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Author Topic: Fulvia gearbox specialists?  (Read 991 times)
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jus
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Posts: 24



« on: 03 August, 2020, 02:35:32 PM »

Hi. Just wondered if anyone knows of a Fulvia gearbox aficionado in the UK?
The box on my works car can crunch when it goes into 1st (unless car is completely stationary and revs are low), and I'd ideally like it not to. I'll get the number off it when I get home, but I guess it's probably the piggyback version. It has an 818.540 number that I noticed at the weekend.

The further question - can this version of gearbox be removed in isolation to the rest of the engine - or can it only come out attached to the engine and the frame?

Thanks.
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1982 Beta Spyder
1969 S1 Fulvia 1.6HF Rallye
1971 Works Fulvia 1.6HF
1972 S2 Fulvia 1.6HF Lusso
1982 037 Rally
lancialulu
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Posts: 3978



« Reply #1 on: 03 August, 2020, 03:41:20 PM »

Does this synchro crunch happen when the box is hot? Any other suspect changes i.e 1 to 2, or 3 to 2.

If this is a works car gear box it will have had potentially a hard life and the engagement teeth will probably be worn too.

Oil is a critical factor. If it has not been changed then change it for something like Mobilube1 SHC

Given the it has a 5 speed remote that is the defining factor for getting the box out of the car with the engine in place. That is my preferred method as it does not disturb the engine bay. However you  do need a transmission cradle for either a trolley jack or transmission jack that can tilt the gearbox once it has slid out of the clutch housing. Obviously with the gearbox CoG on the stand and strapped down. You need to get the car up in the air (sill height minimum 700mm or you will be left with the gearbox stuck under the car...
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
Charles Frodsham
Senior Member
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Posts: 152



« Reply #2 on: 03 August, 2020, 06:55:40 PM »

Hi Jus

My car does exactly the same....gearbox has been overhauled.......I don’t think there is any synchromesh on first on piggyback box.....it’s just to get you off the line. It very low geared, so as long as you are moving second gear will do.
« Last Edit: 03 August, 2020, 07:21:53 PM by Charles Frodsham » Logged
jus
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Posts: 24



« Reply #3 on: 03 August, 2020, 07:27:09 PM »

Thanks Tim and Charles. I've not had much driving time so far, but I think that it happens hot or cold. I'll try and confirm that in the next week or two, and I'll check the oil as well. Thanks for the advice about removing the box - I'll wait until I get a lift.

The gearing on this one seems quite high and I thought it was in 3rd when pulling away the first few times I drove it. It's the main reason for not taking it to the hill climb - I didn't think that a major hill start with this gear would be pretty. I'm still working around this car (only had it a few weeks), but I've found that the floats in the Weber 45s were set differently - one was about right, but the other seemed to have around twice the gap at each extreme. The chokes were 3 x 34 and 1 x 32 - and I've changed to 36mm. Obviously - I've had to change plugs, as my Fulvias seem to eat them.
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1982 Beta Spyder
1969 S1 Fulvia 1.6HF Rallye
1971 Works Fulvia 1.6HF
1972 S2 Fulvia 1.6HF Lusso
1982 037 Rally
lancialulu
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Permanent resident
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Posts: 3978



« Reply #4 on: 03 August, 2020, 07:37:31 PM »

Hi Jus

My car does exactly the same....gearbox has been overhauled.......I don’t think there is any synchromesh on first on piggyback box.....it’s just to get you off the line. It very low geared, so as long as you are moving second gear will do.
From Flavia all Lancia gearboxes had synchro on first. Some crunch some dont. I have recently overhauled 3 5 speed gear boxes and 3 four speed boxes, replacing sychro cones as necessary. All were sweet to use afterwards.
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
lancialulu
Press Officer
Permanent resident
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Posts: 3978



« Reply #5 on: 03 August, 2020, 07:38:06 PM »

The gearing on this one seems quite high and I thought it was in 3rd when pulling away the first few times I drove it.
It could be the transfer gears that make it a close ratio but penalty is a tall 1st gear. Also final drive (2 choices), which only will be known when dismatled.
« Last Edit: 03 August, 2020, 07:40:39 PM by lancialulu » Logged

Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
jus
Member
**
Posts: 24



« Reply #6 on: 03 August, 2020, 08:58:15 PM »

Thanks for that info Tim. I've checked the plate on the gearbox, and this is what it has on it:

818.540

20 CORSE
2 TIPO
Then, it has MMA6V stamped into the casing just to the right of the plate.

Is that enough to identify it?

Thanks,
Justin.
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1982 Beta Spyder
1969 S1 Fulvia 1.6HF Rallye
1971 Works Fulvia 1.6HF
1972 S2 Fulvia 1.6HF Lusso
1982 037 Rally
angelorange
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« Reply #7 on: 04 August, 2020, 11:00:34 AM »

Jus,

Rebuilt several Fulvia gearboxes over the years including piggy back for S1 1,6HF with Tony Wilson (Hewland and classic racing car gearbox specialist in Nottingham). He is semi retired but has three spare S2 5 speed boxes which have been stripped and tested for sale.

Another option is Neale Shepherd in Ashby de la Zouch.

Let me know if you need more info.

Cheers

Lukas

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I'm entitled to my ignorance!
jus
Member
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Posts: 24



« Reply #8 on: 04 August, 2020, 12:10:02 PM »

Hi Lukas.

