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Author Topic: New Delta  (Read 12687 times)
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Alan Temple
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« Reply #30 on: 12 June, 2008, 07:31:56 PM »

I hear rumours that because of rising fuel prices, Fiat are rethinking their engine range on the new Delta, it would be a shame but unless something unpredictable happens the public will make a wholesale return to petrol driven cars. I cannot help but reiterate that unless Lancia soon introduce alternate fuel, power units they will have missed the boat.   

Nothing was mentioned throughout the event. Believe me - Drive the twin turbo diesel and it's worth the cost of the fuel. It will be extremely frugal on M way runs.
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Alan Temple
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« Reply #31 on: 12 June, 2008, 07:43:01 PM »

Honestly, you will love the way it drives, but which one to get?

I think it will be well priced too in the UK and they said it would be no more expensive than in Europe. They actually asked me if I thought it would need a 5 year warranty to sell in the UK to which I replied "Yes as it shows that you are putting your money where you mouth is."

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« Reply #32 on: 12 June, 2008, 08:27:05 PM »

If you can afford it, I wonder if the 2.0 diesel, with 160+bhp and 139g CO2 will be the one to have - almost as fast as the twin turbo, and both incredibly frugal and cheaper to buy. However, the twin turbo also seems amazing given its power output, and still only 149g.  I've done my sums, and if priced as in Italy, the 2.0D is probably beyond my (company's!) budget, but the 120 diesel is going to be so cheap to run, and just as powerful as my current car.  Peter, still far, far cheaper for me than the equivalent 120 petrol...

Unfortunately, there is an opinion piece posted today on the Autocar website which is very uncomplimentary - the Delta is apparently, not special enough...  Seemed pretty special to me at Geneva, but then who am I to know, I'm not a motoring journalist, and apparently according to them my BMW is the dogs cojones.  Shows what they know...
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« Reply #33 on: 12 June, 2008, 08:36:32 PM »

Thanks for the article Alan.  Having read your comments, I have confirmed that I will be getting the Twin Turbo 1.9 M-Jet diesel.  It is the one I have been thinking of going for since I first heard about this engine.  I just can't wait for it to go on sale.

Chris, in my opinion, unless a car is made by either BMW or Mercedes, then no car will be special enough for either Autocar or What Car!
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« Reply #34 on: 12 June, 2008, 08:48:42 PM »

You are missing the point with the Delta. It's a 21st Century car and a cross between a C - D segment car.
LANCIA ARE MAKING THE FULVIA CONCEPT. IT WILL BE PRESENTED AT THE GENEVA SHOW 2009!

I didn't miss the bit about the Fulvietta, and I already knew they were making it (it was in the press last week). And I know it is a cross between a C and a D segment car, but who was asking for one? They are going to be the only participant in a market sector they have created themselves and will continue to occupy alone (just like those other two Fiat marketing triumphs, the Multipla and the Croma, both of which were great cars, disastrously conceived and marketed (just like the Nuova Delta). But they are making the wrong car first. As Audi know well, you build the image-formers (sports cars and high-image cars, SUVs etc) first, and the cooking stuff afterwards. Heck, even Alfa know this. So why are they trying to crack a market they crashed out of 14 years ago, with a cooking hatchback, and one available in 5-door format only, and with no performance engines? What kind of image are they trying to build for themselves? Their image should be the one that Audi purvey so successfully (classy grand tourer rather than out-and-out sports car), and this the Delta definitely isn't (although, as I said, I like it myself). I think their range of engines are fascinating and point the way for our low CO2 future, but the Delta is way too heavy to be a seriously economical car. The whole strategy is wrong - the car won't make a splash in an overcrowded market and the image is confused at best. By the time the Fulvietta comes along it will be too late (even the Delta has been postponed apparently almost indefinitely). I am sad to write this, and I write it with a heavy heart, but many years of experience has taught me that Fiat's marketing dept couldn't organise a booze-up in a brewery...
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« Reply #35 on: 12 June, 2008, 09:01:52 PM »

If they were making it look like this:

http://www.angolomotori.com/tag/foto-nuova-delta-integrale/

and it had 3 doors and was called the Integrale, I would be the first to say they were doing the right thing. As it is, I think this beautiful car, which I shall be proud to own one day, is destined for the usual Fiat residual hell. But it's sad because it didn't need to be like this.

