Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: nthomas1 on 06 September, 2017, 09:10:38 PM



Title: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 06 September, 2017, 09:10:38 PM
Travel and family commitments have kept me from spending much time on my S2 Coupe rebuild this year.  Over the last couple of weeks I've got back to the job of removing paint and old filler from the rear end of the car.  I also revisited the bonnet.  I'd cleaned and de-rusted it last year and finished it with a coat of black Hammerite.  I didn't take it back to bare metal except where there was rust, and I didn't remove all of the thick underseal-like coating on the spars.  Having worked on-and-off for two years now I've learned a lot and I've set my standards higher, so I completely stripped the bonnet back to bare metal last weekend, and have now etch-primed it - see pictures below.  I've bought timber and heavy duty castors so my next job is to build the dolly that will support the front end of the car when I remove the rolling subframe.  My welder (for the back end of the car - valance and rear panel replacement) - has let me down, so I now have to search again for somebody local (Ormskirk, west Lancashire) who doesn't charge Aston/Ferrari prices! 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 06 September, 2017, 09:14:16 PM

Looks lovely just in that primer.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 06 September, 2017, 09:16:17 PM
Lovely ! I know how long these things take to get them looking as good as that

Bon Courage


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: stanley sweet on 07 September, 2017, 10:00:04 AM
Looks very good. I take it that you can bring parts like this back to the house and can use use mains-powered tools to speed things up?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 07 September, 2017, 10:39:04 AM
Looks very good. I take it that you can bring parts like this back to the house and can use use mains-powered tools to speed things up?

I'm afraid not Stanley.  We live on the first floor of a Victorian villa and it's not practical to take parts up there.  Even if I could, I think it would lead rapidly to divorce proceedings!  So I continue to work in the garage with Ryobi grinders, scraper and drill, and take the five 18v rechargeable batteries up to the apartment every evening for charging.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: peteracs on 08 September, 2017, 01:41:04 PM
Could you use a small generator to save on using battery items if you have no electricity on site?

Peter


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 September, 2017, 11:12:46 PM
Could you use a small generator to save on using battery items if you have no electricity on site?

Peter


I did consider that Peter but I'm limited on storage space and was worried about the noise impact on the other people that live in apartments in the building.  I had a generator when I lived in the USA and it was quite noisy and I assumed the same would be true of ones over here.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: andyps on 10 September, 2017, 05:59:17 PM
Some of the Honda generators are very compact and quiet, not cheap to buy however.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 05 January, 2018, 10:27:12 PM
The car is now at the welding shop for rear-end restoration, new rear panel. new rear valance, new driver-side floor pan, new outer sills, and new front subframe mounting boxes.  So far the focus has been on rebuilding the tops of the rear wings - which were full of holes and badly rusted.   As the back end of the car is in much worse condition than the front I think the car must have been parked for a long time with the back end open to the elements.

I'm very impressed with the work that my welder is doing.  He understands the car, and is carefully and rigorously rebuilding, continually checking shut lines for the boot lid, and ensuring left and right sides are symmetrical.  There had been some previous rework to the right side that resulted in an excessive gap on that side which is now being rectified.  The shape of the rear end of the Fulvia presents quite a challenge to the welder.   It was also good today to see the new rear panel and valance held in position with vice grips. I'm looking forward to seeing them welded in place. Below are some before and in-progress pictures.  Onwards and upwards! 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 08 January, 2018, 09:14:05 PM

Inspiring stuff.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 January, 2018, 03:05:59 PM
A few more pictures of new metal being welded in.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 12 January, 2018, 03:29:55 PM
Looking good Norm, your body man knows his stuff. I need to start my restoration this year hopefully.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 12 January, 2018, 06:39:56 PM
He's a magician! He did some very major surgery on my Stratos replica a few years ago replacing a couple of chassis rails in the engine bay that carried the top mounts for the rear suspension after moisture got in through a gap I hadn't spotted. Oops.
He's also build a Stratos replica (that he regrets selling, it's how our paths crossed 30 years ago), had an Evo 2 new back in the day and has another pampered one now. His work on rally cars includes work for RED in Widnes on works cars plus many privateer cars and recently quite a lot of Porsche 911's. They rot something awful but values justify restoration.
If you remember the Peugeot 306 Maxi it was Geoff that made ALL the wings for the entire production run after Peugeot themselves failed to work out how to press them! Also in his portfolio is some pretty radical work grafting Ford Sierra Cosworth running gear into Mk1/2 Escorts and Capris plus Peugeot 405 Mi16 running gear into 205's and 309s.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/575194183642757391/

And he's got one of those as well, sold it, regretted it and managed to buy it back...

Highly recommended for his skills!

Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 January, 2018, 09:11:08 PM
Yes Guy, he certainly knows what he's doing.  He showed me the Stratos door handles that he made. Even my wife (shown holding the handle here) was impressed.  Very impressive!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 January, 2018, 09:15:22 PM
Some more progress.  The rear corners of the boot floor have been cut away to allow access to the wing area underneath, where corrosion needs to be sorted out..  The right side floor section is quite ropey so a new section has been fabricated and is ready to be welded in place.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: stanley sweet on 17 January, 2018, 09:37:49 AM
I'm always in awe of this type of craftmanship. I mean how many curves are there just on those rear wing edges alone? I find these kind of people tend to work alone but imagine being young and being taught by someone like this.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancianut666 on 17 January, 2018, 04:28:58 PM
If only we could all weld like your man....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 24 January, 2018, 04:55:30 PM
Some more progress.  Top edges of the rear wings now complete and primed.  Both lower rear corners reconstructed - with much new metal. A large portion of the rear of the rear wheel arches also rebuilt with new metal.  Just a little more fettling and then the rear panel and valance will be fitted.  Some before and after shots below.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 24 January, 2018, 05:21:20 PM
Looking great !

What is the rear cross member like - they get tatty behind the rear spring mounts and so easy to do when you are at this stage


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 24 January, 2018, 05:45:23 PM
Looking great !

What is the rear cross member like - they get tatty behind the rear spring mounts and so easy to do when you are at this stage

Not sure of the terminology Simon.  Are you referring to the box section that runs across the car under the boot floor, between the fuel tank opening and the rear of the car?  If so, that is in remarkably sound condition.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 26 January, 2018, 04:32:18 PM
I'm pleased with the way the boot floor is looking.  I had de-rusted and then primed/painted the interior except for the corners which were in poor condition. The following three pictures show the right rear corner: 1) as it went to the welder; 2) the template I made to help in fabricating a new section; 3) the new section made by my welder and fitted into place.  Onwards and upwards!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 29 January, 2018, 06:49:38 PM
Big milestone today.  The new rear panel and lower valance have been welded into place - following much corrective surgery to the weld flanges on the wings, and the edges of the wings themselves.  Just some tidying up of the welds left to do before starting on the sills. Very encouraging to have reached this point, and great to have found such a capable welder!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 29 January, 2018, 08:40:43 PM
Looking good Norm, he certainly knows his craft. I like the temporary clips holding the panels together prior to welding.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: stanley sweet on 30 January, 2018, 10:54:17 AM
This is going to be a very nice Fulvia. Makes a big difference when you find someone you can trust.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 30 January, 2018, 11:29:17 AM

Is that rear panel plug welded or a seam along the edge?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 30 January, 2018, 02:47:14 PM

Is that rear panel plug welded or a seam along the edge?

They are plug welds David. Done with a mig welder and ground off flush. I figured that would keep me closest to the original spot welds.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 30 January, 2018, 05:52:41 PM
The plug welds look to work well

Slight aside - is the new rear panel "dished" at all , top to bottom and L to R , or is it flat ?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 30 January, 2018, 06:30:58 PM
The plug welds look to work well

Slight aside - is the new rear panel "dished" at all , top to bottom and L to R , or is it flat ?


It is dished Simon, in both directions, just like the original. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 09 March, 2018, 06:46:14 PM
The first metal was cut away from the driver-side outer sill today.  There's plenty of evidence of poor prior repair work, but it's good to see that the inner sills are quite sound.  The outer sills will be replaced, as will a large section of the driver-side floorpan and the rear subframe mounting box.  The right door has been put back on in order to get the shut lines correct when the new sill and quarter panels are fitted. It's good to be working on the sills, having spent so much time on the rear end of the car!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 09 March, 2018, 09:55:54 PM
Perceived wisdom is to insert a central steel membrane twixt inner and outer sills. Adds a bit of weight but adds a lot of strength.....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 March, 2018, 10:51:42 AM
Here are the new sills, quarter panels and mounting boxes ready to be fitted.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 11 March, 2018, 07:13:09 PM
Nice .... looking forward to seeing them go in


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 March, 2018, 11:42:11 PM

Any thoughts on jacking points? 

My car has only one out of four in place and it is in poor condition. The others are missing as a result of some rather botched work on the weld flanges by a former owner.  Are they better omitted, with jacking taking place elsewhere, or should they be fitted?  As I'm having new outer sills fitted I'm wondering whether to have 4 new jacking points fabricated.  If that makes sense can anybody provide decent photographs and dimensions of them?  They are just visible on one picture in TAV but there's no illustration of them.   Here's a picture of one on an HF taken at last year's AGM.   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 13 March, 2018, 08:05:19 AM
Norman I would make/remake the jacking points and the sill detail so that the car is "correct". I think I have the template for the jacking points and can email you a scan. BTW are you going to add the central membrane between the inner and outer sill? Tim


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: chriswgawne on 13 March, 2018, 09:17:31 AM
Norman,
Your are doing a fine job properly on the rest of the car so please renew the jacking points (even if you don't use them).
These days I start from the premise that Lancia's engineers ( as opposed maybe to their accountants) always knew what they were doing so why try to change what was almost certainly pretty good in the first place.
And when the old car market re-adjusts downwards ( its the next thing to happen in the cycle) the cars that will hold their value best will be those which exhibit originality whether it be engine, interior or body.
I say this having gone down many expensive blind alleys in my motoring life doing exactly the opposite of what I preach these days.
Chris   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 13 March, 2018, 09:48:54 AM
Do you still have the square bits with holes underneath as well ? They are on the HF but not, I think on S1 cars. They are useful when there is a car lift available for tyre fitting etc


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: the.cern on 13 March, 2018, 07:11:47 PM
Hello Norman, I absolutely agree with Chris and Tim .... 'do it as it was' is a great maxim.
I have never worked on a Fulvia, but, from what Tim has said, assume there is an inner sill, an outer sill and a central diaphragm. If that is the case and the central diaphragm has suffered which is invariably the case, in my opinion you MUST repair it. This is a hugely important part of the vehicle's structural integrity. If you the whole assembly is not sound then using the new jacking point may well cause, at the least, local buckling of the sill. Ship and ha'porth o tar comes to mind!!

I have been enjoying your restoration saga, don't spoil it now!! Good luck!

                                                                              Andy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 March, 2018, 09:56:38 PM

Tim, Chris, Simon, Andy - thanks for the advice on the jacking points.  I will ensure that they are fitted and that originality is maintained.

Tim - thanks for the offer of the template.  Iíve sent you a pm.

Simon - yes, all four of the square locator brackets with holes in are still in place.  The first picture below shows left front, which is where the one decent jacking point is located.  The second picture shows right front, which is on a section of floor pan which is being replaced, so Iíll be careful to keep the bracket for reuse.

Andy - the S2 was factory fitted with a central membrane between inner and outer sill only at either end. It was not continued for the full length of the outer sill - so was not present for the central portion of the car below the doors.  Some people, during rebuilds, have fitted a full length membrane as Tim suggests.  I can see the value of that for strengthening cars for rallying or racing but am not sure of the added value for a road car.  I plan to talk to my welder about it when Iím next back in Lancashire.

Thanks again to you all for the advice and interest.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 22 March, 2018, 07:33:09 PM

Metal is being cut away to allow the new outer sills to be fitted.  There's evidence of a poor repair to the inner sill on the right rear corner of the car, so that is being rectified.  Work is proceeding slowly as my welder gets asked to do a lot of "urgent" work for motor sport teams.  That suits me as I'm not in that much of a hurry to finish, especially as I'm away in Spain such a lot, and it gives me time to work on the refurbishment of the twelve boxes of parts that have been removed from the car! Tomorrow I'm off to the Classic Car Restoration show at the NEC so have gathered a stack of hardware samples to look for while there.  There were quite a few hardware suppliers at the show last year with a lot on sale.

Last week I noticed that the flare on the right rear wheel arch was not as pronounced as that on the other three arches.  Further examination revealed a prior repair, using a lot of lead filler.  I decide to replace the wheel arch on that corner in order to get all the flares to match up.  I ordered a new one from David Ashworth ten days ago and picked it up today and dropped it with the welder who was impressed with the quality of the part - see picture below. 

I'm hoping to see a lot of progress on the sills over the next week.  On Monday I'll be helping to lift the body off the front subframe to provide access to the subframe mounting boxes. Will keep you posted. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 27 March, 2018, 03:12:59 PM
This morning the first new subframe mounting box was installed - on the left side of the car.  The second picture shows the jig that was welded up to ensure correct positioning of the new box. We kept the subframe under the car with the body hoisted up about 3 inches while the old box was being cut out.  That enabled us to lower the body back onto the subframe and connect the mount for final alignment prior to welding. A new inner sill section was then welded in place.  Next we're going to install the right hand mounting box before then fitting the outer sills on both sides and do some floor patching.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 29 March, 2018, 04:22:20 PM
Almost ready to fit the left-side outer sill.  It was something of a horror story when we removed the old outer sill and wing sections.  The rusty bottom edges of the wings and sill had been beaten in and new metal welded over the top, with loads of lead filler all over the place.  Some sections were half an inch thick - so I'm looking forward to my new lightweight car! 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 29 March, 2018, 04:48:40 PM
cant recommend strongly enough of putting in a central membrane while all is open. huge increase in rigidity....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 April, 2018, 08:51:04 PM
If squeamish please look away now.  Here's some of the metal and filler cut away from my Fulvia's sills and wings last week.  The rusty lower portions of the wing sections between the door and wheel arches had been bashed in and overlaid with new metal and lead filler.  Same with the sills, with a combination of lead and polyester filler. You can see the double layers of metal in the sill picture.  That bottom piece in the first picture measures about 20 by 30 centimetres but weighs a couple of kilos!  My car will be a lot lighter when I'm finished..... superleggera Fulvia.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 02 April, 2018, 01:01:52 PM
First sill strengthener fitted this morning.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 02 April, 2018, 03:54:25 PM
Did you make your own inner sill/strengthener or buy it in ?

Tempted to do the same when I get to doing the HF


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 02 April, 2018, 07:01:59 PM
Did you make your own inner sill/strengthener or buy it in ?

Tempted to do the same when I get to doing the HF

Simon - my welder fabricated it to his own design.  He does a lot of motorsport work so the lightening/strengthening holes were a reflex action for him!  Most of the applications I've seen in the blogsphere have been just flat plates.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 03 April, 2018, 08:03:40 AM
First sill strengthener fitted this morning.
Nice!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 03 April, 2018, 07:11:02 PM
Three more pictures of the sill strengtheners: (1) the holes being cut with a plasma cutter, (2) forming the flares around the holes, (c) the final insert ready for fitment.   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 03 April, 2018, 08:07:13 PM
I like that !

Dog has a plasma cutter and I have a press, so should be possible here in rural France as well .....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 03 April, 2018, 10:14:39 PM

A couple of times I've come across people with plasma cutters they don't use, a 1mm disk or an air saw being weapons of choice.  Cutting holes that neat is a great example of what a plasma does well... 

Was wondering how big a starrett hole saw went - five inches is the answer...  I expect "if it was me" I'd be trying to get a jigsaw to turn tight enough.

Looking at that press I wonder if it would punch those holes. Found tools at sensible prices for two inches.  That's got to be close?  For a 2in saw £10, £40 for the press tool.  The really big saw is £30.  I wonder how many jig saw blades I'd get through...

Turns out a tool NOT to use is a zip saw:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/RotoZip-XB-MC1-Metal-Cutting-XBIT/dp/B000CEQEZ4/ref=sr_1_9?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1522793157&sr=1-9&keywords=rotozip+saw


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 04 April, 2018, 08:00:01 AM
Before Geoff got his plasma cutter he used to punch holes with this sort of kit - inexpensive if you're using them all the time and only doing one size, easy to use.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BGS-Screw-Hole-Punch-32-mm-For-Stainless-Steel-Sinks-Taps-Etc-3902/272251063721?epid=2255403975&hash=item3f636d8da9:g:7toAAOSwbPxXQdzG
I've never seen him using the press to form the edges though it is the easiest way. Whenever I've wanted to countersink a hole in steel or ally I've used a socket on one size, a suitably sized ball bearing. And a hammer. It works but isn't as precise as what Geoff achieves.
Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 04 April, 2018, 10:33:43 AM
Ah...so THAT'S the tool for the job...

You got me looking - and I found larger.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Exact-30515-63-5mm-M63-Screw-Hole-Punch/152940124581?epid=574846079&hash=item239bf119a5:g:JPMAAOSwOhVZtbe8

"Facom" is the other brand I saw, but quite a bit more expensive and still with 63mm as the maximum.  For "money no object" they do a hydraulic driver.

"Q Max" go to 75mm.

At the budget end Frosts have a set, and also sell the flair tools:

https://www.frost.co.uk/set-of-4-knockout-punch-set-circular-punches.html

https://www.frost.co.uk/hole-flares.html

RS have a wide range. 

"Punch/flare" yeilds three part sets like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Allstar-Performance-11076-Punch-Flare-Tool-2-5-8-Diameter-Hole-Steel-in-Black/232685120558?epid=1437060428&hash=item362d1d2c2e:g:4g4AAOSwYRhamhF2


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 04 April, 2018, 08:58:01 PM
Just saw this on Ebay.  My wife thinks it is very appropriate!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: D5177_55A on 05 April, 2018, 05:09:10 PM
Blimey, with all the Fulviaís off the road, that guy must be a millionaire!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 07 April, 2018, 08:49:22 PM

Having browsed a few days ago the internet now throws similar back at me.  From their web page I like this supplier.  The "about" reads well and the opening times has "If you are looking to spend an obscene amount of money we may even open up on a Saturday morning or evening for a private viewing!"

https://www.stakesys.co.uk/hole-punches-hole-saws

Then there's the look-a-likey for a whole set and hydraulic puttler for the price of one punch...how do they do it...?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hydraulic-Round-Hole-Punch-Kits-Metalworking-Hand-Tool-W-6-Dies-22-to-60mm/182710936112?epid=2209810059&hash=item2a8a6ba230:g:5wYAAOSwQwBZi~Z2

I still think the "if it was me" would be a hole saw, a hammer, and a bit of pipe, but interesting to see what's out there and how its done properly.  The stakesys write up on the flares was interesting - if you like that sort of thing :)   "Aircraft flares and automotive flares Ė whatís the difference?"

https://www.stakesys.co.uk/stakesy-s-sheet-metal-hole-flares


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 07 April, 2018, 09:08:12 PM
Left side almost finished.  Just some fettling to the rear wheel arch.  So that's a new subframe mounting box, half inner sill, two floor patches, sill strengthener, outer sill, and quarter wing sections all fitted, as well as patching to the inner wheel arches. Take a look at the thickness of the lead filler in the first picture....... that necessitated removing more of the wing than was originally thought necessary.

Now to the right side!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 07 April, 2018, 09:27:04 PM
Then there's the look-a-likey for a whole set and hydraulic puttler for the price of one punch...how do they do it...?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hydraulic-Round-Hole-Punch-Kits-Metalworking-Hand-Tool-W-6-Dies-22-to-60mm/182710936112?epid=2209810059&hash=item2a8a6ba230:g:5wYAAOSwQwBZi~Z2


Cheap tools from China. I'm not saying the quality is bad but you may have to wait a while for them to arrive and will have problems with warranty claims... As with anything on eBay, check out the sellers feedback rating, use a credit card through PayPal so you're covered for non delivery and don't order if you're at all suspicious or need the goods quick. Also check out the item using the same description, there are sellers out there using multiple names that you can spot by their standard feedback comments, especially on negative feedbacks.
Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 08 April, 2018, 06:22:31 PM
There might be enough lead to weigh in at the local scrappy and pay for the restoration. ;D


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 April, 2018, 05:02:11 PM
My welding guy also builds and sells high-end racing simulators, so I got to drive the Col de Turini in a Fulvia while I was there today.  My car looked on enviously (or perhaps dreading the day when I get behind the wheel of it!)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 13 April, 2018, 07:04:40 PM
My welding guy also builds and sells high-end racing simulators, so I got to drive the Col de Turini in a Fulvia while I was there today.  My car looked on enviously (or perhaps dreading the day when I get behind the wheel of it!)
I have driven CdT in my white HF with Fulvia friends on the 50th Anniversario rally its worth a go as we went up in semi darkness due to various problems. Stayed the night at the top then went down the other side in the morning sounding glorious on the multiple Fulvia overruns!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 13 April, 2018, 11:03:56 PM
My welding guy also builds and sells high-end racing simulators, so I got to drive the Col de Turini in a Fulvia while I was there today.  My car looked on enviously (or perhaps dreading the day when I get behind the wheel of it!)
I have driven CdT in my white HF with Fulvia friends on the 50th Anniversario rally its worth a go as we went up in semi darkness due to various problems. Stayed the night at the top then went down the other side in the morning sounding glorious on the multiple Fulvia overruns!
It was glorious and never to be forgotten, not sure which was more exciting going up in the total darkness in my case, or batting down the other side popping and banging on the overrun in the daylight😆
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 14 April, 2018, 01:22:26 PM
My welding guy also builds and sells high-end racing simulators, so I got to drive the Col de Turini in a Fulvia while I was there today.  My car looked on enviously (or perhaps dreading the day when I get behind the wheel of it!)

Did you try it with the Virtual Reality goggles Norm? I see Geoff in the background fixing another alloy wheel - probably another German cheese one..


I spotted this on eBay

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LANCIA-FULVIA-COUPE-BREAKING-SERIES-2-LISTING-FOR-A-SET-OF-WHEEL-NUTS/152949496138?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49131%26meid%3Dc61f2a318c3e47aeb6b0ff4494e6c279%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D232732693756%26itm%3D152949496138&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

Might be worth asking what state the seat hinge chrome is in?

Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 April, 2018, 09:16:34 PM
No Guy - I didn't try it with the VR goggles, maybe next time.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 April, 2018, 09:24:54 PM

I am struggling to determine the shape of the trailing edges of the doors.  Mine are badly corroded, with metal missing.  The first picture below shows the right hand door.  Alongside I've put a sketch where I've filled in with shading what I think the correct outline should be. The second picture shows the left door.  Does anybody have any pictures by any chance of door tops without trim that I could use a guide?   I'm particularly concerned to get the top edge of the door jamb (if that is the right terminology) correct.  The front and back surfaces seem more obvious.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 16 April, 2018, 07:52:54 PM
I don't know if these help at all. They are alloy doors but may be similar.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 April, 2018, 08:54:03 PM
Thanks Frank.  I would assume that the top edge profile is the same on alloy and steel doors as the trim is interchangeable.  If these are doors in your possession, rather than reference photos from your files, would it be possible for you to take a couple of close-up pictures of the trailing edges - similar views to those I included in my post?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 17 April, 2018, 07:01:45 AM
If not, I can send some pictures later in the week when we get back from Spain


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 17 April, 2018, 05:43:11 PM
Sorry Norman, they are just part of my hoard of pictures culled from the internet on the basis that they may be of use to someone some day.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 April, 2018, 10:00:51 PM
OK Frank - i suspected the pictures might be from your files.  I too keep a large number of reference images!

Simon - that would be great if you could provide some images.  There's no hurry as I'm off to Spain tomorrow for 6 weeks so work on my rebuild is suspended.  I've spent the last few days refurbishing parts from the 12 boxes that contain most of my Fulvia - less body, subframe  and engine.  I'm finding the work quite enjoyable - not tedious as I'd expected.  Thanks for your tip about using phosphoric acid as rust remover.  It's extremely effective.  I have a row of 6 jars and a couple of trays with parts soaking in readiness for wire brushing and final fettling before painting.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 25 April, 2018, 09:00:47 PM
The last job I was doing before heading for Spain was tidying up the engine bay and rear side of the front valance.  A lot of wire brushing and sanding/grinding, then residual rust treatment, priming and painting.  Here's some shots of progress on the inside of the front valance that I'm quite pleased with.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: stanley sweet on 26 April, 2018, 08:52:31 AM
That's good work with the engine in situ. Looks like knuckle grazing work. Suffrage looks good too. That should have read subframe. I'm beginning to think my phone is an Enigma machine.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 02 May, 2018, 07:13:24 PM
As promised, pictures of the door edge - let me know if you want more or better quality .....

Great job with the valance - especially with the engine in place, difficult to do !


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 03 May, 2018, 08:50:01 PM
Great - thanks Simon. Thatís exactly what I was looking for!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 10 May, 2018, 12:51:24 PM
Seat hinges - still looking for any decent ones Norman?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-seat-guide-USED-Lancia-Fulvia-Coupe/173311052911?hash=item285a24cc6f:g:ngQAAOSwwbdWINFe

One day I'll find some cheap ones!

Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 10 May, 2018, 01:06:01 PM
single seat fulvia!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 10 May, 2018, 06:10:13 PM
Seat hinges - still looking for any decent ones Norman?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-seat-guide-USED-Lancia-Fulvia-Coupe/173311052911?hash=item285a24cc6f:g:ngQAAOSwwbdWINFe

One day I'll find some cheap ones!

Guy


Tricky decisions at every point Guy!
I'm reluctant to splash out this sort of money for a pair when it's actually only half of one pair that is badly pitted.  Will continue to ponder this as I continue work on the body.  Dismantling and getting the one arm chromed may still be best option.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 10 May, 2018, 06:15:08 PM
Like Simon with his HF, Iíve been tidying up the engine bay on my car.  I've been fortunate that my welder has been happy for me to work on my car while in his workshop.  I imagine that's rare but we are both Lancia and motor racing enthusiasts so spend a lot of time sharing stories.  When I get back from Spain in a monthís time Iíll continue with this engine bay tidying.  Iíve been getting rid of all rust then painting with smooth white Hammerite Direct-to-Rust paint to catch any residual rust that Iíve missed.  The colour is not that far off Bianco Saratoga but my intention is to later prime and paint over the Hammerite with body colour.

The first picture below shows an area that Iíve worked on - rear horizontal surface plus part of the rear of the dashboard/bulkhead.  To make it easier to work on the rest of the horizontal surfaces I will remove the chassis plates - assuming that it will be easy to re-rivet them back on. I bought a riveter but (like most of the tools I've bought) have never used one before so will practice first!

Iíd also like to remove the windscreen wipers and motor to improve access.   Are there any hints/tips for doing this?  I read somewhere that when the rubber-insulated mounts in the engine bay are removed (bolted through to footwell) the wiper mechanism can be withdrawn without dismantling the linkages.  That is of course having first unfastened the bases to which the wiper arms are attached.  Should these bases simply pull free from above after the nuts are removed - shown in second picture?

As always, any hints and tips will be gratefully received.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: davidwheeler on 10 May, 2018, 08:18:33 PM
They do indeed but then it can be a fearful struggle to extract them.  You may well find it easier to undo the connecting link - it should be quite easy to unclip.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 10 May, 2018, 09:08:08 PM
I have recently removed the wiper mechanism and taken it to pieces, so will take some photos over the weekend. It was a pain to remove and I am wondering how best to put it back now that I have painted under the bonnet.

I may try and rebuild it in situ ....... or maybe not !



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 11 May, 2018, 07:25:32 AM

Simon - need "an apprentice" with small hands and slim arms...? 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 May, 2018, 05:07:39 PM
Iím just looking ahead to when I re-fit the interior trim to my car later this year year.  I have a question regarding the chrome-finish strips near the bottom of each door card.  They are part reference number 49 in TAV.  Firstly, does anybody know how to remove them?  I donít want to risk damaging them but there are no fittings shown in TAV, and there are no fastenings visible on the rear of the door card so it looks like they may be attached to the vinyl rather than to the card behind it.  Secondly, has anybody ever had them re-chromed?  The strip on one side of my car is peeling badly - see picture below - exposing the pinkish coloured (plastic?) sub structure.  On the other door the chrome finish is missing completely.  The re-trimmed door cards that I have bought do not have this chromed strip, and looking at reference pictures in my library it seems like many people omit them when re-trimming.  Just wondering whatís the best approach.    


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 17 May, 2018, 07:32:33 PM
David - just spotted this one !

Too late on this occasion but there is always something to do .... so keep checking Ryanair !

Re wiper mechanism, I have refitted mine and will update the thread with pictures, but I did put it back bit at a time without damaging the new paint.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 27 May, 2018, 11:41:45 AM
My welder has made more progress on the car.  He is now (in my absence) working on the right side.  A section of the front floorpan which was badly corroded has been cut away and a new panel, sourced from David Ashworth, has been welded in place.  A new subframe mount has been fitted - shown in the last picture with a reference plate still tagged in place to ensure correct positioning.  That will now be removed and the inner sill built up before fitting the sill strengthening plate and outer sill.

Simon - thanks for the information on windscreen wiper removal and fitment.

All - any thoughts on door card trim? See my question and photographs above.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Scott on 28 May, 2018, 06:45:32 AM
Re. door cards:
Those chrome strips do indeed seem to have been glued in situ.
If it is a small area that needs patching then you could consider some chrome foil. Search for something like 'chrome detailing foil tape' online. Using a scalpel to cut out either side of the offending area to create a rectangle and then by putting in a replacement rectangle you should be able to affect a good, and near invisible, repair (assuming the tape has the same shininess of course!).

Re. windscreen wipers:
Are everyone's wipers as slow as mine?! I can't believe this is by design but it's how it's always been! I would be interested to hear if the lethargy is general or if I need to exchange/uprate my motor etc. I usually use rain-x if venturing out and the weather is looking iffy but I don't really like this stuff as it leaves a slightly opaque film on the glass so would rather do something about the wipers if I can!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 28 May, 2018, 08:25:37 AM
Just a thought but when I worked for Vauxhall many years ago starting in the early 1960, I seem to remember the chrome strips having clenching teeth that attached them only to the back of the material, there was then a layer of padding between this and the board, the material was then electrically welded to the board, turned over and the edges of the material stapled to the back of the board.
Brian 8)
8227


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: eog on 28 May, 2018, 02:58:59 PM
Re your lower door card chrome trim, just looking at a Lotus Elan (1960/70) front bumper.
The insert bumper to body may do the trick.
Not certain if I can post link but here goes
 https://paulmattysportscars.co.uk/product/elan-front-bumper-trim/


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 29 May, 2018, 07:22:12 AM
Thanks for the responses regarding the door card trim:

Scott - Iíve bought some chrome wrap and will have a go at covering them.  I wonít try patching but rather will cover the entire strip, then judge whether they look good enough to be used or whether I should just omit the strips altogether.

Brian - I was thinking along the same lines about the fastening method.  I might try removing the vinyl cover from one of my old door cards to see whatís visible at the back.

Maurice - thanks for the suggestion. Iíll take a look.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 29 May, 2018, 05:55:12 PM
The Elan part looks like an aluminium extrusion to me so would not be what is needed. Covering in chrome foil sounds the best approach but I would be tempted to strip all the old foil off before recovering. It is rather unforgiving of blemishes in the base material.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 June, 2018, 06:21:40 PM
Thanks for the advice Frank - will take that on board.

Work has continued on the right side of my car.  The old sill has been cut away exposing the considerable rust underneath.  The new driver floor-pan is now in place as is the subframe mounting box, and a new section of metal has been welded in place to replace the section of the floor under the rear portion of the inner sill.  A strengthening plate, same as that installed on the left side of the car, has been welded in place and the new outer sill has been fitted.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 01 June, 2018, 06:24:59 PM
On a small and very pedantic note, your car is being worked on by your "weldor" while you are away. He is using a "welder". Even spell check doesn't recognise "weldor" though.



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 June, 2018, 06:31:27 PM
I mentioned in a previous post that I was concerned that the right rear driver-side wheel arch flare looked incorrect, and that I had bought a new wheel arch (from David Ashworth) to replace it.  Cutting away the old wheel arch revealed about 12mm of lead filler topped by about 7mm of plastic filler - see pictures below. That has all been cut away and the new wheel arch fitted.  The other 3 arches all seem ok.  I'm getting close to final paint prep now.  The only remaining welding tasks are sorting out the rear edges of the doors, and replacing the jacking points.  I'm pleased with progress!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 June, 2018, 06:42:05 PM
On a small and very pedantic note, your car is being worked on by your "weldor" while you are away. He is using a "welder". Even spell check doesn't recognise "weldor" though.

Interesting Frank.  I've never seen the word "weldor".  Wikipedia says: "A welder or lit operator is a tradesperson who specializes in fusing materials together. The term welder refers to the operator, the machine is referred to as the welding power supply".




Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 01 June, 2018, 06:55:02 PM
"Weldor" seems to have fallen out of use but I always remember an admonishment in an old technical book, weldor as in operator. I'll get back in my little box now.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 02 June, 2018, 01:04:10 AM
Norman,
She should be about 5mph faster with that lot removed!
 Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 03 June, 2018, 06:49:45 PM
Norman,
She should be about 5mph faster with that lot removed!
 Brian
8227  8)

And more economical Brian.  As somebody said earlier: Fulvia Superleggera!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: eog on 13 June, 2018, 09:47:37 PM
Sorry to go backwards to door card trim but have just found this
https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/self-adhesive-trims
as I was looking for new trim for lower gear lever centre console trim
 https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/brushed-stainless-effect-plastic-u-edge-trim-12mm-x-5mm-per-metre.
Will let you get on with your work now!
Maurice


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 14 June, 2018, 06:47:01 AM
Sorry to go backwards to door card trim but have just found this
https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/self-adhesive-trims
as I was looking for new trim for lower gear lever centre console trim
 https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/brushed-stainless-effect-plastic-u-edge-trim-12mm-x-5mm-per-metre.
Will let you get on with your work now!
Maurice
Thanks Maurice,
Very interesting.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 14 June, 2018, 06:21:46 PM
Thanks for your response on the door cards Maurice - there are some nice looking trims on that website but none that would match the factory fit item. I have pretty much decided to move forward without the chrome trims.  I tried removing the vinyl cover from the backing board on one of my old door cards to see how the trims were attached but everything seemed to be well glued inside and I don't really want to sacrifice a decent door card in what might prove a hopeless quest!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 14 June, 2018, 06:34:06 PM
Welding work is now almost complete - just a couple of jobs to finish off tomorrow and I'll hopefully then be heading for paint.  A painter on the same industrial development has looked over the car and I'm waiting for a quote from him.  He comes strongly recommended by my Integrale-owning welder who has used his services a number of times.  Jobs completed this week included some small patching to corroded spots on the doors, windscreen surround and lower edge of front valance.  The corroded rear ends of the door tops have been made good - see pictures below.  Finally, four new jacking points have been fabricated from heavy gauge metal strip and have been welded in place behind the new sill flanges.  The fourth picture below shows the outline shape after plasma-cutting and ready for cut-off.   While the welder has been weaving his magic I've continued with the refurbishment of the engine bay.  The driver-side is shown below, with chassis plates temporarily removed.  I should be able to bring the passenger side up to the same level tomorrow.    


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 June, 2018, 06:01:22 PM
Final welding completed this morning: flange under front valance straightened and patched, rear weld flange trimmed, and some other fettling.  Now ready for paint preparation and paint.  Waiting (with baited breath) for quote from paint shop!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 16 June, 2018, 06:27:27 PM
Exciting !

Hope the paint quote doesn't spoil your weekend .....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: jmspear on 17 June, 2018, 08:56:55 PM
Off topic for Lancia, my HF 1600 doesn't need painting, but I will be getting my alfasud sprint painted when I have finished all my welding (a lot of welding as its an alfasud) so am really interested in what your quote looks like (for budgeting purposes) I would really appreciate it if you let me know how much as albeit a different car, the level of work will be very similar. You can pm if you prefer. Many thanks John


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 June, 2018, 09:54:52 PM
I've pm'd you John.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 19 June, 2018, 09:22:20 PM
Another seat option for those hinges Norm?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LANCIA-FULVIA-COUPE-SEATS/273309028611?hash=item3fa27cd103:g:TCoAAOSwWw1a8bke
Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 19 June, 2018, 09:39:45 PM
Thanks Guy - I'll take a look.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 19 June, 2018, 09:42:37 PM
I started cleaning up the window runners and quarter lights today.  Iíve removed the old quarter light seals as I have new ones on order.  I damaged the original ones while drilling out the three bolts that secured the bottom edge of the quarter light frames to the top of the doors.  The bolts had rusted solid both sides and I had to drill down through the small openings in the lower edge of the seals - quite a tricky thing to do and with inevitable damage.  The seals are a bit ropey in other areas so it will be good to fit new ones.   Iíve also ordered replacements for all of the u-channel  seals and scraper seals.

The two rear window glass runners are in poor condition at their bottom ends.  Rust is so bad that the bracket of one has come adrift, and it is not possible on either runner to discern what the actual profile of the end of the runner should be (square, or angled like the other end), and I canít tell how long the runners should be overall. I will make up a couple of short matching u-shaped sections and have them welded in place once I know the dimensions.  If anybody can help with a photograph that shows the profile, and can provide the overall length (see my picture below) Iíd be very grateful.

The other problem I encountered is that one of the long forward runners has been welded at some stage, and shows very poor workmanship with globs of weld.  The build-up is such that the correct channel seal will not fit.  A previous owner had replaced the top half of the length of seal with a non-original much shallower seal that was a very poor fit.  Iíll see how much of the build-up I can grind off while still retaining enough strength.  Iím guessing a replacement part would be hard to find.

Itís good to be working on the refurbishment of my boxes of parts now that welding on the body and closures is complete!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 20 June, 2018, 10:18:55 AM

Am enjoying the archaeology.

Grinding the blobby weld - to my mind that's not something to fret over.  Either you'll be able to grind enough away for a seal to fit, or it falls apart and needs welding again.  Perhaps that job includes cutting a bit out and letting some new metal in.   Perhaps even if able to grind enough away I'd give it a good wiggle to be sure its still strong.

Are you a "keep everything possible" person or looking to "source better bits"?

As an aside here's a recent example of conservation.  Not sure if they bottled the air out the tyres to re-use but I bet they thought about it.

http://www.julianparkerltd.uk/the-1928-fabric-bodied-austin-7/

http://www.julianparkerltd.uk

https://www.facebook.com/JulianParkerLimited/


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 July, 2018, 09:11:24 PM
Some impressive work there in that rebuild David. 

In answer to your question I'm trying to make the right decision at each stage.  I'm keeping parts where I can, but buying new if the existing part is too poor for refurbishment.  My budget was blown long ago!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 July, 2018, 09:17:20 PM
Iíve been continuing with the clean-up of the engine bay. Almost complete now - just the top right surface left to do. See first two pictures.

Refurbishment of my boxes of parts is proceeding quite well. Iíve taken a bunch of stuff back to bare metal and then etch primed: heater box, front bumper brackets, rear window runners, door jamb plates, and bonnet hinge strengtheners. I still have some patching to do to the window runners and one of the door jamb plates then all of this can be painted.

