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Author Topic: Can anyone identify this car - Berlin 1930  (Read 3277 times)
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Lapsed Cesare Ferrari
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« Reply #15 on: 05 March, 2014, 10:22:19 PM »

The Maybach DS7 and 8 were very large and heavy cars with V12 engines of seven and eight litres.
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ncundy
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« Reply #16 on: 06 March, 2014, 10:05:39 AM »

About 15 years ago I spent a considerable amount of time working at the old Maybach factory (then and now MTU) in Friedrichshafen. They had a private collection of Maybach cars which I was able to look round on quite a few occasions. The Zepplins were huge, much bigger than this car. Photos of some of them can give the impression that they are elegant and almost delicate, but I can assure you that close up they are anything but! Mahooosive!!

Remembering discussions with his Grandparents, Jonathan is pretty sure they said it was a Lancia.

I'll look at the PreWarCar site, thanks for the suggestion Sebastion.
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Lapsed Cesare Ferrari
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« Reply #17 on: 06 March, 2014, 11:19:15 AM »

If the gentleman's grandparents were mistaken, which they almost certainly were, another Italian quality car would be good guess for what it might be. Resemblances to German bodywork will not tell one much, as a car in Berlin might well have been bodied in Germany whatever the chassis. Please see this link to a long Alfa Romeo 1750 for sale with Luzzago in Brescia.

http://www.hi-think.it/luzzago/hipgscheda.php?HIGNIdAuto=10505

Unfortunately the photographs are rather squashed. I have seen this car, and in the metal it looks both lower and a lot longer. Look at the wheels and the brake drums, and the bumpers too.

Ciao a tutti
Cesare
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DavidLaver
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« Reply #18 on: 06 March, 2014, 12:11:12 PM »


The bright rim is unusual...or is it only unusual now?   

I'm trying to work out if its an alloy rim with a riveted joint as I've seen on certainly one GP Alfa (or might even have been an Indy 500 Alfa) of that era.

The jump seats are great in that Alfa.

David
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« Reply #19 on: 06 March, 2014, 07:57:40 PM »

I can definitely see an Italian influence but I must admit that the car also reminded me of a Rolls Royce Phantom II of the period.

I agree with Sebastien that using a specialist knowledge forum would probably be your best bet for some resolution here. Prewarcars is good ... and there are other forums where posting a 'mystery car' will usually bring forward a well informed answer.

Let us know ... I'll certainly be interested!  Smiley


* Rolls Royce Phantom II.jpg (60.25 KB, 470x219 - viewed 163 times.)
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Sebastien
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« Reply #20 on: 06 March, 2014, 08:35:26 PM »

All the big cars mentioned, Maybach, but also Rolls-Royce Phantom II, are really very big cars.
To get an idea how big look at prewarcar.com and that picture of the Isotta Fraschini 8A, which is in the same category (6 to 8 litre cars).
The chauffeur behind is probably the same size as the gentleman in Neil's photo. He barely is visible behind the car although he is standing near it.

I do not think it is a Lambda, as the proportions are absolutely not the same - the bonnet is just too long. it could be a small Alfa (1750) however I doubt it, because of that bodywork.

So for me the car we are trying to find is in the 2 / 3 litre class, with small Rudge hubs and with a six cylinder engine.
« Last Edit: 06 March, 2014, 08:50:33 PM by Sebastien » Logged
Lapsed Cesare Ferrari
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« Reply #21 on: 06 March, 2014, 10:44:42 PM »

The Alfa 1750 is not a small chassis, and carried all sorts of bodies. I am afraid that Sebastien's reasoning does not exclude it.
Cesare
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Dilambdaman
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« Reply #22 on: 06 March, 2014, 10:57:10 PM »

Ok, going to stick my neck out here - if it is a Lancia then it could be a Dilambda (see photo of Modestine) or perhaps an Astura.

When I get back home from France next week I'll go through the many Dilambda photographs I have and see if anything turns up.

Robin.