A sensible strategy:

2008: Fulvietta, based as closely as possible on the previous one (the one they are making is going to be completely different and isn't going to be retro, or, as far as I can tell, even be called the Fulvia/Fulvietta)

2009: Soft-roader with green engines and seriously upmarket interior, based on the Fiat Sedici (but with a less silly name**) if they can't find anything better

**I write Italian text books, and for many years I have been vexed by the fact that Fiat give their cars names which sound fantastic in Italian but which Brits can never pronounce. I remember at the launch of the Tipo Sedicivalvole being on the Fiat stand at the motor show, and not one of the people on the stand could pronounce it correctly (unlike almost all Italian words, the stress on both 'sedici' and 'valvole' is on the first syllable - i.e. it is sEdici vAlvole, not sedIci valvOle, which is what 99.9% of Brits say).

2010: Nuova Integrale 3 door with seriously powerful (and green) diesel engine, lightened by at least 200 kg and marketed heavily on the basis that Lancia have won more WRCs than anyone else (how many people actually know this? I meet none...)

So there is a sensible strategy. But they won't do it!

« Last Edit: 12 June, 2008, 09:08:48 PM by sidevalve » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: 12 June, 2008, 10:38:00 PM »

Lets calm down. Firstly its a fact that the new Delta can never be a real quality car for a retail price of just £16,000.  Second, I know the launch of the car in Switzerland has been delayed until September because of oil supply problems, negative effect of escalating fuel costs and lack of dealer support. To answer Stuarts question, the reason Autocar like Audi and BMW is because, as professionals, they recognise good drivers cars when they push them. When Lancia introduce a Delta M3 or even an integrale journalists across europe will queue up for a ride. It amuses me when a couple of Lancia stalwarts who have never driven the car claim they will rush out and buy a new Delta, well, sorry but Fiat is looking to sell more than two cars, somebody tell me where the thousand conquest sales are coming from. If I may say this. Any new Lancia will need to challenge the likes of Bentley if it wants to succeed.
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Alan Temple
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« Reply #37 on: 12 June, 2008, 10:53:56 PM »


Unfortunately, there is an opinion piece posted today on the Autocar website which is very uncomplimentary - the Delta is apparently, not special enough...  Seemed pretty special to me at Geneva, but then who am I to know, I'm not a motoring journalist, and apparently according to them my BMW is the dogs cojones.  Shows what they know...

I don't think he was the guy from Autocar I saw there. In fact I don't recall seeing him at all. I'm trying to find out more.

I don't know what planet this guy is on with regards to the interior. I went to the airport in a Golf 1.6 FSI that I'm selling for a company to compare it to the Delta. This Golf has no go, the interior as bland and drab and without any style. Which car was this guy driving?

For a more positive view see Car online, although 2 stars for the handling is questionable. Mind you looking at the way some of the European journalists drove when I was out with them . . . a story for the AGM after meal I think!

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/First-drives/Lancia-Delta-CAR-review/

What is all this Focus chassis stuff? That’s exactly what the guys from Auto Express said during the test. “Chassis not up to the class leading Focus standard” I had the misfortune of driving a new petrol Focus in Ireland this year. The car didn’t go fast enough to find out what the chassis was like, the doors resonated when shut and the engine was coarse with no power as I had to abort overtaking when I dropped it a gear and floored it and nothing happened. I was told by the AE guys that the CDI is the one to go for.

Selective with Fords but not with Lancia? I'll be interested to read their review.
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Alan Temple
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« Reply #38 on: 12 June, 2008, 11:18:25 PM »

You are missing the point with the Delta. It's a 21st Century car and a cross between a C - D segment car.
LANCIA ARE MAKING THE FULVIA CONCEPT. IT WILL BE PRESENTED AT THE GENEVA SHOW 2009!