Iím somewhat worried about the painting of the car. I now have a quote and will be discussing it with the paintshop early this week. But reading Simonís comments on his HF thread about colour matching have made me very nervous!  I want to keep the car in its original colour Bianco Saratoga, and Iíve found the following paint codes:
- Max Meyer 1.306.1435
- Lechler 1329
- Glasurit 170 ( which I think is Lanciaís code)

Are there any hints and tips for my discussion with the paint shop?  I know next to nothing about car paint and have heard or read terms such as cellulose, water-based and twin-pack bandied around but I donít know how these relate to current paint technology. With regard to colour matching I was hoping to just be able to quote the colour codes as mentioned above. I donít want the colour to be spectro-matched to the existing colour as the car has been resprayed by a previous owner and I donít know how accurate it is. Sometimes the colour seems to me to have a slight greenish caste to it. I donít know how ďpureĒ a white Bianco Saratoga should be. I didnít get that same impression with other white Fulvias like Timís, or Brianís at last yearís AGM, but then again I donít known if they stayed with original colour.

From that stream of consciousness I guess my key question to other forum members is how do I get closest to original 1973 S2 Coupe Bianco Saratoga color!  Itís a substantial outlay so Iíd like to get it right!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 02 July, 2018, 12:08:36 AM
Norman,
Amazed at the quality you're achieving.
Don't wish to cause my confusion but my Fulvia Tavoli which appears to have been updated to1/1976, shows Bianco Saratoga synthetique codes as
lancia 6980031
Max Meyer 1.346.1435.
With no reference of a application by Glasurit.
Lechler are not even shown as a supplier.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 02 July, 2018, 05:01:56 PM

Thanks Brian - that's interesting!  I have three independent references to Max Meyer 1.306.1435.  Spoke to the paint shop today and they are planning to use two-pack paint, and will get it from Lechler or Glasurit so I guess the discussion around the Max Meyer option is now moot.

I'm still interested in any feedback on paint types.  Can anybody confirm that two-pack is the right type to use?

Also, any comments on Bianco Saratoga?  As I mentioned above, a number of white Fulvias that I've seen appear to be in a "bright" white, rather than the somewhat cream-ish colour that my car is currently finished in.  I bought a small touch-up bottle of Bianco Saratoga a while ago and that appears similar to my cars cream-ish colour.  Does anybody out there have a Series 2 Coupe in original Bianco Saratoga?

Has anybody used a white from a non-Lancia make?

The car was wheeled to the prep-area of the paint shop this morning.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 02 July, 2018, 05:46:28 PM
Norman

My HF was painted Bianco Saratoga 2 pack. I have the left over.... There is no green tinge to it, but it is not pure white. It has a lot of black in it! search on line and you might find a Lechler car paint colour database. that goes back to the 1940's.

If you can get it in one pack which I think Lechler have a recipe for that is closer to the original finish of cellulose, but having said that I am happy with my 2 pack (dont have the code to hand) which has lasted well for last 12 years.

Make sure the body shop takes time to "shape" the car for optimum results...


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 04 July, 2018, 06:33:56 PM
Very exciting stage !

I love the Bianca Saratoga/black combination.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 04 July, 2018, 09:01:33 PM
Thanks for that information Tim.  I've talked a lot with the painter about the process of blending in the new metal and I'm optimistic that he will do a good job.  He's happy for me to stop by the workshop every day so I'll be able to keep a close eye on it.

Yes, Simon, an exciting stage!  My first S2 coupe which I owned in the late 1970s was also Bianco Saratoga - but with blue cloth. That was an amazing combination, but I'm looking forward to doing this one in black.  I have a complete new interior (recovered seats, parcel shelf, door cards, footwell panels and rear trim panels, carpet and off-white headliner.  I've already refurbished the dashboard which I explained in detail in a previous post.  I still have to refurbish the steering wheel and re-line the glove box.

I refitted the bonnet strengthening brackets this morning after de-rusting and painting them.  It's funny how much satisfaction you can get from small details!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 July, 2018, 07:59:34 AM
While the car is in the paint shop I thought I'd take another look at the seat tilt mechanisms.  Only one of the four is in really poor condition so I thought I'd try to disassemble it so that I could take the parts to a metal finisher to see what re-chroming would cost. At the same time I'm continuing the search for a replacement in better condition.

I managed to remove the spring quite easily but the two main portions do not easily come apart.  A chap from Slovenia sent me some pictures of his re-chromed components but he can't recall how (10 years ago) he took the two components apart - other than that he had to do some grinding on the arrowed part B in the attached picture. I can see how metal could be ground off but I don't know how I would refit them.  Has anybody out there done this?

While scratching my head about this I took a few minutes off to fit a Fulvia vinyl banner to the garage wall.  Bought it quite cheaply on Ebay.  The company that provided it now also sells a version with a cutaway Fulvia picture.   Also thought you might like to see my "Aurelia" inspirational nitrile gloves!

   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: stanley sweet on 13 July, 2018, 10:15:17 AM
I've seen those signs on ebay. Looks to be good quality - might be tempted. Depending on how wide your garage is you might want to stick some kind of pads on the wall to protect your doors when you open them. Be a shame to scrape the edge by accident after all this work. My garage is quite narrow and very easy to hit the door edges but I've always had a big piece of polystyrene taped to the wall which has prevented any damage. I recently installed my highly sophisticated 'tennis ball on a string' parking aid. As long as the ball slides along the passenger windows I'm at the perfect distance. With the big tumblehome on a Fulvia, no passenger mirror plus the extra width of the wheelarch extensions I have I always found it a bit nervewracking. Your Fulvia looks like it will be a little gem when it's all back together.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 28 July, 2018, 10:58:44 AM
That's good advice Stanley.  I have some thick black foam floor tiles that I'll cut into strips and mount on the wall.

I've been refurbishing the engine bay components (air box, heater air intake, radiator) and having a look to see how sound the welded brackets are on the back of my bumpers.  I've got two front bumpers but neither has the bolt-on side brackets - see 31 and 32 on the Tav diagram below.  Does anybody know the dimensions for these by any chance?




Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: D5177_55A on 28 July, 2018, 03:09:32 PM
Hope this helps. I think its part 32 (nearside). The larger, almost square hole would need more space (in the hole) for bumper levelling purposes.



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 28 July, 2018, 05:34:51 PM
Brilliant.  Thank you so much for those dimensions!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 30 July, 2018, 06:13:00 PM
Some progress in the paint shop.  Very thin layers of filler are being used to smooth the transition from new metal to old, and "shape" the car where necessary. Getting closer to paint!

In the meantime I'm working my way through the boxes of components in the garage and refurbishing them.  The heater air inlet and the carburettor inbox and filter holder have been cleaned and de-rusted and will be painted satin black.  I've just got the radiator and fuel tank out of the garage loft to start work on them next. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 30 July, 2018, 11:19:46 PM
Hi Norman,
Looking good.
Why satin for the air cleaner?
My air cleaner was nearer gloss.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 31 July, 2018, 06:25:03 AM
Hi Norman,
Looking good.
Why satin for the air cleaner?
My air cleaner was nearer gloss.
Brian
8227  8)
Thatís interesting Brian. I looked at lots of engine bay pictures on google and saw satin/matt finishes and gloss. I tried to figure out whether the gloss finishes were the result of people refurbishing with gloss paint. Or were the satin/matt examples just the result of gloss fading over the years. I assumed (maybe wrongly)  the former. The question applies to the radiator top, carb inlet assembly and heater air inlet box. Itís on my long list of research questions for the AGM car park this weekend when I hope to be able to look closely at a number of Fulvias. Other ďoriginalityĒ questions on my list relate to engine bay decals and plates, carpets/mats, screw/bolt types and boot interior fittings.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: chriswgawne on 31 July, 2018, 09:13:20 AM
I believe the under bonnet black Fulvia components were gloss originally. Certainly my new1973 Fulvia 3  Coupe was as was Jackys very original Fulvia 2C we ran in the mid 70's whereas Aurelia B20s for example were largely satin black including the engine bay itself.
Chris


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 August, 2018, 06:30:59 PM

Some more progress on engine bay components today.  All of the black painted parts have now been cleaned and de-rusted.  I tried a couple of blacks to get close to the factory finish and found that Hammerite smooth black gives a finish somewhere between satin and gloss - perhaps a bit closer to gloss - which appears to be close to the correct finish.  The carburettor air inlet box and heater box are shown in my Heath-Robinson spray booth (plastic sheet suspended from ladders). Iím quite pleased with the way they are looking.

While the paint was drying I made a start on the radiator, which had a lot of surface rust and had been badly painted with thick black paint showing lots of brush marks.  Once I finish stripping the old paint off Iíll look for a radiator specialist to give it a pressure test before I paint it to match.

It was hugely valuable to be able to crawl over some of the S2s and S3s at the AGM at the weekend.   Thanks especially to Neil Simms, David Townsend and Geoff Johnson and their partners who allowed me to inspect their cars very closely and take a lot of reference photographs.  The other wonderful cars attending the event gave me inspiration in bucket loads!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 08 August, 2018, 09:45:16 PM
I use a lot of black smooth hammarite for such things and it seems to last very well.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 09 August, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Certainly looks good Norman.
Great chatting to you Sunday.
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 09 August, 2018, 06:54:19 PM

I enjoyed talking to you too Brian, and it's always good to see how Fay is doing!

I made good progress in the garage today.  Finished cleaning up and de-rusting the radiator and will be taking it to a specialist tomorrow to see if I can get it pressure tested.

I cleaned and de-rusted one of the window regulators - see picture below showing it beside the other one which I'll do tomorrow. One of my window winders is missing the black disc.  I might try to make something to fit - unless someone has one lying around that they'd like to sell.

I have an update on the front window glass runner that I mentioned earlier in the thread.  It had been badly welded and the brightwork on the quarter light surround was badly marked.  I managed to buy a used driver-side door (with most components still attached) fairly cheaply on Ebay and picked it up in London after the AGM event finished on Sunday, en-route to collecting my wife from my daughter's place in Bow Quarter.  The rear runner was in even worse condition than my own, but thankfully the front runner with quarter-light attached was in a good state.

I drove home on Monday via Omicron where I collected some parts for the car including repro door caps and a new pair of rubber seals for the quarter lights.  Now that I have the latter I'll start on cleaning and de-rusting the front runner assemblies next.     


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 09 August, 2018, 10:39:17 PM
Norman,
if you don't have any luck finding a black disc I can probably sort you one out, although it probably would have been off a Vauxhall!
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 10 August, 2018, 06:58:51 PM
Norman,
if you don't have any luck finding a black disc I can probably sort you one out, although it probably would have been off a Vauxhall!
Brian
8227 8)

Thanks Brian - I may well take you up on that offer.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 10 August, 2018, 07:02:28 PM

I took my cleaned-up radiator to a specialist today for pressure test and possibly a new core, and I stopped by the paint shop to see progress on the shaping of the transition between new metal and old prior to painting. Very pleased with progress so far.  A few pictures below.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: davidwheeler on 11 August, 2018, 06:03:51 PM
I suspect you wil come back with a new core and for the £100 or so it costs it is well worth it.   The old one is almost certainly clogged after nearly 50 years.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 August, 2018, 11:54:19 AM
I've been working on the front window runners, that have the quarter light frame attached. The left one is original from my car and the right one is from a door I bought on Ebay.  They've cleaned up well, but the curvatures are quite different.  The right one is the more curved so I compared it with the one I removed from my car (the one with the large blobs of welds that I talked about in an earlier post) and it has similar curvature. So the problem is not because I'm using a part from a different car.

I don't know how much I should be worried about the difference! I've attached some pictures showing the extent of the difference as measured at the bottom end and in the middle.  Does anybody have any examples they could measure in order to tell me which is correct?  

I also made a start on cleaning up the door top external trim strip in readiness to fit new scraper seal. I naively thought that would be an easy job. However the old scraper is stapled on and quite fiddly to remove.  As soon as I started to pull a section away on the first door it pretty well disintegrated.  The final picture shows the one from the other door at the bottom of the picture - ostensibly looking to be in reasonable condition!  The first one looked like that before I started the removal process.  Interesting what you find.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 August, 2018, 08:06:08 PM

Getting there!  Hopefully will be in primer next week.
I'm still puzzled by the curvature differences on the window glass front runners - see previous comments.  Would be glad of any pointers.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 16 August, 2018, 09:41:05 PM
Any chance series 1& 2 are different?
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: davidwheeler on 18 August, 2018, 09:10:46 AM
I suspect past brutality rather than any intrinsic difference.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 18 August, 2018, 02:16:55 PM

Is there a facility to adjust the quarter light top in and out by moving the bottom? 

THE lesson here is to get it to fit first, then work on the finish...  I wonder how many have spent a fortune on chrome for bits that then don't fit?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 August, 2018, 04:50:00 PM

Is there a facility to adjust the quarter light top in and out by moving the bottom? 

THE lesson here is to get it to fit first, then work on the finish...  I wonder how many have spent a fortune on chrome for bits that then don't fit?

There are two fixings, both to the inner skin of the door.  The top one is very close to the top edge of the door where the quarterlight base is attached with three machine screws, so little or no opportunity for adjustment there.  The bottom fixing could be shimmed with washers, but only in a direction that would pull the top of the quarterlight in (which might make sense on the passenger side if that's where the problem is).  The only way to pivot the top outwards (to address the driver side where greater curvature exists, assuming that is where the problem is) would be to modify the lower fixing bracket that is welded onto the runner channel. I wouldn't want to mess with the bracket.  I guess I'll have to trial fit the runners when I get the car back from the paint shop and see how they it close.  It's just very frustrating to have no idea how great the curvatures should be!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 20 August, 2018, 08:02:46 PM
Norman, I have found a spare window winder knob, with the black disk still fitted, it has parted company from the handle, a small split on side, you are welcome to have it.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 20 August, 2018, 08:53:31 PM
Norman, I have found a spare window winder knob, with the black disk still fitted, it has parted company from the handle, a small split on side, you are welcome to have it.
Thanks Neill  I've pm'd you.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 23 August, 2018, 07:42:57 PM
That door that I bought on Ebay has proved to be quite a bonanza.  If you've been following this thread you'll know that I only bought the door to get the front window runner and quarter light assembly.  That component proved to be in very good condition and alone was worth what I paid for the door.  I've stripped all of the other parts off the door yielding a stainless steel front cap, an internal door handle and door lock, and window regulator mechanism, all in good condition.  There was  also a door stay and plate that will plug another gap in my part inventory as my car came with only one fitted.  In addition, the rear window runner has come in very handy.  The top and bottom ends were badly corroded but I've been able to use the centre portion to provide a couple of repair sections that can now be welded onto my own two rear runners - both of which were badly corroded at their lower ends - see first picture below.  Other parts from my doors are cleaning up nicely thanks to a lot of elbow grease.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 October, 2018, 09:08:10 PM
Back home after six weeks away so working on the car again.  The paint shop has waited for me to return so that I could inspect the final shaping before the car gets primed.  It is up on a ramp at the moment so I can work on the underfloor for the next few days.  The radiator is back from the specialist and the examination and pressure test revealed that it is in very good shape and not in need of a recore.  I think it may have been replaced by a previous owner.  The specialist painted it for me so it now looks like a new one!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 21 October, 2018, 09:50:06 PM
The paint shop has completed all shaping and smoothing of the new metal and dressed all imperfections. The joins between old and new metal have all been Tiger-sealed.  While the car has been up on the hoist I have removed all surface rust from the underside and have treated the few areas of discolouration that remained with Jennolite rust converter.  I've been very fortunate that the paint shop has allowed me to work on the car while in their workshop. They've undersealed the underside of the car and the wheel arches with U-Pol under seal, and the car is now ready for its first coat of primer.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 23 October, 2018, 06:51:35 PM

First primer was applied to the car today - just to the areas that have been worked on in the welding shop. Residual white paint areas have been flatted.  Imperfections will be sorted out next and the car will then go into the spray booth for a full primer coat. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 23 October, 2018, 07:26:17 PM
Looking good Norm!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 23 October, 2018, 07:54:48 PM
Great progress Norm, won`t be long, keep at it.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: D5177_55A on 24 October, 2018, 03:52:50 PM
Nice job; especially that underside.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 24 October, 2018, 04:45:59 PM
Nearly there !!

It easy to forget how long the journey is - remind yourself what it was like when you first started ....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 28 October, 2018, 08:39:15 PM
In anticipation of getting the car back and starting the assembly process Iím now looking at the electrical parts.  Iím starting from a zero knowledge base on auto electrics - so will be looking for advice!   The rear lights are in quite good condition - see first picture.  

In order to get them ready for re-fitting I assume that the appropriate steps are:
- Clean (fine emory paper) all bulb holders
- Replace all bulbs Ö. where do I find the bulb specifications?
- Examine wires for breaks in insulation
- Clean all spade terminals (again, fine emory paper)
Does this make sense and is there anything else I should be doing?

Iím also interested in any hints/tips on the beige bases (TAV 5) where I have two problems:

1) Some of the threaded bosses that receive the machine screws (three out of eight) that hold the outer lens are missing.
These are moulded into the plastic. The second picture, left side, shows an example of where one is missing.
Any suggestions as to how to repair?  I can think of three possible solutions:
    A - Find a source of the bosses and glue/Araldite them in position.  I suspect they are not available!
    B - Pass the existing machine screw through the hole and fasten with a nut
    C - Fill the hole with a hard setting putty (see third picture) and drill to receive a regular screw rather than a machine screw
I'm going to have to use option C for the hole where the plastic has broken away around it!

2) Some of the posts (three out of six)  that are used to fasten the beige bases (TAV 5) to the rear panel of the car are missing.
These are moulded into the plastic with the threaded post projecting from the rear. The second picture, right side, shows an example of where one is missing.
Again, any suggestions as to how repair would be appreciated.  In this case I can think of two possible solutions:
    A - Find a source of the posts and glue/Araldite them in position.  Again, I suspect they are not available!
    B - Fill the hole with a hard setting putty into which a machine screw head has been inserted.

I assume these are quite common problems!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 28 October, 2018, 09:20:03 PM
Hi Norman,
For bulb specs see the handbook.
Don't forget to use petroleum jelly on all clean earth points.
Brian
8227
 8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 29 October, 2018, 07:17:00 AM
With all the hard work on the bodywork I would suggest the rear lights some how have to have the correct solution of correct screws and therefore correct mounting threads. You can make a good set out of several broken sets...


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 29 October, 2018, 06:23:32 PM
To be honest I would seek out a better pair of the beige base units. There must be ones about that aren't bust up. Failing that I would go for chemical metal because you can drill and tap it to take the machine screws.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 29 October, 2018, 09:06:37 PM
To be honest I would seek out a better pair of the beige base units. There must be ones about that aren't bust up. Failing that I would go for chemical metal because you can drill and tap it to take the machine screws.

I know what you mean Frank but I've been looking for alternatives for a while.  Really good condition ones are around £300 per pair, which I'm reluctant to shell out as my lenses are so good.  I've seen cheaper ones but the beige base units have been really no better than mine!   People often sell the lenses alone, but I've not seen the beige units for sale on their own.  I suspect that's because they tend to be damaged much like my own. I'll keep looking but in the meantime I think I'll repair mine using the metal epoxy putty. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 29 October, 2018, 10:40:51 PM
I can think of three possible solutions:
    A - Find a source of the bosses and glue/Araldite them in position.  I suspect they are not available!
    B - Pass the existing machine screw through the hole and fasten with a nut
    C - Fill the hole with a hard setting putty (see third picture) and drill to receive a regular screw rather than a machine screw

---------------

I've no idea what the "boss" looks like...but could you use a nut glued in instead of a boss?  Could you cut the correct thread into a short length of tube and set that? 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 November, 2018, 07:05:27 PM

Well, a big milestone reached today as the body shell was painted in original Bianco Saratoga. The doors, boot lid, bonnet, fuel flap and door jamb shut plates will be painted tomorrow.  Here's a few pictures, plus a couple of montages as a reminder of some of the earlier work to get this far!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 14 November, 2018, 05:10:52 PM

"I've no idea what the "boss" looks like...but could you use a nut glued in instead of a boss?  Could you cut the correct thread into a short length of tube and set that?"

Thanks David, boss was my term for a threaded metal collar.   Yes. I plan to do something along the lines you describe. I'll post the outcome.   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 19 November, 2018, 08:50:59 PM
Hi Norm, I would use Riv Nuts of the correct thread size ( M4 or M5 maybe?) and glue those in place. They are available on Amazon for example. You might need to modify the backing plate but I think that would work.

John


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 20 November, 2018, 12:46:32 PM
Rivnuts - excellent idea! If you're not sure Norm just drop round to my place in Bootle, I've got a large variety of these and the setting tool although I'd recommend gluing them in the plastic bodies rather than crushing them as that's damage the plastic more!
Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 20 November, 2018, 03:39:57 PM
Brilliant. Thanks for the suggestion John. Iíd never heard of rivnuts so just looked them up on Google. The cylindrical steel ones look just like what is set into the backing plates.

Guy, thanks for the offer. Iíll call you when back in UK early December to see when would be a good time to pop round.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 06 December, 2018, 04:50:29 PM
I've just arrived back in the UK and saw my freshly painted Fulvia for the first time today (in the metal, as opposed to in the photographs sent by the paint shop).  I'm absolutely delighted with the quality of the finish. Next step will be to get the car transported home, so hoping for a few days without rain! 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: IanC on 06 December, 2018, 04:58:34 PM
Thatís lovely!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: stanley sweet on 06 December, 2018, 05:48:47 PM
Looks great. That's a very nice shade of white, like Tim Heath's. Not a fridge white.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 06 December, 2018, 06:11:38 PM
Looks great. That's a very nice shade of white, like Tim Heath's. Not a fridge white.

It's Bianco Saratoga Stanley, same colour as Tim's, and was the original factory colour for my car. Much nicer than some of the washing machine whites you see.... or fridge white as you call it!
 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 06 December, 2018, 06:59:26 PM
Probably my favourite Fulvia colour


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 28 December, 2018, 10:22:06 PM

Iím missing the rubber seals from the leading edge of the bonnet and am looking around to see if anybody stocks them.   

While checking the TAV, I noticed that there are seal strips shown at the side of the bonnet. They are TAV code 56 and are described as ďcopribordo per cofanoĒ (literally: edge covering), or ďmouldingĒ in the English language column.  Iím puzzled by these as I donít recall ever seeing anything like them on a Fulvia  with the exception of a single photograph of a Sport that had rubber seals over the two engine bay side edges.   Iíve scoured all of the engine bay pictures in my files but canít see anything like these on a Coupe.  Can anybody shed any light on what they are and where they fit?

Similarly, the boot page in the TAV shows something similar: TAV code 55, listed as ďcapribordo p.sportello bauleĒ, and in the English column ďtrimĒ.  Again, does anybody know where these fit? 

Now that the car is home after having been away at the welder and paint shop for the last 12 months I couldnít resist fitting the bonnet badge.  I guess this should be the last reassembly job but I needed some instant gratification!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: stanley sweet on 28 December, 2018, 11:55:29 PM
I've never seen these on a coupe either. If they were fitted, I wonder why they would all disappear? If you like the idea I would think any thin u-channel rubber would work from a trimmers (like Woollies etc). Good to see the badge fitted. Now you can solve a mystery for me - how are they held on? The leading edge of the bonnet is a box section and I've never been able to work out how you access the pins of the badge?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 29 December, 2018, 06:35:38 PM

With regard to the bonnet badge I can only speak for the Series 2.  There are 2 locating pins on the rear of the badge which are not threaded. They pass through two holes in the bonnet which are visible from beneath.  I assume adhesive is applied to the rear of the badge.  I've just loose-fitted mine for the moment so it's being held there by gravity!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 29 December, 2018, 06:44:55 PM
No adhesive. Use something like these badge fastners....

http://www.tri-corengland.com/acatalog/82-4317-Spire-Nut-82_4317.html#SID=34


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 29 December, 2018, 07:28:53 PM
Might I suggest you look at Vauxhall badge fixings from that period, until a lot later date than that, we used tiny hollow plastic inserts that the fixing pins slotted into and in the process expanded the insert that then firmly held the badge in place.
I suspect that Lancia/Fiat used something similar.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 29 December, 2018, 09:16:24 PM
Brian, that sounds very like Y10 tailgate badge fasteners.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: the.cern on 29 December, 2018, 09:32:10 PM
I think I would be inclined to go with Tim's suggestion. I think those fixings are also known as star washers!!

Good luck!!

               Andy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: stanley sweet on 29 December, 2018, 10:24:15 PM
Hmm. Must check again. I was sure when I look under my bonnet there's no access at all to the back of the badge.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 30 December, 2018, 12:00:18 AM
Hmm. Must check again. I was sure when I look under my bonnet there's no access at all to the back of the badge.
Stan, they were blind and put it from the topside with a slight shoulder, so no access required from behind.
If I've still got one in my old tool box I'll post a photo.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 30 December, 2018, 09:41:34 AM
I know my S2 bonnet had the hole in the under skin to fit the top fixing as per Norm's photo.... This gives access to push on star lock (correct name...) washer

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8mm-x-18mm-Internal-Tooth-Starlock-Star-Lock-Locking-Washers-10PCS-/302151316498   (check size although by definition these washers can be persuaded to fit similar post diameters)

Brian there was no plastic insert here. Fulvia badges used the star lock for the rear badges as well. I think those plastic ones came later with Delta????


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 30 December, 2018, 07:19:09 PM
The star lock washer does sound more appropriate to period. They can be pushed on with a suitably sized socket and extension bar.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 30 December, 2018, 10:32:10 PM
I know my S2 bonnet had the hole in the under skin to fit the top fixing as per Norm's photo.... This gives access to push on star lock (correct name...) washer

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8mm-x-18mm-Internal-Tooth-Starlock-Star-Lock-Locking-Washers-10PCS-/302151316498   (check size although by definition these washers can be persuaded to fit similar post diameters)

Brian there was no plastic insert here. Fulvia badges used the star lock for the rear badges as well. I think those plastic ones came later with Delta????
I thought originally the thought was there was no access from the underside of the bonnet, hence my suggestion of a blind fixing, if using star washer I'd be inclined to use some sort of sealant to stop the wet seeping in from under the emblem, assuming there's no gasket.
Brian
8227 8) 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: stanley sweet on 31 December, 2018, 09:50:45 AM
Brian, I think I caused the confusion by saying there wasn't any access to the badge under the bonnet. That was my memory playing tricks. Just had a look. The front leg is hidden by the bonnet frame but the leg nearer the windscreen does protrude through the butterfly shaped piece of metal in Norman's photo. What has puzzled me though is that on mine there isn't anything securing that leg. It's fixed solidly though. Could be someone put some silicone behind it although the badge is absolutely flush to the surface of the bonnet.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 31 December, 2018, 01:10:30 PM
My bonnet was an aluminium bonnet but without the 4 mounting holes for the S1 SS trim. I might have drilled through the top hole and increased that hole from the underside (cant remember as it was over a decade ago....). I definitely used star lock washers though... and no sealant (as it was ali.....).


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: stanley sweet on 31 December, 2018, 02:10:43 PM
My one is aluminium. I think my badge is held on by forces not yet discovered by Mankind.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 02 January, 2019, 10:25:21 PM
Thank you all for your comments and suggestions about the bonnet badge.  Mine is quite a tight fit so I think I'll use a dab of clear silicon on each hole/post to stop water ingress, and add the clips that Tim has suggested.

The main purpose of my original post on this topic was to ask about the seals at either side of the bonnet and boot. I'm trying to keep my car as original as possible but am puzzled as to why nobody seems to have these strips on their car.  Is it possible that they were present on early Series 1 cars and then deleted?   Stanley suggested narrow U-section rubber if I was keen to have them, but I'm trying to determine whether they were normal fitment before I go any further in trying to find an equivalent.   Here's my wording from the earlier post, and a couple of better extracts from the TAV diagrams

----------------------
While checking the TAV, I noticed that there are seal strips shown at the side of the bonnet. They are TAV code 56 and are described as ďcopribordo per cofanoĒ (literally: edge covering), or ďmouldingĒ in the English language column.  Iím puzzled by these as I donít recall ever seeing anything like them on a Fulvia  with the exception of a single photograph of a Sport that had rubber seals over the two engine bay side edges.   Iíve scoured all of the engine bay pictures in my files but canít see anything like these on a Coupe.  Can anybody shed any light on what they are and where they fit?

Similarly, the boot page in the TAV shows something similar: TAV code 55, listed as ďcapribordo p.sportello bauleĒ, and in the English column ďtrimĒ.  Again, does anybody know where these fit?  
-----------------------

Finally, does anybody have the two rubber seals from the leading edge of the bonnet that they'd like to sell - TAV item 19, and associated retaining strip 30?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 03 January, 2019, 08:27:43 PM
Hi Norm
Sorry to hijack your thread but how come you have descriptions of the parts in your TAV (even though they`re in Italian) The one I got from Omicron, Yellow cover, Fulvia 2nd Series is as much use as a chocolate fireguard! It has no part numbers and no descriptions. The same goes for the Orange repair manual. Nothing concerning 1600HF. Total waste of money! Is there any decent information anywhere?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 03 January, 2019, 10:33:41 PM
Norm has I suspect a full S2 Tavola (parts manual). These come up from time to t8me on ebay, or are on cd  from  viva lancia . Com.... also 1600HF info is available in the Red concise repaire manual. Owning and maintaining a Lancia is great fun if only for the quest for information....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 03 January, 2019, 11:43:54 PM
Hi Norm
Sorry to hijack your thread but how come you have descriptions of the parts in your TAV (even though they`re in Italian) The one I got from Omicron, Yellow cover, Fulvia 2nd Series is as much use as a chocolate fireguard! It has no part numbers and no descriptions. The same goes for the Orange repair manual. Nothing concerning 1600HF. Total waste of money! Is there any decent information anywhere?

Hi John - As Tim suggests I do have a full parts manual and it did indeed come on a CD I bought from Viva Lancia.  If there are any specific pages you need send me a PM and I can send to you.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 04 January, 2019, 06:34:58 PM
Hi Tim and Norm thanks for your kind offers. I will pm you both

John


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 19 January, 2019, 08:19:16 PM

I collected my wheels and I am delighted with them.  I had the old tyres and tubes removed and then I wire brushed and rust-treated (Jennolite) the wells and areas around the valve holes.  Then I took them to the specialist for shot blasting and powder coat.  They now look like new wheels!  Next, I'm off to Wrexham on Tuesday for James Parry to fit new inner tubes and Falken tyres and balance them. Those following this post may recall that I sold my Cromodoras when I decided to keep my car as close to factory spec as possible.  I'm still happy with that decision.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 March, 2019, 08:26:49 PM
I've been busy decorating so haven't made much progress on the car.  I rolled it out of the garage yesterday on its freshly powder-coated wheels and new tyres.  Its good to have it mobile again even if not under its own steam.  Will hopefully  get back to the reassembly process in a few weeks.  Fitting the new headliner is on the critical path so I need to do some research on that.  If anybody has hints and tips or can point to any useful reference material I would appreciate it!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 June, 2019, 08:54:08 PM

Back in the UK and working on the car.

A question for you all:  I think I read somewhere that it's a good idea to put a protective coating of some sort on brightwork.  I've got these chrome-on-plastic grilles and badge, and I also have the metal bonnet badge and rectangular rear "LANCIA" and "FULVIA" badges.  Any suggestions as to what to use? 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 18 June, 2019, 05:26:20 AM
Autoglym Resin polish has maintained mine for the last 13 years....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 18 June, 2019, 07:16:52 AM
Autoglym is my fav as well

For bare metal (steel, alloy etc) I use Eastwood Diamond coat (?) an acrylic spray


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 June, 2019, 05:48:33 PM
Autoglym Resin polish has maintained mine for the last 13 years....

Tim, do you use it on all brightwork: chrome-on-plastic and metal (such as badges and stainless steel trim)?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 18 June, 2019, 08:24:07 PM
Autoglym Resin polish has maintained mine for the last 13 years....

Tim, do you use it on all brightwork: chrome-on-plastic and metal (such as badges and stainless steel trim)?
everything paint included!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 21 June, 2019, 07:47:05 PM

While waiting for materials to arrive for the headliner install I thought I'd make working in the engine bay and boot a bit easier by fitting the bonnet prop and boot stay mechanism.  The parts cleaned up well, and I also de-rusted and painted the handbrake lever support plate. Nice to be working on the car again after so long away!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: stanley sweet on 22 June, 2019, 06:56:30 AM
Always love to see how many individual parts Lancia could fit into a simple piece like a boot stay. To think this is probably the type of job a young engineer would be given as he gained experience. Today it would be a bought in gas strut. Looks very good Norman. You'll be scared to take it out when it's finished.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 29 June, 2019, 06:39:05 PM

I Tiger-sealed the seams in the boot yesterday and painted the boot interior with smooth black Hammerite today.  Iíve been refurbishing the headlamps and rear lights.  The headlamp outer bowls were quite rusty around the edges so Iíve de-rusted them and applied black Hammerite.  Iíve bought new stainless machine screws for retaining the glass units and have cleaned up the stainless steel cowls with Autoglym Metal Polish and the rubber seals with Autoglym Vinyl and Rubber Care - both are excellent products that Iíve been introduced to by other Forum participants. 

Iíve been using epoxy putty to repair the rear lights (more on that in a later post) but while I had the putty out I had a go at repairing one of my horn units which had been damaged. I repaired it in two stages.  Firstly I moulded putty into the gap covering about half the missing area.  Before it was fully set I shaved the surface down with a sharp blade.  I was perhaps too forceful with this as the shaped piece came away.  I replaced it using Araldite to secure it.  Then a day later I moulded putty into the rest of the gap and again shaved it to shape with a sharp blade.  When fully set Iíll sand it and paint the horn in an appropriate black paint.

Iím waiting for the headliner materials to arrive as thatís my highest priority.  While waiting Iíll continue working on the lights. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 06 July, 2019, 06:30:31 PM

Iíve finished working on the rear lights.  The first picture below shows where a section had broken away on the left side base unit.  I asked on the forum a while back for advice on this and was advised to look for replacement units rather than attempt repair. 

I have looked for replacements but to no avail.  I can find full light assemblies but my lenses are good so it would have been an extravagant approach, so I decided to attempt repair.   I guess there are no bases because they are the things that break first!

The second picture shows the base after repair.  The process was:
- built up the screw mounting pillar and missing base section in three stages with metal putty
- strengthened the repair with Araldite
- inserted a threaded Rivnut into the putty (while still soft) to take the retaining screw
- attached the lens to the base unit while the putty was setting to ensure correct alignment
- finally added a touch of beige enamel paint

I also set Rivnuts with Araldite into the other two places where the aluminium threaded sleeves had come away, and to strengthen them I wrapped a small circle of metal putty under each one.
 
Finally, for mounting the bulb holders to the car I Araldited in some hex headed machine screws where three of the six original embedded screws had come away. You can see one of these on the right hand base unit in the second picture. 

Many thanks to John Whyatt for suggesting Rivnuts, and to Guy Mayers for giving me a batch to use.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 06 July, 2019, 09:52:21 PM

Love it. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 July, 2019, 07:06:01 PM
Over the last few days I've fitted the freshly repaired rear lights and done some finishing off work in the boot,  Cleaned and fitted the rubber seal around the top edge, fitted the mouldings over the inner wheel arch seams and put the new mat in place.

I then applied two coats of smooth black Hammerite to the entire inside floor of the car and the footwells and bulkheads.

I cleaned up the horns following the damage repair to one and gave them both a coat of paint.  A lot of other parts have been cleaned ready for re-fitment. There have been plenty of bolts that have been stuck and needed to be drilled out, and missing hardware that Iíve had to source.  It seems like wherever there should be, say, four bolts, there are only three, or one thatís to the wrong spec!

Iím now working on tidying up the engine bay ready for re-fitting the chassis plates and applying new stickers for battery warning and oil information.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: jimbo64 on 12 July, 2019, 09:11:21 PM
Hi norm Iím following close  behind wonder if you could help Iím missing the headlining hoops or bars not sure what  they are called any idea where I could get them
Cheers Jim



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 July, 2019, 10:52:11 PM
Hi norm Iím following close  behind wonder if you could help Iím missing the headlining hoops or bars not sure what  they are called any idea where I could get them
Cheers Jim


Hi Jim - I've never seen the hoops for sale.  Somebody breaking a car may well have them.  I know of a couple of people who you could contact.  If you pm me I'll share the contact details.  A good strategy is to look at people listing multiple second-hand Fulvia parts on Ebay and contact them via the "contact seller" feature to see if they have them.  Other than that I'd be happy to provide precise dimensions and you could try to have some made up.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 13 July, 2019, 09:58:18 AM
Hi norm Iím following close  behind wonder if you could help Iím missing the headlining hoops or bars not sure what  they are called any idea where I could get them
Cheers Jim


Try Google for list rods for headlining.
Brian
8227   8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 13 July, 2019, 12:01:04 PM
Hi Jim, I may have a set but can't look for a couple of days, let us know if you get sorted beforehand

ps Norm, car looking great !


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Parisien on 13 July, 2019, 12:55:02 PM
Norman, you have an email, hope it helps

P


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 July, 2019, 01:56:28 PM
Thanks Frank. Iíll forward the e-mail to Jim. Iím sure heíll be pleased.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: chriswgawne on 13 July, 2019, 02:59:10 PM
Cars looking great Norman.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: jimbo64 on 13 July, 2019, 03:54:13 PM
Thanks Frank. Iíll forward the e-mail to Jim. Iím sure heíll be pleased.
Thank you norm and frank email sent so problem solved , love the power of the forum
Regards Jim


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 August, 2019, 06:04:33 PM

A few more small jobs done today.  Chassis plate and BS plate riveted back in place, and new stickers for lubrication and battery information applied. I put the headlamps back together with new Osram bulbs and tested all of the wiring before fitting them to the car. I've been putting off working on the headliner but it has to be done next as it's on the critical path for so many other jobs.  I'll make a start on it when i get back from France at the end of next week!  One question for you all:  every time I fit something to the car (like the 3 screws that hold each headlamp in place) I wonder how soon before corrosion might appear where there's metal to metal contact and the likelihood that paint will be scraped off leaving bare metal.  Is there anything I should be putting on the screws and bolt threads to help protect against this?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: rogerelias on 13 August, 2019, 08:21:03 PM
Looking really good Norm


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 14 August, 2019, 10:00:35 AM
Love the detail


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: davidwheeler on 17 August, 2019, 09:01:15 AM
How about silicone gasket from a tube on the screws?     Should seal them against rust.   My headlamps were attatched via spire nuts anyway.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 25 August, 2019, 05:56:00 PM
Thanks for the tip David.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 25 August, 2019, 05:58:49 PM

I made a start on the headliner yesterday.  Iíve pulled together all of the materials needed for the job.  I have a pack of Noico sound deadening material, ten new plastic receptacles for the ends of the rods, six boxes of fold-back clips to hold the headliner around the edges before I stick it in place (about £8 on Ebay), and a tin of Alpha AF178 brushable contact adhesive.   The fold-back clips looked very useful in a YouTube clip that Brian Hilton kindly pointed out to me.

The rods and three retaining brackets  (two front, one rear) have been de-rusted and painted. Iíve had the headliner for some time now, although it came with a main section and separate pieces to use for the A and C pillar covers - rather than as a single unit with the pillar covers attached like the one I removed from the car.  There was also a piece of material for the narrow strip between the rear window and the parcel shelf.

The first step was to clean the roof, then apply the Noico butyl sound deadening mat.  The mat has adhesive on one side with a peel-off protective backing.  The other side has a quilt like appearance to aid application.  The mat is rolled in place with a roller until the quilt marks disappear.   Unfortunately my roller broke part way through this so Iíll need to get another in order to finish the task.  I put one large sheet of the Noico pad in the centre of the roof, and then filled in the gaps around it with smaller pieces.  All relatively straightforward except is was hard to eliminate air bubbles upon initial application so I resorted to making small incisions in any air bubbles with a knife to let the air escape.  Iíve bought a sheet of the felt-like pad to glue on top of the Noico but Iím not yet sure thereís enough room for it.

