Lancia Motor Club

General => General Chat => Topic started by: GT on 24 November, 2016, 03:03:53 PM



Title: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: GT on 24 November, 2016, 03:03:53 PM
If you are not doing anything this weekend you could pop over to Milan for an Italian Job lot auction at Fiera Milano put on by RM Sothebys. Over 400 cars up for bids of which there are around 30 Lancia's including engines. The Italian Tax man got their hands on a reluctant payer so took his car collection instead. What a collection and such taste with Aurelia's, Ardea, Beta, Delta, all the F's and even an LC2 and 3 Fulvia engines. No reserve so be tempted.   


http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/lots/?sort=lot&collection=Lancia


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: chriswgawne on 24 November, 2016, 06:55:36 PM
Everyone I know is going! Fascinated to see what the prices are on the day as the estimates all look low to me.
Chris


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: simonandjuliet on 24 November, 2016, 07:01:36 PM
I tried to register to bid yesterday - but (un)fortunately too late to register .....

There is an amazing MotoGuzzi 3 wheel mountain mule

Will be "watching" it online


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: JohnMillham on 25 November, 2016, 03:19:00 PM


Will be "watching" it online
[/quote] I would like to do that, but have no idea how to go about it. Their website doesn't seem to tell me!
Regards, John


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: GG on 25 November, 2016, 03:45:11 PM
Love the 1.2HF for 15-20k. Ha. That's the way to get them in the door and bidding!


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: lancialulu on 25 November, 2016, 06:33:37 PM
To register you need a proof from your bank that you are good for bidding or something - didnt quite understand, also credit card has to cover 25% of the estimate???? As I am watching the England v Argentina tomorrow when certain Fulvias are being sold I hope someone is going to log the hammer prices out of curiosity v their estimates!!!


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Jay on 25 November, 2016, 07:48:07 PM
No live stream, but this guy is putting hammer prices on his twitter feed
https://twitter.com/antonio_brunet
Strong prices for the lancias today


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Parisien on 25 November, 2016, 07:57:19 PM
Thanks for that Jay, didn't see any Lancias mentioned can you let us know what they go/went for? Seems other prices well exceeded estimates, supposing they were correct in first place!


P


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: LouK on 25 November, 2016, 08:50:14 PM
Jason and I are here in Milan for a long weekend and it is very busy.  Stories ofm3 hour queues to register to bid yesterday.  The low estimates have bought every dealer in the world here so very few bargains although to be fair we've only seen a few lots go as we've been checking out cars for some friends.  It is amazing to be able to sit in some rare (and not very well looked after) cars with complete freedom.  We'll take more of an interest tomorrow as there's a couple of cars of interest to us  with no expectation on our side) so will post more info tomorrow evening.


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 26 November, 2016, 06:59:25 AM
Superjolly.


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Parisien on 26 November, 2016, 10:14:41 AM
No live stream, but this guy is putting hammer prices on his twitter feed
https://twitter.com/antonio_brunet
Strong prices for the lancias today


Enlarging the catalogue photos on the twitter feed reveals the sold for prices plus fees etc on top no doubt, so either Sothebys hadn't a clue about what many cars were worth or deliberately reeled in those thinking bargains were to be had! Cars going for 2/5/10 times their estimates is a total nonsense.


P


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: peteracs on 26 November, 2016, 10:29:42 AM
Hi Frank

I think most folk would have guessed that from the off, there is what appears to be a group 4 Beta Coupe estimated around 5-7,000 Euros when you can only just buy an average Beta Coupe for that money in Europe. They would have been as well leaving estimates off from what I have seen.

Peter


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Jay on 26 November, 2016, 10:33:08 AM
I think RM Sotheby’s play it perfectly (commercially that is) tempting bidders (including me) out of the €100 registration fee, giving us all false sense of hope and the bargains to be had.

This auction made some interesting reading, with some predicting that this could burst the current bubble.     


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Parisien on 26 November, 2016, 10:39:48 AM
Indeed Jay, they appear to have "played" quite a few people!

I've not got much of a clue as regards some car prices but items going for 5/10 the amount?!

P


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: chriswgawne on 26 November, 2016, 11:59:31 AM
What has surprised me so far about the prices realised at this auction are those for the various Porsche 911s. Jacky and I are long term 'classic' 911 owners and drivers (30 years +) and consequently   I thought I had a fairly good idea of the market for these both in the UK and Italy but I seem to be wrong. Virtually all yesterdays 911s sold for a lot more than I would have thought (never mind the auctioneers estimates) and I am told that many of the road cars were in typical condition - i.e not especially rust free etc.
I wonder if these high prices will continue through to Sunday pm?
Chris


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: chriswgawne on 26 November, 2016, 12:19:00 PM
Buyers premium is +!2% to be added to the hammer price.
All of the prices I have seen so far from yesterday seem to be 'round' figures so are they hammer prices to which 12% needs to be added?
Chris


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 26 November, 2016, 12:30:29 PM
There is buyers premium PLUS vat to be added to all hammer prices, this equals 22% on top of the hammer price!!