I didn't miss the bit about the Fulvietta, and I already knew they were making it (it was in the press last week). And I know it is a cross between a C and a D segment car, but who was asking for one? They are going to be the only participant in a market sector they have created themselves and will continue to occupy alone (just like those other two Fiat marketing triumphs, the Multipla and the Croma, both of which were great cars, disastrously conceived and marketed (just like the Nuova Delta). But they are making the wrong car first. As Audi know well, you build the image-formers (sports cars and high-image cars, SUVs etc) first, and the cooking stuff afterwards. Heck, even Alfa know this. So why are they trying to crack a market they crashed out of 14 years ago, with a cooking hatchback, and one available in 5-door format only, and with no performance engines? What kind of image are they trying to build for themselves? Their image should be the one that Audi purvey so successfully (classy grand tourer rather than out-and-out sports car), and this the Delta definitely isn't (although, as I said, I like it myself). I think their range of engines are fascinating and point the way for our low CO2 future, but the Delta is way too heavy to be a seriously economical car. The whole strategy is wrong - the car won't make a splash in an overcrowded market and the image is confused at best. By the time the Fulvietta comes along it will be too late (even the Delta has been postponed apparently almost indefinitely). I am sad to write this, and I write it with a heavy heart, but many years of experience has taught me that Fiat's marketing dept couldn't organise a booze-up in a brewery...

Sorry Alan but unfortunately I disagree with most of what you say.

Firstly, I don't believe anything I read in the press concerning Lancia as according to the press the Fulvietta has been on and off for years.

I for one want a C - D segment car. My Alfa Sportwagon was getting too small so I sold it. I've got two young children and this car is the perfect size for me and I don't think I'm alone. Things move on and cars get bigger. Look at the Series 1 Golf compared to the latest Mark 5 and they even do a Golf Plus now, or the Punto v Grande Punto.

Your Audi image making comment, well isn't this what Lancia think they're doing with the new Delta? BTW, Alfa will in effect be Lancia in the UK as it will all be run by Alfa UK.

"Fascinating engines, point the way to our low CO2 future? Too heavy to be a seriously economical car?" You can't have it both ways. These cars are class leading on consumption!

"Image confused at best" This car really stands out.

"Fulvietta too late" People were offering deposits to FIAT as soon as the concept came out. People are begging for it to be made.

"Even the Delta has been postponed apparently almost indefinitely" Where did you get that from? It's out next week in Italy and there were at least 50 - 60 cars there for the press and dealers launch. Oliver Francois told me that they have the capacity and could have launched the Delta in the UK this autumn in line with the rest of Europe but delayed the it due to the MiTo launch as it was not a good idea to launch a new model and brand at the same time, as most of the Lancia dealer will be new Alfa franchisees.

I think the main problem here is what people don't know they make up, pass it round to each other and then start to believe their own bull****.

Marketing - well it has been true for the last 30 odd years, but look at the new Alfa and Fiat ranges. Fiat Gp was dead in the water 3 years ago but now sales are up and the company has been turned around. Maybe the worm has finally turned. I know you view has been jaded by years of inept neglect in this area from Fiat but the proof is in the recent products and sales. The figures speak for themselves with both Alfa and Fiat market share increases in the UK and Lancia the same across Europe.

« Last Edit: 13 June, 2008, 01:46:21 AM by Alan Temple » Logged
Alan Temple
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« Reply #39 on: 13 June, 2008, 12:07:15 AM »

Lets calm down. Firstly its a fact that the new Delta can never be a real quality car for a retail price of just £16,000.  Second, I know the launch of the car in Switzerland has been delayed until September because of oil supply problems, negative effect of escalating fuel costs and lack of dealer support. To answer Stuarts question, the reason Autocar like Audi and BMW is because, as professionals, they recognise good drivers cars when they push them. When Lancia introduce a Delta M3 or even an integrale journalists across europe will queue up for a ride. It amuses me when a couple of Lancia stalwarts who have never driven the car claim they will rush out and buy a new Delta, well, sorry but Fiat is looking to sell more than two cars, somebody tell me where the thousand conquest sales are coming from. If I may say this. Any new Lancia will need to challenge the likes of Bentley if it wants to succeed.