* 20130612_142505 [30%].jpg (114.21 KB, 768x576 - viewed 159 times.)
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Robin Lacey 3222

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« Reply #23 on: 07 March, 2014, 08:15:54 AM »

The wheelbase looks like it's a bit more than 11 feet, which would be similar to a long wheelbase Lambda (11 feet, 6 inches) assuming the bloke is a tad less than 6 feet tall. The wheel spinners are too small for a Dilambda or Astrura, but about right for a Lambda. But that's where the similarity ends in my opinion. The doors must be heavy to warrant having three hinges. The bonnet looks to be too low to accommodate a Lambda (or any other Lancia) motor. It's certainly a mystery!
 Regards, John
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Sebastien
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« Reply #24 on: 07 March, 2014, 08:23:27 AM »

Let us analyse a bit more: what could be the wheelbase of that car?
Measuring on the screen I see that it is approximately twice the size of the gentleman. He is not completely erect so assume he is 1.65 m on the picture. Wheelbase would thus be around 3.3 m
The longest chassis for the Alfa 6C was 3.1 m and used on 6C 1750 Turismo and 6 C 1500 normale, that is the chassis used for the 6 seater torpedo shown by Cesare. (Source: Angela Cherrett)
And the Lancia Lambda had either 3.1 m or 3.45 m wheelbase. A long Lambda could also be possible, however apart from the Käsbohrer bodied one, Capolavoro does not mention other German bodies, and I also feel that the bonnet is not Lambda like.
I mentioned earlier the Rudge hubs, because they were used on high quality cars, and are an easy way to distinguish between car makes.
So the hunt continues...
Maybe I should ask Bill Jamieson...

(John: a good example of concurrent thinking, if this is the right word!)
« Last Edit: 07 March, 2014, 08:26:10 AM by Sebastien » Logged
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« Reply #25 on: 07 March, 2014, 08:40:32 AM »

Ok, going to stick my neck out here - if it is a Lancia then it could be a Dilambda (see photo of Modestine) or perhaps an Astura.

When I get back home from France next week I'll go through the many Dilambda photographs I have and see if anything turns up.

Robin.
brakes and spinners are too small to be either and as I said before astura's artena's weren't manufactured until 1931 so if the photo is 1930 .......impossible
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« Reply #26 on: 07 March, 2014, 08:42:53 AM »

My best guess is still:
Austro-Daimler ADR, either on 3.2 or 3.5 m wheelbase.
Body by Erdmann & Rossi, Berlin
A real quality car!
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Sebastien
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« Reply #27 on: 07 March, 2014, 09:36:34 AM »

Here another Erdmann & Rossi body, found in Wikipedia, on a Steyr chassis, dated 1932.
Much smaller car, but same treatment of the beltline, and hood.


* image.jpg (241.2 KB, 808x414 - viewed 111 times.)
« Last Edit: 07 March, 2014, 09:40:35 AM by Sebastien » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: 07 March, 2014, 10:10:57 AM »

Well, Here some more info, on the bodybuilder.
The body was most probably designed by Johannes Beeskow, who entered the firm of Josef Neuss in Berlin-Halensee in 1925. He is mentioned as designer for one Bugatti, one Maybach 12, and one Austro-Daimler ADR cabriolet. Neuss was taken over in 1933 by Erdmann & Rossi, where Beeskow became then chief designer.
After the war he worked for Rometsch, then Karmann.
So the body was in reality by Josef Neuss, not Erdmann & Rossi.

And It fits with my Austro-Daimler theory - it is one of the few chassis which used IRS, so allowed this low body line.

There is a German website on German carrossiers - also a possibility for a further confirmation.
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Dilambdaman
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« Reply #29 on: 08 March, 2014, 12:01:41 AM »

I think that the spinners could be Dilambda. Modestine has 18" wheels so the brake drums look larger than than on a Dilambda with 20" rims. Modestine also has 3 door hinges.

But, more compelling for me is the depth of the chassis in front of the A post. It's 15" and if you compare the bottom line of the bonnet side it looks remarkably similar to Modestine. I'm not sure that many 30's cars had such deep chassis side members.

Robin.
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Robin Lacey 3222

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