Next step was to push fit the plastic receptacles in the ten holes around the roof perimeter - five on each side of the car.  I then decided on a trial fitting of the five rods, partly to make sure which lengths fitted where.  When I originally removed the five rods I thought they were all the same length.  I should have checked more carefully as I found out subsequently that there are three of one length and two which are slightly longer.  It would seem that the longer ones fit at front and rear.  The rods were actually tricky to trial-fit.  With the arcs pointing downwards the rods are slightly narrower than the gap between the corresponding pair of receptacles.  Only when rotating them do the rods flatten against the roof of car and stretch in length so that they fit in the receptacles both sides. 

The two end rods are hardest to put in place but easiest to keep in place once positioned thanks to the retaining brackets.   Given that the next time I fit the rods theyíll actually be in the pockets on the top of the headliner I wanted to be sure to know whether to start at the rear or the front of the car.  It transpired that the rearmost rod could only be rotated from the rear of the car forward ( in a clockwise direction if you imagine looking at the side of the car with the rear of the car at the left), and it would not be possible to do that once the central three rods were in position.  The front rod could be rotated in the same direction (clockwise) so it would therefore be possible to fit that rod last.

The next step is to prepare the new headliner.  I made paper templates in the outline of the A and C pillar covers, stretching the old fabric out as much as possible, tricky as it was fairly stiff with age and glue, remembering to allow for the hem at the top of each where they will be stitched to the main headliner section.  Iím somewhat nervous about cutting the angled corners of the main headliner section  in readiness for attaching the A and C pillar covers.  Iíll take some careful measurements of the inside of the car roof and compare them to the dimensions of the old headliner to see if the old headliner has shrunk at all and if any adjustments need to be made.

Iíll need to find some foam to pad out the pillars as the foam that I removed is in poor condition..


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 25 August, 2019, 06:21:48 PM
Looking real good Norman, and with your attention to detail, I think it will be well worth all your efforts to make sure everything fits, and that you know how it goes together.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 25 August, 2019, 09:00:19 PM

Its a job where all those words really were necessary to describe it.  A tricky thing to do... 

I particularly liked the photo with just the rods in place.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 26 August, 2019, 09:38:24 PM
Good progress today.  I prepared the new headliner by cutting the stitched rod pockets at their sides leaving an approximately 94 centimetre central portion uncut.  This was to allow the headliner to be pulled down at the sides to meet the top of the door openings.  I then slid the five rods into the pockets, longest rods at the ends, and then started the installation by putting the rearmost rod into its sockets and rotating it clockwise (as viewed from the side of the car with the rear of the car to the left) until it popped into the notch on the retaining bracket fastened to the top edge of the rear window opening. The second, third and fourth rods were then slotted into their sockets, rotating each until the fabric between each and the preceding one was taut.  Finally, the fifth rod was slotted into position and rotated clockwise until it notched into the indentations in the two retaining brackets screwed into the top of the windscreen opening.

Starting with the central portion of the passenger side of the car I started pulling the fabric taut and fastening fold-back clips to hold it in place, working from the centre outwards.  After about 80% of the side was clipped in place I started on the front of the car, at the centre of the windscreen opening, pulling the fabric taut and clipping it in place, then working to the left and right one clip at a time until about 80% of the windscreen width was done.  I repeated the process in a similar manner in the rear window opening, and then along the driver side of the car. All the time I was doing this I was continually removing and adjusting clips as I spotted folds or creases in the fabric.

As I clipped the fabric in place I was careful to spread out the cut sections of the pockets - see sixth photo - so that there was no bunching up of the fabric before clipping it in place.

At this stage I felt through the fabric surface to find the three holes for the attachment of the rear view mirror and made a small paper template to indicate the hole position for the two wires to the interior lamp.  Using the template I marked the headliner and then made a small x-shaped incision to feed the wires through. I then undid the clips on the passenger side of the windscreen opening and fed the interior lamp wires up the A pillar and across the roof, taping them in place at intervals, and feeding them through the hole that Iíd made in the headliner.

On completion of the above I was left with the corners of the headliner to stretch into position.  Thatís tomorrowís job.

One issue that had been vexing me was how to handle the junction between the main headliner panel and the A and C pillar covers.  I considered laying the old headliner on top of the new one to mark the positions for stitching the covers in place.  I decided that this would be difficult to do given the condition of the old headliner, and I figured that it would then require a lot of precision in positioning the stitched assembly.  I decided instead on a compromise: that I would fit the main headliner without stitching the pillar covers.  I would then fold the tops of the pillar covers and iron them flat, and then overlap and glue them on top of the projecting pieces of main headliner fabric.  More on that in subsequent reports.

One final thing; I found that putting a couple of thick cushions on the floor of the car made getting in and out and moving around while installing the headliner much easier - at lease for these old bones!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 26 August, 2019, 11:14:03 PM

Inspiring. 

Interesting just how many clips.



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 27 August, 2019, 05:50:09 AM
Looking good Norman, and very professional as it can't be an easy job working upside down, even with cushions for your knees!
What are your thoughts on injecting steam afterwards, that was used to tighten it up? the factory method at the time to remove any wrinkles and tighten everything up.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 27 August, 2019, 07:49:00 AM
Looking good Norman, and very professional as it can't be an easy job working upside down, even with cushions for your knees!
What are your thoughts on injecting steam afterwards, that was used to tighten it up? the factory method at the time to remove any wrinkles and tighten everything up.
Brian
8227  8)


Well Brian, I think I'll see how the headliner looks when finished before making a decision.  I'm not sure how I would apply the steam.  Someone else has suggested trying a hair dryer on a hot setting.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: tzf60 on 27 August, 2019, 02:02:29 PM
Very impressive results, Norman! Excellent finish to the lining, and an excellent write-up of the proceedure. Really enjoying your journey!
 
Keep her lit!
Tim


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 27 August, 2019, 03:16:35 PM
Looking good Norman, and very professional as it can't be an easy job working upside down, even with cushions for your knees!
What are your thoughts on injecting steam afterwards, that was used to tighten it up? the factory method at the time to remove any wrinkles and tighten everything up.
Brian
8227  8)


Well Brian, I think I'll see how the headliner looks when finished before making a decision.  I'm not sure how I would apply the steam.  Someone else has suggested trying a hair dryer on a hot setting.
Norman, the steam used to be injected with a wand about 2 foot long, although I think the hair drier sounds more practical.
Brian 8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: jimbo64 on 27 August, 2019, 06:37:26 PM
Hi chaps nice work norm , re hair dryer would it not loosen the material, what about a clothes steamer there quite cheap or hire one just a thought


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 28 August, 2019, 07:08:18 PM

Thanks for the tips on the headliner.  I guess I need to better understand the physics of using steam, or dry heat!

It was too wet today to roll the car out of the garage to work on the headliner so I started refurbishing the rear-view mirror assembly, cleaning the door seals, and reassembling the seats.

As with many things during the rebuild I didn't take enough photographs during disassembly, so part of today was spent reading through the TAV and looking up reference pictures in order to figure out how the seat sliding mechanism works.  Figured it out as you can see below.  I found I was missing one of the four small white plastic clips that keep the linkage rods in place (see last two pictures).  The mechanism seems to work alright without it but I'll always know it's missing! So, if anybody has one by any chance I'd be very grateful.



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: peteracs on 28 August, 2019, 07:21:13 PM
Hi

My trimmer when he gave me the fabric for the headlining suggested a hair dryer to tighten it up if needed. He had trimmed the seats and door cards, but did not have the car itself so he could install the headlining hence the advice.

I have yet to put it to the test.....

Peter


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 28 August, 2019, 07:33:10 PM
I've never come across the connector-link on the front seats - what year is your car - late S2 ??

Looking good !


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 28 August, 2019, 07:50:54 PM
Fantastic job Norm and very well documented. Ref clips: unfortunately I don`t have any to hand but they look like those used in doors for locks/ levers etc.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 28 August, 2019, 07:58:48 PM
I've never come across the connector-link on the front seats - what year is your car - late S2 ??

Looking good !

Simon, it's a 1973 S2. I think the part is what shows as a "retainer" on TAV page 82A, item 32, part number 2289476


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 05 September, 2019, 07:07:41 PM

Back working on the headliner today.  It is every bit as tricky as I suspected it would be.  I spent the day adjusting the clips and pulling the fabric in different directions to try to eliminate bunching and ridges, and get smooth surfaces.  It was necessary to very carefully snip the pockets that hold the rods in order to get the right curvature on the headliner as it meets the sides of the car (picture 1). I had left about 94 centimetres of each pocket uncut when I prepared the headliner before installing it but this resulted in far too sharp a radius  Typically I made additional cuts to the pockets to about 5 or 6 centimetres away from the edges of the car. 

It was also important to make sure that the portions of the cut pockets at the edge of the car were pulled in opposite directions to avoid triple fabric thickness (picture 2).  Making cuts in the surplus fabric overlapping the edges of the roof also seemed to help the fitting process.

The trickiest part of the whole task so far has been tensioning the fabric at the corners of the roof.  If you imagine laying a piece of fabric in a deep baking tray with rounded corners you can see that there will be surplus fabric in those corners.  The easiest way to eliminate the surplus fabric, which shows up as buckling or ridges in the surface, would be to overlap the fabric but that would be a last resort.

After much adjusting Iím still not happy with the tautness of the headliner.

This takes me back to the suggestions to use hot air or steam.  As I canít find anyone who has done the job before who I could ask about the merits of the two approaches I think Iíll have to make up a jig with some buckled fabric and try out both to see what effect they each have on the vinyl. I suspect that neither will reduce buckling once the headliner is tensioned, but they may help in stretching the fabric before fixing it in place, and the fabric may then shrink as it cools - but Iím not sure what impact that would have on the adhesive and Iím sceptical of any approach that actually increases the amount of fabric!



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 06 September, 2019, 01:59:38 PM

Keep at it !!!

On the one hand it must be easier than this...on the other plenty of jobs are quite tricky the first 100 times and after that second nature.  Am thinking of this as an "easy as riding a bike" job, for someone who's never sat on a bike before, and understanding why so few amateurs take it on.

Am really looking forward to it done, and then the next person to follow the method.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 06 September, 2019, 11:15:19 PM

Keep at it !!!

On the one hand it must be easier than this...on the other plenty of jobs are quite tricky the first 100 times and after that second nature.  Am thinking of this as an "easy as riding a bike" job, for so3meone who's never sat on a bike before, and understanding why so few amateurs take it on.

Am really looking forward to it done, and then the next person to follow the method.
Excellent work so far, as you say David, once you get used to doing something it becomes easier, at the time I used  to watch  the trimmers fitting them day in day out, we were building 400-500 vehicles a day.
I wonder how much easier it would be if you could fit it with the car upside down?
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 October, 2019, 12:12:48 PM
A little bit of philosophy today.  The psychology of rebuilding a car is interesting.  I have a habit of going to the garage with good intentions and then procrastinating over which of the many outstanding jobs I should start on! Sometimes I move things around and inspect them for a couple of hours and end up getting little done. 

I have therefore adopted a new rule that says I shouldnít move anything that could be fitted to the car immediately.  With that in mind I took the tray containing my new wheel bolts and wheel centres and I polished the chrome and painted logos with Autoglym resin polish and then fitted them to the car.  Fitting the backing plates for the wheel centres was a bit tricky as they are a tight fit and I had to resort to a block of wood and a hammer to force them into position from the rear of each wheel.  Thatís one more tray that I wonít be moving again, but the boxes of used parts for sale at the end of the rebuild are growing fast.

I think Iíve now found a way to get electric power to the garage and if I succeed Iíll have light (and heating) there for the first time so will be able to continue work through the winter once I get back from my current trip to Spain where Iím writing this.  Early progress with the rebuild has made me keen to get the car back on the road as soon as possible and enjoy that delightful driving experience again! 

Whilst in philosophical mood here are some other observations on the rebuild process:
- You can never take enough notes and photographs during the disassembly phase.  I certainly didnít.
- At the start of a rebuild you should convince your next door neighbour to buy a well restored version of your car so that you always have a reference point.
- You can not extrapolate the time it will take to complete a job: if four identical things need to be done, the fourth will often take as long as the first three.
- Decision making on which parts to refurbish and which to replace is a never ending spiral.  Parts that were deemed to be suitable for refit at one stage in the rebuild no longer seem so as the rebuild progresses.

Having said all of that, I am enjoying the rebuild as much as Iíd always hoped I would, and I find even very small steps forward very rewarding. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 08 October, 2019, 01:16:53 PM
I noticed when my son worked in a customising shop that each car had a sheet of paper taped to the screen with a list of the order of work to be done next. It might pay to plan and note the next job before leaving the garage and disciplining yourself not to be diverted from the next job on the list when you start the next session. What needs doing next is generally at the front of your mind when you have to break off working.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 October, 2019, 11:56:15 AM
I noticed when my son worked in a customising shop that each car had a sheet of paper taped to the screen with a list of the order of work to be done next. It might pay to plan and note the next job before leaving the garage and disciplining yourself not to be diverted from the next job on the list when you start the next session. What needs doing next is generally at the front of your mind when you have to break off working.

Sounds like a good approach Frank.  To be honest, my comments were somewhat tongue-in-cheek!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 November, 2019, 04:38:25 PM

Just home from Spain for a few days (our 50th wedding anniversary party at the Hard Day's Night Hotel in Liverpool tomorrow) so thought I'd put together a couple of simple jigs to hold the doors while I reassemble them.  Hopefully will be able to get them built up when I get back again in December.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: chriswgawne on 01 November, 2019, 05:46:18 PM
I like those door supports Norman...and two of them as well! Proper job.
Chris


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 07 January, 2020, 05:29:30 PM

Iím currently getting all of the door components ready for installation.   Those of you with long memories will recall that I was concerned that one of my quarter light assemblies was much more curved than the other.  Since then Iíve managed to acquire a pair of used assemblies in very good condition.  Iíve cleaned them and removed residual adhesive from the window runner channels and have given the channels a light sprayed-on coat of smooth black Hammerite as their location is quite vulnerable to moisture.  I disassembled, cleaned and lubricated the swivel mechanisms.

I then fitted new flock channel which I had bought from Omicron.  It is a different type to the original metal lined channel as you can see from the pictures below.  I cut it to length and slotted it into place in the quarter light channels and also in the rear window runners. The top edge for the quarter light sections needed to be shaped to fit into the tapering top end of the channel, and I was careful to refit the small rubber blocks that go at the very top.   

Next job is cleaning the main window glasses and getting old grease off the horizontal channels in which the window reguilators operate.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 07 January, 2020, 06:09:32 PM
Looking good Norman. Just a small point when I did my Sport restoration I found the Omicron guide too tight on the glass (electric windows) and had to remove and find an alternative (I think from Elvisio Esposito) which is like the original. Think maybe manual winding will not be a problem but look out for extra strain on the poorly designed regulator mounting on the door. A problem if you have alloy doors....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 07 January, 2020, 07:04:58 PM
Looking good Norman. Just a small point when I did my Sport restoration I found the Omicron guide too tight on the glass (electric windows) and had to remove and find an alternative (I think from Elvisio Esposito) which is like the original. Think maybe manual winding will not be a problem but look out for extra strain on the poorly designed regulator mounting on the door. A problem if you have alloy doors....

I wondered about that Tim.  For each of the two assemblies I actually pushed the door glass into the channel and slid it up and down to simulate the action of raising and lowering.  It is certainly a tight fit, but I don't think will be too tight for manual winding, and my doors are steel.  I'll progress with the installation and test again when the door glass and regulators are in place.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 January, 2020, 07:58:05 PM

I now have the quarter-light assemblies and door glass ready for installation, and the window regulators lubricated and tested.

The quarter-light assemblies sit in the leading edge of the door and are fastened with three Number 4 machine screws.  These attach to cage nuts that fit in the rectangular holes in the three small bridging stampings welded into the gap between the inner and outer door skins (see first picture below).

Iíve not been able to source Number 4 cage nuts, but fortunately I have the six that I need from the replacement quarter-light assemblies that I bought and from the spare door I bought a while back.  Of the nine, three were damaged. None of the original six from my own car were able to be reused, as the original machine screws had rusted solid and the cage nuts were damaged as the screws were drilled out.  I bought a cage nut insertion tool and ground off part of the tab and shoulders so that it would fit into the gap at the top of the door.  Iíve fitted cage nuts before using a flat bladed screwdriver, but access for these is quite tricky so I thought it worth the few pounds for the tool.  Interestingly, the auto industry seems to have moved away from cage nuts and the best place to find them, and the tool, is from providers of web server racks, though the smallest size of cage nut that I could find was Number 5, which of course is too large for this job. 

There are two larger machine screws that hold the lower part of the window glass runner to the inner door skin but they can not be attached until after the door glass is connected to the window regulator.  More of that later.

The positioning of the three attachment screws is shown in the third picture below.  As you can see, that leading one is just below the pointed end of the quarter-light.  Thereís no way to get at the head with a regular screwdriver, even a stubby one.  Something like the angled screwdriver that Iíve shown is required.  In the picture youíll see that Iíve temporarily fitted the cage nuts (with Copaslip applied).  I did this to make sure that all of the threads worked freely, before fitting the cage nuts to the doors.  Given the difficult access to the heads of the screws through small openings in the lower quarter-light rubber seals I did not want to discover part way through assembly that any of the threads were crossed or very tight!

The final step prior to installation was getting the spacer blocks ready for fitment.  These are something Iíve pondered about for a while. The blocks, made of hard rubber, appear to have been used by the factory to get the correct alignment of the quarter-light assemblies to the doors.  Each of my two doors and the spare that I bought have a different combination of blocks, or no block at all.  The blocks that I have are in two sizes: approximately 2mm thick and approximately 5mm. 

I guess there could be variation between vehicles in three different areas: (1) the size and shape of the quarter-light assembly (hard to see where variation could be introduced here), (2) the size/shape of the door aperture in the bodyshell, and/or (3) variation in the positioning of the three stampings welded in the top of each door and to which the quarter-light assemblies are attached.  Iím hoping that the third of these is the correct reason, and I can imagine a factory assembler using a jig or gauge to determine whether each of the three fixing points need a 5mm block, or a 2mm block or none at all.  Certainly on the three doors in my possession there are significant differences in the distance from the base of these stampings to the top edge of the door.

I canít imagine that in the factory the doors would have been assembled, then fitted to the car and then removed and the block configuration adjusted if the door closing gaps were incorrect.  That would have been a very inefficient practice.  I may well be wrong!  Worst case I may later find myself disassembling and adjusting.

As shown in the fourth photograph below I will be fitting two rubber blocks to one door and one to the other - in the same positions as they were removed, and even though Iím not re-fitting the original quarter-light assemblies.     

Tomorrow Iíll be doing the installation.



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 January, 2020, 09:53:08 AM

I started door assembly yesterday.  I had previously fitted the driver side door mirror as access is quite difficult after window glass is installed, and I had thoroughly treated the inside lower surfaces with Dinitrol cavity wax..


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 January, 2020, 09:56:01 AM

The first assembly task was inserting the window regulator mechanism, in fully wound down position, into the door cavity.  It is important to do this first as the quarterlight assembly can not be fitted after the assembly is in place as thereís insufficient room in the door cavity.  The regulator winder spindle was pushed through the hole in the inner door skin but the regulator was left loose (no machine screws attached at this stage ) to allow it to be jiggled around during glass installation.

Then the rubber spacing blocks were positioned in the mounting brackets at the top of the door and the quarter light assembly, with the three mounting screws in place, was then lowered into the door aperture. This is done by pivoting it 90 degrees (see photo) to get the lower bracket through the narrow opening in the top of the door.  It is then swivelled back through 90 degrees and tilted back to allow the swivel mechanism that projects from the bottom to be hooked over the top of the mounting brackets.  It is then tilted forward so that the three machine screws line up with the holes in the mounting brackets.  It's important to ensure that the projecting lower leg of the quarterlight assembly passes between the window regulator and the outer door skin (not the inner door skin). 

The three machine screws in the door top should be fastened about half way at this stage, allowing some movement in the quarterlight assembly during glass fitment.  The offset screwdriver shown in an earlier post was used to turn the leading screw as access is not possible with a normal or even a stubby screwdriver.

The pictures below show the left door.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 January, 2020, 10:02:35 AM

Next, the window glass, with bottom rail attached (conventional wisdom is to never remove the bottom rail from the glass) was lowered through the opening in the  top of the door and the bottom rail lined up with the two pulleys on the regulator.  It's quite a tight fit.  Note that at this stage the regulator has not been attached to the door skin.  The door glass was then slid back as far as possible towards the trailing edge of the door so that the pulleys could be hooked onto the rail.  Some jiggling of the regulator was needed to achieve this. See first and second pictures showing before and after connection. They are from the right door. The forward pulley hooks into the leading edge of the rail, and the trailing pulley fits through a gap in the bottom middle of the rail.

The window regulator was then connected to the inner door skin using three machine screws and spring washers, which fit into small cage nuts surrounding the regulator spindle (see picture).  The lower portion of the quarterlight assembly was then loosely fastened in place using two Number 5 machine  screws and spring washers, which fit into cage nuts in the inner door skin. .

The window glass was then pushed forwards to slot it into the forward runner channel, and while holding it in place (pushed forward), the window regulator was wound to itís top position.  This allowed room to feed the rear runner channel into the door cavity.  It was pushed onto the trailing edge of the door glass and then attached to the door skin with two Number 5 machine screws and spring washers which fit into cage nuts.  The top one of these is in the inner door skin at the top, and the second (lower one) is positioned on the trailing portion of the door (that connects inner and outer surfaces.

At this stage I wound the window glass up and down a few times, and at first could see a gap at the top between the glass and the forward runner.   Pivoting the quarterlightlight assembly backwards slightly and tightening the trailing one of the three quarterlight attachment screws eliminated the gap.  At this stage all of the fastenings were tightened and the up-down motion checked.

In my car, the effort required to open the window increases a lot as the glass gets to about 70% up and beyond.  (As Tim warned in his earlier post).   Iíll play a bit with the mounting screws, and also see if the window moves any more easily with spacers between the lowest quarterlight assembly mounting screw and the inner door skin - just in case the front and rear runners are not completely aligned.

Finally I greased  the pulleys in the sliding rail at the bottom of the window glass.




Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 11 January, 2020, 11:43:21 AM
Looking great - but doesn't it all take time !

Maybe try some talc on the window channels until they bed in ??


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 11 January, 2020, 03:36:16 PM
Norman you may wish to check but the 2 empty holes on the regulator may be where the factory put in self tappers(!) to lock the regulator after adjustment. If thats the case you should also lock it as the effort of operation will move the regulator out of adjustment.....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 11 January, 2020, 05:09:13 PM
Excellent work and very useful narrative on reassembling everything. It takes enough time to do the work without having to sit down and explain it all, so for that effort, thank you very much Norm. Keep up the good work.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 January, 2020, 07:35:05 PM
Looking great - but doesn't it all take time !

Maybe try some talc on the window channels until they bed in ??

You are absolutely right Simon about it taking a long time - especially for a mechanical novice like me!   Thanks for the talc suggestion.  I'll also have a chat with Omicron who supplied the channel and see if they have any suggestions.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 January, 2020, 07:42:49 PM
Norman you may wish to check but the 2 empty holes on the regulator may be where the factory put in self tappers(!) to lock the regulator after adjustment. If thats the case you should also lock it as the effort of operation will move the regulator out of adjustment.....

That's really useful input Tim.  I have the original screws, and yes, they are self tappers.  There was one on the driver side and two on the passenger side.  I thought they were a bodge by a previous owner but now I can understand their purpose.  The only challenge is whether to slacken the three machine screws that hold the regulator in place and jiggle the regulator around until the holes for the self tappers align, which would get my regulators back to where they were before disassembly. Or to drill new holes through the outer skin holes.  Decisions, decisions!   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 January, 2020, 07:45:21 PM
Excellent work and very useful narrative on reassembling everything. It takes enough time to do the work without having to sit down and explain it all, so for that effort, thank you very much Norm. Keep up the good work.

Thanks John. I may well be too verbose for some, but as a novice mechanic myself I thought it worth including a lot of detail to help anybody else with a similar lack of mechanical expertise undertaking the task in the future!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 January, 2020, 01:17:21 PM

Following on from Tim's comments I've attached small self tappers to keep the the window regulators in position.  There were two holes drilled in each inner door skin which lined up with corresponding holes in the regulators.  The holes for the three main attachment screws are quite large to allow some movement of the regulators during adjustment, so the self tappers are essential to avoid movement after final positioning. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 January, 2020, 01:36:12 PM

A couple more small jobs on the doors completed.  In each door there are two foam rubber blocks that the window rests again at the lowest point of travel, I presume to stop the window rattling.   I had removed these during disassembly and have now refitted them.  Also, there is a plate attached to the rail at the bottom of the door glass in each door.  The plates incorporate a small rubber block and stop the window glass from being raised too far.  They stop against an adjustable screw at the top of the door.  I have now refitted these. See pictures three and four.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 January, 2020, 08:29:45 PM

I've been getting the door handles and locks ready for reattachment and have a question that I could do with some help with.  What would be the best lubricant to use on the lock mechanisms, and what is the best way to apply it?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: jimbo64 on 16 January, 2020, 10:06:31 PM
Hi norm Iím going to use wurth white, long-life maintenance grease with PTFE
Iím no expert but think it will be up to the job, nice work by the way
Jim


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 18 January, 2020, 09:08:14 AM
For I job like that I go for grease in a spray can because it blasts into the nooks and crannies. However I am conscious that it is thinner in consistency than grease in a tub.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 March, 2020, 09:06:48 PM

Jim and Frank - thanks for that advice.  I think I'll use a spray grease to make sure I get into all of the nooks and crannies, then maybe then add some regular grease in specific areas.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 March, 2020, 09:10:49 PM

Iím back from Spain so able to work on the car again.  Iíve spent the last few days cleaning up the interior trim parts.  Iíve used lots of elbow grease, and a bottle of the impressive Autoglym Vinyl & Rubber Care. I found the best approach on the grained vinyl parts to be a preliminary clean with the Autoglym, then a second application worked into the grain with with a small bristle brush using a rotary motion. 

My car had carpet glued to the tunnel under the gear lever but I plan to leave the rubber exposed when I re-trim the car so I had to remove all of the adhesive stuck to it. Mostly done with a finger nail, a few millimetres at a time, but worth the effort.

While the visible parts of the trim have come up really well, the undersides in some cases are in pretty poor condition - see the fourth picture below for a couple of examples.  Iím wondering what is the best way to treat them. Iíll treat any exposed metal with rust remover, but Iím not sure what to about the areas of dense foam or other backing that are showing significant surface degradation.  One thought was to spray on some expanding foam to stabilise the surface, and then carve away any excess.   

I would welcome any advice.



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 12 March, 2020, 08:38:39 PM
I have often thought of using expanding spray foam that way too but never had the occasion to try it. A word of warning though, check how much it expands and adjust application accordingly! I have had some exciting adventures with it when doing DIY jobs on the house and it is a devil to clean up when it has gone rouge on you. I await your progress with interest.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 13 March, 2020, 08:55:29 AM
Norman,
Soon after I put Fay back on the road I got fed up with getting covered in foam dust every time I went over a bump.
So I decided to replace all the rotten foam.
I removed all the lower padding at knee level and scraped out the old foam, then using the metal former and the semirigid outer cover I remade these using expanding builders foam.
It's a messy job and best if you can do all you want to do in one day, as after that everything hardens and clogs up.
I then cut off the excess with a craft knife.
It works well where you have the metal former and the outer cover, but if you have a part that relies on it shape to keep the foam into place, then you may find as I did, it distorts the the face of the component.
All in all I was about 80% successful, the major failure was the trim panel that runs under the instruments on the Berlina that connects to the air vents at either end of the dash.
Brian
8227
 8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 13 March, 2020, 09:02:26 AM
here's one I made earlier ;D
Sorry it's the top one.
Brian


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 13 March, 2020, 02:56:02 PM
It would be laborious but to avoid distortion perhaps you could cover the original in clingfilm then lay up a layer of glass fibre over the outer face to provide a hard surface support.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 March, 2020, 02:01:32 PM

Thank you Brian and Frank for your input.  Iíve decided that my parts are not in bad enough condition to warrant the expanding foam treatment and Iíve decided on a less drastic approach. 

1. Cut away any loose foam or backing.
2. Scrape and wire-brush areas where the metal reinforcing plates have rusted.
3. Apply rust converter to the affected areas.
4. Apply Hammerite once the converter has dried.
5. Apply a bead of adhesive along the join between metal and foam to stabilise and limit any further surface breakdown.
6. Fit new hardware ready for installation

The steps are shown in the first six pictures below. The part shown is the lower dash panel that fits to the right of the steering column (on a RHD car).  Iíve used the same approach on the main lower dash panel, the top dash panel, armrests, and top rear trim caps.  Iíve bought new door cards and door caps as mine were beyond refurbishment.

When I bought the car the fuse cover panel was damaged and there were no side wings fitted to the console.  I managed to buy two incomplete console assemblies and have cannibalised them to build up one good one - shown below. Itís interesting to see the design variations between different  consoles: black versus bright heater air grill; large holes (for cigarette lighter etc) either side of grill versus small attachment holes only; different methods of top attachment for the console wings; and square versus rounded bars on the fuse cover grille!   

Now that all of the interior trim has been refurbished itís time to build up the seats.  The (only) good thing about being in the over-70 Coronavirus high risk category is that my voluntary self isolation is providing plenty of time to work on these jobs!  I don't have any symptoms and my self isolation is just to keep away from any people who might be infectious.  I have to be extra careful as my wife is in an even higher risk category as a result of a long-standing lung condition. I hope all Forum readers are bearing up well at this difficult time. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 15 March, 2020, 03:34:46 PM
Enjoying all the detail and as you say, there is an up side to being isolated ....

Problem here is that the resto's are all closed as well - imagine how hard the French find this .....

Stay safe !


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 March, 2020, 03:51:12 PM

I built up the front seats today.  I reported a while back in this thread on the refurbishment of the frames and sliding/locking mechanisms.  The squabs and backs were re-trimmed by Brian Cates two years ago and have been sitting wrapped up on a shelf ever since.  Of the four pieces of the recliner mechanisms, three are what came with the car when I bought it.  I managed to buy a second-hand replacement for the fourth which was extremely badly pitted and with large flakes of chrome peeling off.  The only fiddly job was repairing, with metal putty, a couple of the black plastic washers/spacers that fit between the seat backs and the recliner mechanisms. 

That's the last of the internal trim jobs done so I'll be back to working on the glass, and seals on the door apertures next.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 24 March, 2020, 02:41:57 PM

Some fiddly jobs completed.  Bonnet and boot catches cleaned and given a coat of clear lacquer. The boot stay was refurbished and fitted a while back, but I took it off today to lacquer it with the other bare metal parts.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 26 March, 2020, 06:02:41 PM
I'm now working on the fuel system.  I've de-rusted and painted the filler neck and hose guard, and cleaned up the fuel sender.  The tank is ready to fit, but I have some questions about the filter attached to the drain plug.  I have two tanks: one that I've had refurbished and a spare that's not in such good condition.  Looking at the drain plugs, the one in the refurbished tank has no filter, and the prongs either side are long.  The one with the spare tank has shorter prongs and what looks like a home-made gauze filter, though it looks like it's been sprayed with black paint at some time! It does not look removable. 

My questions are:
1) Are gauze filters readily available, and if so are they a Lancia design, or available as after-market?
2) How would a replacement filter be attached? Do they just clip in?
3) Am I right to assume that the top of the filter should be above the bottom end of the pickup pipe that's visible just inside the hole for the drain plug?

I'd greatly appreciate any pointers as I'm in new territory here!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 26 March, 2020, 06:27:19 PM
Hi Norman

Yes the filter should cover the pick-up pipe. You can get replacement filter for the in line glass fuel filter - something like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CHROME-INLINE-FUEL-FILTER-CHOOSE-SIZE-6MM-8MM-10MM-UNIVERSAL/362841267896?var=631984875716&hash=item547b065eb8:m:mTOvbiZ7TSLTwuMZSD8858A

You need to check the dimensions as there are a few about. But you can wire these in to the ears of the drain plug.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 26 March, 2020, 06:34:16 PM
Hi Norm
It looks like you are planning to replace the Cavis pipes, you can renovate them if you want to - gentle warming to make them supple again and careful cleaning with acetone - it will remove the writing if you rub too hard

The original filters had a gauze and rubber(?) ring around the top that the pick up pushed into, I think I have one on the shelf to photograph

Maybe, as Tim suggests, not get too worried about the tank filter and put an inline filter further along the pipe


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: jimbo64 on 26 March, 2020, 07:20:41 PM
Hi norm there is a thread  on this somewhere it involves two small oileals and a bit of fine mesh all from eBay I have done this but itís packed away hereís two pictures from the guy that did it


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: jimbo64 on 26 March, 2020, 07:47:26 PM
Have a look at these Nitrile Rotary shaft oil seals
inner diameter 8mm outer 19mm, 4mm thick - they appear to be prefect as there is a groove into which the gauze will sit (once I get some)

http://simplybearings.co.uk


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 26 March, 2020, 07:51:42 PM
I do have an in-line filter.  At least I assume that's what's in this picture of my engine bay pre strip-down.  The pipework is far from elegant but I'm concentrating for the moment on understanding what's in the boot before understanding what's under the bonnet......  which is actually all in a cardboard box at the moment!

Jim, thanks for your suggestion.  Looks interesting.

I may go along with your suggestion, Tim and Simon, to dispense with the drain plug filter if I can't readily find/make one.  Always prefer belt and braces though.

Simon, is there any reason to stay with the original Clavis (never heard that term before) pipes, given that I've already bought replacements?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 26 March, 2020, 09:03:42 PM
Maybe, as Tim suggests, not get too worried about the tank filter and put an inline filter further along the pipe
Just confirm the inline filter I mentioned was because you can buy replacement cartridges that fit the Lancia drain plug assembly.....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: neil-yaj396 on 27 March, 2020, 09:08:52 AM
Norm, trust you will be replacing all those plastic fuel lines? They don't look ethanol proof.....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 27 March, 2020, 09:57:06 AM
Norm, will you be using a stand mechanical pump or the extra one you have in the photo.  Omicron stock the Cavis pipe, it starts off blue then turns more green over time it is quite flexible to start with but does harden, as for ethanol proof unknown.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 27 March, 2020, 11:26:54 AM
Tim, thanks for the clarification on the filter.  I admit to having been confused but thatís not unusual!  Iíve ordered one of the replacement filter elements from the company you mentioned and will see if I can fit it to the drain plug.

Neil P,  yes Iíll replace the pipes.  The blue Cavis pipes for the boot expansion box that I showed in the earlier picture were bought from Omicron, so Iíll go back there for the engine bay ones.

Neil S, I could very much do with some advice on the fuel pump situation.  The car came with the Facet electric pump shown below, with the see-through fuel filter one side of it and the silver Sytec FreeFlow device the other.  Is that Sytec device also a filter, and, if so, does it make sense to have two?

Also, does the electric fuel pump replace or supplement the standard mechanical one?  Iíd assumed the mechanical pump stays connected.  

Finally, Does the electric pump get wired in for continual use, or via a switch so that it is only used to supplement the mechanical pump during engine starting?

Help with all of this much appreciated.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 27 March, 2020, 12:20:21 PM
The car came with the Facet electric pump shown below, with the see-through fuel filter one side of it and the silver Sytec FreeFlow device the other.  Is that Sytec device also a filter, and, if so, does it make sense to have two?

Also, does the electric fuel pump replace or supplement the standard mechanical one?  Iíd assumed the mechanical pump stays connected. 

Finally, Does the electric pump get wired in for continual use, or via a switch so that it is only used to supplement the mechanical pump during engine starting?

Help with all of this much appreciated.

You can do either with the electric fuel pump - That facet is good for continuous use or you could plumb it in series with the mech pump (with a switch and (4amp?) in line fuse on the ignition circuit and use it to prime the carbs (always required if car is not being used for weeks at a time). Keep the cheap in line filter (you may wish to replace with new), and the Sytec is a 0-5 psi (or some such) which should be fitted after the electric pump and set to 3 (psi).


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 27 March, 2020, 12:37:22 PM
Norm, I would be tempted to run via the mechanical pump and remove that additional item and add an in-line filter/regulator such as a FilterKing device, then you can remove that Sytec device too.   In the last year I have fitted an electrical pump to mine near the tank underneath the car to operate when you use the choke to prime the carbs only, works when the check light is on in the instrument panel, then shuts off. The car runs fine with mechanical pump at the correct fuel pressure.   I can send photos if you like later.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 27 March, 2020, 11:05:18 PM


Tim, thanks for the advice.

Neil, is the Sytec device a pressure regulator then?   Does the Fulvia not have a regulator as standard?    Would certainly appreciate photos of your electric pump installation when you get a chance.  No hurry as Iím working from the boot forward on my car.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 28 March, 2020, 06:53:26 AM
Yes the Sytec is a regulator. What Neils was suggesting is a ďstandard post production setup a lot of Fulvia owners have with the use of a Filter King which combines an (accurately adjustable regulator - but you need to the put a temporary gauge on it to set it up) with a filter.

Series 2 cars effectively regulate them selves with the narrow bore return pipe.... early S1 had a regultor as they did not have this return pipe.

I am a fan of those cheap plastic in line filters with old Lancias as they catch the crap an easy to replace when looking used. Carry one in the boot.......


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 28 March, 2020, 08:41:22 AM
On all my Fulvias and also on the cars of many Fulvia friends we have fitted an electric pump to prime the carbs after a long inactivity (say about 1 week). It is operated by a switch placed near the steering column. This system can also allow using the electric pump in case of failure of the mechanical one. A simple plumbing scheme is attached (electrical wiring omitted), Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 29 March, 2020, 02:31:57 PM

Tim - thanks for that added information.

Andrea - thanks for the plumbing scheme.  That will come in useful.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 29 March, 2020, 05:41:48 PM
I personally have found plumbing in series works fine.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 29 March, 2020, 06:29:48 PM
Mine is fitted in series, no T-piece required, you could relocate that existing pump to the rear as priming/ backup to leave the engine less cluttered.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 30 March, 2020, 07:42:57 AM
If you use the in-series arrangement for the electric pump, you will actually pump through the mechanical pump, not an ideal situation, Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: davidwheeler on 30 March, 2020, 06:56:49 PM
I cannot see any reason to keep the mechanical pump, an electric one and filter/regulator works fine for me (on both my Fulvias and my Aprilia as well)   Sometimes, a little discreet modernisation is worth the effort - such as LED bulbs and also indicators on the older cars.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 April, 2020, 08:32:13 PM

Well I think I have enough information now to decide on a strategy for the fuel supply. Thank you all for your suggestions.

Itís been an interesting process triangulating between the varying views of different experts  Plenty of parameters to perm: mechanical pump only,  or mechanical with electric, or electric only;  plumb electric pump in series or parallel; wire electric pump to be on permanently, or only when starting, or manually controlled; electric pump situated near tank or in engine bay; in-line filter or combined filter/regulator, etc.

