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Author Topic: Fulvia Alternator replacement  (Read 9828 times)
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lancialulu
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« Reply #15 on: 23 July, 2007, 03:31:24 PM »

Mark

My point is that these faults are not found except under dynamic load, as in my case the rotor measured fine but went erratic under operating conditions.

Good luck.

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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
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« Reply #16 on: 24 July, 2007, 11:36:59 AM »

If you want a reliable alternative alternator then the Japanese Denso 1L29 model ref: 27060-87211 12V  100211-4620

works superbly.

However it cost me 118 EUROS excl postage.

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Mark Webb
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« Reply #17 on: 25 July, 2007, 08:14:01 AM »

Any idea what it was fitted to?
Have looked on the net but no sites in english and none that make any sense to me!
Maybe my local motorfactors can supply if they know what it fitted of if its really recent maybe a breakers Yard.

Thanks

Mark
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ColinMarr
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« Reply #18 on: 09 January, 2009, 08:54:30 PM »

I know this is an old thread, but it’s relevant so let me post it here.

I had the dreaded red-light staying on a few weeks ago, which I verified as no charge getting to the battery. Tips from Mark Webb and Tim Heath encouraged me try and get the alternator off without removing the carbs and drip tray – not so easily done with a sideways bonnet when lots have to be done blind by touch! But it’s possible (just) even in a freezing un-heated lock-up!

The alternator turns out to be a Ducellier one and it is now with a specialist who is rebuilding it. But to my surprise the regulator, when I also removed is a Bosch unit – an early type with a coil and contacts – which looks clean and OK, but I am surprised to find what might be a mismatch of types.

I am tempted to find a Ducellier regulator to go with my rebuilt Ducellier alternator. I would be pleased to hear from anyone on this forum who has any experience of this and who might know where to source a Ducellier regulator?

Another option would be to fit a Bosch alternator, and I do happen to have one of these on my shelf, but this looks like it needs rather special 3-pin and 2-pin connectors. Again, I would be pleased to hear from anyone who has experience of this.

Happy Fulvia-New-Year wishes to all of you,

Colin
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chrislg
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« Reply #19 on: 10 January, 2009, 01:33:30 PM »

Hi Colin,

The original Ducellier regulator for the Fulvia is very difficult to find, however Omicron do a electronic replacement for the Ducellier one and it comes with full instructions on fitting.

Hope that helps.

Chris
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« Reply #20 on: 11 January, 2009, 04:41:50 PM »

Thanks Chris,

I had hoped to find an original Ducellier regulator, but it’s good to know that substitutes are available.

Just in case anyone is interested in seeing the visible difference between Ducellier and Bosch alternators, and their terminations, see below.

Colin


* IMG_0510a.jpg (130.05 KB, 768x576 - viewed 662 times.)

* IMG_0361a.jpg (136.04 KB, 768x576 - viewed 279 times.)
« Last Edit: 11 January, 2009, 04:44:34 PM by ColinMarr » Logged
lancialulu
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« Reply #21 on: 11 January, 2009, 07:16:57 PM »

Hi Colin

I have two fulvia's with ducelliers and regulators, and my 1600 was fitted with a larger Lucas alternator with built in regulation. I was unhappy with this alternator as primarily not oem and rooting around in the boxes of bits that came with the car I found 2 Bosch alternators and a strange cable that fitted them. inside the front wing I found the Bosch regulator so did a swop (having had one of the Bosch alternators checked out) and it worked. I would expect that a later Series 2 or 3 would have Bosch so an OEM cable should be available from the various sources of broken up fulvia spare. You could try James Parry (chugga boom)?

Best

Tim
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia HFR
1972 1600 HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1978 Transformer HF3000 Strato's replica
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi.e.
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« Reply #22 on: 12 January, 2009, 08:35:19 AM »

Hi Colin,

The Ducellier regulator (Paris Rhone type) was fitted to a large number of French car models, especially Renaults built in the late 60s and early 70s. The R14 is just an example. So it should not be a great problem to find one.