I'd be interested in Tony's contact details. I could temporarily replace the box in this car, and keep the original ready to go back in at some stage after a rebuild as I want to keep the car as original as possible. I'm not sure whether it has to have the original gearbox on as part of the FIVA card - but it would only be a temporary swap.
Thanks,
Justin.
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1982 Beta Spyder
1969 S1 Fulvia 1.6HF Rallye
1971 Works Fulvia 1.6HF
1972 S2 Fulvia 1.6HF Lusso
1982 037 Rally
angelorange
Megaposter
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Posts: 323



WWW
« Reply #9 on: 04 August, 2020, 06:19:50 PM »

As long as ratios are certified under homologation papers, then you should be good to go.

I have original piggy back 5 speed but use homologated gearbox for racing.

https://www.bacciromano.com/en/

but other italian gearbox builders do similar work.





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I'm entitled to my ignorance!
Charles Frodsham
Senior Member
*****
Posts: 152



« Reply #10 on: 05 August, 2020, 05:03:20 PM »

Hi Jus and Tim

Tim, your comments got me thinking, which is always a good thing, so I have just been revisiting an old thread by Neil Cundy regarding Fanalone gearboxes (“R.E Fanalone Restoration”).......

To quote......”The piggy back gearbox is based on the 4-speed of the standard cars but differs in detail, like having no syncro on first maybe because there was not enough space”
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jus
Member
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Posts: 24



« Reply #11 on: 06 August, 2020, 11:27:53 AM »

Hi Charles. Interesting. Didn't you just have your gearbox rebuilt by Tanc? Does your first gear have a synchro or does it crunch?

I got in touch with Tony Wilson (thanks Lukas), and he had a few things to say about the inner workings of these boxes:

"The trouble with worn synchros is not so much the cones themselves, which are not ridiculously expensive items, but that persevering with worn synchros (as one does), wears the engagement dogs. Worn dogs make it more difficult to engage, putting even more stress on the cones - it's a vicious circle. The engagement dogs are not only on the synchro units, but on each of the gear ratios too. Rectification involves new cones, synchro units, and all the gears - possibly the layshaft as well. It becomes prohibitively expensive. First and second gears are particularly under stress in any gearbox, due to the large speed differences."

All worth knowing.
Cheers,
Justin.
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1982 Beta Spyder
1969 S1 Fulvia 1.6HF Rallye
1971 Works Fulvia 1.6HF
1972 S2 Fulvia 1.6HF Lusso
1982 037 Rally
lancialulu
Press Officer
Permanent resident
*****
Posts: 3978



« Reply #12 on: 06 August, 2020, 02:30:19 PM »

Hi Jus and Tim

Tim, your comments got me thinking, which is always a good thing, so I have just been revisiting an old thread by Neil Cundy regarding Fanalone gearboxes (“R.E Fanalone Restoration”).......

To quote......”The piggy back gearbox is based on the 4-speed of the standard cars but differs in detail, like having no syncro on first maybe because there was not enough space”
Charles I will take your word for it - I am away (lucky me) from my parts books etc so cannot double check. I have not looked at a piggyback and probably would not want the challenge, but the 4 speed and regular 5 speed boxes are quite easy to work on. I have seen a 1600 5 speed box with well worn engagement teeth on the the first three gears but they still engaged sweetly if the synchro cones were in spec re clearances given in the Techni dati. The real problem with that box was an impossible good mesh on the crown wheel and pinion and it droned from 30mph. I have also seen wear on the 2 gear of a 4 speed with suspect metallurgy with chipped off engagement teeth. With my limited experience I have not seen any problems with the layshaft other than occasional need to replace a bearing or 2... It is fair to say these boxes are labour intensive though.....
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Its not the winning but taking part! or is it taking apart?
1955 Aurelia B12
1967 Flavia Vignale iniezione
1967 Fulvia 1.3HFR
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 Fulvia 1600HF
1972 1600 Fulvia Sport
1979 2500 Gamma Coupe
1988 Delta 1.6GTi
1998 Zeta
Charles Frodsham
Senior Member
*****
Posts: 152



« Reply #13 on: 08 August, 2020, 03:32:59 PM »

Hi Jus

I was pretty certain there was no synchro on first on the “piggy back” box, and my car confirms this in the driving. I only use first from stationary.

I have had a quick look at the parts manual. There are two diagrams that are relevant.....

TAV33A for HF(1), which is the piggyback box
TAV 33B for HF(2), for the standard 5 speed.

Both refer to item 29 as first gear, but only HF(2) refers to item 13, which is the cone.

I am no expert, but have a look and see what you think.

Cheers

Charles
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jus
Member
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Posts: 24



« Reply #14 on: 10 August, 2020, 11:38:32 AM »

Hi all. So - given the markings on my gearbox:

818.540
20 CORSE
2 TIPO
Then, it has MMA6V stamped into the casing just to the right of the plate.


Can anyone say for sure that it's one of the piggyback versions? I've not had the opportunity to get the car up on ramps yet to get a good look at everything. The engine is no. 14, so maybe the 20 is the number of the gearbox?

Hi Charles. Thanks for the info. Is the parts book on the forum somewhere?

Cheers,
Justin.




* GBox ID.jpg (156.17 KB, 483x491 - viewed 134 times.)

* Engine ID.jpg (142.47 KB, 482x558 - viewed 130 times.)
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1982 Beta Spyder
1969 S1 Fulvia 1.6HF Rallye
1971 Works Fulvia 1.6HF
1972 S2 Fulvia 1.6HF Lusso
1982 037 Rally
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