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Author Topic: Bodyshell rust removal processes  (Read 633 times)
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Kevinlincs
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« on: 02 January, 2021, 10:40:10 PM »

Hi all. Has anyone on here had direct use of, or know of someone that has used the services of any of the bodyshell dipping services?
I've never used any as the horror stories of the corrosive getting stuck in the seams and bleeding out in the future seem far too real.
These guys seem to offer a good service which sees the 'shell stripped, returned to you for repairs then treated again before applying E coat, like is on new cars. This seems to be able to coat the hidden seams...
https://www.surfaceprocessing.co.uk/
Other companies like these offer stripping but I'm very reluctant to use as the inner sections would then be in bare steel, no matter how much you poke a spray gun in cavities the seams and all corners don't get coverage.
http://www.prostrip.co.uk/
Of course there's blasting, which may be an option but that only gets the visible surfaces. Any rust on the inside of box sections (which rust just as much as the outside) would be left untouched. Also unless they are very careful you can end up with warped panels.
I've done the usual Google searches which gets various differing opinions, just wondered if there was any first hand experience on here..
Thanks guys.
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peteracs
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« Reply #1 on: 03 January, 2021, 09:18:14 AM »

Hi Kevin

Not had anything done myself, but here is a thread on the Betaboyz forum re their experiences.

https://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4145.0

Peter
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Beta Spyder S2 pre F/L 1600
Saab 9-3 1.9Tid Cabrio
lancialulu
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« Reply #2 on: 03 January, 2021, 09:40:19 AM »

I have a Lancia at my local bodyshop for some metal and a full bare metal respray. Their preferred method of getting to bare metal is blasting but they also do dipping. As my car was a rolling shell I asked for mechanical removal which was what they did. I also knew the car was sound which is what it turned out to be. I have an issue with dipping as like you say there will be residual chemicals around to leech out in the future. I also have heard (witnessed some first hand) apocryphal stories of cars blasted which came back like a doily. Indeed at this body shop they had a client with a seemingly good mercedes 280SL pagoda which they stripped and sent to the blasters which unearthed a whole pile of problems that now made it uneconomical to restore. Moral of the story is if you think you need to blast or dip, have a good budget to put right (although it does not really apply to craftsmen like Kevin who do all there own work.....).
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
ChrisA
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« Reply #3 on: 03 January, 2021, 10:19:37 AM »

Went through the same dilemma a couple of years ago with my Fulvia body - dip or blast. I came to the conclusion that there is no right or definitive answer out there.  

In the end I went with Surface Processing and my painter IMMEDIATLEY put the car in epoxy primer BEFORE doing any work on the bodywork. Two years on and the body still seems okay. My understanding is bodies with lots of double skins and complex shapes (like a 911) can be more problematic than those with a more basic construction.

Dipping will maintain the integrity of the shell but will reveal everything wrong with the metal work. I have absolutely no relationship to SP other than as a customer, but with me they were helpful and seemed efficient. One thing I did do was brace the car before I delivered her as they move the bodies around quite a bit on pallets using a simple forklift.

On the other hand I've had a bad experience with a specialist sandblaster I used to do the ali doors (Penfolds Metalisers, Barnham nr Chichester) . Despite all the promises they would use almost no pressure and a soft media blah blah blah the doors came back like bananas and were almost scrap. My body guy had to spend days reshaping them and we almost decided to throw them away at one stage.

You also have to balance out the costs involved. Dipping isn't cheap compared to blasting and is an all or nothing approach.

Not sure this helps.
 
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Jaydub
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« Reply #4 on: 03 January, 2021, 10:45:34 AM »

Personally, budget permitting, I will have my 1600 HF dipped as it removes all the filler, underseal, grease etc without altering the integrity of the metal. If it comes back like a lace curtain so be it because you need to remove all the rot anyway for longevity. 10 years ago I carried out a body off restoration on a 1952 Type 300 Mercedes for a customer and used  www.surfaceprocessing.co.uk for chemical dipping and then E Coated. It was a great job and 10 years later is still perfect. They bake it after dipping so there is no leeching etc.