However, the old type regulators use internal moving parts which wear out with time. It is much better to replace the mechanical-type regulator with an electronic one. Again there is a long list of compatible regulators (all fitted under the RH side wing), but if Omicron has a supply, it is easy to get one from them. All the best, Andrea.

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Andrea Nistri

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« Reply #23 on: 25 January, 2009, 08:32:48 PM »

A little bit more information on this subject:
As my (Bosch) alternator has a broken stator I have been waying up the pros and cons of re-wind vs finding 2nd hand Bosch vs new. Along the way I have found that a replacement for this alternator is still made.

The Bosch part number for the Lancia alternator is 0-120-300-518. A company named ADI in France make a replacement for this alternator (part number AGN1784RS). I have no idea if it is dimensionally the same but it is 34A (vs 28A) so it may be worth a look?

But I was surprised why it is still in demand - apart from Lancia, this alternator was supplied to John Deere for use in his tractors ! In fact if you go on Ebay.com and type in alternator lancia you can still get the brush sets - advertised John Deere Lancia. It wouldn't surprise me if you can get them from agricultural engineering firms in the UK.

I have no idea what the cost is, and I would suspect that there are many more modern alternators (such as Denso) that will do the job. But if someone is feeling brave.......

Colin,
If you want a Ducellier regulator I may have one. I went digging around in the roof today seeing if I had a spare Bosch alternator - no luck but I did find 3 Ducellier ones, so almost certainly a regulator is up there somewhere.
« Last Edit: 25 January, 2009, 08:37:30 PM by ncundy » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: 25 January, 2009, 09:59:07 PM »

Hi Colin,

The original Ducellier regulator for the Fulvia is very difficult to find, however Omicron do a electronic replacement for the Ducellier one and it comes with full instructions on fitting.

Hope that helps.

Chris
difficult to find hmmmmmmmm, took me 2mins 2 find six of them Grin, 1 will be in the post this week
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« Reply #25 on: 26 January, 2009, 09:08:46 AM »

Neil and Chugga,

Many thanks for helpful comments, offers and the prospect of a regulator in the post. I’ll report back later, hopefully when the red light goes off again.

Colin
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ncundy
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« Reply #26 on: 26 January, 2009, 04:30:54 PM »

I'll leave it to Chugga to supply then as I don't like going up in the roof: too dark and too many spiders  Grin
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« Reply #27 on: 01 February, 2009, 03:17:20 PM »

Happiness is when the red light goes out!!!

The problem is now solved and I want to share it with you at the same time as saying thanks to all of you who posted with ideas and the offer of parts.

First, you have to imagine getting an alternator out, and in again, on a Fulvia Sport with sideways opening bonnet, where it’s buried beneath the carbs (in my case 42mm Solex) and hidden by the bonnet. (OK, I know I should have found an easy and safe way to remove the bonnet single-handed, but still I haven’t!)  And it’s in a freezing lock-up with everything you touch at about zero degrees. What fun?

The saga went like this:

Stage 1:

Alternator out for the first time, (after removing air-box, trumpets etc) and the Ducellier unit taken to a kindly repair man – he checked it out, replaced brushes and said it should be OK, but he didn’t have any test rig on which to verify this. He also looked at the Bosch regulator and said it looked fine. Fitted it all back in, but red light still on and still no charging. All the wiring checked for continuity and good connections and nothing found to be suspect.

Stage 2:

Second time out, but less time-consuming now because air-box etc still not fitted. Alternator taken to Sahibs Auto Electric at Hanger Lane – they tested it and found it to be faulty – said it had been assembled wrongly and diodes had blown. They charged only £40 + VAT to refurbish it, which I reckon was good value. Refitted it with high hopes and everything seemed to work – wonderful! Put the air-box and all the bits back on – everything still working. Pull the car out of the garage and leave the engine running while I sort out the tools and get ready to drive off – open the door to get in and notice RED LIGHT ON! It just has to be an intermittent fault in the regulator – so turn to Chugga-boom to source another regulator, this time a Ducellier one, which he kindly puts in the post. 