I'm sorry Peter but just read this post back to yourself and tell me it's for real!

It seems to me that most of your "facts" in fact come from the top of your head our perhaps somewhere lower down.

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« Reply #40 on: 13 June, 2008, 08:23:34 AM »

I guess you mean the heart.

Of course I want to see Lancia sell well (I regularly drive current models as well as the opposition) but let me say, enthusiasts buy BMW and Audi because they are special, expensive, but special. They also get treated well by the dealer. My last company car was a current model Ypsylon (my Fiat dealer had never heard of the car) and I now run a Alfa Romeo 147 which is serviced by Neil Smith at Pershore, who thank goodness is an independant. Also, Lin runs a new Fiat Panda which Autocar (and in particular Colin Goodwin) loves.
My Glasses Guide tells me I was stupid to buy an Alfa and anyone who owns a new 159 will be aware of how savage depreciation can be. Do you expect Lancia to fair better? The general public and fleet buyers chose Golf and Focus because they are well built, easy to run and hold their price.
The industry is under huge pressure and nobody needs another ordinary car. If the Delta is something special it will sell. But the only special car I want in a moment of crisis is a low-mileage second hand Golf 1.9 diesel with full service history selling for £950.   
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« Reply #41 on: 13 June, 2008, 08:37:22 AM »

Motoring journalists like BMWs and Audis because they don't have to pay for them at their over-inflated list prices, and usually drive press demo cars with 5 grand's worth of extra kit which the rest of us can't afford.  Its like trying to compare apples and pears, frankly.  Do you like the £25k BMW or the £15k competitor, when you have no real interest in the cost and all you are really bothered about is how well it handles on a test track?  I've driven a BMW 1 Series for two years now, and it is not a very good car, particularly given that its a £20k motor.  No space, no kit, drab interior, uncomfortable, ugly, awful switchgear, low rent plastics - its only redeeming feature is that it handles OK, but so did the Seat Leon which preceded it, and was in every other respect a better car.  The only people who have had the good fortune to drive the Delta have so far been motoring journos, so its difficult to provide a counter argument, but I'm glad I spent an hour or so crawling all over a Delta at Geneva, and I know style and quality when I see it - and I'm not so wedded to Lancia that I won't go and buy something else if it isn't up to snuff.  C/D is perfect for me too - C sector cars tend to be a bit limited on rear legroom and boot space, D sector tend to be too big and too thirsty, whereas the Delta seems to me to offer a really useful compromise.  Autocar's relatively balanced feature last week suggested that Lancia needed to attain an 'affordable Maserati' vibe, which seems OK to me - comfortable and quick but not out and out sporting, with plenty of style.  I'd be pretty confident that with the right dealer support, the Delta will win market share, just as the Ypsi and Musa have done on the continent, and for the same reasons.
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« Reply #42 on: 13 June, 2008, 08:45:07 AM »

Autocar magazine love Lancia. Hold fire and read the unbiased Delta road test next week. By the way I have three journalists doing the Cotswold Economy Drive, one will be driving a Lancia. 
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« Reply #43 on: 13 June, 2008, 09:29:27 AM »

Mr Simister by any chance?  He's old school, a gentleman and a scholar...
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Chris Owen
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Alan Temple
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« Reply #44 on: 13 June, 2008, 09:45:27 AM »

Autocar magazine love Lancia. Hold fire and read the unbiased Delta road test next week. By the way I have three journalists doing the Cotswold Economy Drive, one will be driving a Lancia. 

Autocar may love Lancia, but maybe not that much.

They missed half of the event, which was very informative and gave the background to the thinking behind the new Delta, and turned up late on the driving day when most people had already undertaken the long test route in one car. After lunch time was tight and it was go where you could.

I followed one of the Autocar journalists up a long boring straight road with fairly heavy traffic up towards the mountains and then back down again in the same 1.6 m-jet diesel which is fairly ordinary. The Autocar chap only drove back.

Draw you own conclusions!
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