Now back to installing the tank, but I couldnít resist posting a shot of the Jim Clark picture that my son bought me for my birthday.   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: rogerelias on 01 April, 2020, 08:57:46 PM
Just for the record, i run an electric pump, ignition controlled in the engine bay, then a filter king regulator, and have made a blanking plate for the mechanical pump. The pump is a Facet, run it like this for about 12 years never had a problem.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: chriswgawne on 02 April, 2020, 08:27:24 AM
Each of our Aurelias has a Facet electric pump which I fitted at the time the vehicle restoration was near completion.
However, about 5 years ago I decided to retro fit rebuilt OE FISPA mechanical pumps.
The reasons? I had a 3 year old Facet pump fail  on a 4 day European Rally where my 'spares package' in the boot contained  a spare Facet pump to get us quickly on our way. Then later that summer, I had a dynamo issue on a trip in a B20 back home to the Veneto from Basle when it was overcast and raining. Lots of tunnels so lights as well and then the dynamo seemed to start playing up. The weather brightened once we were past Brescia so the wipers could go off but daytime lights are mandatory in Italy so it was a nailbiting last 150km. All ok but it made me rethink the electric  fuel pump issue.
The other small but significant thing which happened around that time was that I found a source for the rubberised pump  membrane material so I could make new diaphragms for the pumps I had on the shelf.
I leave the Facet pumps on the cars  but they are switched and just used for starting after a long period of idleness.
Chris


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 02 April, 2020, 10:29:40 AM
Loving the painting of the legendary Jim Clark! Tidy looking garage Norm. Good work so far.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 09 April, 2020, 06:52:10 PM

Thanks for the input Roger and Chris.  Glad you like the Jim Clark print Jay!

Today I started the job Iíve been putting off for some considerable time.  If youíve been following this thread youíll recall that I started fitting a new headliner about 6 months ago.  Having got the rods and headliner in preliminary position I held off gluing it in place, partly because the weather had turned cold, and partly because I was uneasy about how best to do the stretching of the fabric!

I decided to wait until the spring and see if I could get a local trimmer to take a look at it, but with the Covid 19 situation thatís not possible, and I really want to be able to get on and get the glass back in, so Iíve decided to press ahead on my own.

Today I fixed each of the 4 sides of the roof in turn, starting with the front, then rear, and then the two sides.   I marked the fabric with pencil lines to indicate where to apply the glue.  I used masking tape on the windscreen aperture, but decided it wasnít really necessary, so just used pencil marks for the rest.   I decanted a small amount of the Alpha AF178 contact adhesive into a jar, and used a narrow brush, about 10mm wide to apply it to both surfaces, being careful to ensure no strings of glue trailing from the brush. Then left it to get touch dry. Iíd hoped the adhesive would allow some repositioning time but that wasnít the case.  Once contact was made there was no budging it, so I had to be very careful.

After pressing the fabric into place I secured it with bulldog clips until dry and then cut off the surplus material.

Tomorrow Iíll tackle the difficult part which is the four corners.  The front two, above the A pillars should be the least difficult.  Itís the rear corners, above the C pillars, that will be hardest as thereís more surplus material there!




Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 09 April, 2020, 08:11:11 PM

Thanks for the input Roger and Chris.  Glad you like the Jim Clark print Jay!

Today I started the job Iíve been putting off for some considerable time.  If youíve been following this thread youíll recall that I started fitting a new headliner about 6 months ago.  Having got the rods and headliner in preliminary position I held off gluing it in place, partly because the weather had turned cold, and partly because I was uneasy about how best to do the stretching of the fabric!

I decided to wait until the spring and see if I could get a local trimmer to take a look at it, but with the Covid 19 situation thatís not possible, and I really want to be able to get on and get the glass back in, so Iíve decided to press ahead on my own.

Today I fixed each of the 4 sides of the roof in turn, starting with the front, then rear, and then the two sides.   I marked the fabric with pencil lines to indicate where to apply the glue.  I used masking tape on the windscreen aperture, but decided it wasnít really necessary, so just used pencil marks for the rest.   I decanted a small amount of the Alpha AF178 contact adhesive into a jar, and used a narrow brush, about 10mm wide to apply it to both surfaces, being careful to ensure no strings of glue trailing from the brush. Then left it to get touch dry. Iíd hoped the adhesive would allow some repositioning time but that wasnít the case.  Once contact was made there was no budging it, so I had to be very careful.

After pressing the fabric into place I secured it with bulldog clips until dry and then cut off the surplus material.

Tomorrow Iíll tackle the difficult part which is the four corners.  The front two, above the A pillars should be the least difficult.  Itís the rear corners, above the C pillars, that will be hardest as thereís more surplus material there!



Looking good Norman, I do remember them cutting darts to lose the excess around the corners.
Fingers crossed.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 April, 2020, 06:21:06 PM
I managed to do the front corners today.  They worked out ok, though I did need to cut one dart each side to take up some of the slack material.  Couldn't resist fitting  the visors to see what they looked like, although they'll have to come off again when I fit the windscreen.  I'll have a day off tomorrow and will then tackle the much more difficult rear corners on Monday.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 11 April, 2020, 08:06:28 PM
Looking very tidy.  ;D


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 13 April, 2020, 01:10:57 AM
Very nice Norman, they'll be Fulvia owners queueing at your door for you to do their's after this ;D
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 April, 2020, 05:20:42 PM

I wouldn't like to do another headliner Brian!  My nerves are pretty frayed after this one, and I've still got one corner to go.
 

 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 April, 2020, 05:31:27 PM

Today I completed the A Pillars.  The first decision was how to handle the join to the main roof portion of the headliner.  It wasn't possible to stitch them together as this would have had to have been done before installing the roof section and would have required a level of accuracy that I don't possess to get the joins in exactly the right place. So I ended up just overlapping.  I tried folding the top of the A pillar section but the resulting fabric layers were too thick, so I just cut a straight edge and I think it look ok.

The second decision was how to do the padding.  The foam in my original headliner pillar covers had pretty much disintegrated, but I was just about able to roughly discern the dimensions.  The original foam was about 5mm thick.  The only thing I had remotely similar was the padding from an old laptop case.  It was more rigid than the original foam so I had to bevel the edges to get the right shape, and the pieces that I had weren't long enough so I had to use two pieces on each pillar.

After gluing the foam in place on the pillars I glued the covers in place.  I pulled the fabric fairly taught so used a lot of bulldog clips to keep the edges from sliding while they dried.  Overall I think they came out OK.  Tomorrow I'll do the C Pillars and the strip across the parcel shelf...... that's if I can finish the stretching of the main fabric on the one remaining corner first!  


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 13 April, 2020, 05:59:50 PM

I wouldn't like to do another headliner Brian!  My nerves are pretty frayed after this one, and I've still got one corner to go.
 

 
Norman, I can well imagine your reluctance!
However it will be good that other owners have your experience, and hard won knowledge to draw on.
Brilliant job.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 April, 2020, 07:28:08 PM
A key milestone reached today as I finished the headliner installation.  Final tasks were lining the C pillars, and fitting the thin strip that goes between the parcel shelf and rear windscreen.

Overall Iím quite pleased with the outcome although I didnít get the fabric as taut as Iíd have liked in the rear corners of the roof.  You can see in the second picture where itís not as taut as would be ideal and the other rear corner is slacker again, and that was after Iíd unpicked part of the last seam to enable one section to be overlapped in order to take up some of the excess fabric.

Just to confuse you, the first picture is passenger side whereas the other three are driver.  The last picture shows one of the C pillar covers that came with the car.

Interestingly, a detailed comparison of the original and new headliners shows that each section of the original was slightly tapered towards the side of the car, by about a centimetre for the first three sections and about two centimetres for the fourth, whereas the new aftermarket headliner had no tapering.  That lack of tapering adds up to about five centimetres of extra fabric that has to be found a home for!  

Next Iíd like to install the rear window and windscreen.  Has anybody tried fitting them without help, or are they both a two-person job?  Fortunately I can proceed with installing the door aperture seals and trim and see what surprises that brings.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 16 April, 2020, 10:36:59 AM
Well done Norm, it looks great, congratulations on your perseverance!  Just one question, are  there any Bulldog clips left in the world? LOL.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 16 April, 2020, 10:37:21 AM
Well done Norm, it looks great, congratulations on your perseverance!  Just one question, are  there any Bulldog clips left in the world? LOL.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: D5177_55A on 16 April, 2020, 05:04:40 PM
Brave man!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 April, 2020, 05:50:32 PM

Now that the headliner is finished, I've started fitting the seals and trim to the door apertures.  Spent a large part of the day scraping glue and adhesive off the stainless steel parts. 

I've fitted the wide strips that cover the flanges at the edge of the roof.  They're held in with some temporary self tappers while I decide how to make the permanent fitting.  They were riveted in place when I bought the car and I had to drill them out, except for the quarter-light section that used the original screws.  I think I'll have to go with small rivets as the holes had been drilled larger so even if I could find the correct screws, they'd be too narrow to fit.

I also need to find some very, very small screws (4mm diameter head, 6mm long overall, countersunk, with a finer thread than on a normal self tapper) for the row of very small holes along the inner edge of each piece.  I have a feeling these were added by a previous owner as I can't see them in the TAV.

I'm still keen to hear if anybody can answer the question I posed earlier: has anyone ever fitted a rear screen and/or windscreen on their own, or are they definitely multi-person jobs?

   



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: jimbo64 on 16 April, 2020, 06:29:30 PM
Good work norm Iíve herd that when you fit the interior trim it helps tighten up the roof lining 😊


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 16 April, 2020, 06:56:03 PM
Norm, I used a professional fitter as I wanted them to check the seals and glass I had to use the best ones front and rear, he fitted both on his own and sealed them up in a few hours.

 (Years ago I helped to fit a windscreen in a friend's Beetle, I don't think I would attempt it on my own, certainly not with the front screen, may be the rear)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 17 April, 2020, 06:44:33 AM
Norman the small screws you are talking about, were they where the felt for the drop glass is attached horizontally along the bottom of the window aperture? if yes, then they were fitted by the factory, I did my drivers door years ago, an in the end I lost patience and stuck the felt strip on as I couldn't pick up the holes, I should have persevered as glueing didn't work very well.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 April, 2020, 08:24:20 AM
Norman the small screws you are talking about, were they where the felt for the drop glass is attached horizontally along the bottom of the window aperture? if yes, then they were fitted by the factory, I did my drivers door years ago, an in the end I lost patience and stuck the felt strip on as I couldn't pick up the holes, I should have persevered as glueing didn't work very well.
Brian
8227  8)

No Brian, these are ones that hold the long trim section along the top of the door aperture, and which overlaps the roof rail.  I'm pretty sure they are non standard. You can see one of the positions on the left edge in this picture. I think they were fitted by a previous owner because the inner portion of the trim didn't sit properly for some reason.  Fortunately, Simon is sending me some small screws that will hopefully do the job.  

The ones that you refer to are on the window scrapers.  They'll be interesting to fit!  On the S2 Coupe the scrapers were originally stapled in place.  I know that Omicron use very small self tappers that disappear into the "fur", and I'll hopefully be able to get a supply from them.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 April, 2020, 11:38:04 AM

Todayís question! When fitting trim directly to the car bodywork, such as these sill strips, should I put anything in between, like silicone for example?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 17 April, 2020, 11:57:39 AM
A good question, mine have never been re-fitted fully since my restoration, I did considering fixing them with a little tiger seal, then stick dummy screw heads in the trim screw holes rather than drill extra holes in the top of the box section.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 17 April, 2020, 10:15:42 PM
Norman the small screws you are talking about, were they where the felt for the drop glass is attached horizontally along the bottom of the window aperture? if yes, then they were fitted by the factory, I did my drivers door years ago, an in the end I lost patience and stuck the felt strip on as I couldn't pick up the holes, I should have persevered as glueing didn't work very well.
Brian
8227  8)

No Brian, these are ones that hold the long trim section along the top of the door aperture, and which overlaps the roof rail.  I'm pretty sure they are non standard. You can see one of the positions on the left edge in this picture. I think they were fitted by a previous owner because the inner portion of the trim didn't sit properly for some reason.  Fortunately, Simon is sending me some small screws that will hopefully do the job.  

The ones that you refer to are on the window scrapers.  They'll be interesting to fit!  On the S2 Coupe the scrapers were originally stapled in place.  I know that Omicron use very small self tappers that disappear into the "fur", and I'll hopefully be able to get a supply from them.
Thanks Norman, no knowledge regarding your  top screws, however my 2c had the same as you describe that Omicron fitted.
I have no doubt Fay hadn't had this scraper channel replaced as she only been on the road 9 years, and as found 27k miles on the clock.
Must admit I'm surprised that you state series 2 Coupe had them stapled on, how did that work as the scraper fits to the door itself?
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 April, 2020, 07:57:14 AM

Brian, good point. My recollection was inaccurate.  It was the connection of the scraper to the external stainless steel trim strip that I was thinking of, not the scraper to inner door skin. Back on page 9 or thereabouts of this blog I showed pictures of the external scraper with staple holes in the trim strip.

Actually, I can't find any pictures of the inner scraper to see how it was connected, but for sure there aren't any staple holes in the inner door skin, in fact I can't see any screw holes either.  I'm wondering if the scraper was attached to the door trim cap rather than directly to the inner skin. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: neil-yaj396 on 18 April, 2020, 08:06:30 AM
On the Beta Coupe the scraper is spot welded to the trim. The welds often fail and the scraper ends up in the bottom of the door....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 April, 2020, 10:12:53 AM

I found some pictures of my old door tops (the tops themselves are in a box in the loft somewhere!).  So, the answer for the Series 2 Coupe is that the inner scraper was attached (glued?) to the back of the door top, and the outer scraper was stapled to the external stainless steel trim strip.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 18 April, 2020, 01:32:38 PM
Norman - looking good. Have you fitted your rain gutter yet? If so what tiny screws did you use and what mastic??

Tim


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 April, 2020, 02:16:35 PM

Tim - Iíve put them in place temporarily and was hoping for an answer from somebody on the forum to my earlier question as to what kind of sealant or mastic to use between trim like these and, for example, the sill strips.  Iíve read somewhere that the Sikaflex products might be suitable. Any thoughts?

With regard to the screws,  are you referring to the row of holes down the centre line, or the very small holes close to the inside edge? I wasnít sure if the latter were standard, or were made by a previous owner. They are shown in a photo above.

My thinking on mechanically securing the gutters is as follows:

Firstly the primary fittings along the centre line. I assume screws with fairly flat heads were used originally as the channels have to be kept reasonably clear for the rubber trim to push in. Mine were riveted in place and I think the holes were enlarged. Any screws that Iíve tried with a large enough thread had heads that were way too large, so I was planning to use rivets.

Secondly, the very small holes along the inner edge. I was able to salvage one screw when I disassembled. The head is about 4mm diameter and overall length 6mm and a relatively fine thread (for what is presumably a self tapper). Again, all of my small screws have heads that are too large and/or threads too coarse. Simon Ingham has very kindly put some small screws in the post to me and Iím hoping theyíll be suitable. I couldnít find anything like them online.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 18 April, 2020, 03:00:31 PM
Hi Norm, the screws are on their way ..... Re mastic, I was introduced to a sealant called ArboMast Autograde when I was looking for a "DumDum" replacement. It doesn't set as such, just forms a thick skin over time and you can lay a good thick bead -I would have a go with this, it isn't expensive

Sikaflex is a pain to unstick and although there is a non setting sika it is very messy !!

Simon INGMAN (sorry to correct you !)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 18 April, 2020, 03:19:40 PM
Norman

I was testing the water for suitable supplies of those small screws I think I went down to my fastner supplier and matched a sample but that was 14 years ago and fastners have consolidated so much more limited range. I am with Simon on Sikaflex. Its good for certain obs like the front trim on the bonnet, but all I was looking for on the gutters was a flexible, manipulative, sealant to seal the gutter to the paint. I was advised windscreen sealer similar to Simon's tube as it was non setting. Only problem was it was very messy. Black goo on a white car (like yours...).


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 April, 2020, 05:15:56 PM

Thanks for the advice chaps.  I'll get some of the Arbomast sealant. 

Simon, thanks for sending the screws, and sorry for mis-spelling your surname!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 19 April, 2020, 07:05:34 PM

Just to complete the earlier discussion on scrapers/weatherstrips.  I took a close look at my old top-of-door pads which still have the internal scrapers attached.  I had thought they were glued in place, but on closer examination I found the very small screw heads hidden in the fur, though I had to cut away the fur to find them.  With liberal applications of WD40 I was able to remove them for reuse.  They are 6mm long overall and the heads are 3.5mm diameter.  There are 6 each side.

The second photo below shows one of the pads inverted above the top edge of a door in order to show the square cutouts that accommodate the ends of the screws projecting into the part of the pads that hook over the top of the doors.   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 20 April, 2020, 07:21:01 PM

A pleasant diversion today while I await the arrival of hardware that I need to continue fitting door seals and trim.  I spruced up my handbrake lever cover using the excellent instructions provided by Keven Baines on the forum last year. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: D5177_55A on 21 April, 2020, 03:04:05 PM
For tiny screws, I normally use:

http://www.modelfixings.co.uk/self_tapping_screws.htm#Brass%20countersunk%20wood%20screws


Stephen


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 21 April, 2020, 03:27:55 PM
For the Fulvia gutter trim they are stainless and very small self tappers with thread up to the shoulder. Some are countersunk, some are dome/raised depending what came out...


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 21 April, 2020, 04:40:01 PM

Thanks for the link Stephen.

Thanks Tim, thatís what I suspected. As said earlier, the dome headed screws on my car had been replaced with rivets, and it looks like the holes were drilled larger. As a consequence, any screws that Iíve tried have been so large in diameter to fit the holes that the heads protruded too far into the channel that the large section trim fits in. Iíve therefore used 2.4mm rivets. I fitted the first side today, and lightly went over the top of each rivet with a grinding wheel on my Dremel to get a smooth finish.

That thick trim section that the door window glass sits against looks like it will be difficult to fit. It has to be pushed into the channel that is fitted next to the gutter trim. Does anybody have any tips on how to locate it?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 22 April, 2020, 07:01:46 PM

In between other jobs Iím working my way around the electrical system.  Steep learning curve as itís all new to me, but Iím enjoying it.  Iíve traced all wires between the dashboard area and rear of car and all seem sound. Iíll do continuity checks next.

A few questions that I could do with some help on are:

1) My car came bumper-less, with number plate lights fastened to the rear panel.  Iím fitting bumpers so could anybody tell me how the wires are routed from the rear light units to the number plate lights in the bumper - i.e what route do the wires take? I know that the left number plate light gets its power from the left rear light, and the other one from the right.   My rear valance is new so there are no witness holes to guide me!

Also, how should the number plate lights be earthed?

2) Thereís a Ford flasher unit hanging down under the dashboard - see picture.  I presume itís activated by one of the pull switches on the dash, and performs the emergency flashing that I assume wasnít fitted to the car when new.  Iíll trace the wires tomorrow.  My question is whether this is a satisfactory way to achieve flashing functionality on a Fulvia.

3) With regard to wire gauges I see that there are at least four different gauges used on the car.  I can see wires annotated with 4, 2.5, 2 and 1.5 on the wiring diagram.  Are these diameters in millimetres, with unmarked wires being 1mm perhaps?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 22 April, 2020, 07:55:21 PM
Norm, the rear number plate lights (black and yellow wires) come under the rear bumper via a hole near the rear stainless trim, this is in the centre of lower panel, they feed down from the rear boot panel below the lock. Iíll send some photos tomorrow, these connect to the rear light clusters via the white multi plug units.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 22 April, 2020, 08:11:47 PM
If the hazard lights work with that relay then leave it as is? Except the installation looks horrendous. There are bare live connectors visible so you'd need to find a relay holder and the proper connectors with a locking tab to secure them in the holder. I'd also be checking the other ends of the cables to see how they're connected in to the Lancia loom in case that's been botched too..

Sorry about the previous reply for the number plate lights, sounds like you may have to drill that pristine panel. If there's no hole yet use a sharp step drill, paint the exposed steel and use a grommet..

Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 22 April, 2020, 08:36:54 PM

Neil - thanks for that information.  The photo you mentioned would be much appreciated.  From the wiring diagram it looks like the left number plate light is fed by a white wire from the left rear light cluster, and the right by a white and black wire from the boot light, which in turn is fed by a white and black wire from the right rear light cluster.   The two black earth wires presumably are fastened to the boot surface.  I seem to recall an earthing point on the central vertical strengthening beam at the rear of the boot (just below the boot lock).

Guy - a quick look on Amazon and Ebay shows only large relay holders/boxes that accommodate 6 or more relays.  Any suggestions for a source of a small one that holds just one relay?  As you suggest, I plan to carefully inspect where the flasher is wired into the loom.  There seems to be a more than a few bodges - and I've identified four or five wires that hang loose and are not connected to anything!  Will need to investigate these.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 22 April, 2020, 08:50:03 PM
Drop by anytime Norm - I'll dig one out and put it on the gatepost with a cuppa! Social distancing and all that!
Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 23 April, 2020, 12:04:51 PM
Thanks Guy - I'll give you a call.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 23 April, 2020, 12:20:11 PM
Some more questions about my electrics, related to the earlier flasher/relay discussion.  There's a photo below, and a sketch with letters that I'll refer to.

A - The flasher unit (Relay), a Ford product, badly connected!
B - The flasher is earthed via a black wire to the bracket holding device B.  What is this device?  It is not connected to anything.
C - What is bracket C for?  It has 2 red wires coming from it that disappear into the loom behind the instrument panel. Looks like something should be there.
D - The red wire from the flasher has been lengthened using a female spade connector, then disappears into the main loom.
E - The white wire from the flasher routes via the red junction block to the stalk at right of steering column.
F - Note that there are three wires hanging down on left of picture that are not connected: a double black and a white.

There are other disconnected wires the other side of the steering column that I'll have to investigate.  Non-standard things done by the previous owner include: fitting a Trip Master to the dashboard, electronic ignition, and an electric Facet fuel pump.

So, in summary, can anybody tell me what device B is, and whether there should be anything installed at bracket C, both of which are on the bulkhead at the top of the driver footwell?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 23 April, 2020, 05:06:00 PM
C looks like a flasher unit to me but I'm no Fulvia expert. The other bracket looks like one found on the Beta, for an accessory rechargeable torch?

Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 23 April, 2020, 05:50:52 PM
C is the plug in torch accessory socket


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 23 April, 2020, 08:13:30 PM
Hi Norm, B is a Flasher relay, ( probably replaced by the Ford unit to work Hazards)  C is a live socket for a rechargeable torch I think which has been a topic before. D is a live to power the Ford flasher unit and I would think the white is the feed from the flasher switch to operate the unit and Black wires are usually earths.  Reds are normally live feeds and Whites are usually Ignition fed . I have started on my 1600 HF restoration and will confirm tomorrow.  Relay sockets, connectors, wiring etc all available from " Vehicle Wiring Products" Ilkeston, Derbyshire.
Hope that helps.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 23 April, 2020, 09:00:18 PM

Thanks John.  So would the original only have handled basic turn-signal flashing as opposed to separate operation of emergency hazard flashing?  I can't seem to find the original relay in the wiring diagram!

Interestingly, I have two wiring diagrams, one is titled "Coupe Wiring Diagram", and the other is titled "Coupe Wiring Diagram (on cars intended for countries where the fitting of emergency signalling is required)".  My car seems to match up with the former.   



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 24 April, 2020, 07:49:20 AM
The S2 Fulvia coupes did not have hazard flashers, this came in with the S3.
From memory the Hazard flashers on the S3 were operated from the switch on the top right of the fuse panel, this had a red ring around it as opposed to the S2 cars where this switch allowed operation of the headlamp full beam and had the amber ring like all the other switches. (UK cars only)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 24 April, 2020, 08:26:46 AM
Thank you Ade, that answers a few questions for me.  Firstly, it confirms that I'm using the correct wiring diagram.  Secondly, it points to the likelihood that the Ford flasher unit was installed to perform the same function as the original (presumed faulty/broken, as it is disconnected).  Someone has suggested the Ford unit has been installed to also provide hazard flashing - but surely that would need more than a device with 3 connectors, so I'm inclined to think I've still just got basic stalk operated indicator flashing.  Does that make sense?

I've been working my way around the wiring diagram. The flasher appears to be Number 64, labelled "Direction Indicator Flasher". Strangely it shows 3 terminals: L for the white wire, a + sign for the red, and a third one labelled P but with nothing attached to it. Does not show an earth, but should I assume that is where the earth attaches.  Certainly both the old OEM and the new (Ford) devices have 3 spade terminals each, and the Ford one has a black earth wire attached.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 24 April, 2020, 09:43:35 AM
Hi Norm, 3 pin flasher units earth through the fixing bolt onto the chassis. `P` is used for a warning lamp, and as the warning lamps 44 & 49 are fed from connector blocks 37 & 42 and earthed through the black wire on connector block 37, it is not used.  On the models with Hazard Flashers, the same 3 pin flasher unit is used but instead of the Red wire ( 12 volt feed) it has a Yellow wire which is the 12 volt feed from the Hazard Switch. ( 46 on the other diagram).
The Ford unit looks like Hazard unit because it appears to be 98 watt which is used handle the current from 4 x 21 watt flasher bulbs + 2 x 6 watt repeater lamps totalling 96 watts. As you say though, it may just be replacing the faulty OEM unit.

Hope that helps.
John


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 24 April, 2020, 06:53:50 PM
Thanks John - that's a huge help, and good to be talking in terms of wiring diagram reference numbers that I can recognise. 

I traced the red wire from the flasher and on my car it goes directly to the Connection Block 42.  The wiring diagram for 64, however, shows the red wire leading to 53, which is another flasher (handbrake and brake fluid low level warning), and then to 42.  Any idea why the difference?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 25 April, 2020, 09:48:32 AM
Norm, the red wires are  12 volt feed  from the Ignition switch (55) , Blue/Black wire, to fuse No. 9 and through the fuse to terminal block 42, which supplies the Instruments and flasher 53 and 64. The order is not important as long as they are all connected and supplied with 12 volts.
  Try to think of the Red wire as a continuous wire from the Fuse box but supplying different components on the route. As a point of interest, when doing continuity checks to trace wire sources and destinations, every component has to disconnected or else you will get a false reading through a component connected to the same source, if that makes sense.

John


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 25 April, 2020, 06:38:53 PM

John - that's great.  With your help I think I'm getting there.

Now I understand the way the power flows from the ignition switch through the fuse, and to the flashers in series.  I've also traced the blue/black and blue wires from the direction indicators at the corners of the car via 37 and 42 (for the indicator warning lights) to junction block 59, and thence to the stalk on the steering column.

Am I right to assume that within the stylised steering column assembly symbol there's a link (not shown) from the white wire coming in from 64 to the blue and blue/black wires that are shown near the indicator stalk?

If my understanding above is correct that is the flasher sorted.  However, for 64 to also control hazard flashing wouldn't there need to be some linkage somewhere to a separate controlling switch on the dashboard? 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 26 April, 2020, 01:41:01 PM
Norm the White wire is connected to either of those two wires by the Flasher switch internal contacts.

To operate Hazards you need to refer to the other Coupe diagram, (46) Hazards Switch and (39) Hazard Flasher unit. So you need both of those plus extra cable to connect them all. Hand brake flasher (62) normally supplies the Haz/switch pin 58 and simultaneously normal Flasher unit (63). When Hazard switch operated the supply to its pin 56 comes from the Headlamp solenoid (37) which in turn supplies the Hazard Flasher unit (39) via pin 57 which then operates the W/Lamp on pin 30b of Haz/switch.

John


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 27 April, 2020, 07:34:26 PM
Thanks John.  For the moment, and to keep things simple, I'll stay with the basic flasher functionality.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 27 April, 2020, 07:35:47 PM

I could do with some help on connectors.

The first picture below shows connections for my left rear light cluster.  Iíve checked against the wiring diagram and all seems correct.   The right rear cluster, however, has been connected without the use of a junction block - see second picture.  Three of the connectors are crimped-on insulated, and the fourth is a bullet type connector.  I have a spare 4-way junction block (picture 3) so would like to re-do the connections to match the left side.   The junction block that I have has got correct Fulvia connectors in it, and Iíve figured out how to release the male spade connectors by pushing in the locking clip with a small screwdriver.  I canít see how to remove the female connectors though.  Is there some trick to this?

My next question is where to buy the correct type of connector.  I canít seem to find them on-line, and Iím not sure what spec to be looking for.  I bought some 6mm wide ones but they seem much lighter gauge - silver finish, and maybe 0.4mm thick rathe than the approximately 0.7mm of the original gold coloured connectors, and they donít have the locking fixture. See picture 5.  I assume that using the correct thickness is important.   Also, these are the type without integrated insulation covers so they canít be crimped with my crimping tool, (picture 4), which seems to be only suitable for insulation-on connectors. 

Should I forget the junction block approach and standardise on male to female connectors of the insulation-on variety?

Any pointers would be appreciated.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 27 April, 2020, 08:43:20 PM
Nooooo! Get back to the original connector blocks Norm!! It will allow you to disconnect them easily and reconnect without having to go back to the wiring diagram. Disconnecting the female connector from the block (picture 3) requires a jewellers screwdriver pushed into the slot in the mating face whilst holding the block between your thumb and forefinger and pulling on the cable gently. The preinsulated type connectors need binning. Total botch job!

You can get the connector blocks, male and female terminals from Vehicle Wiring Products. They'll also sell you a decent crimp tool!

https://www.vehiclewiringproducts.co.uk

Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 27 April, 2020, 08:56:47 PM
Decent crimp tool. Yell if you want to borrow one.
https://www.vehiclewiringproducts.co.uk/c-1-home/c-51-crimp-tools/c-119-non-insulated-terminal-crimping-tools/p-269-ratchet-crimping-tool

Female terminals with locking tab
https://www.vehiclewiringproducts.co.uk/p-429-female-blade-with-latch?search=female%20blade

Male terminal with locking tab
https://www.vehiclewiringproducts.co.uk/p-430-male-blade-with-latch?search=male%20blade

Both suitable for the connector block you have.

https://www.vehiclewiringproducts.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&search=multi%20connectors if you need more!

Heatshrink to completely over the top insulating stuff!

https://www.vehiclewiringproducts.co.uk/p-606-adhesive-lined-polyolefin-heat-shrink-sleeving?search=heat%20shrink&page=2

And solder just to make sure the connection is perfect!

https://www.vehiclewiringproducts.co.uk/p-941-multicore-solder?search=solder

Guy







Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 27 April, 2020, 09:37:54 PM

Brilliant - thanks Guy.  I've ordered a batch of the male and female terminals, some ring terminals and some extra blocks.  I'll take you up on the loan of the crimping tool if you're sure that's ok.  I'll call by this week. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 27 April, 2020, 10:07:45 PM
No worries Norm - I'll dig out a relay holder too! See you soon. I'm working from home this week so just give me a call anytime!

Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 May, 2020, 06:31:55 PM
Iíve fitted the radiator.  In fact I fitted it twice.  Got it installed and connected up all the hoses and then realised Iíd not fitted the two M5 captive nuts that take two of the three screws that hold the fan.  Tried installing them with the radiator in situ but impossible! So out it came, captive nuts fitted, and back in again.  

I installed the two horns, and connected most of the mid-engine-bay wiring to the starter motor, alternator and various ancillaries.

Iíve tracked all the wiring down the passenger side of the engine bay, largely lighting related, and checked everything against the wiring diagram.  Mostly straightforward, but I need to understand the deviations from the wiring diagram caused by the car being RHD with UK headlamp configuration.

The driver side of the engine bay is more complicated, with a bunch of relays and other devices - see third picture to sort out.  Iíve worked out from the wiring diagram that the central black device is the voltage regulator, with all 3 wires going to the alternator.  Iíll need to trace the other wires to work out what the other devices are: some sort of relays/solenoids I assume, with more of what looks like non-standard additions, especially the one with the blade fuse!.

Lots of dodgy looking connections, but Iíve bought connectors and junction blocks from Wiring Products, the company recommended by John and Guy.  Theyíre service is impressive, with very fast delivery.  They made up a couple of correct length battery cables for me as well.

So, armed with the crimping tool kindly loaned by Guy, Iíll start making all the engine bay connections good tomorrow, and continue with the detective work.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 02 May, 2020, 06:46:32 AM
The voltage regulator is an aftermarket item, difficult to say if it is an electronic type (probably yes). Advisable to carry a spare one when planning a long trip. Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 02 May, 2020, 07:09:12 AM
Thanks Andrea. I thought it was original as it's exactly the same as one on another owner's car - see photo.  Is that just a coincidence then?

What would be the symptoms of a voltage regulator failing, would the battery stop charging?  

Any idea what the other 3 devices are? From the TAV picture it looks like 2 of them may be solenoid switches for radiator fan and main beams and horns.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 02 May, 2020, 10:17:30 AM
The battery may stop charging due to a number of things.

1. Alternator diode pack defective
2. Alternator brushes  worn
3. Alternator commutator dirty/worn
4. Regulator faulty
5. Fan belt loose!

Have you had your alternator checked over?



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 02 May, 2020, 10:53:04 AM
Tim - how would you go about getting it checked over? Just to clarify, I have no reason to believe thereís a problem with it.  My question was related to Andreaís comment about the voltage regulator.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 02 May, 2020, 12:17:03 PM
Tim - how would you go about getting it checked over?
Old school auto electrician. And they can check the regulator at the same time. However you can do simple things. Spin the alternator to check bearings. Undo the brushes (2 nylon blocks) to check they have not worn out. Then you can peer in and see the commutator - should be shiny copper.... But I guess in your case just wait till you can fire up the engine then measure the voltage across the battery with the engine running - beyond idle it should be c14v...


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 02 May, 2020, 12:35:11 PM

Thanks Tim.  I think I'll do the latter.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 02 May, 2020, 12:40:28 PM
The voltage regulator and first of the solenoid switches are cleaned up and ready to reinstall.  The backing plate attaches via bolts through the driver side wheel arch.

One question about the voltage regulator is how should it be earthed?  The TAV (item 12) shows a separate earth, but I know that sometimes means that an item is earthed via its housing, but in this case the housing is plastic.  Should I take an earth from the black terminal?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 02 May, 2020, 02:27:28 PM
Norman do you have any sort of digital or analoque electric meter the resistance on it (ohms)? If not buy one!

Anyway with meter switched to ohms you will probably most likely find your central black is already connected to its chassis (backplate). If so you have nothing else to do but soundly mount that plate to you car chassis (metal to metal).


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 02 May, 2020, 03:48:15 PM

So Tim, I think youíre saying that I donít need to be concerned that the wiring diagram shows a separate earth. At the moment the central black terminal is not connected to the backplate, but Iíll modify the mounting so that it is.

Yes, I do have a good quality multimeter but Iím still learning how to use it. The instructions take some deciphering - especially for a novice like me!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 02 May, 2020, 04:01:07 PM
I am not sure if the alternator is a Ducellier one (often found in most coupes) or a Bosch one (more often found in berlinas and early S2 coupes). Each type had its original regulator of mechanical type (not interchangeable), i.e. with moving contacts liable to wear. This is why it was a common practice to fit an electronic regulator: for the Bosch alternator the correct part was fitted directly to the back of the alternator. Usually for the Ducellier alternator, the unit (from various manufacturers) was fitted where the original regulator was located and it does need an earth, often where the lights are earthed. The alternator also needs a very good earth, ideally better than the rather slim wire provided by the factory.

Assuming that the alternator has a good belt that is not slipping on a worn pulley groove, one should use a voltmeter to measure voltage across the battery terminals (engine switched off) and then with engine idling, and finally at about 3500 revs. The voltage should be under 13 V, 13.3-4 V when idling, and near 14 at high revs. It should be borne in mind that on a 12 V system each battery cell has 2.1 V and thus with 6 of them in any battery, the baseline voltage is 12.6. If the battery reading at rest is lower, then the system is not OK (or the battery low on charge). A dysfunctional regulator would lead to a dead battery or boil it! The units fixed  near the regulators are relays for the lights. Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 02 May, 2020, 04:51:06 PM
I am not sure if the alternator is a Ducellier one (often found in most coupes) or a Bosch one (more often found in berlinas and early S2 coupes). Each type had its original regulator of mechanical type (not interchangeable), i.e. with moving contacts liable to wear. This is why it was a common practice to fit an electronic regulator: for the Bosch alternator the correct part was fitted directly to the back of the alternator. Usually for the Ducellier alternator, the unit (from various manufacturers) was fitted where the original regulator was located and it does need an earth, often where the lights are earthed. The alternator also needs a very good earth, ideally better than the rather slim wire provided by the factory.

Assuming that the alternator has a good belt that is not slipping on a worn pulley groove, one should use a voltmeter to measure voltage across the battery terminals (engine switched off) and then with engine idling, and finally at about 3500 revs. The voltage should be under 13 V, 13.3-4 V when idling, and near 14 at high revs. It should be borne in mind that on a 12 V system each battery cell has 2.1 V and thus with 6 of them in any battery, the baseline voltage is 12.6. If the battery reading at rest is lower, then the system is not OK (or the battery low on charge). A dysfunctional regulator would lead to a dead battery or boil it! The units fixed  near the regulators are relays for the lights. Andrea
Andrea I think Norman's alternator is a Ducellier. I have this on my 1600HF and a non Ducellier electronic regulator . I have the Bosch on my Sport 1600. This has the original regulator but I am looking to replace with an all in one brush and regulator unit There seem to be 1000 different models. Do you have a part number for the Bosch (0.120.300.518) for this brush/regulator?

One curious thing about the Ducellier is the shaft is 12mm whereas the Bosch is the more normal 14mm. I had a Ducellier rebuilt about 14 years ago and the Auto-electrician (since retired) said it was just as well the rotor was in good condition because he could not find a replacement.....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 02 May, 2020, 05:00:59 PM

Thank you for that information Andrea.  Iíll certainly do the checks that you suggest once the engine is running again.

Yes, the alternator is a Ducellier.  There is no earth wire from it other than the wire to the voltage regulator, so presumably that is how it is earthed? Reference your comment about the earth wire being slim, are you suggesting I should add a heftier earth cable from the same terminal on the alternator to earth on the chassis somewhere?

Regarding the three switches/relays adjacent to the voltage regulator on my original photograph, Iíve figured out what they all are by tracking the wires and by comparing them to the wiring diagram.  The one on the left with the blade fuse controls the inner headlamps; the small black one third from left is the horns solenoid switch; and the silver one on the right is the coolant solenoid switch.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 02 May, 2020, 06:25:14 PM
Tim, the original electronic regulator made by Bosch is actually fitted to two of my Fulvias. I fear you will have to be patient as I go through my spares to find out the part number (whcih is obsolete by now but if you are lucky you might source it in Ebay).

Thomas, again I am quoting from memory but I think to remember that the Ducellier alternator has an earth wire from the spade terminal at the top of the alternator. This is not easily visible and often disturbed by inexperienced mechanics. Choose a good earth point to connect it (recall that the alternator is fixed to rubber bushes, thus insulated). Just to repeat what I have mentioned before: the earth terminal from the (-) pole of battery to the gearbox must be clean and gently filed back to bright metal as this is the earth for the whole car.

I suggest to inspect carefully that fuse holder feeding the rad fan motor (which should also be correctly earthed). The fuse might look OK but the internal contact are often dodgy to account for blown head gaskets, overheating etc. If your rewired system does not have a fuse, my advice is to fit one in line as the fan motor gives strong electrical transients when it comes on (interesting to watch the drop in engine revs when it happens).

Finally, on S2 cars it is not unusual to see the warning light for the charging system glowing slightly especially at night. This is not something to worry about because the wire to the dashboard is really too thin (courtesy of the Fiat economy strategy). Thus, one can ignore it, or fit a thicker wire, or as shown by the Lancia technical note, to fit a higher amp bulb to the warning light. Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 02 May, 2020, 06:57:12 PM

Thanks Andrea - lots of useful information there.