Stage 3:

Third time out, back to Sahibs complete with the suspect Bosch regulator. Sahibs’ team amused by my apparent incompetence and allowed me into the back-room workshop (an extraordinary cavern of a space filled with thousands of regulators and dynamos) where my alternator and my regulator were put on the test rig. Fantastic – all systems working: 14 volts, 35 amps and test rig panel light going on and off. Again, refitted it to the car with high hopes, but the bloody red light still on and still no charging! So, it has to be something in the wiring.

Stage 4:

Fourth time out, this time just to get access to the terminals to fit three improvised jump-leads to the regulator to by-pass the original wires. Ducellier regulator available if needs be. Refitted with trepidation and amazingly it works – red light goes out and 14 volts across the battery. So, replace the original wires one at a time to identify the faulty one – and it proves to be the most inaccessible of the three, the one that goes from the top of the alternator (marked EXC). Close examination of this lead reveals that the plastic insulation, which has gone brittle with age, had chafed against the underside of the carbs drip-tray which had bared a tiny area of the copper wire letting it intermittently short out to earth. Easy to replace a short section the wire and all should be hunky dory.

Stage 5:

Everything put back together and I take the car out to enjoy driving it for the first time this year – wonderful! Or is there still another intermittent fault somewhere else? Time will tell.

Lessons to be learnt:

1 Thank heaven I was not paying anyone else to do this!

2 Pay attention to 41 year old wiring that goes brittle!

3 It isn’t always the most likely thing that is the real fault.

4 If you have to do a job like this, try and avoid doing it in January.

5 Say thanks to friends on the forum, including: Mark Webb, Roddy Young, Tim Heath, Chris Long, Andrea Nistri, Neil Cundy, Neale Shepherd and particularly Chugga-boom and his dad. THANKS!

6 Take note of Sahibs Auto Electric at Hangar Lane (tel: 020 8997 8232). They test units for free, repair while you wait and their labour rates are only £18.00 an hour.


Colin



   
 

 
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lancialulu
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« Reply #28 on: 01 February, 2009, 04:03:30 PM »

Happy days!

But at least you have a sound alternator now for not a lot of bucks!

You can't beat these specialists. I have one in Colchester and what they dont know about auto electrical stuff can be written on a postage stamp. And if they dont know it they want too without you footing the bill.

Tim
« Last Edit: 02 February, 2009, 02:06:37 PM by lancialulu » Logged

Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia HFR
1972 1600 HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1978 Transformer HF3000 Strato's replica
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi.e.
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« Reply #29 on: 15 March, 2010, 09:36:02 PM »

I left off posting under this heading a year ago when I thought I was out of the wood and all was hunky dory with my alternator. In fact, by mid-2009 the red light had started to glow dimly although I knew there was still about 14 volts across the battery/charging terminals. I didn’t worry much about this until the red light started to glow more brightly that you might expect. I checked through the wiring and even provided parallel earth straps to try and sort it out, but to no clear advantage.

On the coldest possible day of February I took it all off again (did I hear you say frost-bite?) and took the offending parts to Sahib’s at Hanger Lane. Their Faraday’s workshop of test kit showed the Ducellier alternator had become suspect (a diode burnt out and perhaps a field winding shorting?), but the Bosch unit that I had taken along for test was 100% OK and Sahib’s thought it was the best bet.

I was resistant to using the Bosch unit because it meant changing the termination of the leads, and I didn’t like giving in to the idea of Vorsprung durch Technik. But the Bosch alternator is a bit bigger and heavier unit than the Ducellier one and it made sense to fit it.

The result is wonderful – red-light goes off like magic at even low revs with a full 14 volts across the battery and I am happy.

My conclusion is – forget about all the elegance of Ducellier and go for the brute of Bosch – if you have the choice that is.

Colin   
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