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Author Topic: Appia s1  (Read 1614 times)
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a1city
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Posts: 12


« on: 16 February, 2020, 10:11:47 PM »

Hi all, can anyone recommend a company who do white metal bearings for the above?
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Walbarr
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Posts: 36


« Reply #1 on: 17 February, 2020, 08:10:52 AM »

Hi there

I have a nearly complete S2 engine which I bought a couple of years ago from Richard Thorne
No idea as to the condition but would be willing to sell for what I paid for it at the time
This comes with normal shell bearings so a lot easier to rebuild

Let me know if of interest
Rgds
Walter
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mikeC
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Posts: 277



« Reply #2 on: 17 February, 2020, 05:47:10 PM »

Try John Kirby in Croydon 020 8688 2127

or
MCR in Worcestershire 01905 622166 email dom@midlandclassicrestorations.co.uk

or
Formhalls in Wiltshire 01725 511241 email enquiries@formhalls.com
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1953 Lancia Appia Series 1
1931 Austin Seven deluxe saloon
1914 Saxon Model A roadster


(previously owned Lancias: 1958 Appia Pininfarina coupe, 1987 Delta LX, 1986 Delta cabriolet, 1991 Dedra 1.8, 1993 Dedra 1.6)
Dilambdaman
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« Reply #3 on: 17 February, 2020, 10:47:10 PM »

I can recommend JEL Bearings - did a great job white metalling the Dilambda engine.

http://www.jelbearings.co.uk/white-metal-bearings/

Robin.
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Robin Lacey 3222

1932 Dilambda
1969 Fulvia S1 1.6HF Fanalone
simonandjuliet
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« Reply #4 on: 18 February, 2020, 10:06:49 AM »

SERDI in London ?

They have done Aprilias
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S1 Aprilia Cabrio, S2 Aprilia, S1 Promiscuo,S2 camioncino, S2 furgoncino, , R4 Sinpar, R4 Rodeo, R60 Tractor,R60 S, Moto Guzzi Ercole, Disco 3, Mini ALL4 JCW, Moto Guzzi Cardellino 73,Fulvia Berlina GT, Fulvia Rallye S, Royal Enfield Himalayan
chriswgawne
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« Reply #5 on: 18 February, 2020, 01:00:20 PM »

My current B21S project came with a set of brand new white metal bearings supplied by Cavalitto and I presume therefore Enrico could supply equivalent new bearings for Appia.
Of course they needed carefully boring out to the correct size for the crank but that will be the case no matter who does the re-metalling if that's what is decided.
As a slight aside, I had an interesting conversation with someone recently who was a great fan of white metal bearings as opposed to the later shells. Apparently white metal bearings will absorb dirt in the oil whereas Vandervell type shell bearings are very intolerant of dirty oil. This is why at the time of the change from one type to the other, the engine oil filter was considerably upgraded and became disposable as opposed to simply being cleaned out. It was also suggested that shell bearing cranks with dirty oil take more punishment and exhibit more wear than white metal bearing engines with dirty oil and also that white metal bearings may well last longer than shells as well although if they start to 'peel' they wont last long.
I always 'looked down' on white metal bearing engines but I have changed my tune although it certainly is easier and cheaper to fit a new set of shells as opposed to white metal bearings..
Chris 
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Chris Gawne
Mobile: 07778 216552
GG
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B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored


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« Reply #6 on: 18 February, 2020, 01:37:31 PM »

Chris - all this is true. However, two things about white metal to keep an eye on:
1) the thickness of the white metal - often its too thick. Word is that .5mm is about idea. Don't know if that's right, but query your source, and check after they are line bored.
2) the issue with older white metal, especially on big-ends, is the delamination from the rod cap, especially with age.

Your points about absorbing dirt is right on. Some folks with older 1930s cars like to stay with white metal - Colliers runs their 8C on these. My s.2 B20 runs shell bearings, changed oil pump and filter (now a spin-off), without issues.
« Last Edit: 18 February, 2020, 04:35:09 PM by GG » Logged

B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored
JohnMillham
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Posts: 981



« Reply #7 on: 18 February, 2020, 02:38:36 PM »

Chris - all this is true. However, two things about white metal to keep an eye on:
1) the thickness of the white metal - often its too thick. Word is that .5mm is about idea. Don't know if that's right, but query your source, and check after they are line bored.
2) the issue with older white metal, especially on big-ends, is the delimitation from the rod cap, especially with age.