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1600 HF. S2.
Kevinlincs
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« Reply #5 on: 03 January, 2021, 09:23:09 PM »

Thanks for the replies guys, in particular the link to the betaboyz thread.
My own intuition on the dipping process seems borne out, the good part being it cleans inside the box sections, the bad news being it cleans out inside the box sections!
What I mean is looking at the inner surfaces inside areas like the sills (but would also apply to things like pillars and cross-members) it does a great job and cleaning the underseal off but there's no way in hell you'd ever get full coverage with any etch primer from a spray gun, especially between flanged surfaces.
I had looked on the surface processing website and the E coat dipping would appear to cover that issue, I have emailed them for an estimate on costs..
I have no concern over the car coming back looking like swiss cheese, or indeed with sections missing, there'd be no point in sending something that wasn't rusty so the aim is to get a short-cut to a list of rust to sort out.
So you'd assume I'd lean towards soda blasting as that would allow the inner surfaces to keep what remaining protection they already have, but that also means any rust remaining would be left to fester.
As has been said, there's no one easy decision.
Although I am leaning towards blasting to err on the side of caution.
I will be following the betaboyz thread though. As good a process as it looks the rust is already seeming to bleed through the applied primer. It will be interesting to see how the treated sections look by the time the welding is finished, and if it goes back again for further dipping what condition it looks like afterwards.   
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Kevinlincs
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« Reply #6 on: 04 January, 2021, 08:29:00 PM »

i had emailed the "surface processing" guys as they seem to be able to offer the best dipping process, with the important stage of the E coat application.
The price though is pretty eye watering....
Stage 1 is you take the bodyshell and panels to them for dipping/stripping, this gets you a bare shell devoid of all paint/underseal/fiillers and in particular rust. This costs 945.
You then collect the bodyshell and carry out the repairs which will be much easier as you can see what needs doing and don't have to pay particular attention to rust prevention.
When the repairs are complete you return the bodyshell to them to be further dipped to remove any rust that has inevitably built up whilst a shell in bare steel sits idle. This stage 2 costs a further 495.
Assuming then the E coat option is undertaken (why wouldn't you?, the need to coat inner sections is crucial) then stage 3 is the most pricey stage. The bodyshell costs 1,450 to do, the panels (2 doors, bonnet and boot) costs a further 400.

So that's;
Stage 1  945
Stage 2  495
Stage 3  1,850
Don't forget the VAT of course....
So the grand total would be 3,948!

I'm in no doubt that if money was no object then this would be the way to go, but reality is money IS an object.
I expected it to be between 2k to 2.5k, nigh on 4k is a lot to pay, a hell of a lot of sanding discs and my hours of work!

I will have a look at blasting, soda or walnut seems to be the way to go, but dipping without doing the E coat process isn't an avenue I would entertain as I still feel it will do damage that can't be rectified, such as in seams.

I'll contact a few places for opinions on blasting. Surfaces like the underside of the front wings I'd like to have scrubbed down, so getting a shell cleaned in this way makes sense.....I think!
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Kevinlincs
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« Reply #7 on: 04 January, 2021, 10:18:11 PM »

This makes for interesting reading, seems that Soda blasting has its' own pitfalls as regards paint adherence in seams...

https://jlnsandblasting.co.uk/soda-blasting-pros-cons/
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Kevinlincs
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« Reply #8 on: 04 January, 2021, 10:22:37 PM »

There is a guy in the village who does shot blasting and powder coating, I've used him a few times for suspension pieces and the like, does a great job. But a lot of his work is on strong, sturdy stuff so I worry for comparatively flimsy panels. I know he has done bodyshells though, I've seen anything from VW Campers to a 911 Porsche there so it's not unknown to him.
I'll call him up and have a chat, or drop in when we're allowed. Being very local is no bad thing either.
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Raahauge
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« Reply #9 on: 06 January, 2021, 07:40:49 PM »

I went through the various options a while back and settled on Fertan. My reasoning was that the rust to worry about and to treat is on the inside and this product seemed to best meet that requirement.  The website explains it all. No commercial connection etc, just a satisfied consumer.
It is a bit messy to do on the drive in front of the house though. Used initially on a Haflinger and then on an Ardea and an Augusta.
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Kevinlincs
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« Reply #10 on: 06 January, 2021, 09:00:59 PM »

I went through the various options a while back and settled on Fertan. My reasoning was that the rust to worry about and to treat is on the inside and this product seemed to best meet that requirement.  The website explains it all. No commercial connection etc, just a satisfied consumer.
It is a bit messy to do on the drive in front of the house though. Used initially on a Haflinger and then on an Ardea and an Augusta.

