Lancia Motor Club

General => General Chat => Topic started by: brian on 21 March, 2016, 11:25:09 AM



Title: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: brian on 21 March, 2016, 11:25:09 AM
A simple question.

I am still struggling to get the Aprilia timed - I am beginning to wonder if the flywheel is actually put on in the right position! - but I thought I would change the plugs as a) they are old and b) all are out so as to see pistons going up and down.
I have NGK B6S at the moment and did not have any particular problems. They are still available for rustic applications (hedgetrimmers etc).
Has developments led to a better option? I know Harry was always keen on NGK!

It looks as if the handbook I have (S2) gives the wrong firing order so confirmation of order for a S1 - and any tips as I would like to get it going for the SPR in June and at my rate of progress this is an unachievable target!!!

Brian


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: JohnMillham on 21 March, 2016, 11:51:08 AM
The safest way is to take the rocker cover off and you will be able to easily see which cylinder is meant to be firing, by looking at the position of the valves. Going by numbers is fraught with danger, as Lancia numbered their cylinders in peculiar ways - and not the same for all models. I favour Platinum plugs these days. Since using them on the Lambda, I have experienced no further oiling up of plugs. The Augusta doesn't seem to be very fussy about plugs, but I use Platinum, anyway.
Regards, John


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: ColinMarr on 21 March, 2016, 09:17:53 PM
Brian,

I doubt if its very complicated to solve. Just take yourself back in time to 1939 and imagine you are the cars first proud owner. You take it to the smartest garage in Derby to have it fixed. The head mechanic there refers to his pristine copy of The Motor Trader Service Data No 52 on the Aprilia, published in November 1938. (See copies of the first three pages attached). He will quickly see on the first page that the firing order is 1-3-4-2 and then on pages 2 and 3 he will work out the markings on the flywheel to set the distributor. He will do this with great precision and the engine will run very sweetly. And you will visit the garage the next day, pay a modest bill and away you go, as befits a man of your station and with the good taste to own such a fine vehicle. Sadly, the car will shortly be laid up for the duration of WWII and nobody would believe that it might still be on the road in more than 70 years time. Oh lucky man!

Colin


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: the.cern on 21 March, 2016, 09:53:51 PM
Colin, that is wonderful!!!!
             
                   Andy


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: BlueSky on 22 March, 2016, 12:37:54 AM
Have also been running NGKB6S plugs, recently installed some Bosch W7AC just to see how they go, so far they are excellent. Has anyone devised a method of removing plugs from the head without them getting smothered in oil? I've tried various bits of cloth and paper towel to soak the oil up but there is always too much on the plugs to check their condition.

If you'd like a readable and complete version of the Motor Trader article I've got one on my website http://www.narrywoolan.com.au/lancia-aprilia/aprilia-publications.html, although Colin's copy is wonderful...

Noel


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: ColinMarr on 22 March, 2016, 09:20:31 AM
For those who prefer to see a little patination through use (but not by me I am sorry to say) here are scans of the remaining three pages.

Oh yes, and just to mention there are some original Aprilia plug connectors (not from the same source!) not doing very much on eBay at the moment see:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/182055641108?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

Colin


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: ben on 22 March, 2016, 02:12:57 PM
As Colin mentioned Aprilia firing order is 1342 where the numbers refer to the cylinders and no 1 is nearest the front etc.
 
In their infinite wisdom when the men from Turin wrote the timing instructions for the handbook they chose to use no 2 cylinder as the reference point---I think possibly because it is the one whose plug connector is nearest the distributor----.
Thus when the timing mark on the flywheel is lined up with the 1/3 (?) mark on the bell housing it is actually nos 2 and 3 cylinder's pistons which are at top dead centre.
The numbers on the bell housing and shown in the wiring diagram,(Tav 18 in S1 handbook and Tav 20 in the S2 handbook) refer to the firing order or sequence and are not the cylinder numbers although nos 3 and 4 happen to be the same!!
Thus we can tabulate;

              "Lancia" firing sequence                         1      2      3      4
               Relevant cylinder                                 2      1      3      4
and repeating this cylinder sequence shows it is the same as 1342 but starting at no 2.           