I checked the alternator again. The wire from the hard to reach spade terminal at the top, which you mentioned, is in fact the green wire to the voltage regulator.  The black wire to the voltage regulator is the only thing I can see as a possible earth.  If that is the case, do you suggest I take an additional heftier earth from there to somewhere on the chassis?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 02 May, 2020, 07:01:51 PM
Basically the alternator in your case is earthed through the regulator, not ideal but OK if the regulator earth is really very good. You should check the resistance value (in ohms) between the regulator earth and the gearbox earth. This should be as low as possible, Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 03 May, 2020, 01:33:36 PM
The mysterious (to me at least) blade-fuse relay seems to have been installed to ensure adequate voltage to the inner headlamps.  The original green (R) and green/black (L) wires to these lamps have been disconnected.  The relay takes power via a 2.5mm yellow cable from the starter motor and when switched routes it to 2.5mm red wires running to both inner headlamps.  Thereís a 20 amp blade fuse in the relay.

The relay is activated by a yellow wire from a pull-push switch with amber ring to the right of the air outlet grille at the top of the console.  The switch is linked via a 2mm red wire to Fuse #7, so I think that means itís permanently live.

I will get a connecting block for the relay, or replace it if I canít find a block to fit.

Todayís question is not electrical related:  how are the connectors on the servo vacuum hose removed (second picture) and is there any reason why the hose would be in two sections with a short connector (other than to maybe repair a break/leak)?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 03 May, 2020, 02:06:12 PM
Norman

Looks like that relay could have powered some additional spot lights?? That panel switch was for UK market when later cars had H4 outer headlamps with both main and dipped. The inner lights as driving lights where separately switched. It is not uncommon to modify the wiring to trigger the the inner lights to come on when you have main beam. and the additional relay was to not overload the Lancia main beam relay

The servo hose is a vacuum hose so stronger than water pipe. The thing in the middle is probably a non return valve. - you need to check if it is still working....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 03 May, 2020, 02:18:56 PM
Thanks Tim.  The relay was definitely connected to the inner headlamps, and the original wiring to them was disconnected.

I'll check the hose if I can figure out how, but first I have to remove it.  Do you know how those hose connectors undo?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 03 May, 2020, 02:25:05 PM
Hose connectors need patience to come undone.

Tim, unfortunately going through my spares I could only find an aftermarket electronic regulator for the Bosch system. Pictures attached. Obviously the unit has to be fitted to the inner wing. BTW, my electronic regulators were fitted more than 20 y ago and never gave any problem. Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 03 May, 2020, 03:40:39 PM
Re hose connectors - I found the easiest way is to back them off half a turn with a pair of pliers (or screwdriver in the loop) - I made a couple of 1/4" sockets to do this
Then pull the pin up and out of the connector ie perpendicular to to the bands and along the length of the pipe. Sometimes you may need to use a screwdriver blade to very carefully open the two halves of the pin (just like a split-pin)

A bit of WD40 may also help if they are rusted

To re-use them, straighten out the band, refit the pin and rethread the band - round once and then thread through the split-pin and rotate ...


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 03 May, 2020, 04:41:16 PM
I found a 3/8 socket fitted nicely to undo the hose clamps. It's easier than getting a screwdriver in the loop or gripping with pliers.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 03 May, 2020, 05:38:31 PM

Brilliant, worked a treat! Thank you Simon and Frank.  I think I could have stared at that fitting all day and not figured out how to release it.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 03 May, 2020, 05:57:23 PM

A couple more questions:  Do the numbers on the wires in the wiring diagram, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 4, 6 represent the squared area of the metal cores?  And secondly, I've read somewhere about the application of a spray to electrical connections to waterproof them.  Is that a good idea, and is there a recommended product?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 03 May, 2020, 06:35:51 PM
If you need any more relay holders Norm.... Got a shedload!

Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 06 May, 2020, 06:56:44 PM
Engine bay electrical reconnections are now complete. Bodged wiring has all been replaced, and new green wire runs have replaced the poorly attached red wires for the inner headlamps.  New junction blocks have replaced many the poorly executed wiring connections.

Before I start on the dashboard wiring, where I have about half a dozen unconnected wires to investigate, I thought Iíd install the heater hoses and components.  I first took a close look at the dashboard heater controls, armed with Simonís thread on refurbishing the levers, expecting to have to dismantle the mechanism, but discovered that my levers and operating mechanism to be in good condition.  A good cleaning and some spray grease down the cable sheaths has the middle and lower levers and the flaps that they operate all working smoothly.  

The top lever moves freely, but there was clearly something amiss with the linkage rods to the left of the console. The left hand rod shown in the first picture is not connected at its top end, and thereís nothing in place to connect it to the top pivoting arm.  Can anybody confirm that the top of this rod should connect to that arm?  I would have expected the top of the rod to have a short length bent at right angles, and a white plastic/nylon fitting to hold it in place in a hole in the top lever.  That would be consistent with the way the other rod ends are connected.  You can see from picture 2 that the rod in my car is straight at the top end, as though the end has snapped off.  Iím guessing a replacement rod and fitting will be hard to find.

The second problem I encountered was that the water valve is seized solid.  I was able to pull the plunger arm out a centimetre or so with quite a lot of force.  Iíve got it soaked with WD40 overnight but it looks like a replacement will be needed.  There were hard deposits on one of the inlet tubes, so maybe a de-scaler of some sort would be worth trying.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 07 May, 2020, 09:03:11 PM

I installed the heater hoses today, though they are not yet connected in the passenger footwell as Iím still trying to free up the heater valve per yesterdayís post.  Iím keen to get answers to my questions about the heater connecting rods if anyone can help.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Paul Johnson on 08 May, 2020, 05:17:24 AM
Norm,
Have you read my ďHello, new to the forum & heater fixĒ thread I posted last month? It describes my (successful) dealings with the heating system in my Fulvia. The pipes up to and including the water valve were severely caked up with solidified radiator water/antifreeze highly likely as a result of this part of the system never been used- I suspect that the car was only used intermittently and then never when the weather required the use of the heater. As a consequence the water never circulated around the heater matrix and it slowly solidified. I disassembled the whole system and once out of the car, the valve popped open once de-caked using water only. It has worked perfectly since. I was mostly concerned about leaks thereafter as the gasket between the valve and the bulkhead was unusable after disassembly. However some liquid gasket goob did the trick!
In so far as your heater cables and linkages, Iím sorry, but I havenít been brave enough to go under the dash to look at mine which do need attention as the top temperature slide control is very stiff.
Good luck- a lovely job you are doing there.
Paul


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 May, 2020, 05:30:58 AM
Hi Paul - yes I had read your post and was hoping that my valve would pop open like yours, but it hasnít!  It will move but only with more force applied than I think the complex linkage mechanism would be able to handle.  Iíve had it soaking in a lemon juice solution over night.  I may have to drill out the fastening in the attached lever arm as that was heavily rusted and may be contributing to the stiffness.

With regard to my question about the linkage rod, that is in the area beside the glovebox high up in the passenger footwell. Iím hoping somebody can help me with that.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 08 May, 2020, 07:14:15 AM
Hi Paul - yes I had read your post and was hoping that my valve would pop open like yours, but it hasnít!  It will move but only with more force applied than I think the complex linkage mechanism would be able to handle.  Iíve had it soaking in a lemon juice solution over night.  I may have to drill out the fastening in the attached lever arm as that was heavily rusted and may be contributing to the stiffness.

With regard to my question about the linkage rod, that is in the area beside the glovebox high up in the passenger footwell. Iím hoping somebody can help me with that.

Norman do you have the dash top off. Reason for asking is that the levers on the facia operate bowden cables which in turn operate the rods you mention. When a valve stops working the red lever (water valve regulator) bends the bowden cable and it can never operate the valve successfully again as the cable will always bend rather than push. The mech advantage of the lever onto the valve operation is very poor, and the cable bends at the slightest stiffness of the valve. When new no problem..... (think probably a new valve is an option going forward if they were not so expensive...). The other levers seem to cope. So you need to check the bowden cable... then with dashtop off you should see all the connection...


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 May, 2020, 07:35:53 AM
Hi Tim - yes, the dash top is off and the mechanism in its entirety is clear to see. The operating lever in the dash panel works fine, and the bowden cable seems to work correctly.  I suspect that the order of events was that the valve jammed at some stage and excessive force was used to try to push the lever to the left causing the rod (which I talked about above) to snap at its top end.  That's why I'm trying to get confirmation that the rod (the left hand one in the first picture, that links to the valve) should in fact be connected to the top lever arm via a bent over portion and a white nylon clip.

Here's a picture of the valve end of that rod.  I suspect that the top end should have the same bend, and plastic/nylon fitting, or is it attached in some other way?  

I've found replacement valves on a couple of supplier's websites for about 90 euros so that is the way forward if mine does not free up.  But not worth pursuing if I can't resolve the question of how the control rod fastens.  And then I need to find a replacement and fitting!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 May, 2020, 10:21:39 AM

An update.  The overnight soak in lemon juice solution did the trick and the valve is now moving freely.  However, testing it with water poured in, and not under pressure, the valve still allows about ten percent of the water through when closed.  It may be that an internal seal has hardened, so I'm now soaking it in WD40 and will try again later.  I may still need a new valve.

Now to the operating rod for the top lever. 

The pair of pictures below shows the two ends.  I had suspected that both ends should have the right angle bend, but a close look at the straight end shows no obvious signs of breakage.  So the question remains: how was that rod connected at the top end to the operating lever?  The final picture below shows the end of that lever (against the piece of white card), with a hole where the fitting must have been attached.  It is right at the corner where the base of the glove compartment meets the rear upright portion.  It should be visible from the footwell with the aid of a torch. Could somebody kindly take a look at their car for me and tell me what sort of connection for the rod is there.  It would be much appreciated. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 08 May, 2020, 10:22:35 AM
I have never seen a heater valve rescued from corrosion/heavy scaling. A new one must operate very smoothly (possibly the same as in Beta coupe). As for the rod fixing, I sorted mine so long ago that I don't remember now (old age?) but I don't recall it too difficult, Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 May, 2020, 10:47:05 AM

Thanks Andrea. It doesnít look like it will be a difficult job. I just donít know what the fitting looks like!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: GeoffJohnson on 08 May, 2020, 11:25:49 AM
Hi Kevin
I think this is what you want.

Geoff Johnson


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 08 May, 2020, 11:46:29 AM
Hi Norm photo of my valve.
John


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 May, 2020, 12:13:41 PM

Brilliant, thanks chaps! Geoffís picture shows the white nylon/plastic clip. Canít quite make out how itís connected but from the position of it it looks like the rod hooks into the hole in the lever. Johnís picture clearly shows the angled end to the rod, confirming that mine must have snapped off. But oddly, the end of the rod is not shown hooked into the hole in the operating lever!

If at some stage you could measure the overall length of the rod, John, that would be useful. Yours looks more accessible than Geoffís.

Now that I know how itís supposed to look I can turn my attention to how to find an intact rod and the white fitting. Iíll ask around the people who I know to be breaking cars as this isnít the sort of thing that the usual parts suppliers would carry. Any suggestions welcome.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 08 May, 2020, 12:23:10 PM
The upper end of the rod goes into the upper lever and the clip (fiddly to put on) holds it in place (the rod end goes through the clip and lever). Weird your rod has such a clean fracture.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 08 May, 2020, 12:31:34 PM
Norm , your rod is upside, the 90 degree end goes to the lever secured with a nylon clip. The straight end goes the valve and is secured with a solderless nipple as you can see in my photo. Obviously yours is missing and for some reason the rod has been reversed.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 08 May, 2020, 12:36:09 PM
I forgot to mention, if you do need to replace the cables, you require PIANO WIRE NOT Bowden cable.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 May, 2020, 12:38:38 PM

Great - thanks John.  I missed the nipple at the lower end.  It will make a solution much easier to find, and answers the conundrum about the phantom clean fracture.  I'm sure I can rig something up.   Thanks for pointing it out!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: GeoffJohnson on 08 May, 2020, 12:43:41 PM
Hi Kevin
i think you have the rod the wrong way round. The bent end with the plastic clip goes to the top. The straight end (not broken) fits to the valve with a connector that you are missing. It is like a bolt with a hole through it for the rod to pass through and clamped into position with a nut. this allows for adjustment. Hope this helps

Geoff johnson


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 May, 2020, 12:48:47 PM
Thanks Geoff - I was so focussed on the top of the rod that I failed to notice the bottom end on your picture or John's!  (It's Norm by the way, not Kevin!!)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 08 May, 2020, 12:51:59 PM
Problem solved!!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 08 May, 2020, 01:30:03 PM
Hi Norm, missing parts.
John


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: GeoffJohnson on 08 May, 2020, 02:02:51 PM
Sorry Norm
I was so hung up on solving the problem I forgot to check who I was talking to! Apologies to you and Kevin.

Geoff


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 May, 2020, 03:14:05 PM

Geoff - no problem!!

John - I sent you a pm.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 May, 2020, 06:02:12 PM
Two steps forward and one step back over the last few days. After giving up on the heater valve and ordering a new one I did some smaller jobs in the engine bay. Reconnected the bonnet release mechanism which was disconnected when I bought the car, only for the spring to break in the safety catch so need to source a new one.

I noticed that the jubilee clip on the heater hose connection to the bottom of the radiator (attached before the rad was installed) was inaccessible after installing the radiator fan. So, in the interests of future maintenance, I pulled the fan out and reorientated the clip. I thought Iíd test the fan before refitting but could only get a few sparks at the terminals, so I now have to find out if the fan motor can be taken apart for investigation. Has anybody done that?

The replacement servo hose looks a lot more respectable than the old one which was connected at one end with a nylon tie!

After a week working mostly in the engine bay Iíll get back to door and window seals tomorrow, and Iím going to see if I can install the rear windscreen.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 11 May, 2020, 07:05:04 PM
Presumably the fan spins OK by hand. In some cases the blades rub against the frame. Did you try to connect it to a battery? These electric motors rarely go wrong, may be the brushes are worn although if the engine is OK and the cooling systemis  working fine, they are infrequently switched on and wear is small, Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 May, 2020, 07:27:14 PM

Yes Andrea, i connected it to a fully charged 12v battery.  All I got was a few sparks when I connected the positive wire to the red terminal. It spins OK by hand.   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 11 May, 2020, 07:35:12 PM
As Andrea said, connect it to a battery. It doesn


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 11 May, 2020, 07:46:14 PM
I don`t know what happened there, it disappeared before I`d finished!
 Put an Ohms meter across the 2 wires. If there is continuity the motor should be OK. Check for continuity between both wires and the casing in turn, if you have then you could have a short to earth which would cause the sparks. If no continuity across the 2 wires,  you have an open circuit, sticking brush maybe? I presume you earthed it? It doesn`t matter which way round you connect it, it will only spin the wrong way if incorrect.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 11 May, 2020, 08:53:59 PM

Yes Andrea, i connected it to a fully charged 12v battery.  All I got was a few sparks when I connected the positive wire to the red terminal. It spins OK by hand.   
Be brave and make a good contact! They do draw quite a current, and also have a bit of gyroscopic tendency leap out and chop fingers off. Good luck!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 May, 2020, 10:58:21 AM
I rigged the fan up via a tested push-pull switch so I know Iíve got good contacts. No sparks now.  The fan works intermittently. When first switched on it spun for a few seconds then stopped. Most subsequent attempts showed no response. Occasionally a slight turn. Feels like something is binding. The fan blades are free and not touching the cowling. When I disconnect and turn the fan manually it turns a few revolutions then seems to bind. Should it always spin freely when manually rotated?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: rogerelias on 12 May, 2020, 02:38:09 PM
Hi Norm. the fan should turn freely by hand with no resistance. try a little WD40 down the shaft and keep turning by hand,you may be lucky


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 12 May, 2020, 03:31:35 PM
Hi Norm
Sent you an email with a photo.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 May, 2020, 05:01:46 PM

Source of problem detected!  I disassembled the fan and found that one of the large outer magnets has become detached.  The outer rotating ring has been scraping against it and binding.  Just to be absolutely sure, I reassembled without the loose magnet and the motor spins freely.

Am I right to assume that the adhesive needed to fix the magnet back in place is not something readily available, and that I will need to get a replacement fan?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 12 May, 2020, 06:16:34 PM
Hi Norm, good work on finding the problem, could you stick it back with two pack epoxy I would think it would stick back perfectly then retest?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 12 May, 2020, 09:05:35 PM
Think I heard that failure in a heater fan. I would use superglue. Large area to get a good fix. Make sure you de grease and glue exactly as it separated and clamp two bits together.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 May, 2020, 09:23:54 PM

Thanks for the recommendation Neil.

I've not had good experience with superglue in the past Tim - maybe I've not applied it correctly.  I have had success with 2-pack epoxy though.  Do you not think that would be suitable?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: chriswgawne on 13 May, 2020, 08:04:10 AM
I have had excellent results on repairs like this using one of the Henkel 'Nural' 2 pack products. There are various types of Nural and not all variants are on sale in all EU Countries but I believe B&Q seel some and also Amazon.
Chris


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 13 May, 2020, 08:34:19 AM
Think I heard that failure in a heater fan. I would use superglue. Large area to get a good fix. Make sure you de grease and glue exactly as it separated and clamp two bits together.
I remember it was on an electric window winder. It is always worth taking these things apart as a simple fix brings them back to life again. Re epoxy JB wonder weld is probably what I would ave used but still stick (pardon the pun) by super glue if the both mating surfaces match (ie no air gaps), unless of course the original glue has failed and is or has broken away.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 13 May, 2020, 11:47:05 AM

Great news that you've found the cause, and why not attempt a repair given you can bench test and its not sooo critial for all I'm sure we could imagine ways it could set the car on fire.

---

I always used to think of superglues for when the fractured surface would refit with no gap.  However stuff like this will fill a "gap" and there's all sorts of "hacks" out there to mix with fillers like baking soda and wood dust.

https://www.yandles.co.uk/zap-a-gap-cyanoacrylate-super-glue/p4109

https://www.starbond.com/tutorials/fill-large-gaps-in-wood-using-super-glue/

---

However for that job my instinct would be epoxy...  I wonder what was used originally?



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 May, 2020, 12:38:45 PM

Thanks for the input chaps.  I couldn't find Nural in the UK so am going to use two-pack epoxy Araldite.  Will have to be a thin layer as I've got to maintain a gap between magnets and the spinning portion of the motor.  Andrew Cliffe at Omicron recommended using slow setting.

I'm fitting the rear windscreen today so will carry on with door/window seals until the epoxy arrives.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: chriswgawne on 13 May, 2020, 01:35:08 PM
Amazon sell Nural 21 and 23 in the Uk. Both are excellent products.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 May, 2020, 02:30:48 PM
I saw that Chris, but it's shipped from out of the country at a cost of £20, so ends up at £40 for one packet. I opted for regular two-pack Araldite instead, at  £5.50 and free shipping!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 May, 2020, 06:23:13 PM
I feel like I reached a milestone today by installing the rear screen.

I was keen to get the screen installed as I didnít want to fit the rear quarter lights before doing so, as I feared it would make the screen implementation harder.  And the main upper door seals could not be fitted before the rear quarter lights were installed, and then the vertical B pillar retention strip.   So I was held up on a number of tasks.

I decided against removing the seal and stainless steel trim from the glass as I was worried I wouldnít get the trim back in afterwards.  I thoroughly cleaned the seal, scraping old hardened sealant out of the grooves. I also scraped around the gaps where the seal meets the glass on both sides to get out the residual hardened sealant - see Picture 1.  I used a plastic trim removal tool with a thin edge. You can see some of the powdered sealant in the picture.  After scraping out the loose stuff, I wrapped a thin cloth around the tool and ran it along the gap to clear any residue.

As I had no suitable string, I bought some venetian blind cord and used that to tie around the groove where the seal overlaps the edge of the window aperture, overlapping the cord at the bottom and taping it to the inside of the screen.  I then applied a fairly copious amount of P80 Rubber Emulsion with a brush to the aperture edges, and inside the groove where Iíd fitted the string. Picture 2.  The solution acts as lubricant, but I understand that a soap solution works almost as well - hence this method of fitting often being called the ďsoapy string methodĒ, according to Google and YouTube.

From the outside of the car I then placed the screen in the aperture and centralised it, checking that the rubber lip on the exterior was overlapping the aperture and not tucked in anywhere.

I then got inside the car and started to pull the first of the string ends.  Not much happened, so I used the trim tool (the same one as mentioned above) to lever the rubber lip over the aperture for a couple of inches.  Once that was done I was able to pull the string very slowly across watching the rubber lip rise up and fall into place.  I worked from left to right, with my diminutive 4í11Ē wife (social distancing stand-in for beefy assistant) putting some pressure on the glass behind where the string had reached, but mainly just applying enough pressure to stop me inadvertently pushing the screen out of the aperture while I worked inside the car.

When I got to the bottom right corner I stopped and repeated the exercise with the other string easing the lip over until reaching the bottom left corner.  My intention was to then  work my way up the two sides one at a time and eventually meet in the middle at the top.   But the string wouldnít budge at the left corner for some reason, so I did the rest of the job from the bottom right corner, working my way anticlockwise, up, across and down.  Picture 3 shows the string being pulled up the right side. You can see where the upper section of lip is still behind the aperture edge.

There were a couple of times when the string felt stuck.  It may be that it was caught on the cuts or overlaps in the headliner material overlapping the aperture edge.  Rather than force it, I used the trim tool to lever an inch or two of the seal over and then found it had freed up again.  I probably had to do that 3 or 4 times, and I had to use the tool to lever in the last 8 or so inches coming down the left side - as the whole screen assembly was fairly snugly in place by then.   The optimum method is probably the one that finishes with both strings at the top centre.

I was working with my head close to the inside of the screen, and I found that quite a few times pushing my head against the glass to relieve a little bit of the pressure that my wife was manfully (womanfully?) trying to apply helped with the pulling of the string.

One other hint is to keep an eye on the end of the string that is not being pulled.  A couple of times I tied that end to the rear seat cross brace to stop me pulling it out of the groove completely from the other end!

After the screen was fully in place I cleaned off the excess lubricant, though much had by then evaporated.  Inspecting the outside of the screen revealed that the rubber lip overlapping the edge of the inserted stainless steel trim had come away at each of the top corners for about 6 or 7 inches.  Again, using the trim tool I carefully levered it into position.  See Picture 4.

One last task over the next few days is to apply some non-setting sealant in between the seal and the exterior metal of the car (not interior).  I bought  small 75ml size tubes of sealant with a thin nozzle end.  I think a full size 300ml tube with a conventional caulk gun would be just too unwieldy for such a precise task.

I know Iíve included a lot of detail, but I thought that would make the post more useful to anybody else trying this job themselves.  I searched high and low for information but the blogs and videos leave a lot to the imagination.

Now, armed with that job under my belt  should I have a go at the front windscreen?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: chriswgawne on 13 May, 2020, 06:56:40 PM
Funnily enough Norman I get my Nural  products from a 'shed' when I visit Portugal. Some varietidzare available in Italy and I thought B&Q in the UK sold one of two varieties.
Your car is really looking good by the way. Keep up the good work.
Chris


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 13 May, 2020, 07:40:11 PM
Well done on the screen fit Norm, Great Job! Car is looking really good.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 14 May, 2020, 05:23:26 PM
I cut the new rear quarter light seals and fitted the glass on the passenger side today.  Measure twice, cut once!  The new heater valve arrived so I fitted it and connected up the hoses.  Just need to find a barrel nipple for the operating lever and I can tick that job as done.

The two-pack regular Araldite arrived so I've cleaned, glued and clamped the magnet back in the radiator fan motor housing.  Fun trying to line up two surfaces lined with adhesive when one is a powerful magnet!  I'll reassemble the fan and bench test it tomorrow.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 14 May, 2020, 05:45:07 PM

Lovely to see the glass in.  Getting there !!!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 14 May, 2020, 07:01:59 PM
Good stuff Norm, you are well on your way now!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 May, 2020, 10:37:43 AM
I reattached the magnet in the Radiator Fan Motor yesterday and left it clamped over night.  I used the regular two-pack epoxy Araldite, not the rapid setting variety.  It felt quite secure today and I reassembled the motor.  It spins freely and there's no sound of anything touching inside so the clearance seems ok.  I bench tested it and it runs smoothly but I will check it periodically once the car is back on the road so that I can detect if the magnet becomes detached again.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 15 May, 2020, 10:49:41 AM
Great. If your car has not got a fan override switch it is handy to have in case the thermo relay does not cut in when in traffic... switch closes across the thermo relay terminals is the simplest implementation...


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 15 May, 2020, 10:52:59 AM
Tim, a good addition, only one wire to ground is required on the relay to override the thermostat


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 15 May, 2020, 12:57:50 PM
I cut the new rear quarter light seals and fitted the glass on the passenger side today.  Measure twice, cut once!  The new heater valve arrived so I fitted it and connected up the hoses.  Just need to find a barrel nipple for the operating lever and I can tick that job as done.

The two-pack regular Araldite arrived so I've cleaned, glued and clamped the magnet back in the radiator fan motor housing.  Fun trying to line up two surfaces lined with adhesive when one is a powerful magnet!  I'll reassemble the fan and bench test it tomorrow.
Norman,
The head lining is looking good👍
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 May, 2020, 01:11:58 PM
I'm not one hundred percent happy with it Brian, but I think I can live with it.

Neil and Tim, that bypass sounds like a good idea.  Although you describe it in language from chapter seven of the ďTeach Yourself Auto Electrics GuideĒ and Iím still on chapter two :-).  

However, now that I understand where the relay is, and broadly how it works, and am getting familiar with the wiring diagram, Iíll try to figure out tonight how to implement what youíre suggesting.  I have a spare switch on the dashboard that I can use.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 15 May, 2020, 02:27:33 PM

The other question to consider is if you can hear well enough (you) over the engine (depends) in the sort of traffic you're in (depends) to tell if its on or off.  If not perhaps a warning light somewhere? 



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Scott on 15 May, 2020, 03:19:18 PM
I have an override switch as in hot weather in stop-start traffic it was disconcerting to see the temp gauge climb and hope the fan would compensate. Knowing a going-to-get-hot situation was arising I could get in early.

Last year, doing a tour across the Alps; down into Italy etc. I did a thorough service including coolant change ... and where I also added Millers Extra Cool. This stuff has proved to be great. Even in stop-start-traffic on the Amalfi Coast on a blazing hot day the temp gauge would barely climb and hence the fan rarely came into use anyway ... override or not.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 May, 2020, 04:27:30 PM

I've never heard of that Scott.  I'll certainly consider it.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 May, 2020, 04:46:11 PM
Another phase of cavity waxing today.  Finished off the cross member and handbrake housing.  I've been using the Dinitrol products shown in the second picture.  For out of sight box sections I've first applied the RC900 rust treatment, then 2 weeks later the black 3125 Cavity Wax. I used that approach for the inside lower edges of the doors, sills and main box sections.  For the tops of the front wheel arches at the sides of the engine bay, the rear arch cavity beside the back seat, the front sides of the boot above the wheel arches, and the leading and trailing inside edges of the doors I've used the 1000 wax which is colourless.

I have a couple of electrical questions regarding in-line fuses.  There are 3 of the green in-line ceramic fuse holders in my car: for radiator fan, cigarette lighter and one in the engine bay that I'm not sure the purpose of.  Only one (rad) shows in the wiring diagram. Two of mine are broken and do not fasten properly.  If the green original ones aren't available is there any reason not to use the ones advertised as "Continental" in-line fuse holders?  They hold a ceramic fuse, but employ screw fixing for the wires.

Secondly, does anybody know the purpose of my unidentified engine bay fuse holder, as shown in third picture below?  It was connected via ring terminal to the positive battery terminal.  I've not yet been able to trace the red wire from it which disappears behind the dashboard.  There's nothing shown on my wiring diagram that's connected directly to the battery.  

 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 15 May, 2020, 05:06:04 PM
re your mystery fuse could be radio or other non factory accessory. You could repurpose it for the fan if it works. Nothing wrong with the continental fuse holders.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 15 May, 2020, 06:15:23 PM
I think I`m correct in saying that fuse is for the inner Headlamps Norm.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 May, 2020, 06:34:47 PM

I think youíre right John. Iíve just been sent an extract from the 4th edition ownerís manual and that includes reference to the 3 in-line fuses, which my 2nd edition doesnít. It refers to the fuse ďprotecting the headlampsĒ. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 15 May, 2020, 11:44:36 PM
Norman,
I have a new Kenlowe fan switch with a built in warning light.
It's new and yours if any use.
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 16 May, 2020, 07:08:30 AM
I think I`m correct in saying that fuse is for the inner Headlamps Norm.
these must be the ďdriving lightsĒ operated separately from a switch on the dash, to conform to UK standards of the day......??


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 May, 2020, 08:46:48 AM
Brian - many thanks for the switch offer.   Let me try to use the spare switch that I have in the dashboard now.  If that doesn't work out I'll get back to you.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 May, 2020, 09:01:02 AM

Tim - the issue of the mysterious third in-line fuse is intriguing.   Edition 3 text and wiring diagram show only one fuse (rad), whereas edition 4 refers to three in the text (rad, cigarette lighter and headlamps) but only shows two in the wiring diagram: rad, and cigarette lighter.

Seems strange that the red wire into the third in-line fuse holder comes directly from the battery terminal. 

My inner lights (are they what you would call driving lights?) take their power from the starter motor via a thick yellow cable. I'm thinking this may have been a mod by a former owner, as the fused relay that it employs is a non-standard item.  If that's correct, I expect to find that the red wire to the third in-line fuse is disconnected somewhere.  I'll try to trace it today. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: eog on 16 May, 2020, 09:34:36 AM
My 1972 Uk spec, RHD S2, has the same green fuse holder to the positive terminal. 
I thought that being a permanent feed, it might be for a radio Ė not the case.

I have removed the fuse and all equipment seems to work
.
If as suggested it might be for inner lights, why have an un switched feed direct from the battery?
Incidentally my car has a black ceramic fuse for the radiator fan, have not seen a third inline fuse.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 16 May, 2020, 09:38:03 AM
All wiring diagrams appear to be "continental" format with single filament outer (dipped) and single filament inner (main beam). I think the later UK cars had an H4 outer with both dipped and main in same unit (making the original RHD carello OEM headlamp unit a unicorn). On the later UK cars the inners were operated by a switch on the dash as additional driving lights (useless idea as they blinded on coming traffic before the driver could switch them off). A lot of folk nowadays use an additional relay triggered from the main beam (take you pick where) and switch a (fused) supply through to the inner lights so on main beam all 4 lights come on. This is possibly where your yellow from the starter motor comes from.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 May, 2020, 12:32:45 PM
Hi Tim - my car has the twin filament outers.  That would explain why I have 3 connectors plus earth to each outer bowl, whereas the wiring diagram shows just two plus earth.  I'll look at doing as you've suggested with the inners linked to the outer main beam.

A few things are coming into focus now.  That mysterious green in-line fused red wire from the battery positive terminal is for the inner headlight circuit.  I found it in a later (4th edition owner's manual).   However, It routes to a relay just under the dashboard that isn't shown on that wiring diagram.  I've discovered that the relay is an Inner Beam Main Solenoid as fitted to Series 3 cars.  Maybe that change was a pull ahead on late model S2s like mine, as it looks like original equipment.  Of course it's not in use on my car as it's been superseded by the blade-fused relay I talked about earlier in this thread. Also explains my yellow wire from the starter motor.  That is used in place of the power feed directly from the battery.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 17 May, 2020, 12:38:17 PM
You have choices. Reinstall the factory lashup or take a feed from the main beam circuit to the new relay....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 17 May, 2020, 01:02:37 PM
Wire the inner lamps to be triggered by the main filament on the outer lamps via a relay under the wing and new fused supply from the battery, less clutter on the dash.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 May, 2020, 03:48:21 PM

Tim/Neil - presumably I can just re-purpose the blade-fused relay that I described earlier. At the moment it controls the inner headlights from a switch on the dashboard. It gets its power from a heavy gauge yellow cable from the starter motor, and feeds to a heavy gauge wire running to the inner headlamps.  It has a 20 amp blade fuse.

If I understand you both correctly, I would remove the existing wire that runs to the relay from the dashboard switch (freeing the switch up to be used for some other purpose).  I would replace it with a spur wire from the main beam wire that runs to the outer headlamp (cut the wire and put in 2:1 connector) and connect that spur wire to terminal 86 (input to the relay's solenoid coil).  Surely everything else would stay the same.  When the main beam circuit is activated, the relay will pass through the power from the heavy gauge yellow wire from the starter motor to the heavy gauge wire running to the inner headlights. Does that sound right?



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 17 May, 2020, 04:32:30 PM
sounds ok but draw out a schematic that you are happy with and makes sense to you!!!!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 18 May, 2020, 07:13:31 AM
...and to all of us, Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 18 May, 2020, 09:40:06 AM
Hi Norm, your wiring description sounds correct. Just to clarify.....

Relay pins.
30....12 volt fused feed from starter motor.
87.... feed to inner lamps.
85.... earth to relay bracket fixing screw
86....feed from main beam circuit to operate relay.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 May, 2020, 10:36:41 AM
That's great John, it confirms what I've got.

For Tim and Andrea's benefit here's the before and after sketches.

My only open question is what gauge should the wires be that take power into and out of the relay?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 18 May, 2020, 01:27:58 PM
Norm, 1.5mm2 cable is sufficient as it`s only switching the relay solenoid, very low current.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 May, 2020, 05:01:14 PM
Fitted the door and window seals on the passenger side. The thick window seal that stretches from base of the A pillar to the base of the B pillar is a tough one to fit into the channel.  

I'd like to see how well the door fits before doing the driver side, as I may need to reposition the gutter rail and vertical channel on the B pillar.  I hope not, as they are riveted in place on my car and I've already had to drill the rivets out once already when I originally stripped the car and don't relish doing it again!

Next challenge is fitting the door while in lockdown and with only my wife to assist.  It occurred to me that the simple jigs I built for assembling the doors could be use as the basis of a rolling jig.  So four lengths of 2x4, some bolts and 4 castors later and I have something that I think will work.  The door sits about 4 cm lower than it needs to for fitting so that I can put small pieces of padded wood under the bottom to align the hinges.

I will get my wife to help hold the door in vertical position while I fasten the hinges but the jig means we won't have to manage the weight of the door.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 19 May, 2020, 06:46:27 PM

I finished off the passenger side engine bay electrics today, and located the bundle of wires using the correct straps plugged into the bonnet gutter.  Some more work left to do on the driver side: installing an override for the radiator fan motor, upgrading to hazard flashers, and linking inner lamps to outer main beam.

While trying to identify the 9 loose wires hanging down from the dashboard I discovered that the flasher unit for the handbrake and low brake fluid level is missing. It's item 53 on the wiring diagram.  That accounts for 5 of the wires: white, double red and double black.  I've ordered a new flasher unit and thought that fitting it would be all that needs doing. However, Guy (Mayers) stopped by today to lend me a crimping tool, at a socially safe distance of course, and spotted that my brake fluid reservoir is missing the plunger sensor from the top.  Can anybody tell me what that looks like and whether it's something that could be found at an aftermarket supplier?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 19 May, 2020, 07:15:59 PM
The plunger for the brake fluid sensor is plastcžic so it never rusts. The best way is to get a really bad 21mm brake master cylinder (at scrap price) from which it should be possible to extract the plunger, Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 19 May, 2020, 07:32:18 PM
Norm, do you know what parts you are missing, no. 8 below?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 19 May, 2020, 07:54:18 PM
Neil, I think itís just 22, but I donít have spade connectors on top of the housing or I would have realised earlier that something was missing. Iíll take a closer look tomorrow.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 19 May, 2020, 08:09:17 PM
With your hybrid wiring loom (Part S3 on an S2 body) I suspect that part of the loom shouldn't be connected or if at some point the car has had a replacement master cylinder without the internal float and connectors on the top?

Contemporary Fiats have a float arrangement integral with the filler cap, certainly the Beta did too. I don't know if the reservoir cap on your car is screw on though? Didn't look that hard today!

Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 19 May, 2020, 09:10:36 PM
Looking at the back of the reservoir behind the filler cap, it seems that there should be 2 spade terminals for the low fluid  sensing. Your reservoir looks like the normal sort, so I would expect all the internal gubbins to be there.     


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 20 May, 2020, 05:10:47 AM
I took some photos when I did the HF mastercyl , you can see the terminals and innards clearly

https://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9921.msg74884#msg74884 (https://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9921.msg74884#msg74884)

If you need any of the small allen screws holding the lid on , let me know, I bought a bucketload ....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 20 May, 2020, 07:26:08 AM
As you can see from Simonís photos his spade terminals have been held on by new screws. They are originally riveted on.

It seems you have no option but to take the plastic reservoir off. If you have not rebuilt your master cylinder this is the time to do it, and examine the bore for corrosion. This really means taking off the car. Unless you have a big sturdy vice I would advise trying to lossen the big nut at the front first.

If the master cylinder has been rebuilt then using a takeaway tray to catch the hydraulic fluid with care for any loss or splashes (this can eat traditional paint but 2k resists a bit better), you should be able to just remove the reservoir M3 cap screws. If this has not been taken off ever or for many years these screws have generally been v difficult to get out with 45 years of UK atmosphere /hydraulic fluid Corrosion... Be warned!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 20 May, 2020, 10:36:51 AM

Thanks for that input Simon and Tim.  It looks like the sensor, part 22 on the TAV, is still in place inside the reservoir.  However the two spade terminals have been removed as you can see from this early picture from when I started stripping the car, with just a small amount of metal left from each, seemingly filed. So yet another one to add to the list of missing and bodged items to be found or fixed!

Just to add insult to injury, my neighbour just balance a metal ladder near my car and it overbalanced putting a dent in my wing top. So my first journey after the rebuild will be back to the paint shop.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 20 May, 2020, 10:46:56 AM
It was the same on mine, the aluminium rivets corrode and the spades fall off. I just drilled them out and replaced with stainless screws. But as Tim says , the allen screws holding the reservoir on are often seized and break. Not the end of the world because you either drill them out or once the reservoir is off , you carefully rotate the stump back and forth with a pair of grips 

It worked for me !


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: chriswgawne on 20 May, 2020, 03:09:33 PM
That's a great shame Norman......and of course it will be the first thing you see each time you approach your car. However it could have been worse couldn't it? You could have done the damage yourself!
It looks to be coming together really well.
Is there any mechanical work to do after the bodywork side of things is finished?
Chris


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 21 May, 2020, 07:45:23 AM
Chris - very true. Nothing worse than doing damage yourself! The car had a lot of work done in the 12 months before I bought it, engine rebore and new pistons, carbs overhauled at Omicron, etc, all with receipted bills that came with the car, so Iím hoping not too much mechanical work needed. Seemed to drive ok before I started stripping it, but on reflection should probably have run it longer before starting the rebuild.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Scott on 21 May, 2020, 08:14:23 AM
Just to add insult to injury, my neighbour just balance a metal ladder near my car and it overbalanced putting a dent in my wing top. So my first journey after the rebuild will be back to the paint shop.

I'll put a suitable contribution in my swear box on your behalf.  :-X >:(


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: chriswgawne on 21 May, 2020, 08:15:27 AM
Do you have an 'on the road' again date in mind Norman? I seem to remember that before Covid you spent blocks of time away?
Chris


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 21 May, 2020, 09:31:10 AM
Thanks for doing that Scott, my swear box is full!

