Lancia Motor Club Forum Banner
23 October, 2021, 01:53:11 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Need to contact the Forum Administrator? e-mail forum.admin@lanciamc.co.uk, for Database Administrator e-mail database.admin@lanciamc.co.uk      -      Copy deadline for Viva Lancia is 12th of each month.      -      For Events e-mail events@lanciamc.co.uk      -      To Join the club go to http://www.lanciamc.co.uk/join.htm
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: '72 Fulvia rebuild  (Read 9239 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
nistri
Megaposter
*
Posts: 397


« Reply #60 on: 31 July, 2021, 04:33:52 PM »

Timing the valves of the Fulvia engine is quite complicated and confusing, and it should not undertaken unless one is confident to know what he is doing. Personally I never used the Lancia manual method and always relied on the 2.2 mm method that I learned from Harry Manning. He actually used to sell these bespoke feeler gauges and of course the accuracy of timing depends on how accurate the gauge is. Basically the method relies on the maximum valve lift that is correct at 2.2 mm ONLY for 818.303 engines. This is important.

Assuming the camshafts, rockershafts, etc are all correctly refitted, the tappets screws of all valves must be wound fully inside the tappets. Then adjust valve clearance for inlet and outlet valves of cylinder 1 for maximum lift (2.2 mm) i.e. back of cylinder 1 cam lobes after turning (by hand) both camshafts in such position. Subsequently, turn by hand intake camshaft clockwise and exhaust camshaft anticlockwise until camshaft marks are aligned. If OK so far, there must be no free play for both valves of cylinder 1. Chain can now be fitted (if not done earlier) to both camshafts with its tensioner spring slackened.
Turn the engine until cylinder 1 is at top dead center (0 on the flywheel flange with 1/4 on the bellhousing) and make sure it is indeed at TDC. Easy to make mistakes here: I use a whistle fitted to the plug hole to signal TDC.
Turn again the engine one full revolution very slowly and check that tappet 1 play starts disappearing as flywheel 0 mark approaches. At 0 there should be no free play and as soon as 0 is passed slowly, there should free play for the exhaust 1 tappet. Retension the tensioner, turn the engine and recheck as above.

If these conditions are not attained for example on the intake camshaft, slacken the tensioner, don't shift the camshaft position and after lifting the chain by hand and carefully removing the intake sprocket wheel (and dowel if present), move it one or two teeth clockwise (advance) or anticlockwise (retard) for setting the intake timing correctly and refit it loose. Retension the tensioner and see if timing is now correct after turning the engine.
The procedure is essentially the same for the exhaust camshafts. If OK, set all valve clearances as per book (0.15 inlet, 0.25 outlet)

If the timing is correct, sprocket bolts can be torqued up and blocked with their locking tabs. It is very important to note that although working with cylinder 1, the distributor must be fitted with rotor firing cylinder 4.

The final check for everything done properly is:
rotor arm firing cylinder 4, timing marks aligned with marks on the camshaft front supports,
piston number 4 at TDC, flywheel zero aligned with 1/4 mark on the bellhousing, free play on inlet and outlet valves of cylinder 4.
I hope this helps. With Harry's method we  never had any problems for a large number of 303 engines over nearly 40 years, Andrea

Logged

Andrea Nistri

Ardea S2
Appia S2
Fulvia GTE
Fulvia Sport 1.3 S
Fulvia Montecarlo
Fulvia Coupe 1.3 S
davidwheeler
Permanent resident
**
Posts: 1253



« Reply #61 on: 01 August, 2021, 09:27:54 AM »

Brilliant.  I have taken the liberty of posting this in the technical information only thread.
Logged

David Wheeler.  Lambdas, Aprilia, Fulvia Sport.(formerly Appia and Thema as well).
Keithver
Member
****
Posts: 54



« Reply #62 on: 01 August, 2021, 11:34:26 AM »

Hi Andrea. Many thanks for putting this procedure in a post. I think I have now got the timing sorted.
I have a query or uncertainty.
I set up the three timing marks, with the chain sprockets and dowels all in place. There was free play on the intake rocker. Earlier in the post you said that there shouldn't be any.
To remedy that I go to your paragraph starting :- "If these conditions are not attained for example on the intake......" (The play was on the intake.)
You continue to say that in this case, one must loosen the intake sprocket. Didn't you mean the outlet sprocket.  Then turn the engine until the intake has no free play. ( the outlet cam remains stationery).
That is what I needed to do to remove the free play in the inlet.
Am I correct?
I then set the valve clearances to spec
Have I missed something
Logged
nistri
Megaposter
*
Posts: 397