Interesting idea, with neither of the drawbacks of blasting or dipping..apart from still the hassle of scrapping underseal etc off, but not a bad shout on treating minor surface rust
I've used the usual suspects, Kurust,  Jenolite products before.
In fact I did a trial with Jenolite last summer cleaning some used Beta coupe front wings with their product and spraying with their red oxide after using their rust converter. I put them in storage to see if anything bleeds through....must dig them out and have a look!
Guess I could get the car stripped and treat that way if it all looks good,
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Kevinlincs
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« Reply #11 on: 06 January, 2021, 11:36:45 PM »

I've been pointed in this direction by Chris, well reminded really as I'd had a chat with them once at an NEC show a few years back.
Fired off an email to them, see what the deal is..

https://paint-strip.co.uk/car-restoration/
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frankxhv773t
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« Reply #12 on: 07 January, 2021, 12:30:01 PM »

I'd be asking searching questions about how well their high pressure water clears the ash out of enclosed sections and how well the electrostatic spray really coats inside those same sections.

I like the way that in stage 3 of their simplified description of the process they give a "piece of" (their) "mind", presumably to the rust. Boy, I bet they really tell that rust where to go! I'm not entirely sure that would give me as a customer peace of mind though. Verbal abuse isn't noted for its rust preventative qualities.
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Kevinlincs
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« Reply #13 on: 07 January, 2021, 09:01:57 PM »

I've had an encouraging email from them. Prices are much more reasonable than the previous place but also the pitfalls of the strong chemicals needed to strip paint by the usual dippers isn't needed, so there's no chance of paint stripper being trapped anywhere.
Better than that though I spoke to my friend John who runs an Alfa business in that area to see if he'd had any dealings with them, and he has. Said they are a great bunch who do a thorough job. He also had a customer take an AlfaSud shell in to them about 4 years ago so he contacted him for me to get his opinion on the process. The job was done perfectly and professionally with no issues whatsoever, back then or now.
I've been quoted for stage 1 , the thermal strip at 600
Stage 2 is chemical de-rust followed by hot phosphate pre-treatment at 500
Stage 3 is the electro korroprime treatment at 550.
This stage I had concerns over as I don't want a powder coated finish all over the car but it is closer to a wet primer finish but baked rather than a regular powder coat. OK it won't get the coverage of an Ecoat finish inside box sections but is said to be far better than ordinary wet primer, being as it is electrically charged...
They can do Ecoat dipping for the full 100% immersion but at 1,750 just for that it's a big extra cost, and if it means a bit of extra work and coating inside box sections then I can accept the savings.
The main aim of me doing this, or any similar process on the Flavia is to save me days and days of stripping paint, sealants and the old underseal.  To have a bare shell to weld without the guesswork of where areas are will , I hope be a revelation rather than wondering what is around every corner.
The guy advised that if I expect to have an amount of welding to do..(er, yes! there'll be plenty!) then I should collect the shell after stage 2 is done then return it once the repairs are done. This would then need a further de-rust treatment as per stage 2 but they only charge 100 for that instead of the full 500 repeat stage 2 charge. The stage 2 phosphate is also weld through capable without any nasty toxic fumes so unlike Zinc or Galvanised processes there is no danger of harmful fumes.
So for the way I'd end up doing it, by my reckoning, that's 2,100 to have the shell and panels stripped of all old sealants, paints, underseal, fillers etc and a far easier welding project resulting in a shell with all rust removed and ready to start for paint prep.

As with all things an online website and reviews can be taken with a pinch of salt a lot of the time but I value Johns' opinion very highly and for him to say they are trustworthy and do a good job reassures me greatly. I may well have a ride over to see them in a month or so to have a look at the operation first hand and sort out the deal.

My ideal scenario would be to spend the coming Spring/early Summer to get the car stripped fully and over to them by around September, once an appointment is made they say 7 to 10 days for the full process so as it'd be booked in then it would be back with me reasonably quickly. I could then spend the Winter time welding it without any rush and take it back next Spring, 2022 so that I would have the bodyshell back for me to paint it in the warmer months.
Sounds like a plan anyway...
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frankxhv773t
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« Reply #14 on: 08 January, 2021, 10:37:29 AM »

While you can always speculate about the possible limitations of a system there's little substitute for a glowing recommendation from someone you trust and whose work you respect. Their being open about the electrostatic spraying not giving the sort of coverage inside box sections as immersion coating is something I would count very much in their favour. It looks like you've found a most valuable local service and I expect we are all going to become more familiar with their work over the next year or so.

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