Chris, Iíd like to think that at current pace I can have the rebuild complete in the next couple of months. I was away in Spain for large parts of the year but Covid 19 has put paid to that for probably the rest of this year. Good to have the Fulvia project to work on.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 21 May, 2020, 01:22:38 PM
Fitted the passenger door, now need to juggle it a bit to centralise it, and lift it a few millimetres.  The rolling jig made it a fairly straightforward process to do the initial fit.

To finish the build, there are a few parts I need that I'm struggling to find.  If any of you have the proverbial box of Fulvia bits and have any of these to spare I'd be most grateful.  The things I'm missing are:

- boot-open switch
- bonnet open switch
- compression springs for door-open switches (need 2), or maybe the entire switches
- expansion spring for bonnet safety catch
- barrel nipple that fits to the heater valve lever in the passenger footwell and holds the operating rod in place
- nut and bolt that holds choke lever in position

I'll also list these in the "Spares Required" section of the forum.




Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 25 May, 2020, 09:12:11 PM

Fitted the striker, lock and handle so that I could fully close the door and check the fit.  Gaps are not bad.  Bottom right needs taking in a few millimetres but I'll leave it for now and press on with the seals on the driver side.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 27 May, 2020, 07:08:29 PM

With the passenger side door seals all now in place, and the door and rear quarter light fitted, I moved on to the driver side today. I completed the fastening of the gutter rail with small screws, and, where the screw holes had been over-drilled by the previous owner, I used small rivets.  The quarter light is now installed.  The most difficult part was getting the wide top seal into the u-shaped metal channel.  I used a plastic trim tool to lever it into position - see third picture.

Iíve removed the column stalks for inspection.  Iím glad I did as the wiring needs attention.  The white and black lead connection was broken and a couple of others, blue and grey in particular, are only held in place by half of the wire strands or less.  Whilst Iíve bought a soldering kit in order to teach myself, this job looks like the sort of precision soldering that should be trusted to an expert.  Can anybody suggest the kind of establishment Iíd need to go to in order to get this done?



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 28 May, 2020, 09:55:26 AM
Hi Norm, if there`s no one local, I am happy to resolder all the joints if you mail it to me.

Jaydub.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 28 May, 2020, 10:25:13 AM

John - that would be great.  As I'm still locked down (my wife is in the high risk category) it's quite difficult for me to go out and find somewhere local, so I'll take you up on your offer.  Will PM you.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 28 May, 2020, 05:22:29 PM
Trimmed and fitted the outer door seals today.  Would have been difficult without heavy duty tin snips.   Once again the old adage "measure twice, cut once" is very relevant.

Started trimming the Noico sound deadening material for the floor.  The car came fully carpeted (badly, and in red) with a full set of rubber mats in a separate box.  They're not in bad condition though not good enough to use alone.  I'm wondering about laying the floor pieces on top of the sound deadening, and then my new black carpets on top of that.  Will play around with them tomorrow.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 29 May, 2020, 06:21:49 PM

I did a trial fit of the carpet today.  I've put Noico sound deadening on the floors but have not fixed it in place yet. Then I put the original rubber mats down and the carpet loose laid on top of that. I'm wondering if it might make sense to leave the sound deadening loose laid?

The rubber mat section that fits between rear seat squab and floor is in good condition. The sections that fit on the sills are not.  They've been cut lengthwise into two separate pieces - one for the horizontal surface and one for the vertical, and have a number of unsightly cutouts.  I'm going to buy new pieces to replace them.  My carpet set came with pieces of carpet to fit over the sills but I prefer the look of the rubber.  It matches well with the section below the rear seat, and with the section that fits around the gearbox bulge - which has cleaned up nicely.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 30 May, 2020, 01:49:55 PM
Looking good, Norm. On the road when the lockdown lifted?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 30 May, 2020, 04:00:02 PM

I did a trial fit of the carpet today.  I've put Noico sound deadening on the floors but have not fixed it in place yet. Then I put the original rubber mats down and the carpet loose laid on top of that. I'm wondering if it might make sense to leave the sound deadening loose laid?

The rubber mat section that fits between rear seat squab and floor is in good condition. The sections that fit on the sills are not.  They've been cut lengthwise into two separate pieces - one for the horizontal surface and one for the vertical, and have a number of unsightly cutouts.  I'm going to buy new pieces to replace them.  My carpet set came with pieces of carpet to fit over the sills but I prefer the look of the rubber.  It matches well with the section below the rear seat, and with the section that fits around the gearbox bulge - which has cleaned up nicely.
Norman,
I laid mine loose 20 years ago with no problems since, besides if you have the misfortune to spring  leak, it's soon whipped out.
Brian
8227
 8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 30 May, 2020, 10:55:19 PM
Finished most of the electrical work and modifications today:

Indicator Flasher: Replaced the Ford electro-mechanical unit that was hanging loose below the dashboard with a new electronic Flasher, and secured it in place with a mounting  block.
Main Bean Solenoid (controlled the inner headlamps):  Not on the wiring diagram so I suspect a feature of UK-market. Removed the original electro-mechanical unit from under the dashboard.  It had been disconnected and replaced with a modern fuse-bladed Relay behind the right side headlamps.  I assumed it was broken and thatís why it was replaced, but I removed the workings from the housing as I was interested to see how it worked.  Bench-tested it and found it to be working ok (interesting to see an electro-mechanical device in operation), but Iíll stay with the replacement electronic relay.
Inner and Outer Headlamps linked together:  Rewired the inner headlamp Relay, referred to above, so that inner headlamps now come on with outer headlamp main beam.  Disconnected the dashboard switch.
Radiator fan override: Connected an illuminated dashboard switch (the one freed up from inner headlamp duty) to the Coolant Solenoid so that the radiator fan can be manually activated in addition to its thermo-switched activation. Piggy-backed off pin 1 on the Solenoid.
Brake Fluid and Handbrake Flasher (Wiring Diagram item 53): Was missing on my car, so fitted a modern electronic Flasher under the dashboard.
Fuse Panel: all contacts cleaned and checked, and new ceramic fuses fitted.
Unconnected Wires:  Tracked all ten loose wires behind the dash, five of which were for the missing Solenoid (53), and either removed them or terminated with labelled single connector blocks.  
Poor Connections: Replaced a stack of dodgy looking connections across the car with new ones, and replaced four of the connector blocks which were either too dirty to clean or had been overpainted.
Wire Runs: Wires bundled with new wrap-around casings, and hung from bonnet and boot edges with correct cable straps.
Bulbs: Fitted new bulbs to all lights, and new wedge bulbs to all dashboard lights.
Column Stalks: Removed and cleaned.  Connections to be re-soldered thanks to John Whyattís help.
Hazard Flasher:  Modern integrated flasher unit with illuminated pull-push switch purchased.  Will fit it beneath the dashboard when I have the lower dash shrouds in place and can see where it would be best to position it.

Many thanks to all the forum members who have given advice, but particularly to John Whyatt (Jaydub),  Neil Sims, and Guy Mayers (SanRemo78) who have coached me through the learning process on car electrics!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 06 June, 2020, 05:06:15 PM
I've spent most of the last week working on the interior floor.  I've used Noico butyl sound deadener that come in 75cm by 50cm sheets.  The Noico is similar to Dynamat but costs about £1.50 per square foot versus more than £4 for Dynamat.  Reviews tend to favour the Dynamat , but not by very much.  I decided to use the adhesive backing to fix it  down rather than loose laying as it looked like it wouldn't stay put in the front footwells if not secured.

I cut the sheets into smaller sections using paper templates, and rolled them down with a nylon roller, covering all of the rear footwells, the front footwells up to the lower edge of the dash structure, and the gearbox housing. There are some air bubbles but I'm not worrying too much about them as the Noico will be covered with two more layers: the rubber mats, and the carpets.

I also bought a roll of 6mm closed cell foam, and put this over the Noico on the gearbox housing.  It has a self-adhesive backing. I plan to also put it down in the forward portion of the front footwells and on the sills and rear seat base.

The rubber mats needed a lot of cleaning to get rid of the surface discolouration, but Gunk followed by Autoglym Vinyl and Rubber Care did the trick.  New rubber coverings for the sills have arrived so they'll go down next.  


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 07 June, 2020, 04:04:45 PM

Playing around with switches today.  My car had no engine bay light switch and no boot light switch.  Also, the springs in both door-open switches had broken up.  I bought six second hand switches in various conditions.  Although all different part numbers in the TAV they share a number of components: plungers, springs, washers, retaining nuts.  So I have been mixing and matching to make up some good ones.  I've also ordered a length of stainless steel compression spring which I can cut into 18mm sections: it is 5.8mm outside diameter and 0.8mm wire thickness.  A 100mm length costs only £2 so I can try a different size if this doesn't fit.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 June, 2020, 05:32:24 PM

I continued with the fitting of the closed cell foam sound insulation today.  I applied it to both footwells and the driver side sill.  I need to decide how to fit the passenger side as I'd like to still have access to the cable runs. 

The new sill rubber mats arrived as flat sheets that need to be folded and to have cut-outs made for the protrusions in the floor pan.  I've folded them and have them under some heavy weights to try to get a good right angle bend.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 09 June, 2020, 05:05:13 PM

Lots of fiddly small jobs today: continued the clean up of the switches, painted the pedals, fitted the newly acquired choke lever fastening, and so on. 

I started to fit the inner stainless steel sill strips, the ones that overlap the edge of the rubber mats or carpets.  They were badly scuffed so I had a go at polishing them - something I had researched on the internet over the weekend. I sanded them with 400 grit sandpaper, and then with a succession of finer grits: 800, 1500, 2500, 5000, and 7000.  I finished off with a good rubbing with metal polish. I'm very pleased with the outcome. I didn't eliminate all scratches but the appearance is now ten times better than before. The second picture shows the driver side unpolished and the passenger side after polishing.

I got the windscreen out of the loft and am steeling myself to have a go at fitting it, aided by my diminutive wife who successfully helped me with the rear screen.  Watch this space.   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 10 June, 2020, 07:09:43 PM

The new rubber sill covers arrived so I've cut them to fit with the aid of some paper templates.  I'll hopefully be able to fit them tomorrow and the floor will then be finished.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 June, 2020, 06:46:35 PM
Well, the closed cell foam soundproofing on the inner sill wasn't a good idea.  The rubber mats need a firmer support structure in order to get a good right angle bend so I spent this morning removing the foam and scraping and rubbing the sill with white spirit to get back to metal. Fortunately I'd only covered the driver side sill.  

Spent the afternoon on some small tasks.  My car never had an engine bay light so I cleaned up and fitted the used light and switch that I bought, and I fitted the external stainless steel trim strips below the rear quarter lights.  

Some of you may recall that I asked a while back about the cover strips for the bonnet edge mouldings that are shown as item 56 in the TAV.  I have never seen a Fulvia with them fitted.  While browsing the Wiring Products catalogue I noticed beading for 97p per metre that looked very similar.  I bought 4 metres, enough to do bonnet and boot (TAV item 55).  It finishes off the bonnet nicely.

I'll fit the rubber sill mats tomorrow and then start on the windscreen if I can steel myself to do it!    


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 June, 2020, 05:51:42 PM

Too wet today to roll the car out of the garage to finish off the floor, so I cleaned up the windscreen and refitted the seal where it had come away from the glass.  It's ready for fitting to the car now.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 June, 2020, 05:29:24 PM

Finally finished the floor. 

Fitted the new rubber sill covers today, then put the loose laid rubber mats in place and then the carpets.  Now the rubber mats and carpets will be put back in the loft while I focus on the windscreen, console and dashboard.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 13 June, 2020, 08:35:37 PM

I was impressed how tight you got the anti resonance material down.  Nice being able to see the pressing patterns still. 

Lovely result.  Another big item ticked off.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: chriswgawne on 14 June, 2020, 08:29:26 AM
Great work Norman. Its coming together really well. I had a new white S2 Fulvia Coupe back in the day and I reckon the quality of build of your car is better than mine was! I sold mine after 2 years due to cosmetic rust issues and I dread to think what was going on in the sills then........but I promptly bought a silver S3 Coupe as they are such great cars to drive.
You must be getting excited about driving it again now?
Chris


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 June, 2020, 06:26:51 PM
Yes Chris - looking forward to getting behind the wheel again!

Today I did a job that I thought would be easier while the windscreen is still out.  I prepared the glovebox for lining.  I had bought some vinyl fabric a while back.  I made paper templates and used them to cut out four pieces of foam board.  I'll cover the board with the fabric.  Before I do that I need to know what cutouts there should be.  I've made one on the right (RHD car so the side furthest from the door) for the two earth connections.  Further back on the same side is a fairly large cutout, shown in my last photograph, with just a single bundle of wires passing through it.  I was wondering if that cutout is for access to the heater control rods. Can anybody tell me if there's a large cutout in the glovebox lining in that location, or is the cutout in the metal largely covered up?  


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 16 June, 2020, 07:16:53 PM
Hi Norm, only saw this request this evening. I will look tomorrow.

John


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 22 June, 2020, 07:55:29 PM

Can anybody explain the purpose of the pin in this picture?  It is in the reverse position for the gear lever. Is it just to offer some resistance as the lever pushes past it to select reverse gear?
 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 22 June, 2020, 08:34:46 PM

Can anybody explain the purpose of the pin in this picture?  It is in the reverse position for the gear lever. Is it just to offer some resistance as the lever pushes past it to select reverse gear?
 
In theory you should need to push the gear lever down in order to engage reverse so you don't accidentally push the lever forward thinking its first gear and reverse into the car behind. Quite a few of those threaded extensions have broken off in years gone and or mal adjusted. You seem to have something that will give you some protection from accidental reverse...


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 23 June, 2020, 08:48:22 PM
Thanks Tim.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 23 June, 2020, 08:54:50 PM


I fitted the new front and rear trim cards.  Three of them needed a bit of trimming to fit properly, peeling back the vinyl cover, trimming the hardboard, and refitting the cover, but all seem ok now.

Did some more work on the dashboard - tidying up and bundling wires.  Thereís quite a bit of dust inside the instrument panel so Iíll remove the perspex to clean it.  A spare instrument panel came with the car so I have a spare perspex panel if I damage the original removing it.
 
I could do with some advice on the panel.  Firstly, are there any checks that should be done on the instruments before I start fitting the dash top and shrouds?   Secondly, the rev counter operated jerkily when I last drove the car.  Can anybody suggest what the cause might be?  Iíll check the two connections on the back, and the green wire to the coil.  If these are all secure is there anything else I should check?

An option would be to remove the rev counter from the spare panel, but I have no idea whether the instruments in the spare panel are working or not.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 24 June, 2020, 06:04:21 AM
Norman I would change your rev counters over as the existing looks like it has broken its stop. A crude check of the instruments (and associated wiring) is while in situ and with the battery connected earth out the individual sender leads and the respective gauge should go full scale (you may need your co-pilot to assist with this).


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 24 June, 2020, 10:06:17 AM
Thanks Tim - Iíll take a stab at removing the rev counter from the spare panel. With regard to the three small dials, where should the needles be with ignition off? You can see that all three are different between my installed and my spare panels.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 24 June, 2020, 10:06:55 AM
Change all the bulbs!
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 24 June, 2020, 11:18:07 AM
Thanks Tim - Iíll take a stab at removing the rev counter from the spare panel. With regard to the three small dials, where should the needles be with ignition off? You can see that all three are different between my installed and my spare panels.
Always check the static needle position with the gauge as mounted (ie vertical-ish). They should all rest to the left. Mounted Temp gauge looks suspect....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 24 June, 2020, 12:25:12 PM

Brian, all wedge bulbs have been replaced with tested new ones.

Tim, thanks for the tip.  Both sets of dials look similar when held vertically, except the faulty rev counter of course.  Both temperature gauges seem to settle mid dial - is that not correct?

The rev counter came out fairly easily from the spare unit. I've cleaned the dust from the original panel and will now replace the rev counter.  The black grid that sits just under the perspex is marked on both units so I'll treat them to some black paint before reassembling.   

I thought I'd provide a mid day update to stimulate any thoughts from you experts about anything else that it's worth doing while I've got the panel out of the car. 

One tip for removing the perspex for anybody doing it for the first time is that the little retention tabs should be levered from the rear of the panel to free them.  Levering via the tempting slots on the front of the panel is a recipe for cracking the perspex!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 24 June, 2020, 04:41:21 PM
Norman

on basis of probability the temp gauge should be ok. I have only had one Fulvia with Jaeger instruments and cannot remember what it does with no power. It may change once on side has 12v applied....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 24 June, 2020, 04:43:22 PM
Lovely to see the car this afternoon, back seat and side panels are in and it looks like Norman is on the home straight.

Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 25 June, 2020, 06:24:50 AM
The temp gauge needle should be midway when everything is off, Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 25 June, 2020, 12:42:08 PM

Interesting morning, if not the one I had planned!

Fitted the rev counter from my spare panel and reassembled the panel ready to refit to the car.  Hooked up the earth and then tested the various contacts only to find that just two bulbs plus the temperature gauge were working.   I tested the spare panel and found a similar result, with just one bulb working.  I suspected corrosion on the printed circuit board.

I removed the circuit board from the spare panel and sure enough found heavy corrosion.  Doing continuity checks directly on the board showed that most pathways were not conducting.  So a couple of hours with emery paper and elbow grease and all pathways are working correctly now and bulbs are coming on when they should. 

I was a bit puzzled at first as four of the bulbs would not light, but looking closely at the routing on the circuit board I could see that all four of those bulbs do not earth through the same earth contact as the rest. They are Fuel Level Warning, Handbrake, Alternator and Choke. 

So now to fit the cleaned up board to my original panel and get back to the jobs Iíd planned to do today!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 25 June, 2020, 02:07:08 PM
Would there be any benefit to tinning the contact areas of the copper to reduce future corrosion at contact point?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 30 June, 2020, 10:04:54 PM

Tim - I had reassembled the instrument panel before I saw your suggestion, not that I'd feel competent to do it anyway.  I think the cleaned up circuit board should be good for quite a few years.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 30 June, 2020, 10:20:46 PM
I started preparing the bumpers for fitment.  I've got the original set that came with the car, but unfitted, and a better set that I bought to replace them.  Both suffer from what I would guess to be a common problem: rusting of the steel mounting brackets that are welded inside the bumper. As my first picture shows, the more central brackets are in quite good condition, but the outer brackets have broken away completely. You can see what's left of the bracket to the left of the picture.  I've ground off the residual weld material from the broken ones, and have wire brushed, Kurusted and Hammerited all residual metal.  I've also de-rusted and Hammerited the removable brackets that attach the bumper to the car.

I'm not sure what to do about the missing mounting brackets.  I could have some made up and welded into place. I'm not sure if welding mild steel to stainless is a specialist task - seem to recall my own welder saying he wouldn't be able to do it.  Or I could make brackets myself that wedge inside the bumper and prevent any rotation of  the mounting brackets.  Or, I could do what the owner of my replacement bumpers did and shorten the mounting brackets and connect one end only.  Anybody got suggestions?

I also looked at the number plate lights.  I was hoping to make up two good ones from the four that I've got.  It seems that I'm missing the lamp holders that slot into them.  Would they be an off-the-shelf item, or something specific to the car, or to Lancia?  


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 01 July, 2020, 10:57:58 AM
Norm - a request! Once you've finished with the bumper fitting can I have what's leftover of the number plate lights? They are used on the front (!) of Gp4 Stratos! Also, next time I'm there, please remind me to look at the windscreen washer jet! We're looking for a couple but no luck so far! Keep up the excellent work!
Cheers
Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 01 July, 2020, 12:18:27 PM
Guy do you have a pic of the washer jet??

Where do rear fulvia number plate lights go on the front of a Strato's???


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 01 July, 2020, 12:48:58 PM
Sorry Tim, not yet but I'm led to believe that's the correct part by a ver knowledgeable person.


Number plate light is just visible under the "L" of Lancia on the left side of the car in this pic.

https://www.rallyssimo.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/avogvo.jpg

Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 01 July, 2020, 01:28:28 PM
Brazing or silver solder?  This is basically an advert for a particular material, but gives the idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf6J1pmmApk

Lots on the web about and mig tig welding stainless to mild and how particular to be about process and rod. Its not a bit of space rocket, but you don't want to have it corrode or get brittle. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htmxZxkdNWE

Money no object if worried about joining dissimilar materials make the bracket in stainless as well?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: D5177_55A on 01 July, 2020, 02:12:09 PM
I had the same problem with my rear bumper. So I drew up some pans for replacement brackets and had them laser-cut and shaped. Canít remember the price exactly but it was just shy of £100. Then I got someone to weld them onto the bumper itself. I canít remember how much that was.

Stephen


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 01 July, 2020, 02:49:51 PM
Your rear number plate lights look very familiar from my Beta coupe days. If I'm right the same ones were fitted to Beta Coupes up to at least 1978 and also I think to (Flavia) 2000 coupes. The bulb holders might be common to other lights like indicator side repeaters but aren't they usually attached to the wiring?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 July, 2020, 04:30:28 PM

Frank - yes, you're right.  The holders are normally attached to the wiring but I bought my car de-bumpered and my wires were attached to motorcycle-like lamps fitted to the rear panel.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 01 July, 2020, 04:42:56 PM
Norman

Maybe you dont want to hear this but I think the following is very good value and New.

https://www.spitline.com/index.php/fanale-luce-targa-carello-lancia-fulvia-coupe-2-serie-fulvia-3-alfa-romeo-duetto-gt-v-2000-bertone.html

Tim


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 July, 2020, 05:26:52 PM

Thanks Tim - that does look a good price, but I've just done a deal on a couple of very good used ones complete with bulb holders at a very good price.

This means Guy gets the pick of my current 4 for his Stratos!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 03 July, 2020, 06:38:30 PM

Iím stuck!

I thought Iíd connect the new barrel nipple on the heater valve and check that all the heater controls are working correctly before fitting the windscreen, as access to the rear of the dashboard will  then be much more difficult.

I connected the linkages alright but the valve arm only moved in and out of the valve about 5mm.  I donít know how far it should move to open and close the valve but without the control rods connected it moved about 10mm which looks more correct. The various linkage rods seemed to work OK so I suspected the problem to be the cable. 

Sure enough, the valve end of the piano wire enters its retaining barrel nipple at an angle and the wire was bending rather than pushing.   The end of the piano wire was bent at 45 degrees after passing through the nipple but couldnít be straightened with out removal.  The clamp that holds that end of the cable casing is tucked up beside the edge of the glovebox with only about 23mmm of clearance. See second picture  None of my angled screwdrivers would fit so I had to buy one that was only 20mm wide.  A couple of hours fiddling, as the space is so restricted and I managed to undo the clamp, not sure how easy it will be to reconnect!

After straightening the wire, I checked the top control lever again.  It should move freely without the other end of the cable connected, but it didnít.  It sticks half way across.  I partially removed the lever assembly and could see from below that the piano wire at that end was projecting through its retaining hole and scraping along the lid of the assembly and fouling against a pressed bulge.  You can see the wire and the scratches on the top plate in the centre of my third picture.

There doesnít seem to be any way to bend the wire so that it doesnít foul unless you remove the control assembly completely and remove the levers for access to the piano wire.  I disconnected the various electrical connections but hit a roadblock with the other two control cables.  The far end of each are connected with clamps that I can not figure out how to undo.

The second cable (see top of picture 4) is connected at its far end via a clamp that is screwed into a metal plate that appears riveted to the heater box.  Thereís only 2 or 3mm between the screw head and the edge of the glovebox.   The third cable loops round to the right and is clamped by a fixing that appears to have no visible method of disconnecting. See my final picture.

Has anybody removed their control assembly and (more importantly!) can remember how they disconnected these cables?  I must be missing something.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 04 July, 2020, 12:25:24 PM
Hi Norm, the control levers are clamped onto the spindles with grub screws (2.5mm Allen Key). To access the Phillips headed screw at the side of the glove box, I would drill a 10mm hole in the side of the glove box and put the screwdriver through the hole. I think you will have to loosen/remove the controls to reshape the cable/lever. Unfortunately sometimes once bent, piano wire will keep bending again.

Good Luck


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: davidwheeler on 04 July, 2020, 12:47:16 PM
It might be worth taking the heater out - as I remember this is a relatively simple matter of undoing four nuts on the engine side of the bulkhead.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Beckerman67 on 04 July, 2020, 01:38:12 PM
 New set of cables available here:

 https://www.ricambilanciafulvia.it/en/spare-parts-body-interior-lancia-fulvia/2264-kit-cavi-comando-scatola-riscaldamento-fulvia-coupe-2serie.html?search_query=scatola%20risc&fast_search=fs

 Delivery will probably Ä20 though. I've used them twice and delivery times have been very slow!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 04 July, 2020, 02:10:41 PM
Hi Norm, Iíll check my spare RHD heater box for the cable connections, I might have a few spare useable cables too.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 04 July, 2020, 03:32:06 PM

Thanks for the advice chaps.  Drilling a hole in the glove box makes sense for the second cable.  Thanks John. Interestingly I asked a few posts back about the opening in the right side of the glove box.  Without that for access I'd never had got the first cable disconnected!

Omicron have confirmed that they make up cables to suit so I have a source ready. Thanks for the Rosso Corsa tip Robert.

Does anybody have any suggestions for the third cable where no obvious means of fastening is apparent?

David - you may be right about taking the heater box out.  Having just got the console fitted I was hoping to avoid that!

Neil - thanks for doing that. When you're looking at your spare heater box you might be able to see how that third cable clamp is fixed.

 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: eog on 05 July, 2020, 09:36:40 AM
Here is a photograph of the underside of the slider controls


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Beckerman67 on 05 July, 2020, 10:25:43 AM
 I have my heater box out at the moment and the third cable is held in by a clip that just pulls out with a pair of needle nose pliers.
 See photos:
 Hopefully you can help me. I've taken both side footwell vents off and can't remember which way they go back in. Is the side flap at the front or back?
 Please let me know if the number plate lights arrive OK.
 Robert.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 05 July, 2020, 12:49:42 PM

Thanks Robert - I would never had guessed they fitted that way!   And yes thanks, the lights arrived yesterday and I've already fitted them.
Are these the flaps that you're referring to?

Guy - if you're reading this - you can pick up the remaining 4 number plate lights whenever you want and take your pick for the Stratos.



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Beckerman67 on 05 July, 2020, 01:29:34 PM
 Yes they are the ones. When opened as per your picture, is the plastic deflector at the front or back?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 05 July, 2020, 01:36:08 PM

Just checked.  Projecting flaps are towards rear of car on mine.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 05 July, 2020, 02:05:07 PM
[quote author=nthomas1 link=topic=9873.msg84234#msg84234 date=1593953382
Guy - if you're reading this - you can pick up the remaining 4 number plate lights whenever you want and take your pick for the Stratos.

[/quote]

Cheers Norm, put them to one side withe crimper for me and I'll collect the lot when you've completed the wiring!
Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 06 July, 2020, 05:02:04 PM

Eureka!  With help from the forum I was able to remove the heater control assembly today.

I enlarged an existing small hole in the side of the glove box to gain access to the screw for the clamp that holds the middle cable. 

On disassembly it could be seen that all but one of the 6 large flexible washers had become brittle, and a couple were missing completely, probably broken up over time and the bits dropped into the footwells.  Similarly, the small flexible washer on the fan motor control lever spindle had disintegrated.

The cables for the middle and lower control levers are in good condition and Iíve sprayed some grease into the casings and will reuse them.  The cable from the top lever shows evidence of a previous botched replacement.  You will recall that the lever was jamming half way across its travel.  You can see the cable in the final picture.  Itís the very curved one.  The piano wire had been replaced with wire of a thicker gauge, which did not slide freely, and the end that fits into the control lever had been bent in such a way that it scraped against the top of the metal pressing, and fouled half way through its travel.  The correct way to bend the piano cable at the control arm end can be seen on the other two cables.

Iíve painted the metal housing and cleaned everything up and Iíve ordered a new cable, new flexible washers, and one replacement lever - to replace the one with the broken handle.  Theyíll hopefully arrive (from Omicron) by the end of the week.

Onwards and upwards.



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 07 July, 2020, 05:34:50 PM
My front indicators came in a box with my car and looked to be in reasonable condition.  After removing the lenses I could see rust along the edges of the reflectors, and the rubber perimeter seals had become brittle and had broken up (shown at bottom of second picture).  I rust-treated the reflector edges and gave them a couple of coats of silver paint.  Iíve just been painting and weather-sealing some sash windows and had some left over rubber bubble seal, so I cut strips from it and they fitted nicely in the channels around the edges.  I cut strips from the curved part (a bit fiddly) as I didn't want to use the flat part with adhesive on.

Two of the indicator mounting brackets were easily removed from the bumper and cleaned up and painted.  The remaining two are stubborn.  The nuts are rusted in position and wonít budge and the posts rotate inside the rubber cover strips to which theyíre bonded.  The other two nuts that hold the end rubber strips in place can be removed so I'm sure Iíll end up removing the strips completely.

Has anybody got experience of repairing a rotating post in the rubber bumper trim?   I think the screws rusting solid is a common problem on Fulvias, certainly the case on my second set of bumpers.  Thereís a rubber strip (rear) for sale on Ebay at the moment  and the listing says that new posts have been ďchemically bonded in placeĒ.  Iíve written to the seller to ask what product was used - donít know if Iíll get a reply.  


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 08 July, 2020, 05:04:05 PM
Iím waiting for my heater parts to arrive so I thought Iíd crack on with the bumpers.

Following on from yesterdayís post I had a closer look at the seized studs in the front bumper where the indicators are held in place.  I managed to cut through the studs with a thin cutting wheel on my Dremel, and that has left enough of the studs to reuse them.  While I can feel that the ends that are bonded into the rubber decor strip are rotating, they have fortunately not torn loose.

I tried to fit the front indicator units.  No problem on one side, but on the other one of the mounting studs was broken.  It is a short 10mm collar with an M5 stud one side, and a thread for the M4 machine screw that holds the indicator lens in place.  Does anybody have one in their ďbox of bitsĒ (or Fulvia shed in Neilís case) by any chance?  

I also fitted the rear bumper.  I had wondered about the welding in of new brackets.  Thank you David and Stephen for your useful input on this.  Iím not really in a position to shop around for stainless steel welding capability at the moment so I thought Iíd make a temporary fix.   The main welded brackets on each side are in good condition and I think are strong enough alone to hold the bumper, but I wanted to have something in place to prevent any rotation of the mounting brackets.  I made a couple of simple steel brackets and cut rectangular apertures with a Dremel to hold M6 captive nuts.  I then Araldited them in place, with a small amount of filler either side to supplement.  A bit Heath Robinson, but theyíll keep me going until I can make a more permanent fix.  


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 July, 2020, 03:01:00 PM

The front bumper is assembled, with new wiring to the indicators, and is ready to fit. 

I installed the fuel tank this morning, and connected up the filler neck.  I used non-hardening body caulk strips from Woolies around the tank perimeter, and new captive nuts and machine screws.   Attaching the neck to the tank was a fiddly job.  I used a new square section sealing washer.  At first the neck wouldnít line up, and it is imperative that it be dead square.  The section of boot floor that it passes through was a new welded-in section and the hole was slightly out of position.  After widening the hole a couple of millimeters the neck thankfully squared up.  Then a dozen or so attempts to get the plastic/nylon retaining ring to start correctly on the tank metal thread.  Hand tightened and finished off with a strap wrench being careful not to over-tighten.  Iíd cut a hole in some sheet rubber slightly undersize, to give a good seal on the neck passing through the boot floor.

Almost got the fuel pipes fitted but broke off to watch the Grand Prix.  Well done Lewis, and great race (again) by young Lando Norris!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 July, 2020, 06:02:37 PM

Expansion box and pipes fitted, and overflow pipe from the filler flap enclosure.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 14 July, 2020, 03:37:09 PM

I did a job today that I was not looking forward to: fitting the stainless steel trim to the front of the car.

The external weld flanges on the Fulvia are quite a design weakness in my view.  Moisture gets into the gaps very easily, and most Fulvias that Iíve seen have suffered from rust somewhere around the flanges.  The problem is exacerbated by fastening the trim using retaining clips that bite into the metal creating further rust opportunities.

I researched the topic but did not find much information on the best way to refit the trim. Some people suggest fitting them without the retaining clips, and instead using a silicone caulk/adhesive.  One person fitted  the plastic chrome-effect strips as used on Mini weld flanges!

I decided that there was too much ďspringĒ in the strips for silicone alone to hold them in place on my car.  I removed and discarded the old rusted retaining clips, and cleaned up the trim strips.  I decided to use 3 retaining clips each side (versus the 5 original).  I positioned one near either end and one pretty much half way, held in position with a dab of clear silicone to stop them moving during fitment.   

I did a dry fit, and found that quite a bit of force was needed to push the strips into place. I wrapped a piece of wood in a cloth to hold against the trim while using a rubber mallet to apply the necessary force.

As expected, on removal of the trim after the dry fit I found paint scraped off in a number of places, mostly just through to primer, but a few places back to bare metal (see second picture).  I painted the scratched and chipped areas and then applied a thin coat of silicone to the patches, as they seemed to be the most vulnerable areas.  I also applied a generous amount of silicone to the inside of the trim where the retaining clips were located - in the hope of covering any further areas of paint being scraped away during final fitment.

The front of the car is now looking much closer to completion - with the stainless steel garnish rims added to the headlamps.  I just need to find one of those hard-to-find cover strips for the gap at the centre.




Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 14 July, 2020, 03:56:22 PM

Looking good, and as ever a well considered compromise.

Nice to see "marine" on a product :)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 22 July, 2020, 07:09:52 PM

Iíve rebuilt the heater control assembly incorporating the six new fibre washers, new upper control arm and new upper cable.  I first painted the edges of the slots in the fascia panel with some silver paint where the original paint had worn off. Assembly was fairly straightforward, although I assembled first without the fascia panel and then discovered the plastic ends of the control arms wouldnít fit through the slots, so had to disassemble and start again! 

The new control arm came painted black so does not show up very well in the first picture.  Interestingly, top and bottom arms are identical, but are fitted the opposite way round.

Installation in the car was also fairly straightforward, though quite a slow process because of the very restricted access, and the need for multiple attempts to feed the piano wire into the barrel nipples on the pivoting levers for the control rods.   An extremely narrow screwdriver was essential to tighten the clamp for the upper control cable.

All controls now work smoothly and the actuating rod in the water valve now moves fully from open to closed position.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 22 July, 2020, 09:16:52 PM
Excellent work Norm! It's satisfying when it all goes together and works as intended!
Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 23 July, 2020, 09:31:29 AM
Well done Norm, you are making good progress, I like the replacement fibre washers in the controls, I should have done that. I might replace my NOS water valve as it leaks slightly when operated, I hope yours doesn't when you get to that point.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 23 July, 2020, 05:19:27 PM

A few small jobs today.  Fitted the rear quarter light over-centre catches and installed the rear seat and parcel shelf.  They shouldn't have to come out again now.  I did a trial fit of the dash top to make sure none of the wiring or heater cables obstruct it.  Better to find out now rather than after the windscreen is installed.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 24 July, 2020, 09:06:18 AM
Looking really good Norm. Question; is your rear seat standard, as mine is plain with no pleating?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 24 July, 2020, 12:46:05 PM

Pleating was standard on the S2 John, and I believe plain un-pleated was standard on the HF.  I just checked half a dozen listings and they seem to confirm that.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: my69S1 on 24 July, 2020, 02:55:26 PM
Those side window catches look new.  Are they new (supplier?) or did you just refurbish them.  Car is looking great BTW.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 24 July, 2020, 06:39:18 PM

I bought them used on Ebay - as they were in excellent condition and better than the ones I removed.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 10 August, 2020, 07:42:05 PM

The four visiting grandchildren have left, so back to work on the Fulvia this morning after a weekís break.  Iíve been putting off tackling the windscreen for a while now but couldnít think of any more excuses.  To my surprise it actually went in more easily than the smaller rear screen did. 

Same process as for the rear screen that I described a few weeks back: venetian blind pull cord around the perimeter of the rubber seal and overlapping at the bottom;  P80 emulsion as a lubricant around the seal and around the aperture; screen rested in place and centralised; my wife applying light pressure to the outside of the screen; cords pulled across the bottom to pull the rubber seal over the aperture lip; checked that both lower corners were aligned; then pulled the string up the two sides and around the top corners; finally cord pulled across the top.

After wiping off the excess lubricant I fitted the sun visors and rear view mirror.  A satisfying couple of hours work! The only remaining task is to apply some black sealant under the external lip of the seal. 

 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 10 August, 2020, 09:18:53 PM
Well done Norm, I got a windscreen expert to do mine, as I needed it done in a hurry... it is all looking very good


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 10 August, 2020, 09:42:18 PM
Well done Norm, I got a windscreen expert to do mine, as I needed it done in a hurry... it is all looking very good
Well done Norman, that headlining looks brilliant  :D
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 11 August, 2020, 05:14:34 PM
I pity your wife Norm.

Having to crawl onto the bonnet to check her lippy in the mirror.....

Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 August, 2020, 07:30:26 PM
Yes Guy, an Italian friend of mine pointed that out to me! Quickly corrected.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 11 August, 2020, 09:09:10 PM
at least he had the subtlety to send you a private message Norm  ;D ;D ;D

Shout when you need the crimping tool back!

Cheers
Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 14 August, 2020, 08:20:51 AM

I have a problem with the lighting stalk assembly.  I had all of the electrical connections re-soldered and I have re-fitted the assembly to the steering column.  However, the spring in the black plastic knob at the end of the flasher stalk is not working - presumably broken up inside the moulding in the same way as a number of other springs on the car such as those in the door-open light switches have disintegrated.

I have not been able to find a source for the plastic knob, so I have three questions:

1) Has anybody ever tried to take one of the knobs apart?  There's no obvious way to do this that I can see.
2) Does anybody have one spare?
3) Can anybody suggest a source?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 14 August, 2020, 09:12:17 AM
Is it the same as the top of the washer stalk ? If so I have some on the shelf, let me know if you don't find one in the UK


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 14 August, 2020, 10:33:08 AM
Thanks for the offer Simon, but Omicron have found a used one and at a reasonable price so I'll go for that for the sake of speed.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 14 August, 2020, 02:25:28 PM
Not wishing to undercut Omicron but I have a few...


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 14 August, 2020, 04:51:10 PM
Thanks Tim, but I've already ordered the Omicron one.... and it was a good price!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 14 August, 2020, 04:59:55 PM

Installed the passenger seat this morning.  Took it apart first to fit the rubber seal to the lower edge of the base and to re-glue the fabric around the base as it had come away in places while sitting on the shelf for a couple of years. Dry fitted the frame to check hole alignment before removing it again and fitting it to the upholstered section. It went in nicely and the slider mechanism and lock work smoothly.  Will get the driver's seat ready next but won't install it until I've finished work on the dashboard electrics.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 August, 2020, 10:03:52 AM

Iím working along two parallel paths at the moment: trouble shooting my electrics, while finishing the installation of interior and exterior trim.  That will just leave exhaust system and fuel system hook-up to complete the rebuild.

Electrics are quite a challenge as Iím very much learning as I go.

After refitting the renovated and re-soldered column stalks I made up a test lead and reinstalled the battery in the car, and connected the test lead between the battery positive terminal and the starter motor.  A connector on the test lead allows me to disconnect when not working on the car.

With the ignition off, fuse 7 is live as it should be, but fuse 8 is not.  When I turn ignition to ďMARĒ fuse 8 becomes live as does fuse 9, and the alternator warning light on the instrument panel comes on.  So my first task is to find out why fuse 8 is not permanently live.

