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Author Topic: Master Cylinder  (Read 4510 times)
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Kevin MacBride
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« on: 26 May, 2010, 12:00:10 AM »

A question !!   Series 1 Fulvia, very spongy brakes. The cars has had S2 front calipers fitted, retaining the original rears. I've been informed that there are no RH drive Master Cyls available, only LHD which have to be modified to suit.
Does anyone know of a 'modern alternative' which would suit ?  Or am I wasting my time fitting new seals. Any suggestions would be welcome.
I like to have a fairly hard brake pedal.
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« Reply #1 on: 26 May, 2010, 12:38:50 AM »

A question !!   Series 1 Fulvia, very spongy brakes. The cars has had S2 front calipers fitted, retaining the original rears. I've been informed that there are no RH drive Master Cyls available, only LHD which have to be modified to suit.
Does anyone know of a 'modern alternative' which would suit ?  Or am I wasting my time fitting new seals. Any suggestions would be welcome.
I like to have a fairly hard brake pedal.

A friend in Malaysia with a Series 1 Berlina used one from a Proton, being that he can't get any Lancia Bits out there, he's also used a Daihatsu Charade Alternator.

Brian
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« Reply #2 on: 26 May, 2010, 08:11:28 PM »

spongy is air in system. A failed master cylinder would be just that. No or limited brakes

Its not clear from your post if you have a duplex front brake system. (Brian can post a pretty picture!).

If so then part of the master cylinder may not be working on one circuit to the front (but unlikely). You can get new alloy cylinders (ebay international) using your existing internals and new seals, or more likely you can refurb your own with new seals if the bore is not scored. If lightly scored you may be able to get an engineering shop to lightly hone it. Either way you will need to seperate the plastic reservior from the body and that fun (not)!!

Plastic reserviors have not been remanufactured to my knowledge but I would like to be proved wrong (anyone?).

Tim
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« Reply #3 on: 26 May, 2010, 08:59:04 PM »

I read in an issue of Viva Lancia some years ago about a guy who fitted a master cilinder off a volvo 244 which would probably be a renault part. It took up a lot less room than the origional part, but was canted at a slight angle due to the alignment if the bolt holes. Cheesy
« Last Edit: 26 May, 2010, 09:01:25 PM by HF_Dave » Logged

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Kevin MacBride
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« Reply #4 on: 26 May, 2010, 11:27:56 PM »

This is a very early car, master cyl and dunlop calipers and a few pipes. The front cylinders have been replaced with later Girling calipers. I've gotton all the air from the system. The pedal has a long travel and will lock the calipers, but do not inspire confidence. I'm going to try new seals, and see how it works out.
Incidentally, a previous owner had fitted a remote servo/cylinder assembly. This was the original cause of bad brakes as the cylinder had leaked fluid into the servo. The owner wanted it removed and returned to original. The servo only operated the front brakes. the rear calipers are still the Dunlop type with a seperate caliper for the handbrake.
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« Reply #5 on: 27 May, 2010, 08:01:34 AM »

Kevin

Early S1's had a seperate circuit for front and back calipers as you probably know.

Later Girling calipers are on a super duplex (2 circuit principle). Has the "plumbing" of your master cylinder been adapted to operate the 2 sets of pistons in the girling front calipers from the 2 sets of hydraulic outputs from the master cyl? On S2 master cylinders the front chamber provides the larger pistons and the rear chamber provides the smaller front pistons and the rear calipers. Obviously this was designed to provide equal hydralic pressure to all calipers. If both pistons (small and large) are plumbed into one outlet then they are not getting enough hydralic pressure compared to the back circuit.

BTW S2 master cylinders were designed for this Girling super duplex but I doubt S1's were!! S1's are much more complex than the complex S2 ones. I would not rebuild until you have satisfied the hydraulic parameters!!!

Tim
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1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia HFR
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« Reply #6 on: 09 June, 2010, 12:03:47 PM »

Right, here we go. Fitted new seals to the master Cyl. The 'rearward' seals looked to be fitted 'backwards', as in the wider lip faced rear whilst the front seals faced forward. Is that correct ?  My parts book clearly shows the fitting of the front seals, but the rears are not that clear. The cylinder had been apart at some stage as the screws holding the resevoir had been 'cut' to accept a flat screwdriver. I tested the cylinder on the bench and its pumping fluid with no problems.
The front calipers as I wrongly said, are not from a S2 but single piston Girling units. The rear Dunlops are seized, with no rear brakes. It took an age to clear any air from the system, so all I have are front brakes.
Any suggestions as to an easy fix for the rears ? Do old Jaguar brakes have the same cylinders ?
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« Reply #7 on: 09 June, 2010, 03:29:47 PM »

Hi Kevin,
I posted this last year:
'At the Padova autojumble this year there was a Dutchman selling stainless steel brake cylinders made from T3-04 steel as direct replacements for Dunlop wheel cylinders in a range of bores from 1.5" to 2.25".
rising in increments of 1/8". They were not cheap but of course should last almost for ever and he told me he had sold 'hundreds' at the show. I seem to remember that the rubbers he used were made from something a little special as opposed to original Dunlop rubber seals.
Website is www.classictuning.com'.

My memory tells me that some fulvias had remote servo's - our S1 Sport doesnt have a servo - so this may not be a mod - it may have been how the car was built.

When Jacky and I ran early Fulvias as road cars back when, I seem to remember fitting a lhd master cylinder to her RHD car. It was at a slight angle but was fine. These are always available at Padova.