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: JohnMillham on 22 March, 2016, 03:53:12 PM

              "Lancia" firing sequence                         1      2      3      4
               Relevant cylinder                                 2      1      3      4
and repeating this cylinder sequence shows it is the same as 1342 but starting at no 2.            
[/quote]

 Lancia liked his firing order to be 1234, so he numbered his cylinders accordingly. Augustas and Lambdas are different again from the Aprilia, with the cylinder furthest from the driver called No. 1 on the Augusta and the cylinder nearest to the driver called No. 1 on the (right hand drive) Lambda. As seen from the top, the firing order is clockwise on the Augusta but anti-clockwise on the Lambda and Aprilia. The distributor rotor arm goes clockwise on all of the engines.  It gets more complicated when Lancia produced the Aurelia, where the distributor cap is almost unbelievable, with connections crossing over from one side to the other. Just so Lancia could keep the firing order 123456, I suspect!
Regards, John  


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: ben on 23 March, 2016, 12:45:38 AM
Hi John
         I think you perpetuate the confusion when you say Lancia numbered their cylinders to create a 1234 firing order.
         In the bottom of the Aprilia engine the con rods are clearly stamped 123 and 4 with no1 being at the front and the others following in sequence along the crankshaft. In terms of these numbers the firing order is 1 3 4 2 .
         The numbering of the plug connectors on top of the engine  shown in the handbook wiring diagrams indicate the firing sequence and are best seen as just that rather than seen as redefining the designation of the cylinders.I have to concede however that the instructions for setting the timing in the handbook refer to what is really No 2 cylinder as No 1! In my view the authors of the handbook got confused!!!
         The handbook also states that the cylinder numbers are marked in red on the cam cover.I have never come across an engine thus marked and wonder if anyone else has. and if so are they the true cylinder numbers or the firing order?
                   Ben   


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: JohnMillham on 23 March, 2016, 09:11:22 AM
Hi John
         I think you perpetuate the confusion when you say Lancia numbered their cylinders to create a 1234 firing order.
         In the bottom of the Aprilia engine the con rods are clearly stamped 123 and 4 with no1 being at the front and the others following in sequence along the crankshaft. In terms of these numbers the firing order is 1 3 4 2 .
         The numbering of the plug connectors on top of the engine  shown in the handbook wiring diagrams indicate the firing sequence and are best seen as just that rather than seen as redefining the designation of the cylinders.I have to concede however that the instructions for setting the timing in the handbook refer to what is really No 2 cylinder as No 1! In my view the authors of the handbook got confused!!!
         The handbook also states that the cylinder numbers are marked in red on the cam cover.I have never come across an engine thus marked and wonder if anyone else has. and if so are they the true cylinder numbers or the firing order?
                   Ben   

You might well be correct Ben, but I suspect someone put the rods down the wrong holes! The cylinder numbers are marked on the heads of an Aurelia - and they agree with my theory.
Regards, John


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: ColinMarr on 23 March, 2016, 09:34:14 AM
All of which goes to show how wise was the head mechanic at the English garage in 1939. Having been schooled on English cars from Alvis to Wolselely, when he read that the firing order should be 1-3-4-2, he unhesitatingly read the number sequence from front to back. None of this fancy foreign nonsense for him!

Colin


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: ben on 23 March, 2016, 12:06:41 PM
Hi John
          This debate could run and run!
          According to Peter Renou in the most recent edition of the Australian Lancia Newsletter the Aurelia handbook has conventional cylinder numbering from front to back and a firing order of 1-4-3-6-5-2. Thus the numbers you refer to on the cylinder heads are the firing order for the cylinders and not the cylinder numbers.They are there to tell you where the plug leads connect to as the corresponding numbers are marked on the distributor cap.Fortunately for this engine they start the sequence at No1 so that bit is less confusing than the Aprilia  but as you say any ideas of simplicity are quickly blown away by the design of the distributor cap with its internal cross-overs.Peter suggests this has more to do with achieving a neat layout of the plug leads than anything else and I have to agree with him as it does not achieve any other purpose!
          I think on my first Aurelia (bought and sold as a crash victim) I naively assumed that the rotor fed the sparks out of the distributor in a circular sequence which is why I could never get it to run properly.
          I hope all these musings have not left Brian even more confused.

          Perhaps to put the lid on it we can get Dilambda Man to tell us what the arrangements are on Modestines narrow Vee 8 ?   


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: brian on 23 March, 2016, 04:31:22 PM
After my lie-down followed by a stiff G&T I am ready to try to get my head around this!
In the S2 handbook I quote Page 58 "Rotate crankshaft.. until flywheel tooth with "0" corresponds to A/A [sic and NB!] shown on edge of the spyhole and the valves of No 2 cylinder (the first to ignite) are both closed".

The mark 1/3 is used apparently for valve timing (Page 42).

This from memory is not the same on Augusta where the 1/3 is used for ignition timing.