« Reply #63 on: 01 August, 2021, 04:29:27 PM »

Hi Keith, very good to know you have sorted out the valve timing.
Concerning your query: the lack of free play on either cylinder 1 valve should be noted when you move them by hand after setting the 2.2. valve gap on back of cam. THis is what I wrote: "turn by hand intake camshaft clockwise and exhaust camshaft anticlockwise until camshaft marks are aligned. If OK so far, there must be no free play for both valves of cylinder 1."
Thus, when you write "To remedy that I go to your paragraph starting :- "If these conditions are not attained for example on the intake......" (The play was on the intake.)
You continue to say that in this case, one must loosen the intake sprocket. Didn't you mean the outlet sprocket.  Then turn the engine until the intake has no free play. ( the outlet cam remains stationery)." No, I meant the intake sprocket. I hope this clarifies the issue. Don't underestimate the possibility that an initial bit of free play on one of cylinder 1 valves might be due to wear of the camshafts/rockers.

Please always check carefully at the end of your procedure the final conditions I indicated "rotor arm firing cylinder 4, timing marks aligned with marks on the camshaft front supports,
piston number 4 at TDC, flywheel zero aligned with 1/4 mark on the bellhousing, free play on inlet and outlet valves of cylinder 4." If these conditions are not applied, don't start the engine and go back to redo the timing. Andrea
Logged

Andrea Nistri

Ardea S2
Appia S2
Fulvia GTE
Fulvia Sport 1.3 S
Fulvia Montecarlo
Fulvia Coupe 1.3 S
lancialulu
Press Officer
Permanent resident
*****
Posts: 4359



« Reply #64 on: 01 August, 2021, 05:21:24 PM »

For what it is worth I set cams up with a crankshaft pulley sized 360 degree protractor and a dial test indicator. I look for MOP and set the tappets on #1 to .4mm for reading opening and closing. MOP is midway between.

Depending on the cam you then adjust to the cam's MOP (this can be found in Lancia specifications by using the technical information of the relevant cam's opening and closing in the manual.

As Andrea noted the 2.2mm method is only relevant to the 303 and later 540 engines.
Logged

Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
nistri
Megaposter
*
Posts: 397


« Reply #65 on: 02 August, 2021, 06:07:29 AM »

Hi Tim, your method is very good but best applied when the engine is out of the car, Andrea
Logged

Andrea Nistri

Ardea S2
Appia S2
Fulvia GTE
Fulvia Sport 1.3 S
Fulvia Montecarlo
Fulvia Coupe 1.3 S
lancialulu
Press Officer
Permanent resident
*****
Posts: 4359



« Reply #66 on: 02 August, 2021, 06:54:30 AM »

Hi Tim, your method is very good but best applied when the engine is out of the car, Andrea
agreed but still possible with engine in the car.
Logged

Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
Keithver
Member
****
Posts: 54



« Reply #67 on: 02 August, 2021, 07:52:44 AM »

Andrea. Thank you very much. I have checked your final conditions and they are correct. The three timing marks line up. #4 is at TDC and there is slight play on both #4 rockers. The distributor isn't in at the moment, but I'll make sure to fit it so that #4 is firing. I hope that all is now fine. Thanks again
Logged
Keithver
Member
****
Posts: 54



« Reply #68 on: 02 August, 2021, 07:58:03 AM »

Tim. Thanks for your method. Please excuse my inexperience, but what does MOP stand for. The closest I could get to was Max Output Power. I don't think that is what you mean.
Logged
lancialulu
Press Officer
Permanent resident
*****
Posts: 4359



« Reply #69 on: 02 August, 2021, 09:01:48 AM »

Tim. Thanks for your method. Please excuse my inexperience, but what does MOP stand for. The closest I could get to was Max Output Power. I don't think that is what you mean.
Max opening point. Difficult to measure directly hence take half way between opening and closing (assumes symmetrical cams which Lancia Fulvia are). Determining true TDC is also critical. Normally OK but if a different flywheel has been fitted....
Logged

Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
nistri
Megaposter
*
Posts: 397


« Reply #70 on: 02 August, 2021, 09:38:07 AM »

Andrea. Thank you very much. I have checked your final conditions and they are correct. The three timing marks line up. #4 is at TDC and there is slight play on both #4 rockers. The distributor isn't in at the moment, but I'll make sure to fit it so that #4 is firing. I hope that all is now fine. Thanks again