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: LouK on 26 November, 2016, 03:27:49 PM
This is quite astonishing.  The Super Jolly went for an incredible 55k euros!  And a very original B20 with (we understand period race history) went for 300k!  A rally Delta for 220k with the Sainz rally car still to go.  Lots of people with lots of money here!


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: simonandjuliet on 26 November, 2016, 05:39:37 PM
Re transporter, so with fees and VAT that makes 75,000 euros ??


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 26 November, 2016, 05:47:32 PM
I can sort of understand the Superjolly price, but I am a bit bemused by the price of the 1st series B20, the body/paintwork was in very poor condition, the rear lights were in the wrong place (far too high up on the body) and the interior was horrible, plus it had an incorrect steering wheel. However the biggest minus point was the fact that it had a B12 engine. If it had competition history it had certainly had a very hard life.
Interestingly there were several Lancias that had the wrong engine in them, particularly the B20 1st series, both of the 1.3HF Fulvias and the Flaminia Sport. There was though a 1st series B20 engine and a 1.3HF Fulvia engine in a couple of the spare parts lots.
Make of that what you will!!


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 26 November, 2016, 05:50:42 PM
Surely 55K plus 22% = 67,100?


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Parisien on 26 November, 2016, 06:25:36 PM
Surely 55K plus 22% = 67,100?

Fees + commission, then the 22% on top of all!


P


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 26 November, 2016, 06:49:32 PM
I think you only pay the Vat on the commission, so 55,000 X 12% = 6600, added together = 61,600,
then add the vat (22%) on the commission of 6600 which is 1452, add this to the 61,600= 63,052 euro or about £54,500.
Which ever way you do the calculation, its still a lot of money for a Superjolly.

Buyer’s Premium and VAT Clarification
 
1.1   To be clear, in addition to your final bid price, you are responsible to pay a 12% + VAT (22%) Buyer's Premium on all automotive lots (motor cars). All other lots, including, but not limited to, Motorcycles, Pedal Cars, Memorabilia, Boats, Engines, Spare Parts, and Bobsleds are subject to a 17% + VAT (22%) Buyer's Premium..
1.2   Please note that Spare Parts, Car Parts, Tools, Engines Signs, Bobsleds, Racing Go-Karts Memorabilia, and Collectibles are subject to VAT (at 22%) on the full Purchase Price (inclusive of Hammer Price and Buyer's Premium). Please refer to lot information on our website.

 


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: LouK on 26 November, 2016, 06:54:34 PM
Rumour has it (unconfirmed) that the Aurelia competed at the Mille Miglia 5 times in the 50s and still wears its original paintwork.  I will try to find out more.  That would certainly explain the price if it could be proven.  The new owner looks most happy and his colleague bid and won an Integrale factory car at 220k euros.


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 26 November, 2016, 06:59:48 PM
Original paint??? There was so much cracking and crazing the paint looked like it had been put on with a trowel.


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Parisien on 26 November, 2016, 07:01:01 PM
ADDENDUM
Please note that this lot is subject to VAT (22%) on the full purchase price (both hammer price and commission).

So the above only applies to the parts lots or?

P


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Jay on 26 November, 2016, 07:13:05 PM
AUCTION FEVER, just been told the fulvia engines went for €8k, madness


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 26 November, 2016, 07:51:46 PM
I don't think the price for the Fulvia engines was madness, just think about it, there are a couple of people who have just bought Fulvia 1.3HF in the auction, neither of them had the correct engine, but in the Fulvia engine lot there was a genuine 1.3HF engine, so I think they would both have been desperate to buy it!  ;D


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: chriswgawne on 26 November, 2016, 07:55:46 PM
The 1st series B20 which sold for a hammer price of €300k today + fees and VAT is about halfway through the 1st series production run of I think 500 cars starting at B20-1001.
Ours is B20-1269 and I am pretty sure that the production records for the auction car show nothing special when originally built just like ours.
However it may well have run as a privateer entry in the Mille Miglia in period (like Anthony Hussey's B24 Spider) but I wouldnt think this should have any real bearing on value other than it might be accepted for entry in todays Mille Miglia more easily than cars like ours which have no direct Mille Miglia history. Of course to be accepted it would also need the correct engine etc and it certainly isn't in the same category of famous car as the Bracco Olivetti 1st series B20 which was B20-1001.
I wonder whether the auctioneers supplied any info on this before the sale?
Chris