From the wiring diagram it looks like fuse 8 gets its power feed via a red wire from terminal 1 on the Outer Light Solenoid thatís mounted behind the fuse array,  It is shown as item 31 on the wiring diagram in the Series 2 ownerís manual.  There may well be a permanent pass-through of the power from terminal 73 to terminal 1.  There seems to be continuity between these (if I checked it correctly, using the continuity setting on multi meter). If thatís correct, and knowing that fuse 7 is live, my problem must be with the contacts on the two red wires that connect the fuses to the solenoid, I guess. 

The Outer Light Solenoid is an interesting device, with seven terminals, so looks like it could be a double solenoid if there is such a thing.  It would be good to bench test it, but Iíd need to understand which are the activating circuits and which are the activated.  Can anybody tell me the convention for the terminal numbering on a solenoid of this type - which Iíve sketched in the picture below? 



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 18 August, 2020, 12:50:20 PM
I think fuse 8 gets power from the ignition switch blue/black lead which is off when the switch is off and in GAR. So I think you have it correct. If Fuse 8 was powered all the time your coil would get red hot and burn out... And run the battery flat.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 August, 2020, 03:41:27 PM
I think fuse 8 gets power from the ignition switch blue/black lead which is off when the switch is off and in GAR. So I think you have it correct. If Fuse 8 was powered all the time your coil would get red hot and burn out... And run the battery flat.

Tim - Are you sure?  The ignition Blue/Black goes only to Fuse 9 on my car, and thatís also the case on the wiring diagram. And ref your Coil comment, I can see no link from Fuse 8 to the Coil. I thought Iíd read somewhere that fuses 7 and 8 should be permanently live.  Am I missing somethimg?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 19 August, 2020, 09:27:14 AM
Tim - after some tracing, the Blue/Black wire from the ignition key goes to Fuse 9, not Fuse 8. Thereís actually a Black wire from ignition ST setting that powers Fuse 8.

Fuse 7 gets its feed from the Starter Motor terminal.  That means Fuses 7 and 8 are both live when ignition is off, which is what I was expecting.

Interestingly, Fuse 8 goes off at GAR setting then back on at MAR.

If all of the above sounds correct I can now start checking the lighting circuits and operation of Fuses 1 to 6.



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 19 August, 2020, 04:14:43 PM
Sorry Norman. Did from memory! I am away but as you say its should agree with the car circuit diagram. (The circuit is same for rhd and lhd cars except for uk headlight arrangement where I have not seen a specific diagram for this inner outer H4....).

Tim


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 20 August, 2020, 05:41:41 PM

Completed the first stage of electrical testing today by checking all components that should be activated when the ignition key is at ST setting. 

Fuses 1, 2, 7 and 8 were all live as expected.  The plug-in socket was activated and the heating/cooling fan worked on both settings.  With the sidelight sliding switch turned on the sidelights at all four corners lit up - which is pleasing as all connectors, connector blocks and bulbs have been replaced.  Also, the roof dome light is working, as is the circuit for the clock. 

Problem areas were the door open lights which didnít come on so I need to check the wiring, and the wipers.  When the wiper stalk was pressed I could here a click like a mechanical relay activating, but the wiper spindles didnít move - so some work to be done there.  I also need to check day headlamp flashing.  Iíve just got the replacement switch with push button from Omicron so will attach that tomorrow.

Testing the GAR setting is next.

I also fitted the side brackets for the front bumper - so it is nicely horizontal now. I had to drill new holes in the front wheel arches as the originals had been covered up during the bodywork welding.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: tzf60 on 21 August, 2020, 10:51:46 AM
Looks fabulous, Norm!
You must be very pleased with the way the work is progressing  :)
 
Keep her lit!
Tim


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Keithver on 23 August, 2020, 07:53:14 AM
Norm, the car looks wonderful. I've just read through your whole post. Impressive and inspiring. I'm at the beginning stage and have just stripped my '72 and starting the repairs. Thanks for all the effort you have gone to in documenting your rebuild - well done. I have picked up loads of tips and made notes. I hope to start my own thread soon and keep you all updated on my build


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 23 August, 2020, 07:56:15 PM
Thanks guys.

I received tremendous inspiration and knowledge from other Fulvia rebuild logs on here maintained by people like Neil Cundy (ncundy), James Parry (chugga boom), Simon Ingman (simonandjuliet) and Robin Lacey (Dilambdaman), so I was keen to also share my journey in the hope that it would help other people in a similar way. I look forward to seeing your progress in this forum Keith!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 27 August, 2020, 06:25:02 PM

Some small jobs completed today.  Small, but time consuming!

My car came with a bodged non-standard striker for the bonnet catch.  I cut through the thread of the old striker as the nut in the bonnet cavity was seized, and inaccessible.  There was no welded-in nut in the bonnet cavity which the TAV diagram implies.   To fit the new striker I had to make a tool to hold the retention nut in place.  Fortunately I had a flat spanner of the right size which I was able to bend in a couple of places so that it could fit through the aperture for the safety catch.  I used a piece of Gorilla tape to hold the nut in the spanner while tightening the nut adjacent to the head of the striker.

I had overhauled the bonnet release lever and cable some time back and then fitted the release catch only to have one of the end loops snap off the old spring after a couple of applications.  Itís taken some searching to find the right replacement spring as nobody seemed to have the spec. Dimensions werenít a problem, but spring strength, or ďrateĒ as itís known, was.  Working with the folks at Omicron I tried a spring of 0.29 N/mm but that wasnít anywhere near strong enough to pull the release lever in the passenger footwell back after releasing the catch. Examination of a catch on a customer vehicle at Omicron allowed measurement of the spring rate leading to a second attempt with a much higher rated spring of 1.64 N/mm which is working nicely.

I still need to find some front rubber bonnet  stops as mine were crudely drilled through to allow bonnet pins to be installed - now removed. Another bodge!



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Keithver on 28 August, 2020, 11:50:51 AM
thanks for the spring detail. Also on my list, but haven't got a replacement yet. Now I know what to ask for. Keep up the good work. I've started my thread and aspire to be as thorough as you have been. https://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=11916.0


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 28 August, 2020, 05:54:08 PM
Iíve fitted the fuzzy weatherstrip scrapers to the door top exterior stainless steel trim strips.  

The strips were fitted at the factory using staples.  I had removed my old scrapers some time ago - they just crumbled as I pulled the staples out.

There are numerous ways to fit new scrapers: wire to simulate the original staples; small screws; adhesive; or double sided tape.  I opted for the adhesive route using a recommended adhesive called Delta Tru-Flex which a friend has been using in marine applications for many years.  To eliminate the risk of drift of the scraper over time I decided to add 3 small screws each side for a belt and braces approach.

I cut the new weatherstrip to size and found the resultant lengths to be quite springy and impossible to completely straighten and remove twist. Anticipating problems with one end of the adhesive-covered strip waving around while the other end was being secured I knocked up a simple jig to help with alignment.

The next issue to be addressed was how to secure the scraper to the trim while the adhesive cured.  Others have used low-tack masking tape wrapped around the scraper and trim.  I decided to use the large bulldog clips that I bought when I installed my headlining.  I used low-tack masking tape to protect outer surface of the trim strip from scratches from the bulldog clips.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 28 August, 2020, 05:55:56 PM
Carrying on from the previous post:

I applied the adhesive in a thin bead - about 2mm wide - the size of the opening in the nozzle when it arrived.  I then spread the adhesive down away from the top to limit any adhesive squeezing up to the top of the scraper.

I carefully lowered the scraper onto the trim strip in the jig.  Then starting at one end I slid the assembly slowly out of the jig far enough to be able to fasten one bulldog clip in place.  I then repeated the process, sliding the assembly out of the jig about 4 inches at a time and adding bulldog clips at each stage..   Once I got to the end I went back and filled the gaps with additional bulldog clips.

I left the clamped assemblies 24 hours to cure, then drilled small holes either end and one in the middle and fastened small screws.  I had six spare examples of the screws used to hold the inner weatherstrips to the door tops so I used these - they are about 6mm long and 4mm across the heads.   After fastening I cut off the ends protruding into the gap in the trim with a Dremel cutting wheel, and dabbed a small blob of sealant on the screw heads to keep them from falling into the door well if they came loose.

Then fitted the strips to the car.  Happy with the result!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 29 August, 2020, 04:03:16 PM
Great narrative as always, thank you Norm. It will come in handy for me in a year or so, if I get that far.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 31 August, 2020, 06:11:10 PM

Well, much head scratching with the electrical testing today.  I thought I was home and dry testing everything that should work with the ignition on ST setting.  My concern that the open-door lights werenít working properly was mis-founded.  Turns out that opening either door activates the lights on both doors plus the interior dome light.  I was expecting the light on on a closed door to go out when the other door is open but thatís not the case.  Also, wipers and washer pump are both working correctly.

The head scratching came when I operated the sidelight slider switch.  That caused the door lights and interior light to go off.  Testing the fuses showed that 7 and 8 had gone off, and 1 and 2 had not come on.  Canít yet figure out how that can happen!   MTR, as Colin Chapman often wrote on design sketches given to himÖÖ. more thought required. 

Iíve been working on trim and mechanical tasks in parallel with the electrical testing, so plan to do some work under the car next: fit handbrake cable, heat shield and new Imasaf exhaust system.  Iíve somehow managed to lose the lower dust guard for the handbrake so if anybody has one that they donít need Iíd be pleased to buy it.   Itís item 19 in the TAV picture below.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 02 September, 2020, 03:55:20 PM
Took the bonnet off in order to apply some clear Dinitrol wax proofing to the cavities, then fitted some closed-cell foam sound proofing to the areas between the braces.  While it's off I'll refit the bonnet-top 1.3 S badge with the correct star clips.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 September, 2020, 09:04:17 PM
Iíve fitted the new Italian Imasaf brand exhaust system to the car.  I started with a dry fit of the three sections.  The tail pipe fitted fine, but the two-into-one section and middle section wouldnít fit together at first. I had to file the edges of the two-in-one section to get a bevel, and smoothed the inside of the receiving section.  Then with some grease and with a friend holding the middle section braced agains the wall  the fit was achieved, assisted by a metal rod between the two downpipes acting as a lever to rotate as it was pushed into position.  The clamp was left in position to be tightened later, as I could see that some rotational adjustment would be needed during fitment to the car.

This two-part assembly was then slid under the car, hooked over the rear axle, and supported on a couple of stacks of 2x4 timber boocks while the manifold end was connected with a new metal gasket. After then swivelling the middle section to get the tail box parallel to the floor of the car I tightened the clamp holding the two sections together and then
 connected to the two rear support points with the rubber hangers that came with the new exhaust. Finally, I fitted and clamped the tail pipe, and suspended it with a third rubber hanger.   While under the car I refitted the heat shield.

All fairly straightforward stuff, but my first time fitting an exhaust so all of it a learning curve!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 19 September, 2020, 05:46:55 PM

I've fitted the seat belts.  I bought Securon static belts as I like the look of them.  I've had static and inertia belts before and am quite happy with static.

I somehow lost the two brackets that hold the centre stalks but managed to find a used pair which just needed de-rusting and painting.  I decided to fit them directly to the floor of the car and cut a slit in the rear carpet for the top of the brackets to pass through.

That's another job ticked off the list.





Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 20 September, 2020, 03:42:50 PM
I finished off some detail work on the bonnet before refitting it to the car this morning.  Glued the foam rubber surround for the air intake in place, and fitted the 1.3S bonnet-top badge with a thin smear of clear silicone and two star clips.  I fitted the leading edge rubber seal by fitting the two curved L-section metal supports in place with self tapping screws, cutting the moulding to the correct lengths and fixing them in place with impact adhesive.  Finally, I fitted the U-section edging strip to the two sides of the bonnet, also with impact adhesive.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Beckerman67 on 21 September, 2020, 09:15:56 AM
 Hi Norm

 Just curious about the L shaped metal strips along the front of the bonnet that the seal is bonded to. I appear to have no such strips!
 Did you have them or acquire them?

 On a different tack, does anyone know where I can buy a pair of wiper arms for a RHD? Nobody appears to stock them including that well known Norfolk based company?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 21 September, 2020, 11:15:50 AM
Looking good Norman.

When are you going to fire her up and go for a run before the weather closes in....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 21 September, 2020, 05:16:26 PM
Hi Norm

 Just curious about the L shaped metal strips along the front of the bonnet that the seal is bonded to. I appear to have no such strips!
 Did you have them or acquire them?

 On a different tack, does anyone know where I can buy a pair of wiper arms for a RHD? Nobody appears to stock them including that well known Norfolk based company?

Robert - I had none on my car when I bought it.  I had a pair made up for me by Omicron (£54 plus vat and shipment) as they have to curve to fit the bonnet, so are beyond my capabilities. They are L-shaped, whereas the original equipment items have a short return lip on the longer side - so more Z-shaped than L-shaped.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 21 September, 2020, 05:24:50 PM
Looking good Norman.

When are you going to fire her up and go for a run before the weather closes in....

Tim - before taking the car on the road I've got some brake and electrical work to sort out, and I've got to reconnect the fuel supply.  Of course, fitting the driver's door and seat would be a good idea as well.  I'm in no hurry, and will carry on at the current pace and should get there before too long.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 24 September, 2020, 05:23:08 PM
Having installed and checked the refurbished indicator stalk I decided to fit the hazard flasher that I bought on Ebay a while back. The S2 was not factory fitted with one, although the later S3 was.  An after-market unit was recommended by Jaydub as a more straightforward option than trying to wire into a spare dashboard switch. It cost £32 on Ebay and seems well made and well thought out.  

I made up a bracket to fit under the right side of the dashboard from some left over aluminium edge strips from Ikea furniture.  My metalworking skills extend only to simple bending in a vice, and cutting with an angle grinder cutting disk, but the resultant bracket works fine.

I wired it into the indicator stalk and existing direction indicator Flasher, with a new power feed brought across from Fuse 7 so that the flasher is always operable.  Thanks again to Jaydub for help in interpreting the wiring diagram that came with the unit.  I'm happy to say it works perfectly!  


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 24 September, 2020, 07:32:31 PM
Looks good Norm, easily accessible and not in your face. Car is looking really good, very impressive workmanship.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 25 September, 2020, 06:39:58 PM

Nerve wracking job today - drilling 12 holes in the rear panel.  I'd taken detailed measurements of the positions of number plate, badges and reflectors on other people's cars at the last AGM.  A case of measure twice (or more like six times) and drill once.

Number plates should have been straightforward, but despite giving the supplier photographs of the frames, and aperture dimensions, the plates arrived exactly the same sizes as the apertures.  I was expecting them to be larger to allow for overlap.  Shows you shouldn't make assumptions!  The supplier agreed to provide me with some oversize aluminium plates free of charge to glue the number plates to.

The rear "Lancia" and "Fulvia" badges have been fitted with star clips, and I'm waiting on a couple of new reflectors to arrive.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 25 September, 2020, 07:39:57 PM
Looking great Norm! But can you fit the chrome trim around the back without removing the bumper?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 25 September, 2020, 07:52:03 PM
Looking great Norm! But can you fit the chrome trim around the back without removing the bumper?

Hi Guy - you obviously didn't notice in the third picture that I've already whipped the bumper off.  Putting the trim on is tomorrow's job!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 26 September, 2020, 09:03:27 AM
You're right Norm - missed that little detail in the number plate picture! Hope it all goes on smoothly today.
Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: D5177_55A on 29 September, 2020, 04:31:48 PM
Can you tell me where you got the Sponge Extrusion for the under-bonnet front seals from. Did it come from Omicron with the L-brackets? Iíve had a trawl of the web and canít seem to see anything in that profile. Think Iíll have a go at making my own. Carís looking good by the way!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 29 September, 2020, 09:21:49 PM
Thanks Stephen.  Yes, the foam rubber seals and metal strips came from Omicron.  The strips curve to follow the bonnet's curvature.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 October, 2020, 07:59:15 PM

Does anybody have a Fulvia Coupe wiring diagram that shows a 5-pin solenoid (reference 32) for Main Beam? 

My car is a 1973 S2, and the diagram in the Owner's Manual (Edition 3) shows a 4-pin solenoid.  I've looked at S3 wiring diagrams and they show 4-pin as well.

I've got my electrics working except for Main Beam - where I get nothing when I move the lever down and forward.  My sidelights, indicators and Low Beam are all working.

I'm determined to fully understand the interaction between the earthing wires to the column stalk and the three solenoids: 30 (Low Beam), 31 (Outer/Sidelights) and 32 (Main Beam).  The interaction is quite complex and the relays are far from standard, being 3-pin, 7-pin and 4 or 5-pin respectively.

I have drawn out some diagrams for my own benefit showing the interaction per my Owner's Manual wiring diagram but when examining the solenoids in the car I discovered a couple of differences: Fuse 7 feeds 30 in the wiring diagram and 32 is 4-pin, whereas Fuse 7 does not feed 30 in my car, but feeds 32, and 32 is 5-pin.

These differences don't appear to have anything to do with my car being UK RHD as those differences are in the downstream wiring and headlamp configuration and should not affect the 30/31/32 solenoid cluster. And the UK driving lights (inner lamps) are controlled from a separate solenoid under the dash which (not surprisingly) does not show on the (Continental spec) wiring diagram.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 01 October, 2020, 08:54:06 PM
Norm, I found a Sport diagram with a 5 pin relay, I have sent via mail.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 October, 2020, 09:11:19 PM

Thanks Neil - but the wiring is different, with 6 wires from it rather than my 5.  The extra wire is a red wire (that I don't have) to the Outer/Sidelight solenoid. I'll take a look at the rest of the Low/Side/Main lighting connections on it to see if it gives me any clues.   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 October, 2020, 09:24:08 PM
Neil - looking again at the Sport diagram it seems as though Lancia used a range of options for feeding power from Fuse 7 to the Side/Low/Main relay/solenoid cluster, with links between the solenoids passing on the current:
- Sport wiring diagram: Fuse 7 feeds Main Beam Solenoid only
- S2 wiring diagram: Fuse 7 feeds Sidelight Solenoid, and separately feeds Low Beam Solenoid
- My car: Fuse 7 feeds Sidelight Solenoid, and separately feeds Main Beam Solenoid
That extra sixth wire on the Sport diagram, compared to my car,  feeds the Fuse 7 power onwards to the Sidelight solenoid.

This all makes trying to understand the interactions between these 3 solenoids and the column stalks quite difficult!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: peteracs on 02 October, 2020, 06:44:57 AM
Hi

Interesting that Lancia put relays on all the Fulvia lights. My Beta Spider has a relay on the dipped beam, but for the full beam and side lights it just goes through the switch, which is why you get burned out switches and why I am in the process of installing relays on the side and full beam lights. Guess this was one of the cost cuttings that fiat made.

Peter


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 04 October, 2020, 11:18:49 AM
Hi Norm,
I have pm`d you but in case anyone else is interested.........

Sport.      Fuse 7 feeds Main beam and side lamp solenoids (relays)
Series 2.  Fuse 7 feeds Main beam, Dip/ beam and Side lamps Solenoids. They are all connected.

The extra wire on the 5 pin relay is there because it`s the change over wire between Dip and Main beam . Power leaves the relay via Pins 4 or 5, depending on main or dip. Switching is done by the side lamp relay input to pin 2 on the main beam relay. My 1600 HF has this 5 pin relay just to add the list of options!

Hope you are understanding it all gradually.

John


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 04 October, 2020, 03:26:04 PM

Thanks John.  Yes, it's all much clearer now.  I fully understand the way the three solenoids interact with regard to side, low and main beam operation.  Understanding how a changeover 5-pin relay works was the missing piece in the puzzle.  I've diagrammed it all out and tested the logic with brown, grey and green wire activation from the column stalk and all checks out on paper.

The only piece I haven't quite got my mind around is the white and black wire from the flasher button on the column stalk.  I can see how it earths out and activates the yellow wire from solenoid 31(sidelights) to solenoid 32 (main beam) , without activating Fuse1.  But I can't see how the lights flash without the green wire earthing to close the pin 1 to pin 2 activating circuit on solenoid 32! 

Tomorrow I'll start to track why the main beams aren't coming on.  I now know which contacts to check out.



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 04 October, 2020, 04:44:09 PM
Norm,  Brown wire from the slider switch closes the side lamp solenoid (33 on yours). This then connects White/Black wire ,pin56, to EARTH pin 56a. White/Black takes the earth to the lighting stalk which in the down position connects the Grey wire to earth and then when pulled toward you ,connects the Green wire to earth. All this with the slider switch on, which earths the Brown wire. Green operates main beam solenoid on Pin 1. Grey operates dip beam solenoid on Pin 1. The press button earths the Grey wire to flash the head lamps. If your Main beam isn`t working check that the Green wire contact is closing when you pull the stalk toward you.

cheers


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 09 October, 2020, 05:50:00 PM
After a week of banging my head against a brick wall with the electrics I thought Iíd get back to some trim work.

The new rear reflectors arrived so I fitted them and then fitted the stainless steel trim around the rear panel and on the boot lid.  Thatís the rear end of the car finished except for the boot lock that wonít fit - so some more head scratching there.  Original rear lights, badges and number plate lights all cleaned up well, as did replacement, but used, bumpers and stainless trim.

I had installed the exterior door trim with window scrapers (furry weatherstrips) some time back, so decided to press on with the interior scrapers.  I had bought new door top trims expecting them (naively I guess) to be straightforward to fit.  Wrong! They came slightly oversize and needing trimming and thinning in a few places as you can see from the pictures.  After some nerve wracking work with a scalpel they were shaped and ready to fit.  

I attached the scrapers using the process that had worked well on the exterior ones: Truf-Flex bonding adhesive sparingly applied, clamped with bulldog clips while curing, then three small screws to each with the excess trimmed off with a Dremel.  After 24 hours curing I fitted them to the car, applying a sheet of thick plastic as water barrier first.  Finally, I fitted the small escutcheon plates that cover the leading edge of the door.

I had planned to carry on and fit the passenger side door card as that door is already attached to the car, but I discovered that the backing hardboard is slightly over-sized and too curved at the top to slot under the stainless trim strips for their entire length - so I will have to un-staple and peel back the covering and modify them.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 10 October, 2020, 10:08:12 AM
Looking at the picture of your tangle of wires near the fuse box it is clear that this Fulvia does not have the standard CEAM brown electromagnetic relay (on the right side of the spaghetti junction). The unit you have was fitted to late models and is known to be very dodgy. Although difficult, I suggest you to search for the CEAM unit even if used as it can be readily opened, cleaned and it never fails, Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 10 October, 2020, 11:08:56 AM

Thanks Andrea, that's interesting.  I have a spare sidelight solenoid which I had already bench tested to keep as backup.  I'll fit it and see if it makes any difference.  Worth doing anyway given your comment about reliability.  I'm also thinking of replacing the fuse rack at the same time as the connectors on this spare one are in much better condition than the one that's on the car. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 10 October, 2020, 03:23:54 PM
I don't wish to increase confusion about light wiring. However, fuseboxes respond very well to careful cleaning and polishing with small files.
On my S2 cars the connections on the CEAM relay are as follows (and they do work OK). From front to back starting from the LH side:
1= red and black leads
2=grey-black
56B = I cannot see it without taking out the unit
73 = red and red leads
49= white
56b = yellow
56a= black and black leads
56= white-black

These are the original connections.
Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 10 October, 2020, 05:26:03 PM
Andrea - good point on cleaning the fusebox.  The fuse rack that I pictured above has been very carefully cleaned with a brass wire brush and emery paper.  I'll clean up the wires and their connections as I transfer them from the old fuse rack to the new one.

Your sidelight solenoid wiring is different to my S2.  I have only 8 wires connecting to the 7 tabs.  That is consistent with the wiring diagram that is in my owner's manual.

Transposing those wires onto the equivalent terminals on the replacement CEAM solenoid gives the following, starting top left and working around anti-clockwise:

1 - Red wire, power in from fuse 8
2 - Brown wire from slider switch on lighting stalk
The above two wires make up the activating circuit for the internal solenoid

73 - Red 1.5 wire, power in from 7
49 - White wire, power out to Fuse 1 (and hence Fuse 2)
56B - Yellow wire, power out to Main Beam solenoid
The above 3 wires are the circuit activated by the solenoid

56b - Two Blacks, one to earth on dashboard, the other to cigarette lighter
56 - White/Black wire from column stalk
These wires provide the earth path to the column stalks

As you see, I have bench tested the solenoid to confirm these connections. I'd be interested to know if you see any errors in what I've laid out.



  


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 10 October, 2020, 06:16:57 PM
In fairness I did not check where the various wires come from, although I confirm that this is a correct arrangement on my cars. Everything works OK and it has done so since I pulled out the dodgy unit (a problem often found in other friends' cars). Maybe for the British market the wiring system was changed.
To check for the connections I will need a bit of time, i.e. I cannot do it straight away, Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 10 October, 2020, 06:38:27 PM
Donít worry Andrea, from the bench test Iím confident that the wiring is correct. I think youíre right about differences for the UK market. Ciao.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 11 October, 2020, 07:30:31 AM
Donít worry Andrea, from the bench test Iím confident that the wiring is correct. I think youíre right about differences for the UK market. Ciao.

My experience is the S2 UK market had H4 main dip and side light on the outer light unit and a switched pair of inner driving H1 lamps. I have yet to see a wiring diagram with H4. Maybe someone can disabuse me of this or provide the circuit.... Not sure about UK S1


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 October, 2020, 08:14:08 AM
Yes Tim, what you describe is also true of my car (UK spec S2):  low and main beam in the outer lamps; inner lamps as driving lamps, switched from the dashboard and operated via a relay tucked up behind the right side of the dashboard.  And none of this is reflected in the wiring diagram in my ownerís manual.

As you can see, the discussion with Andrea is focused largely on the sidelight solenoid.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 October, 2020, 04:23:06 PM

Trimmed the two door cards today to get rid of the excessive curves along their top edges that stopped them fully tucking under the stainless steel retaining strips. Removed the staples and peeled the covers back.  Used the old door card as a template to scribe the line.  Then cut through with a sharp knife, with a metal rule underneath for protection.  Re-glued the covers back on.  They are now weighted down while setting overnight.  I'll fit the passenger one tomorrow, weather permitting.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: my69S1 on 12 October, 2020, 08:19:17 PM
Norm, I have been following your thread diligently as many of the things you are doing I will be doing at some point.  Right now I am removing my headliner and was wondering if you can think back, how did you remove the rods.  I've unscrewed the 2 supports at the front and one at the back.  The headline has been pulled back all around so I can see the rod ends and I've tried pushing up on the centre to get them to bend but they are tight against the roof.  How do I get them out?  Thanks.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 October, 2020, 10:11:01 PM
They can't arc enough while in the vertical position. You have to swivel them away from the roof and then pull them in from the sides.  You'll then have the clearance for them to arc enough for one end to pull out.  Start with the front one and swivel it towards the rear of the car, or start with the back one and swivel it towards the front.  Label the rods as you remove them as theyíre not all the same length.  Good luck with it.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 October, 2020, 11:11:38 AM

Well the replaced sidelight solenoid seems to have fixed a couple of the problems I had with the lighting circuits.  I'm now getting power to fuses 4 and 5 with main beam switched on which I wasn't with the old one.  Also, the low beams are now coming on consistently when activated whereas they were intermittent before. My main beam filaments are still not coming on, but I can now investigate the downstream part of the lighting circuit from the fuse panel to the lighting units.

Andrea suggested that the sidelight solenoid fitted to my car was the model fitted to later Fulvias.  Mine must have been either a pull-ahead factory engineering change or a retro-fit.  It's easy to see how the original CEAM unit would have been a target for cost reduction by the Fiat engineers.  You can see in the pictures how much smaller (and flimsier) the newer unit is.  One plus point though is that it made maintenance access much easier with all connectors on the forward facing surface.  That would have been attractive to the service department.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 October, 2020, 05:23:43 PM
I decided to finish building up the passenger door today as Iím as Iím held up on electrics at the moment!

I fitted the interior pull handle and connected the cable up to the lock.  Iíve shown a picture of the two small brackets that hold the cable inside the door skin.  Iím sure thatís too much detail for most of you but there are a couple of people following this thread who are building Fulvias from boxes of parts who appreciate the help in identifying components.  The screw head for the first of these brackets can be seen to the left of the aperture in the first picture.  

My car came with the door stays in the boot and no hardware so I made up some slotted metal and rubber washers to match the TAV pictures.  

The rubber surrounds to my door push buttons had gone brittle and were breaking up.  I bought new ones but the holes in them were too small to get the buttons in - so useless and have been returned.  I found that a standard grommet could be used if the lower edge was bevelled with a sharp knife.  Iíve shown the dimensions in the pictures.

Having trimmed the tops of the new door cards (see earlier post), I found that other adjustments had to be made.  The openings for the interior door handles had to be enlarged, and around four of the holes around the perimeter of the cards used for the trim pegs had to be elongated.  I used the original card as a template to see which holes would need modification. After initial approximate adjustments were made I found that tucking the card under the top stainless trim strip and then temporarily holding it in place with the two screws for the armrest allowed the trim pegs to be inspected as they lined up against the receiving sockets.  The perimeter of the card stood proud by about 15mm due to the pegs protruding.  The resultant gap allowed inspection and measurement of any final adjustments.  I was able to note which pegs needed to be moved further or swivelled into position.

After fitting the card I attached the original window winder, arm rest, and lock cover plate, all of which had cleaned up well.   Finally, I fitted the door jamb cover plate which Iíd had repaired as the bottom few inches had corroded away.  I found that I had to remove both internal and external weatherstrips in order to do this as the plates are a tight fit.  They certainly make the door openings look a lot more finished.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 16 October, 2020, 05:35:21 PM
Don't worry Norm, we love the detail !


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 16 October, 2020, 06:12:30 PM
It's all lovely work Norman and a pleasure to watch. I always consider the fine detail is useful to people contemplating any dismantling as they can see all the hidden detail.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Keithver on 17 October, 2020, 11:31:08 AM
Keep the detail Norm. I am one of the ones busy with mine. I've got loads of bits and pieces that need identifying. You have helped with those four little clips. Now I know where they go. Thanks. You are an inspiration. Keep it up. Your car is looking fantastic
Keith


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 October, 2020, 04:00:17 PM
I mentioned Iím stuck with my electrics.  The problems are with the lighting circuits.  The sidelights, indicators, hazard flashers and low beam headlamps all seem to be working correctly.

The problem is with main beams not working.  The three lighting solenoids: sidelight, low beam and main beam, are heavily interconnected.  They sit behind the fuse rack in the fuse panel.  

I have already replaced the late-model 7-pin sidelight solenoid for the earlier CEAM type in order to fix erratic behaviour of low beam.  But it has had no impact on the main beam problem. I am not getting any power to Fuse 5, which in turn feeds fuse 6, and which together feed the main beam circuits.

It looks like the changeover switch is not working (or not working consistently) in the 5-pin main beam solenoid.  That means that when the lighting stalk is pulled down and forward, power is still fed to the low beam solenoid (via pin 5) instead of switching over to pin 4 and feeding fuse 5 (and hence fuse 6) to feed the main beam circuit.

I do not have a spare 5-pin solenoid, but I do have a 4-pin one.  I have bench tested it to make sure it works correctly, and will wire it in tomorrow to try it out.  To wire it in means changing the interaction between low and main.  With a 4-pin main beam solenoid, the high current input from fuse 7 flows to the low beam solenoid and then on to high beam (which interestingly is what my wiring diagram shows), whereas in my car, with a 5-pin main beam solenoid, fuse 7 feeds power to the main beam solenoid, and it is forwarded from there to the low beam solenoid.  So I will have to simulate that arrangement.

I will report on how I get on with this.

The main reason for this post, apart from providing an update, is to ask about voltages at the fuse rack.  With my very limited knowledge of  electrics I donít know whether the voltages that Iím seeing at the rack are correct or not.  The table below shows what voltages Iím getting at fuses 7 (constantly on) and fuse 3 (for low beam) and fuse 1 (for sidelights).  Start point is a battery voltage of 10.8.  Iím having to take the battery indoors for recharging every so often, so 10.8 volts reflects current state of charge.  

Should I expect to see a drop in voltage at fuse 7 when fuse 1 is activated via sidelight slider switch?  And should I see the further drop in voltage on fuse 7 and drop in fuse 1 when fuse 3 is activated via pulling the lighting stalk down?  These voltages were all recorded without the engine running (as fuel system is not connected yet).



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: davidwheeler on 17 October, 2020, 10:10:53 PM
You should not see any significant drop in voltage as things are switched on but that may be due to the knackered battery that is just unable to take even a small load without a drop in voltage. .As voltage is so low your battery is poor.  Nearer 12.5 volts should be shown on a charged battery at rest.   Go and buy a new battery for a start, that one is clearly shot.  If you run the engine, you should then see 14.7 volts or very near.   The voltages at all    the fuses should also be very near 14.7 volts.  Either you have a lot of very dirty connections in there, in which case no wonder nothing works as it should or it is the state of the battery.   If a new battery does not help then a spray of switch cleaner in the switches may work wonders otherwise you have to take it all apart and clean it - but first check that all the connections are clean and sound.       


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 October, 2020, 10:42:19 PM
David, thanks for your input. The battery only charges to 12 volts so it sounds like it is time to buy a new one. The car is not running yet, so I carry the battery 100 yards to charge it indoors (no power in the garage). It has dropped from 12 to 10.8 volts while Iíve been carrying out electrical checks over the last three days.

I assumed 10.8 volts would be sufficient for testing the headlights, but I guess I was wrong. The wires that carry the current from fuse 7 to  fuses 1 and 3 via the solenoids have been checked and all connectors scrupulously cleaned with wire brush and emery paper.

Iíll do the main beam solenoid test tomorrow and then decide how to move forward. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 October, 2020, 02:32:58 PM
I labelled the wires in the fuse panel and removed the fuse rack today, and started working my way through the wires, inspecting each and cleaning the connectors.  So far just one wire looks problematic.  It's been covered in tape which, when removed, reveals three or for breaks in the casing. It will need to be replaced.  Tricky, as it is paired with a very thick red wire that may make it beyond my crimping tool's capability!

Interesting to see the design differences between the fuse rack that I've removed and the cleaned up one that I'm replacing it with.

 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 18 October, 2020, 04:17:50 PM
Hi Norm,
As you know I`ve been rather busy at Silverstone the last 3 days. so had no input on your problems. As david suggested, get a new battery, fully charged as a good datum point. Also bear in mind what I told you in my PM, having a reading of 12 volts doesn`t necessarily mean it will carry the load. You need a working headlamp, or something similar, to check the load carrying capacity of the various circuits.
Have you earthed the green wire at the White connector block from the lighting stalk? That will bypass the stalk contacts we talked about, in case they are not closing when you pull the stalk towards you.

Let me know tomorrow as I have a day at home.

Cheers John


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 19 October, 2020, 07:00:13 PM
Thanks John.  I'll try that green wire earthing test as soon as I have the new fuse rack installed and everything connected up.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 20 October, 2020, 05:48:46 PM

I cleaned all the connectors in the fuse panel today.  I found the best approach to be a wire brush, followed by sanding the inner surface with a thin strip of emery paper - using a needle file to slide it backwards and forwards.  I then applied heat-shrink tubing, and I replaced the one damaged cable that I'd found.   I cleaned up and painted the angled plate that holds the solenoid cluster and then reconnected everything.

I decided to refit the original sidelight solenoid having carefully bench tested it.  I can always change over to the CEAM unit if necessary, but the original unit makes testing easier as all connectors are on the front face and are relatively easily accessible.

I can restart the testing of the lighting circuits tomorrow in the knowledge that that all wires are sound and all connectors thoroughly cleaned.   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 20 October, 2020, 06:33:42 PM
You won't regret the efforts made cleaning connections .... that and proper earths make a huge difference



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 20 October, 2020, 07:13:50 PM
That looks brilliant Norm, very neat and lovely clean connections.
Good luck with the testing tomorrow.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Neil on 20 October, 2020, 07:40:51 PM
Norm, very neat a job I never quite finished to get my up and running in 2013, one day I must tidy the wires in the fuse box, I am sure it will all work brilliantly now.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Keithver on 21 October, 2020, 09:45:11 AM
Hi Norm. I don't know where I found this originally, but came across it in my filing system this morning. You are probably beyond this, but here it is anyway (attached Below). Hope there is something useful in it
Keith


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 21 October, 2020, 12:03:09 PM

Thanks Keith - I do already have that document, and have found it very useful.
Cheers, Norm


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: peteracs on 23 October, 2020, 10:07:27 PM
Hi Norm

If you still have connection problems, it may be the actual crimp connections which will need the connector replacing. I tend to tin the wire with solder, crimp the connector onto it and then solder the wire to the connector. A bit belt and braces, but makes sure the connection is good with the wire.

Peter


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 24 October, 2020, 03:32:29 PM
Thanks for the advice Peter. Soldering is not a skill that I have, but I've got the equipment so must teach myself.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: davidwheeler on 24 October, 2020, 10:00:57 PM
It is not difficult.  Make sure everything is clean, you have flux cored solder and, most important of all, that you get things hot enough, I suggest a Weller 40 watt iron for small jobs like this.   The solder should flow freely.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 25 October, 2020, 09:44:35 AM
Ref. soldering Norm, on some of the older wiring make sure you remove the verdigris that builds up sometimes, get the wire clean and shiny.  Also when soldering terminals to cable, heat the terminal NOT the cable.

Good Luck.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: andyps on 26 October, 2020, 01:05:22 PM
Your fuse block and solenoids look great, the wires on mine are filthy with the colour not being clear with some of them - cleaning them and all the connections is next on my list of jobs to do. One thing I'm still trying to figure though is which solenoid is where, the wiring diagram is completely useless for that without following wires all round the car! Are the solenoids/relays by the fuse board for the lights?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 26 October, 2020, 05:07:06 PM

Hi Colin - the three solenoids are behind the fuse rack, inside the hinged panel. The two smaller ones on the left side are: on the top, Low Beam, reference 30 on an S2 wiring diagram, and underneath that is Main Beam, reference 32 on the wiring diagram.  The larger solenoid, with 7 connectors is for Sidelights and is located on the right hand side, reference 31 on the wiring diagram.

The three are shown together at the top  right of all S2 and S3 wiring diagrams. Note that reference numbers are different on the diagrams for some other versions - such as S3.

I spent a lot of time understanding the interaction between the three solenoids and bench  testing them individually, and I put together some diagrams to make things clearer.  Iíd be happy to share them if of interest.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Scott on 26 October, 2020, 05:28:49 PM
This is definitely going on my to-look-at list! Coming back from a trip in my Fulvia in the dark I had a nightmare as with main (dipped) lights on then every time I hit a bump in the road there'd be a 'click' and the lights would go out. Onto full beam then okay ... but angry flashes from oncoming motorists quite understandably. So the whole journey was spent between Russian roulette with the lights / road bumps vs. dazzling my fellow road users! Not the usual fun Fulvia outings I'm used to! Sounds like a solenoid...!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 26 October, 2020, 07:36:51 PM
If the lights go out when hitting a pothole, one likely cause is the loose fixing of the lights unit to the steering column. This must be quite tight, Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: andyps on 26 October, 2020, 10:13:37 PM

Hi Colin - the three solenoids are behind the fuse rack, inside the hinged panel. The two smaller ones on the left side are: on the top, Low Beam, reference 30 on an S2 wiring diagram, and underneath that is Main Beam, reference 32 on the wiring diagram.  The larger solenoid, with 7 connectors is for Sidelights and is located on the right hand side, reference 31 on the wiring diagram.