Good to know everything is fine. While the distributor is out, it may be a good time to service it. Measure with a feeler gauge the axial play near its bottom gear: it should be 0.1 mm. If not so, remove the rotor arm, remove the rollpin at the shaft bottom, drift out the shaft and adjust free play with extra shims as required (these have a fairly odd shape but can be made by a machine shop). Excessive play on the shaft is one important cause of mediocre performance and it is very common on all Fulvia models. The diagnosis is readily made by checking static ignition timing and noting that it is different for cylinder 1 and 4, plus pulling up and down the rotor arm generates a clear clicking noise. The cause of shaft wear is very simple: the shaft should be often lubricated with engine oil through the purpose made hole in the distributor baseplate. When the distributor is fitted to the engine, the hole usually (though not always) marked "olio" is found near the shaft in the direction of the air filter. In my experience this is the most frequently overlooked item during regular maintenance.
If your valve timing is right, you don't want an erratic ignition timing. Andrea
Logged

Andrea Nistri

Ardea S2
Appia S2
Fulvia GTE
Fulvia Sport 1.3 S
Fulvia Montecarlo
Fulvia Coupe 1.3 S
Keithver
Member
****
Posts: 54



« Reply #71 on: 02 August, 2021, 02:35:41 PM »

Thanks for clearing MOP up for me Tim. I'll check my setting so far with your method. Just to re-assure myself that I have done it right.

Andrea. Thanks again for the advice, especially checking the distributor. It has been added to my list. I imagine, one of these days, my list will start reducing instead of expanding Smiley Wink

Thanks again everyone
Logged
Keithver
Member
****
Posts: 54



« Reply #72 on: 07 September, 2021, 12:25:51 PM »

I have had other prioritys recently but I am now finally confident that I have the timing correct. All three timing marks line up and there is play on both inlet and exhaust valves of #4.Thanks everyone for all your help. The only thing that worries me is that when I turn the engine (spanner on crank nut) there are (the only way I can describe them) "spring" noises. A kind of 'ping' as the valve springs compress. Is this normal. Will the noises go away when everything is properly oiled by the running engine.

The photo is of the engine as she looks now. ready to go into the sub-frame when I get the car back from the body shop


* IMG_3330.jpg (349.97 KB, 567x756 - viewed 153 times.)
Logged
Keithver
Member
****
Posts: 54



« Reply #73 on: 07 September, 2021, 12:54:20 PM »

Both sills, inner and outer, have been replaced along with the strengthening membrane between them and the sub-frame mount boxes. The right rear wing is done as well as the four lower patch panels that frame the doors on the four wings. All work inside and out has been coated with epoxy primer as far as they were able - photo 1.
Next is the passenger 'C' pillar above the rear wheel arch, inside the boot, the boot gutter, both visible in photo 2 and what is left of the lower parcel shelf photo 3.

I think I'll be going Lancia Blu for the body with tan leather interior.

What happens in the boot and engine bay? Some photos show both painted black, but others show them as body colour.
How did they come from the factory? (probably doesn't make much difference if going for Lancia Blu)
What are the recommendations for the under side. I have seen body colour. I have seen black rubberized paint and apparently you could even go with body colour over the rubber protection paint. In your group experience, What is recommended.
Just for interest sake, why is the speaker hole in the parcel shelf not a complete oval?


* DH Class_0051.JPG (80.06 KB, 1600x1200 - viewed 27 times.)

* 01dQJRI9580.jpg (293.89 KB, 740x703 - viewed 159 times.)

* 01fTZFV0681.jpg (299.78 KB, 944x477 - viewed 24 times.)
« Last Edit: 07 September, 2021, 12:57:25 PM by Keithver » Logged
lancialulu
Press Officer
Permanent resident
*****
Posts: 4359



« Reply #74 on: 07 September, 2021, 02:21:50 PM »

Re painting the engine bay and cabin are body colour with a flash coat of satin black on the central box section / handbrake area. Boot is satin black. Underside can be body colour then coated with a black rubberised protection (or just leave in primer and the protect.

Re your engine going twang I believe your valves maybe catching the sides of the cutouts on the pistons. Is everything standard or do you have oversized valves? I had this on an engine I was building. Very annoying as the engine has to be stripped to get to the piston cut outs. With care these can be opened up in situ.
Logged

Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Contact the Forum Administrator

LMC Forum copyright © 2007 - 2021 Lancia Motor Club Ltd

Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.067 seconds with 21 queries.