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« Reply #8 on: 09 June, 2010, 05:41:29 PM »

A question !!   Series 1 Fulvia, very spongy brakes. The cars has had S2 front calipers fitted, retaining the original rears. I've been informed that there are no RH drive Master Cyls available, only LHD which have to be modified to suit.
Does anyone know of a 'modern alternative' which would suit ?  Or am I wasting my time fitting new seals. Any suggestions would be welcome.
I like to have a fairly hard brake pedal.

He Kevin,
If you want to go the whole hog have a look at http://www.coopercraft.co.uk/products.html they do replacements for Dunlop brakes to modern standards, not excessive either but if you want to take part in historic racing etc I don't believe they are acceptable, if you want to compare what other vehicles used the dunlop brakes, if you care to PM me with an address I'll burn you a copy of the Girling/Dunlop Hydraulics Catalougue G262.
Minus the 1600 HF Fulvia, only 1.3 Rallye Coupe S were fitted with servo and oil cooler and opening front 1/4 lights as I understand it.

Brian

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« Reply #9 on: 09 June, 2010, 05:42:36 PM »

Coincidentally Paul LeClerq posted this (SNG Barratt) the other day on Viva-Lancia. Might be worth a try?
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Kevin MacBride
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« Reply #10 on: 09 June, 2010, 08:43:04 PM »

Thanks for all the advice, if it were my own car I wouldn't mind so much, but it belongs to a customer, who does not really understand that parts for old cars ('specially Lancias) are simply not available overnight.....
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« Reply #11 on: 09 June, 2010, 09:17:32 PM »

Kevin,

I have rebuilt Flavia and Fulvia master-cylinders in the past. I dont like the sound of: the 'rearward' seals looked to be fitted 'backwards', as in the wider lip faced rear whilst the front seals faced forward. I am sure they should all face forward, although I do recall one I rebuilt with an o ring on the rear piston rather than a cup/ lip-seal, which was neither backward or forward..

Each cylinder should do its job of compressing the fluid if one is rear facing, its wrong.

Colin
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« Reply #12 on: 09 June, 2010, 10:55:07 PM »

Hello Kevin

Early E type and Mk2 Jaguars use 2 1/8" fronts and 1.5" rears, and new ones are available off the shelf at Jaguar specialists.   The Fulvia does not use 1.5" rears, but the size they do use is not commonly available, so the Jaguar size could be the best compromise, albeit the diameter is slightly larger.   Any imbalance of front to rear braking levels could be adjusted by using different pad material or reducing the area of friction material.

(I do have Coopercraft calipers fitted to my S1 Sport, but that is another story, and send me a PM if you want more info.)

Regards - Roddy
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« Reply #13 on: 12 June, 2011, 01:27:48 PM »


Plastic reserviors have not been remanufactured to my knowledge but I would like to be proved wrong (anyone?).

Tim


I don't have any experience of the S1 Dunlop systems but I was going to say that new reservoirs for S2/3 Girling systems come with the master cylinder repair kit available from Omicron and elsewhere as I did one recently (see below) but I would have been wrong. I just remembered that the nice clean reservoir that I used for my overhaul came with a bunch of spare parts that I acquired from a man who acquired them from a man who had meticulously cleaned up all the loose bits of a Fulvia for a project he never finished. It must have taken him many winter hours and many different cleaning techniques for metal, rubber, plastics, etc. but as a result I have a nice supply of clean and "as new" Fulvia spare parts available off the shelf or some of the more awkward or time consuming jobs that lie ahead.

I don't think the S2/3 reservoirs are particularly perishable in themselves but, being made of fairly soft plastic, they are subject to cosmetic scuffing and to heat or abrasion damage in trying to remove the 10 or so allen screws that hold them to the master cylinder body. I have also seen some distortion between the screw holes of the flat face that mates to the master cylinder body due to expanding corrosion on the alloy body. However this may not be terminal as there is a large o-ring (marked "g" below) that makes the seal between the two mating faces. If you can get over the dismantling stage (even with merely cosmetic damage) they are pretty amenable to cleaning up and reconditioning. The other potential trouble spot is in the electrical contacts on the top surface of the reservoir which become detached. Soldering in new contacts on my old reservoir eventually worked for me but melted the plastic a bit.



Kevin,

I have rebuilt Flavia and Fulvia master-cylinders in the past. I dont like the sound of: the 'rearward' seals looked to be fitted 'backwards', as in the wider lip faced rear whilst the front seals faced forward. I am sure they should all face forward, although I do recall one I rebuilt with an o ring on the rear piston rather than a cup/ lip-seal, which was neither backward or forward..

Each cylinder should do its job of compressing the fluid if one is rear facing, its wrong.

Colin


Aha! I recently rebuilt a Girling master cylinder with a kit from Omicron which seemed to contain an extra o-ring seal such as this (marked "d" below) and which was redundant when I had replaced everything else. I did not worry unduly about this as the re-build had involved opeing up three old master cylinders and in some of these there was an o-ring instead of the rear piston seal (marked "b"and the same item as the front seal). I guess the Omicron kit makes provision for either approach though why there would be two approaches I do not know!

« Last Edit: 12 June, 2011, 02:31:13 PM by LanciAlan » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: 12 June, 2011, 07:03:49 PM »

I have also a series 1 coupe with dunlop brakes and have recently posted here about the rear brakes. My fulvia has no servo and i can confirm that the mk 2 jag rear pistons do fit the rear calipers. I bought them a couple of weeks ago from a guy on ebay... they are new copies. Have a look here and also the post on this forum.  http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360367471068&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
my master cylinder was salvagable with the new seal kit. I have yet to finish the rebuild but the rear seem to be good now . Cheers luke
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