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: chriswgawne on 26 November, 2016, 08:29:34 PM
Ooops!
The Bracco car is B20-1010.
Memory fade here....but thanks Ade.
Chris


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: LouK on 26 November, 2016, 11:01:25 PM
An Aurelia engine (number 1269) was sold as part of a lot with 2 Flavia engines and some Aurelia wheels which went for 21k plus premium and tax on the whole lot.  This was the engine that I was advised by an Italian friend was the original to the car sold for 300k Euros.  And you guesssed it, the buyer of the Aurelia bought the engine lot.  Speaking to another friend who bid up to a certain point on the Aurelia, apparently the auctioneers had the full history of the car (including the 5 period Mille Miglia entires) but were only giving that information out to certain people...

This certainly seems to be an auction that the dealers have got a lot of inside knowledge about hence the high prices and bemusement of us mere mortals.  Agree with Ade re the Fulvia engines - from the state of them I was astonished by the price but if they complete the package of a car then it's understandable.

Not for this forum but what is utterly astonishing our German friends is the prices on the very standard and rough Porsches and very high prices paid for spare parts.  I'm sure there's a story there somewhere...


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: frankxhv773t on 27 November, 2016, 11:49:05 AM
Did anyone look at the Flaminia Berlina? I would be interested in putting the price achieved into the context of its' condition.


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: LouK on 27 November, 2016, 12:12:21 PM
The Berlina was not in great condition and on speaking to an Italian friend he felt the estimate was more in line with its worth.  In fact many "locals" are very bemused about what's going on here...


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: chriswgawne on 27 November, 2016, 01:00:27 PM
When I looked at the image of the Flaminia Berlina on a large screen it looked feathery round the edges to me.
Also there are always nice examples for sale in Italy at what I think are reasonable prices.


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 28 November, 2016, 06:58:44 PM
Results now available:-
http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/results/


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Parisien on 28 November, 2016, 07:17:07 PM
Results now available:-
http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/results/

Fantasy football meets fantasy auction!

P


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: rogerelias on 28 November, 2016, 07:39:59 PM
 :o


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: Parisien on 28 November, 2016, 07:44:13 PM
Fellow Lancisti, just much would you pay for this, in the real world? And a few more to mull over?!

http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/lots/1956-lancia-aurelia-b20s-series-5/1087234

€72,800 plus fees/VAT takes it up to?

The Flaminia 3c Touring appears to be a bit more realistic at €30K

http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/lots/1962-lancia-flaminia-gt-25-3c-touring/1087225

As for the black 1951 B20, given the comments on here plus lack of info on their site, did the catalogue give any clue to its real provenance?

http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/lots/1951-lancia-aurelia-b20/1087182

If again previous posts are correct, relating the engine to the '51 B20, then this lot made a bit of sense.

http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/lots/lancia-engines--parts/1087454

As for the 1968 Lancia Fulvia Sport 1,3 Competizione Zagato, was this another record breaking price?

http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/lots/1968-lancia-fulvia-sport-13-competizione-zagato/1087187

1961 Lancia Flaminia Sport 2.5 Zagato, another high at €291,000 plus ?

http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/lots/1961-lancia-flaminia-sport-25-zagato/1086981



P


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: simonandjuliet on 28 November, 2016, 09:09:25 PM
just scary !


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: chriswgawne on 28 November, 2016, 09:42:46 PM
Don't forget the Ardea @ €30k + fees.
Interesting psychology on the part of the auctioneers I reckon to give very low estimates to get attendees which proved to be very successful.
Of course at a normal auction you couldn't do this as the vendors wouldn't be prepared to have such low estimates and no reserves.
Chris


Title: Re: Sothebys Duemila Route Lancia sale 25/27 Nov.
Post by: chriswgawne on 05 December, 2016, 09:40:23 AM
Regarding the black 1st series B20 with apparent Mille Miglia history which sold for €336,000, according to the auctioneers the chassis number was B20-1246 and the engine number was 2207. This is the incorrect engine for the car as was pointed out earlier in this thread.
In another post on this thread about a later Lot 690 which included a 1st series B20 engine no B20-1269 which sold for €24,570, it was said by the new owners that this engine was the original one for the black car B20-1246 which they had earlier bought.
This is not true.
According to factory records, engine no B20-1269 was originally fitted to car B20-1274.
Chris