Your points about absorbing dirt is right on. Some folks with older 1930s cars like to stay with white metal - Colliers runs their 8C on these. My s.2 B20 runs shell bearings, changed oil pump and filter (now a spin-off), without issues.
delamination!
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GG
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Posts: 434


B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored


WWW
« Reply #8 on: 18 February, 2020, 04:35:46 PM »

Thanks John! Correction made. Autocorrection rides again!
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B20 s.2, Appia C10 unrestored
Mikenoangelo
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« Reply #9 on: 18 February, 2020, 05:06:05 PM »

I think 0.5 mm is a lot thinner than was normal as the white metal was frequently grooved for oil channels - more like 2mm.
I have experience of using Ian Burlingham at JEL - he's excellent. He is near York

Mike
« Last Edit: 18 February, 2020, 05:07:51 PM by Mikenoangelo » Logged
Raahauge
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Posts: 52


« Reply #10 on: 18 February, 2020, 08:36:12 PM »

In addition to all the above I believe that crank journals were usually harder when designed for shells.
I have just taken my Aprilia engine apart and find that the BE have been converted to shells but without changing to a decent filter.
They show evidence of the muck that circulates.
The mains are still white metal and look like new.
I think I will convert them back to white metal but would be pleased to hear any further contributions to the discussion.
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lancianut666
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Slow but rough


« Reply #11 on: 19 February, 2020, 03:51:20 PM »

New big ends and main bearings are available for the Appia S1 from the Appia Consortium and suppliers in Italy no need to get them re metalled. They are bronze with a slight coating not solid white metal as older cars .
Clarkey
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Fulvia Coupe S2 Flavia Coupe 1967 1.8 Kugelfischer Prisma 1.6 carb Y10 Fila Y10 Touring Dedra 1.8 Dedra 2.0 Turbo Appia S1
ColinMarr
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« Reply #12 on: 19 February, 2020, 09:28:00 PM »

I can remember dismantling and salvaging bits from wrecked Aprilia engines in the 1960s. I recall white metal big-ends that had broken up or become granulated and I think the wall thickness was about 2mm or more. I also remember the practice of lapping down the end caps with fine emery paper (by up to 10 thou or so) to take up wear and then scraping the white metal to get a good fit on the crank. All of which took hours and careful use of engineer’s blue to test the fit. Sometimes this ended with great satisfaction - a rattle free engine with good oil pressure. I think the scraping was done with some confidence that there was a good depth of white metal below the surface.     
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DavidLaver
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« Reply #13 on: 19 February, 2020, 11:02:18 PM »


Colin - I did the same with Austin 7 rods in a great rush for a stop gap engine.  It's still in the car.

Is it my imagination or did some engines have aluminium bearings (perhaps not Lancias) or did some aluminium Aprilia rods run direct on the crank?

Aluminium is a broad term.  Anyone know what Aprilia rods are made of?  I can remember a story of a Farnborough boffin calculating a fatigue life that practice showed to be extraordinarily pessimistic.
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David Laver, Lewisham.
mikeC
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Posts: 277



« Reply #14 on: 20 February, 2020, 08:46:11 AM »

I think it may depend on how early the Appia is; my early Series 1 has bronze inserts, but the white metal is a good 5mm thick, certainly not a light skim. But then, I'm finding just about everything on my car doesn't match with perceived knowledge: the front main bearing is not interchangeable with the later one (contrary to the parts list), the cylinder head is 10mm deeper than 'standard' Series 1, necessitating one-off head studs, and I have previously found that the clutch components were unlike any other Series 1.
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1953 Lancia Appia Series 1
1931 Austin Seven deluxe saloon
1914 Saxon Model A roadster


(previously owned Lancias: 1958 Appia Pininfarina coupe, 1987 Delta LX, 1986 Delta cabriolet, 1991 Dedra 1.8, 1993 Dedra 1.6)
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