The three are shown together at the top  right of all S2 and S3 wiring diagrams. Note that reference numbers are different on the diagrams for some other versions - such as S3.

I spent a lot of time understanding the interaction between the three solenoids and bench  testing them individually, and I put together some diagrams to make things clearer.  Iíd be happy to share them if of interest.

That is really helpful, thanks. If you can share the diagrams that would be much appreciated.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: davidwheeler on 26 October, 2020, 10:53:43 PM
Baker's Soldering Fluid helps in the final cleaning of multicore wire.   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 27 October, 2020, 05:52:42 PM
Thankyou chaps for the soldering hints.  That's my next rainy day project.  The new battery arrived today, a 45Ah Varta, so I can restart my electrical fault finding tomorrow.

In the meantime I've been working on the dash.  I fitted the lower left crash pad section and the handgrip.  The "Fulvia" script plaque needed some work to smooth out the cutout that overlaps the clock as it had been butchered by the previous owner who had fitted it behind rather than in front of the clock (different radius). The refurbished wooden dashboard has been installed, but sits a bit lower than it should, exposing the edge of the housing above the speedometer.  I'll pull it out tomorrow and see if I can realign it better.  The dry-fit of the dash top has shown that it sits fine along the top edge of the wooden panel.  That just leaves the bottom right section and column shrouds to fit.

Something of a milestone to see the dash in place, and quite satisfying!



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 27 October, 2020, 06:01:07 PM
When soldering wet the soldering iron with solder to aid heat conduction to the work piece.

What has happened to your rev counter. Seems a "stop" is missing??

I am going to try to restore my wooden dash over the winter. I hope I can get as good a finish.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 28 October, 2020, 06:12:55 PM
Major breakthrough today!  With the new Varta 45Ah battery fitted I ran through the testing of all lighting circuits and measurement of voltages on the affected fuses.  All the circuits are operating as they should now: sidelights, low beam, main beam, day flashing, indicators and the new hazard flashers.  All bulbs are shining brightly, and the dashboard warning lights all come on when they should.

As David and John pointed out, I was chasing my tail with the below-par battery.  I couldnít see how 11.2v could be so massively different for testing lights to the 12.2v on the new battery. Itís all about amps I suppose. John recommended linking the old battery directly to a headlamp to see if would take the load - and it wouldnít!  The sidelight came on but just a faint glimmer on the low and main beams. So I saw the light, literally and figuratively.  

On the plus side I learned a heck of a lot while wallowing around and tracing and re-tracing circuits, and it convinced me to do the thorough overhaul and cleaning of the wiring and connectors in the fuse panel. As a result, I now know the purpose and routing of each of those cables, and the interaction of the solenoids, which could all be very useful in the future.

Iíve fitted the lower right dash pad and tidied up the under dash cabling on that side, and fitted the flasher switch back in place.  I tried to fit the column shrouds but it looks like the top one has to go in before the wooden dash.  Iím planning to take the dash out anyway to better align it, so can do it then.

Having reached this point I will spend less time lying on my back in the front footwells so I was able to install the front seats, and will now proceed to fit and trim the driver-side door.

I still need to investigate the rev counter.  As Tim pointed out, the needle is out of position.  I donít know whatís happened there because I removed the original rev counter for that very reason, and replaced it with one from a spare panel. Work to do.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 28 October, 2020, 08:10:20 PM
Front seats are huge step Norm! You're not far off putting the key in the ignition and starting her up! That'll beat sitter there, steering wheel in hand making vroom vroom noises!
Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 28 October, 2020, 08:59:45 PM
Great job Norm! It was worth all the head scratching because that`s how we all learn. You need a problem sometimes so that you can figure out the solution. If it was too easy, people like me would be out of work. :)
Regarding the top column shroud, you could have loosened the column bolts and dropped it down.

Keep up the good work!

Jaydub.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 29 October, 2020, 09:58:16 AM
Norman,
Looking great, your next project is a book detailing how to restore a Fulvia Coupe.!
I'm sure you'd get plenty of buyers, even if they don't anticipate restoring one..
Put me down for a copy.
Brian
8227 : 8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 29 October, 2020, 06:33:36 PM

Great idea Brian but I doubt I have the skills to pull it off!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 29 October, 2020, 06:34:19 PM
Todayís conundrum.  Iím now looking to hook up the fuel supply.  

I have two drain plugs - one with no filter and the other with a crudely made gauze filter that is blocked over most of its surface. Following the discussion earlier in this blog, I bought an in-line glass filter on Ebay and am using the cylindrical gauze filter from it to fit to the better of the two drain plugs.  I also bought some Hylomar Blue gasket sealer to seal the bottom of it against a disc of nitrile rubber on the drain plug base.  The Hylomar is fuel resistant.

Now hereís the problem.  When fitting the drain plug I have to ensure that the opening in the top of the gauze filter fits over the pick-up tube in the tank.  If I donít, I could miss it completely which would invalidate having the filter in the first place, and could damage the pick-up tube.  But measuring the distance of the end of the pick-up tube to the base of the tank with a wooden dowel shows about a 35mm gap, so my gauze filter has to bridge that gap and then some to locate it.   Also, that gap does not seem right as it would leave an awful lot of petrol in the tank when the pick-up stops picking up.  

Can anybody tell me what the correct gap is from pick-up tube to base of tank?

I wonder if I could push a short length of fuel line onto the tube to extend it.  It would have to be held with needle nose pliers, and have to be of the right internal diameter to fit over the tube, and tight enough to remain there.  May not be possible to push into position.

Worst case scenario if I do nothing is that my range on a full tank is reduced, and if I canít fit the gauze filter and will have to rely on the upstream inline filter in the engine bay to collect any debris.

Would appreciate any thoughts on this.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 29 October, 2020, 06:48:19 PM
What is the o/d of the pick up pipe (8mm). A possible solution would be to buy some thin wall stainless or brss tubing with the same i/d as the o/d of the pipe for the extension and use a loktite bearing fit product to secure. Should look to overlap by c10mm. I would drill 4 holes at the bottom just in case it dropped down and sealed off the fuel pick up....


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 29 October, 2020, 07:30:45 PM

That's an interesting suggestion Tim but I'm not sure it would work.  It's difficult to get an accurate measurement of the tube, and it looks like it's not completely circular and I can't see how I could get to it to shape it.  Also, the extension tube would have to be very close in diameter as I'm assuming the Loctite would only bridge a narrow gap.  I was thinking something with some flexibility would be better.  Could even put a short incision in it to help start it off, then push it up maybe.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 30 October, 2020, 12:13:16 AM

That's an interesting suggestion Tim but I'm not sure it would work.  It's difficult to get an accurate measurement of the tube, and it looks like it's not completely circular and I can't see how I could get to it to shape it.  Also, the extension tube would have to be very close in diameter as I'm assuming the Loctite would only bridge a narrow gap.  I was thinking something with some flexibility would be better.  Could even put a short incision in it to help start it off, then push it up maybe.

Norman,
After I put Fay back on the road I had a lot of rubbish getting through from the tank, even though it had been washed out.
To the best of my knowledge the filter in my tank has never been changed in my ownership.
I bought a filter from Omicron back in the early 2000's but I've never fitted it, as I've always been a bit scared to undo the drain plug!
So I bought a filter king and fitted it on a bracket mounted on the offside inner wheel arch.
Since then I've never had a problem with dirty fuel, so I'm not too worried about not having  the filter in the tank, original equipment or not.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 30 October, 2020, 09:20:32 AM
On reflection I am with Brian with a pragmatic approach. And a spare 5 l can in the boot until you find the range of the tank. At least it wont try and suck the bottom of the tank. I always recommend (contentiously) to keep a full tank of fuel when garaging esp if the garage can reach hi humidity. Stops the tank from rusting further.... with consequential rubbish generated in the fuel system. A range of a 1.3 Fulvia is impressive on a full tank.... 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Keithver on 30 October, 2020, 10:11:48 AM
Norm, What about grabbing the wall of the pipe (as opposed to the diameter) with long nosed pliers and pulling gently. There is a lot of play in the pipe as it is only fixed where it leaves the tank. I had to manipulate the return line through the plug hole on mine, as it was blocked solid. Moving both of the pipes was easy enough
Keith


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 30 October, 2020, 05:25:14 PM

Thanks chaps for the input on the fuel tank drain plug. I tried with needle nose pliers to pull down the pipe but there was no give in it at all.  I'll experiment a bit more with flexible hose before resigning myself to leaving it as it is. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 30 October, 2020, 05:26:32 PM
A bit more electrical work today.  I linked the inner lamps in to the main beam circuit so they now come on when main beams are activated rather than manually via a switch on the dashboard.   And I connected the radiator fan to the dashboard override switch Iíd wired up a while back, and the fan, which was repaired some time ago, is working nicely.

A couple of people have asked me (on Facebook) how the after-market hazard flashers have been wired, so Iíve loaded an annotated wiring diagram showing how the six wires were connected.

Finally, I removed the dashboard to have a look at the rev counter to see why the needle is off the gauge at the bottom.  

First I examined the one I removed some time ago - because it had acted erratically in the car, and the needle was off the stop.  There doesnít seem to be any physical stop on either outside or inside. I found that the needle could be gently rotated without any force to speak of being applied, if the moving part at the rear was held still. I moved it into what looks like about the right position and the needle seems to move freely from there.

The one that I had replaced it with, which Iíve just removed from the car, does not seem to act the same way.  Iíll pull it out of the binnacle tomorrow for a closer look.  I may end up reinstalling the original one.  I had removed it for two reasons: the needle was off the scale, and it had behaved erratically when I last drove the car.  The erratic behaviour may well have been a consequence of the corroded condition of the circuit board which of course has since been refurbished by careful sanding. The circuit board in the picture below is my spare one - which is actually in better condition than the original one was before I sanded it!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 30 October, 2020, 06:00:15 PM
Hi Norm,
 for interest`s sake, my fuel pick up pipe is 8.0mm from the tank bottom.

 IMO that neoprene washer is not a good idea for the fuel tank drain plug. It may be fuel resistant but it can swell when in contact with petrol and then possibly contract when dry. I don`t think you can be sure it won`t relax its tension under varying temperatures and then the plug could loosen. I would use a copper washer, that way you can be sure its tight and remain so.
I too think it`s a good idea to have an inline filter in the fuel line, but I`m not sure about having no filtration on the pick up pipe as it could potentially block with sediment before it reaches the filter. Although in your case with a shorter pipe there would have to be lot of sediment to block reach that high!

Jaydub


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 31 October, 2020, 12:03:13 PM
Thanks John.  That nitrile disc that I referred to was intended to go on top of the drain plug with the open-bottomed cylindrical gauze filter (repurposed from an Ebay generic glass in-line filter) held tightly against it and sealed with Hylomar Blue.  I do have a copper washer to seal the plug on the outside.  All of this is a moot point if I can't extend the pick-up tube.  I just collected some 10mm fuel hose to see if that can be used to extend it.   


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 31 October, 2020, 12:08:46 PM

I've had a good look at my original rev counter this morning - working indoors as it's blowing a gale outside.  I've set the needle at the zero mark.   I'm not sure what the "correct" position should be.  I looked at 16 dashboard pictures in my files and found 3 had the needle set at zero, six had it close to 5, and seven were around the 10 mark.  So take your pick! When the needle bounces back to its lowest setting there's no stop, and the needle is not well damped so I guess it may not always return to exactly the same position.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: peteracs on 31 October, 2020, 01:21:25 PM
Hi Norm

I would think the big question with the rev counters is how accurate they are when showing the running engine and the switched off point is of no real interest, other than looks. Can you set it up to some how calibrate it? I do not know how it works so unable to suggest a bench test method, sadly.

Peter


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 31 October, 2020, 01:38:56 PM
I agree Peter, it would be good to bench test the rev counter but I don't know how or whether that can be done.  I assumed, possibly incorrectly, that the start position for the needle would affect the accuracy of readings when under operation. I wish I knew more!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 31 October, 2020, 07:05:56 PM
If you can start the engine and if you have a meter which reads revs when connected to the (-) side of the coil, you can find out if your rev counter is correct. Often it is incorrect. This is just an example of the useful instrument that reads dwell angle as well: Draper Automotive Digital Multimeter - DMM300,Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 05 November, 2020, 04:20:37 PM

Andrea - thanks for that suggestion.  I'll give it some thought.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 05 November, 2020, 04:39:28 PM
Back to the car today after four days of decorating.

I've been thinking some more about the fuel pickup pipe problem.  I've modified one of my two drain plugs to take a gauze cartridge from a generic in-line glass filter, which cost £6 on Ebay.  It's not as long as the original one so I've shortened the two retaining arms.  But it's all to no avail if I can't lengthen my too-short pickup pipe.

I had already bought some new 8mm ethanol-proof fuel hose ready for reinstallation of my Facet fuel pump and regulator.  I tried fitting that over the pickup pipe, but it was too narrow.  So I bought a length of 10mm fuel pipe to try and that is a good tight fit.  It just goes on to the pipe, and by rotating it and applying quite a bit of pressure I could get it to overlap about 30mm.   The problem then is that the pipe is too wide at the other end to fit inside the gauze filter.  I found that I could fit a short length of my old 8mm see through fuel hose into the end of the new 10mm hose by bevelling the edge with a Stanley knife and then sanding it.  It is a very tight fit, and needed a mallet to get it in about 25mm.

So the final step is to decide how long this two-part pipe extension needs to be to fit in the gauze filter when the drain plug is refitted. I'll drill some holes in the 8mm hose so that, in the unlikely event that it slips down, the fuel flow will not be blocked.  I can then reassemble everything with a thin layer of the Hylomar Blue fuel resistant sealer.  Finally, I need to see if there's a way to grip the extension while pushing it and rotating it in place inside the tank.   It may be possible with needle nose pliers.  I'll find out tomorrow. Worth a try.



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 06 November, 2020, 05:58:27 PM

I've been working on the fuel system today.  The mechanical pump was blanked off by the previous owner so my plan is to use a new inline filter, Facet pump and Sytec pressure regulator in that sequence. The Facet and regulator came with the car.  I had considered getting a Filter King but I think all I would gain would be ease of changing the filter cartridge, so I'll stay with the configuration that the car came with for the time being.

I've carried out a trial fit of the various components in the engine bay.  In the picture below you can see that the hose clips are not all in position or fastened.  I'm trying to work out the best position for each component, and am trying to avoid any tight radius bends in the new hoses.  I've fitted the Facet using a new pair of rubber mounting blocks.  The inline filter will sit below and the regulator above.  I've still got to determine the best length and routing for the feed from regulator to the carb assembly.  I guess it will have to drop quite low to avoid obstructing access to the the oil filter. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 06 November, 2020, 07:19:01 PM
Hi Norm , it may be too late if you have already fitted the fuel tank filter, but I took some dimensions from my 1600HF fuel tank. I have attached a quick drawing. It`s not too scale but may help.

Regarding pushing the extension onto your existing short pick up pipe, I would use a piece of tubing or a deep socket and pass it over the 8.00mm plastic tube and push against the 10.0mm hose. That might work.

John


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 06 November, 2020, 07:44:42 PM
That's good timing John. Thanks for the measurements - very useful.    I was looking at it again today.  Turns out there's not enough clearance to fit my fabricated two part extension tube as well as the cartridge filter.   So it seems I have two options, neither of which achieves both objectives: filtering the fuel, and reaching low enough in the tank to pick up most of the fuel.

The first option is to focus on getting most of the fuel out of the tank. I would forget about the filter and fit my two-part extension so that the end of it sits just above the top of the drain plug - in about the same position as yours. I've drilled holes in the pick-uo tube so that it would still allow fuel to flow if the tube were to drop down.

The second option is to ensure that fuel is filtered, and not worry about using all of the tank.  To achieve this I'd have to mount the gauze filter at the very top of the drain plug's arms. It would then just fit over the pickup pipe by a few millimetres, and then as the plug is screwed in this would increase to about 12mm.  To do this I would have to bridge a gap of about 18mm below the filter.  I could use a short piece of the 10mm hose, but I'm not sure the filter would stay in position.  I could maybe use some wire to secure  it in place.

More thought required.  Will look at it again tomorrow, while I'm fitting the engine bay fuel system components.

  


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Dave Gee on 06 November, 2020, 09:07:26 PM
Having read the last four or five posts, I have one concern re the solution you are thinking of doing. If the company is saying that the pipe is compatible with modern fuels, assuming you have bought this as a pipe originally designed to carry fuel, the company may well only be referring to the lining of the hose and not necessarily the outermost layer(s). Over time, it could degrade inside the tank and you won't know about it. If you want to extend the original pipe, you could swage the end of a piece of 8mm copper tube to slide over your existing pipe, and simply work out the length you need before insertion in the tank. If you want to go down this route, I would happily swage you a piece of copper tube. Dave Gee


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 06 November, 2020, 11:00:27 PM

Hi Dave - you make an interesting point. Thanks for your offer ref the swaging. Iíll send you a pm.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Keithver on 07 November, 2020, 08:28:49 AM
Just a thought Norm. I'm not the expert, but if you use your green hose idea (in your last pic), shouldn't you drill holes radially around the end of the pipe where you have tapered it. My feeling is once the fuel drops to the level of the highest hole just below the black pipe you are going to be sucking air and not really going to get the last of the fuel. It looks like you might be defeating the purpose of your exercise. Or have I missed the point. The car is looking great and your attention to detail is inspiring. I hope mine turns out as well as yours. Fantastic job


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 07 November, 2020, 08:37:24 AM
Norman, did you confirm you cannot pull the tank pipe further down with some long nose pliers? Maybe it got pushed up there when a tank plug/filter was reinserted in the past. I  would definitely use a copper washer to seal the plug to the tank.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 07 November, 2020, 12:09:49 PM
Norm, just a thought regarding pulling the pipe down. I would insert a 6.00mm tap into the end of the pipe (8.00mm fuel pipe is normally 6.00mm bore) and pull it down. We remove hollow dowels from engines that way. It might not move too much because it`s in a baffle container inside the tank, but worth a try.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 07 November, 2020, 02:02:10 PM
Thankyou everyone for the interest and advice.  Yes, as mentioned above, I did try pulling the pipe with needle nose pliers and it will push up but not pull down. And yes, there is a copper washer ready for the plug.

I'm actually changing direction to try a different solution.  Dave has kindly offered  to swage and flare a length of 8mm copper tubing for me and I'm going to see if I can fit that.  Watch this space!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Keithver on 07 November, 2020, 02:10:59 PM
Hi Norm. Did you ever take you seat hinges apart for re-chroming? If so what did you do to get them back together


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 07 November, 2020, 02:17:50 PM
No Keith - I decided that replacing those large rivets would be too difficult, and the quotes I was getting for chroming were quite high - about £450 for the two front seats.   I managed to find a reasonable pair in Italy and used them to replace my really bad ones.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 10 November, 2020, 05:08:56 PM


Today I connected up the cables for choke, accelerator and clutch, and fitted new rollers to the accelerator pedal and installed that.

Iíve put the dashboard back in the car now that the rev counter needle is in approximately the right position, and Iíve fitted the upper and lower cowls over the steering column.  One of the mounting points on the upper cowl was missing so I  repaired that with a rivnut set in place with some metal putty and Araldite.  I slackened off the 4 nuts that hold the steering column in order to slide the upper cowl into place.

As soon as the parts I'm waiting for arrive I'll finalise the fuel system installation.



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 11 November, 2020, 10:31:03 AM
I was thinking Norm that when you refit the fuel tank drain bung, it would be the perfect opportunity to refill the tank a litre at a time. With the ignition turned on and fuel pump running into a container, you can monitor (a) when the pump starts to pump fuel and know how low you can go on fuel with your new extended pick up pipe.
(b) you can see if the Low Fuel light goes out at around 5.0 litres as the Handbook states.
Useful information I would think for the future.
Keep up the good work.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 11 November, 2020, 08:35:14 PM

That sounds like a really good idea John.  I will definitely do it.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 12 November, 2020, 06:07:05 PM
I've determined the best locations for the fuel system components and have fitted them all in place.

The swaged and flared copper extension tube that Dave very kindly made up for me has arrived and should do the job.  I've been trying to get rid of the irregularities around the bottom of the tube in the tank, using small files and a tube of emery paper - a bit tricky because of the springiness in the tube and no way to grip it while filing.  I can achieve an overlap of about 12 mmm so will cut the extension tube to length tomorrow, drill some holes in it in case it drops,  and fix it in place with adhesive.

I've had another look at the drain plug filter and decided that the two arms are probably not going to hold the filter in place if there's any lateral pressure from the pick-up tube as the drain plug is rotated into place.  So I've made cutouts either side of the top of the filter - visible in the lower left hand picture - and curled over the tops of the arms a little bit more.  The assembly now feels much more robust.    


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: davidwheeler on 12 November, 2020, 09:26:33 PM
I, too have filters in the tanks of the Fulvia and the Aprilia.    Every now and then I have to go into the boot, take off the rubber tube from the pump inlet (I mount them in the boot rather than the engine compartment) and blow hard down the tube to clear the filter.   One of these days I will scrap the intank filters and rely on easily visible and replaceable inline ones in the boot.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: dhla40 on 13 November, 2020, 09:18:27 AM
Just a few thoughts about the pump location and set up. You appear to have a paper filter going to the pump inlet, these pumps have an internal filter already and this combined with the tank filter and the long pipe run will be very restrictive and make fuel starvation a possibility.

Sean


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 13 November, 2020, 11:06:35 AM
Hi Norm, I have just seen your pump set up. You don`t need the inline filter if you are using the tank filter and Facet pumps have a built in filter anyway. Personally, others may disagree, I think 3.0 psi pressure is too high. We always run 2.5 psi on Race cars and they have a higher demand and subjected to more G forces. Another point, speaking from someone who bears the scars of cuts from Ty-wraps, CUT THE ENDS OFF!
Keep up the good work!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 13 November, 2020, 11:44:56 AM
Hi Norm, I have just seen your pump set up. You don`t need the inline filter if you are using the tank filter and Facet pumps have a built in filter anyway. Personally, others may disagree, I think 3.0 psi pressure is too high. We always run 2.5 psi on Race cars and they have a higher demand and subjected to more G forces. Another point, speaking from someone who bears the scars of cuts from Ty-wraps, CUT THE ENDS OFF!
Keep up the good work!
Just to confirm I have always had the set up as per Norman and found no problem. Regarding pressure the Solex 35PHH manual says 2.0mH20 which is 2.8psi. Given there is a tank return on S2 Fulvias this is to smooth out the mech pump pulses which self regulates to and average c3psi. Once I tried an experiment with my very thirsty 1600 and wound the regulator (filter king with gauge) right down to 1 psi. I could not make the car misbehave. So 2 psi is fine but still the manual says higher.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 November, 2020, 11:55:00 AM
Mmmm, a bit unsure what to do now!  

I've basically repeated the set-up the car came with, but with a new inline filter (replacing the old one) before the Facet.  I didn't know there was a filter in the Facet - presumably accessible via the detachable portion at the bottom.  I had considered a Filter King to replace both filter and regulator as I've seen that setup, with a Facet, on a number of Fulvias.  So they all must have double filtering then!
  
With regard to the Sytec setting, it was set at 2.5 when I bought the car and has been moved accidentally during installation.  I'll put it back to 2.5.  Thanks for pointing that out John.  And, yes, I'll cut off the plastic tie leads.  Good idea.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 13 November, 2020, 01:35:39 PM

A clear filter is a nice thing to have if nervous of an old tank. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 November, 2020, 05:34:46 PM

Now that the electrics are done I won't be spending so much time lying across the front footwells with my legs hanging out of the door opening, meaning that the driver-side door could be fitted.  I steadied the car on a couple of jacks under the front subframe mounts, and wheeled the door into position using my rolling jig.  The  jig enabled me to fit the door on my own without help - useful in lockdown.  Just a little bit of jiggling to do tomorrow to get the gaps right and I can go ahead and get the door trimmed up.

Nice to have a two door car at last!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 13 November, 2020, 05:38:13 PM
Looking really, really good - You won't want to drive her !


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 13 November, 2020, 05:43:18 PM
Norman did you find a source for the rubbery plastic cover or the lower aperture to keep the rain/damp attacking the door card?


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 13 November, 2020, 05:48:59 PM

No Tim - I am just using a thick polythene sheet over the whole inner surface, similar to what was on the car when I bought it.  You've got me wondering now!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 14 November, 2020, 01:03:42 PM
A suggestion from elsewhere on rubber covers was making them from conveyor belt rubber with bits glued on to form steps where they have to be mounted.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 14 November, 2020, 04:00:20 PM

No Tim - I am just using a thick polythene sheet over the whole inner surface, similar to what was on the car when I bought it.  You've got me wondering now!
I would do the same. DPC membrane is ideal with double sided tape.... Have you waxed the inner part of the door??


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 14 November, 2020, 07:07:47 PM
Plastic sheet certainly does the job and is standard from at least Beta onward but this from a Flaminia is an example of what I imagined.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 14 November, 2020, 08:05:49 PM
Tim - yes, I've protected the inside of the door with Dinitrol cavity wax.  The heavy polythene that I've used as a membrane was wrapped around some furniture we bought a few years back. I put it to one side just for this purpose. I used double sided tape to fasten it. Being transparent is an advantage I think.  

Frank - it's interesting to see the Flaminia solution.  I love automotive archeology like this!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 15 November, 2020, 02:21:49 PM
Tim - yes, I've protected the inside of the door with Dinitrol cavity wax.  The heavy polythene that I've used as a membrane was wrapped around some furniture we bought a few years back. I put it to one side just for this purpose. I used double sided tape to fasten it. Being transparent is an advantage I think.  

Frank - it's interesting to see the Flaminia solution.  I love automotive archeology like this!
My 2c has a similar to Frank's Flaminia.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: roddy on 15 November, 2020, 05:48:03 PM
I have always just used a polythene sheeting type membrane and glued the top and two sides with an adhesive sealant.  However along the bottom, I have cut slits in the membrane up to the corners of the aperture so that the membrane could be tucked into and hang down inside the metal panel.  Thus any water dropping down on to the membrane will continue to run down inside the door frame panel and out the drain slots.  Regards -


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 November, 2020, 06:44:51 PM
That is an excellent idea Roddy. Iíll do the same.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: eog on 16 November, 2020, 11:32:12 AM
Sudden thought - builders and decorator seem to be using this thicker sticky cling film

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/353238435418?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-153316-527457-8&mkcid=2&itemid=353238435418&targetid=4584826053363458&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=398226951&mkgroupid=1299622978767076&rlsatarget=pla-4584826053363458&abcId=2145997&merchantid=87779&msclkid=81a026626265103b1cc079d003ca7d7d

maurice


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 November, 2020, 06:08:53 PM

Interesting idea Maurice.  I actually have a roll of that.  It's tacky but I'm not sure it would remain in place long term, so will stay with the heavy polythene sheet.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 November, 2020, 06:10:50 PM

Iíve completed the final step in addressing the fuel tank pickup pipe problem.  I cut the end of the copper pipe extension at an angle (like a quill pen) and drilled some holes so that fuel will still flow if the extension were to come loose. I fixed it in place with JB Weld, which is petrol resistant, even in a continually wet environment. Iíve put a support underneath to keep it firmly in place until fully cured.

I removed the oil filler canister so that I could open it up to remove the ďtime bombĒ disintegrating steel mesh that Neale Shepherd warned about.  Access was easier to the two nuts holding the neck in place than to the two that hold the canister to the neck, so I removed the complete assembly.  Tomorrow Iíll try to lever the top off the canister as others have done.

An unpleasant surprise that I noticed when lying on my back under the car was a small pool of oily liquid under the front rear corner of the (empty and dry) fuel tank.  At first I suspected it was brake fluid but the brake lines and connections all look sound.  Then I found signs of it on the shock absorber piston and rubber boot.  The fluid wasnít there a few days ago and the only activity of the shock absorber would have been while rolling the car in and out of the garage. Interesting that it should fail like that.  So Iím now shopping for new rear shocks. 



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: lancialulu on 17 November, 2020, 06:44:33 PM
Weird failure?! Best rear shocks for Fulvia are DeCarbon design that have been licenced but at the mo production has dried up so quite expensive. Konis are available but a) expensive and b) too hard even on their softest setting. Spax Krypton range work well as you can set them quite soft or hard depending on your driving style.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 November, 2020, 02:14:56 PM
Thanks Tim - I'll take a look at options.   AVO have been suggested as well.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 18 November, 2020, 02:18:05 PM
An interesting morning.  Took the lid off the oil filler can, not that easy to do.  With the can clamped, the first stage was levering up the metal lip by using a screwdriver resting against the filer cap, which required substantial force.  That got the lip about half way open.  Then I used the square shaft of a metal scraper bar held against the filler cap to get the correct angle for the screwdriver to lever the lip all the way clear. Iíll need to tidy the edge up with a file before refitting.

To remove the core, three spot welds in the base had to be cut through.  I donít know if they are standard as Iíve seen no mention of them on previous posts on this subject.  There was no wire inside, but a mass of rusty metal flakes from the surface of the core and can, so I'm glad I took the trouble to investigate.  Time to get the phosphate out and see just how bad the underlying metal is.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 19 November, 2020, 04:35:46 PM
Impressive pictures of the oil canister, although not an isolated case. It can readily occur when the engine does not get hot (short trips, cold winter without front grille protection, lack of thermostat, etc). Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 19 November, 2020, 07:21:46 PM

Fitted the handbrake linkage today.  I decided first to check the adjustment of the shoes. Iíve never done this before, and the repair manual is a bit vague on the procedure.  Iíve included some pictures for anybody else doing the job for the first time. 

I found the inspection holes in the disk/drum but it was hard to see anything inside as everything was black with brake dust!  With a torch I investigated the area around the 6 oíclock position, and found the adjuster wheels at about 6:30.  Probing carefully a with a rag over the end of a screwdriver revealed the silver finish of the adjustment wheels.

The first picture below shows (on the right side of the inspection hole) one of the raised bars on the surface of the wheel.  It is parallel to the ground, and the wheel itself is vertical, at right angles to the side of the car.  There are raised bars like this every seven millimetres or thereabouts, and it is against these that a flat screwdriver can be applied to lever the wheel upwards or downwards.

I temporarily removed the disk brake caliper assemblies so that any drag on the disk wouldnít mask the braking effect of the handbrake shoes.

I wasnít sure which way to turn the adjustment wheel to fully apply the shoes so rotated the wheel fully downwards, using a flat bladed screwdriver levered against the edge of the inspection hole.  That actually fully disengaged the shoes, so I then rotated the wheel all the way up, and that applied the shoes fully.  Then backed off 4 notches per the manual, and checked that the wheel spun freely.

I then got under the car and fitted the connecting rod and lower shroud under the gear lever, and connected this up to the cross cable at the rear. So all done and dusted. 


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Keithver on 20 November, 2020, 06:12:38 AM
Hi Norm. I think I'll open my oil canister today after seeing what came out of yours and others.
Your handbrake lever. Did it have the black handle originally or is it something that you have added. I've looked at mine and wondered if it was correct without a handle. Maybe the thought was that in sunny South Africa, it wasn't needed


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Jaydub on 20 November, 2020, 10:11:05 AM
Norm, presumably after adjusting the handbrake shoes you then adjusted the cable to lock the discs with about 4 notches of the handbrake being applied.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 20 November, 2020, 12:36:55 PM
That was my intention John but poor light stopped play, so itís on the snag list now!



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 20 November, 2020, 12:38:06 PM

Keith - the black plastic handbrake grip was standard on UK spec Series 2 and 3.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 23 November, 2020, 06:37:15 PM
The oil filler can needed quite a bit of work to get the internal surfaces back to bare metal. Then I fitted the core section back into the cannister and tapped the lip down all round, and then a couple of coats of smooth black Hammerite paint.  Installed it back in the car using new gaskets.

Sanded and sprayed the wiper bases, trim rings and domed nuts, and fitted the wiper assemblies to the car.  

In readiness for starting up the engine, I removed the spark plugs and put a small capful of oil in each cylinder and turned the engine over a couple of times manually using a wrench on the nut on the forward end of the crankshaft. It hasnít been started or turned over since mid 2015, so I was pleased to find that it turned quite easily.  While doing this I also fitted a new alternator belt.

My new engine oil, Comma Classic 20W50, has arrived, as did a supply of antifreeze, so tomorrowís job is to fill the cooling system.  The oil change will have to wait until after Iíve got the engine running to warm the oil up.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: SanRemo78 on 23 November, 2020, 08:50:42 PM
Hi Norm - did you know Geoff has a vapour blast cabinet that would have made short work of cleaning that up? Sorry - should have mentioned it!
Guy


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: davidwheeler on 23 November, 2020, 10:54:46 PM
I run mine on 10/40 semisynthetic from the local motor factor.    Gives me excellent oil pressure.     I see no reason not to take advantage of modern technology.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: andyps on 24 November, 2020, 12:21:11 PM
I think I definitely need to open my oil canister. I've got a spare actually so will probably do that one and fit it to the car, and then do the other at a later stage. Certainly doesn't look like it is worth chancing as my engine had been stood a lot longer than yours, although was started a few times just before I got the car and I have run it a little.

I put a relatively cheap 10/40 oil (Halfords semi-synthethic) in mine and plan to change it after a few hundred miles when it should have flushed anything out.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 24 November, 2020, 07:58:22 PM
Not such a good day today.  Started filling the cooling system only to watch it leaking from the radiator. Fortunately I had a bowl ready so caught most of it.  Hard to see exactly where the leak is but it's definitely not one of the hose junctions.  I had it pressure tested abut 12 months ago and it was deemed to be good at that stage.  Looks like I might be heading for a re-core.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 25 November, 2020, 12:17:57 PM

I would appreciate some more advice!

I pulled the radiator out this morning ready to take it back to the specialist.  That's made me wonder whether any of the related devices should be inspected and/or replaced:
- Thermostat
- Water temperature sender
- Fan thermoswitch from bottom of radiator

I have removed the temperature sender and cleaned it, but is there anything else I can check on these three devices, or does it make sense to just replace them?  I don't know how much you can tell from a visual inspection.  When I bought the car a cardboard box that came with it contained a used thermostat suggesting that a new one had been fitted.

Another question is: with the radiator out, I now have good access to the alternator.  Does it make sense to strip, inspect and clean it?



Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: fay66 on 25 November, 2020, 03:02:37 PM

I would appreciate some more advice!

I pulled the radiator out this morning ready to take it back to the specialist.  That's made me wonder whether any of the related devices should be inspected and/or replaced:
- Thermostat
- Water temperature sender
- Fan thermoswitch from bottom of radiator

I have removed the temperature sender and cleaned it, but is there anything else I can check on these three devices, or does it make sense to just replace them?  I don't know how much you can tell from a visual inspection.  When I bought the car a cardboard box that came with it contained a used thermostat suggesting that a new one had been fitted.

Another question is: with the radiator out, I now have good access to the alternator.  Does it make sense to strip, inspect and clean it?


Norman,
If it ain't broke dont fix it!
I'm very wary about thermostats, having bought 2 at £60 each that caused me no end of problems, eventually after a considerable time, I realised there was no bleed hole, drilling 1/16th" bleed hole instantly cured my problems.
I also believe that  in the early 2000's a duff batch were made that has a restricted flow rate.
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nistri on 25 November, 2020, 04:21:40 PM
My own view is to check at least the alternator brushes, the inline fuseholder (near the horns) before the fan switch, the thermostat in a container with hot water to see it opens correctly ideally at 85 degrees, the water temp sender (remove one lead and place it to ground and watch the dial for max temp). It is a fact that aftermarket thremostats are still around (from Peugeot engines) and have a much small water flow unlike the original Savara ones, Andrea


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: Derek Creasy on 25 November, 2020, 04:55:35 PM
Total respect and admiration for everything you have done especially given your limitations . My restorations have been very much easier by comparison having  a reasonably decent close workshop  ; but they still they took much longer than they should have --- Well done .


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 26 November, 2020, 07:14:26 PM
Thank you Brian and Andrea for your suggestions, and Derek for your comments.  With regard to limitations, Iím finally planning to get electricity to the garage having at last got agreement to running cables under communal paths.  About 5 years too late, but better late than never!

Iíll angle more towards Brianís ďif it ainít broke donít fix itĒ philosophy.  Iíve cleaned the temperature sensor, and Iíve tested the thermostat and found that it works fine.  I found the old thermostat that came with the car and tested that and found that it didnít open.  Interesting to compare the two.  I had already replaced the in-line fuse in the radiator fan electrical feed and checked that the fan was working.  Iíll leave the alternator alone for the moment.  With the practice Iíve had Iím now able to remove air box, fan and radiator fairly quickly so am not so worried now about accessibility of the alternator for future maintenance.

Had a closer look at the radiator now that itís out of the car.  Part-filled it and was able to see the fluid escape.  The fins seem dry and it looks like the problem is with a seam in the lower box.  Iíll see what the specialist has to say.  Thereís a vapour blast facility close by the rad specialist so Iíve taken the cam cover off and will have that treated at the same time as the rad is being worked on.  Nice to see the valve gear for the first time.

The two long bolts holding the radiator to the subframe are different.  The left had one in the picture, 84mm overall length,  is correct.  The other sticks out a long way below the car and has no hole for the split pin.  If anybody has a spare one for sale, or even the complete fastener assembly with sleeve, rubber mounts and nut, Iíd be interested in buying it.

Final job today was fine tuning the driverís door to even up the gaps.  Vertical position was about right, but the door needed moving forward a few millimetres.   I found that putting tape on the hinges and marking position of the door helped see the effect of any adjustments made.  To move the door to the right I would leave the bottom hinge fastened and loosen off the bolts in the top hinge.  That allowed the trailing end of the door to be lifted slightly, thereby moving the top of the leading edge forward, using the pencil marks on the tape to judge the extent of movement.  I then fastened one bolt in the top hinge, and repeated the adjustment process this time loosening the lower hinge and lowering the trailing edge of the door to move the lower leading edge forward, again using the marks on the tape to judge the amount of movement. Doing this a couple of times I achieved the result I was looking for. The final step was adjusting the striker plate on the door jamb so that it aligned with the door lock prong.

I can now trim the door (window winder, lock mechanism, door trim card, arm rest, door-open strap, trailing light) which will finish the interior work on the car.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: davidwheeler on 26 November, 2020, 11:22:12 PM
Re. radiator bolt I would think two minutes with hacksaw and file would sort it.  Then use a nyloc nut if you cannot drill the split pin hole.    You can take originality too far you know!


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 26 November, 2020, 11:51:07 PM
Re. radiator bolt I would think two minutes with hacksaw and file would sort it.  Then use a nyloc nut if you cannot drill the split pin hole.    You can take originality too far you know!

Point taken! I assumed the bolt would have been hardened such that it would be too difficult to cut through. Iíll give it a try.


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: dhla40 on 27 November, 2020, 08:55:28 AM
The radiator bottom tank leak is caused by the steel mounting bracket corroding and pulling its spot welds(?) away from the brass tank.  To fix mine I had to remove the bracket and solder brass plates over the many holes in the tank. A bit of a pain to be honest, probably best to find a better rad.

Sean


Title: Re: Report on (slow) S2 Coupe rebuild progress
Post by: nthomas1 on 01 December, 2020, 05:03:02 PM

New shock absorbers fitted.  They are Wiktor brand, gas filled, made in Italy.  I may change to something more sophisticated if I ever drop the front subframe and change the front shocks, in which case I may go for higher end adjustables all round.  These were only £50 each.

The oil leak in one of the originals is visible in the second picture.

Iím waiting for the new radiator to arrive, hopefully by the end of the week.