chopping, there was a very interesting article recently on Veloce Today. It was a review of a book where the author had pretty much traced every hot rod Ferrari in the US. By that I mean Ferraris raced in the US in the 50's and needing engine repairs. Apparently back then you were pretty much on your own as a private US racer as far as Enzo Ferrari was concerned. So many had US V8 transplants to keep them racing. The author was saying without this, many (now) multi-million dollar Ferraris would have seen the scrap heap. A fair few have been reunited with their original engines over the years but the remainder have a certain value in themselves as a piece of make do and mend US racing history.
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« Reply #36 on: 03 December, 2015, 06:23:41 PM »

What is the book's title? I can't see the article. Maybe for subscribers only?
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Richard Nevison Fridd
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« Reply #37 on: 03 December, 2015, 06:39:59 PM »

There you are Richard - this should take you to the article

http://www.velocetoday.com/thoughts-on-ford-and-chev-engine-in-ferraris/
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1971 Fulvia 1.3S 'Leggera'  1999 Lancia Lybra 1.9JTD LX SW
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« Reply #38 on: 03 December, 2015, 08:07:02 PM »


I can remember that - and wanting some of them to keep their V8s.

It goes with the generic comment that "use is preservation".  Those "museum vaults" for restoration projects are few and far between, hence the excitement at "barn finds".
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David Laver, Lewisham.
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« Reply #39 on: 03 December, 2015, 09:18:29 PM »

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Aurelia-B20-coupe-1950s-memorabilia-literature-log-book-classic-car-/351589931483?hash=item51dc6499db:g:9AoAAOSwcBhWWFE4
So this is how 'new' fake B20s will start to appear. Alternatively, the registration data could be used for an outlaw version using a totally new bodyshell.
This seller has several cancelled buff log books for sale.

By the way the most recent fake B24 Spider I have seen was a red one in Italy 4 or so years ago. I came to the conclusion it used a shortened 4th Series B20 floorpan I recall.
No connection to the seller above whatsoever.
Chris
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Chris Gawne
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« Reply #40 on: 04 December, 2015, 07:12:27 PM »

Chris - yes I went to drive that car for a friend who was interested. It had come in two sections from a New Jersey junkyard in the 1980s, and was clearly put back together with something else - though the basis was an original car. Not sure you would call it a replica exactly. But, it was a mess. Great to drive through.

If we are thinking of the same car. The last time I saw it was at Technoclassica in Essen, a year later.

There was also a completely dodgy RHD car which appeared in Italy, also red, but completely disassembled. No direct contact with that car, but it looked wrong from the images. I could be incorrect though.
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1955 Aurelia Spider
1958 Aurelia B20 GT
1959 Dagrada Formula Junior
1959 Appia Pininfarina Coupe
1960 Appia Berlina
1967 Fulvia Sport Zagato
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« Reply #41 on: 04 December, 2015, 07:26:39 PM »

This is where provenance starts to come in. Once cars are valuable enough purchasers will want an authenticated history before parting with their cash.

Frank T
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