Thus the front cylinder (No2) should be firing at this point with with second (No1), third (No3)  and fourth (No4) following in sequence to the back (i.e. what anybody else would call 1,2,3 and 4). The Lancia numbering of both cylinders and firing order is clear on page 57.

So do I use the A/A or 1/3?

Isn't it interesting that the simplest of questions seem to generate the most complicated of answers - I found it so in Medicine too.
Brian

PS I will stick to my NGK B6S plugs as cheap and work!


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: JohnMillham on 23 March, 2016, 05:35:15 PM
Sorry to have confused you, Brian. It all makes sense to me, but I'm obviously not very good at explaining it! You are correct in thinking the ignition timing uses the A/A mark, which is a few degrees before the top dead centre of the firing cylinder. The Augusta is the same as the Aprilia in this respect. Note that the firing cylinder is No. 1 or No. 3. (The second or third cylinder from the front of the engine.) Obviously the valves of the firing cylinder will both be closed, while the opposite cylinder's valves will both be very slightly open. That's why it's safest to take the rocker cover off and look at the position of the valves, particularly if the distributor has been removed from the engine and it's not obvious which cylinder is on the appropriate stroke.
I hope that helps.
By the way, the Lambda flywheel only fits in one position, unlike some of the others, but the 1/3 and 2/4 marks are surely referring to the cylinders, not the firing order.
Regards, John


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: GG on 24 March, 2016, 01:46:24 AM
On the Aurelia then -

 the cylinders are 1,3,5 on the left, and 2,4,6 on the right.  But there was a second series of numbers from the cap. There was a reason, but it is some distance from us now.

It all starts at the distributor cap, and is easily misunderstood. The caps and their lead are visually arranged (e.g. aesthetic) so that the plug wires plug in in a good looking way. That makes it hard to know how the sequence is working inside the cap.

So what Marelli did (very likely with Lancia input) was to mark the caps with the firing sequence as it occurs within the cap, not the engine. This runs counter to common experience, where we prefer the engine sequence on the cap, so we can simply plug in the right wires into the right spots. They assumed the user would go an extra step and figure out the connections themselves.

It's odd, even frustrating, but, like most Lancia solutions, not without intent. It was probably it was a bit of overthink by an ambitious underling.


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: Jaydub on 24 March, 2016, 11:38:40 AM
Hi all,
I have little experience of Lancia engines, but I have built a lot of engines including Ferrari`s and being also Italian may have similar numbering systems. On the Lancia V4 No,1 is front left ( sitting in driver`s seat) and is the foremost cylinder.  1/3 mark refers to either cylinder 1 or 3 being at TDC (top dead centre)  If the engine is turned in direction of rotation, the first marks usually to appear before TDC can be AA ( Aspirazione Aperto) Inlet Opens, usually around 30 degrees, for valve timing. Further rotation brings possibly a number, 6, 8 or 10. These are for ignition timing. Further rotation then brings up 0 or PM ( Punto Morto) Dead Centre.

Someone mentioned when the 1/3 mark was aligned that cylinders 2 and 3 were at TDC which is correct, but I think you will find that it is No.3 firing at that point. If it was rotated another 360 degrees and 1/3 aligned again, cyliders 1 and 4 will be at TDC with No.1 firing.
I hope that helps in some way.
John.


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: ben on 24 March, 2016, 04:08:17 PM
Whilst I hesitate to take issue with anyone who builds Ferrari engines I fear your comments may further add to the confusion!
Firstly not all the Lancia narrow vee 4 engines have the front cylinder on the left.
On the Lambda and the Augusta it is on the right!

Secondly for the Aprilia engine the handbook is quite clear that the A/A mark on the flywheel viewing aperture is for setting ignition timing and not valve timing. Only one tooth is marked (with a zero or phi symbol that is not easy to see!!---add a blob of tippex )

Thirdly when the reference tooth is set at the 1/3 position on the Aprilia engine both of the middle cylinders are at top dead centre.
 One is on compression (the firing stroke) and the other is on the change from exhaust to induction, depending on the position of the camshaft (which only rotates half a turn for every full turn of the crankshaft).
Rotating the engine 360 degrees brings the pistons back to the same positions but the one that was firing is now about to start on the induction stroke and the other one is on compression. It is entirely a matter of chance as to which position one arrives at when the timing marks are aligned unless the camshaft lid is off and the valve positions are being observed.

Finally to bring the front and rear pistons to TDC the crankshaft would need  to be rotated half a turn ie 180 degrees.



With reference to GG's observations for the Aurelia as I understand it the user doesn't have to do much figuring out as the numbers on the plug bosses correspond to the numbers on the distributor cap.

 

Referring back to Brians last post, with the timing set to the A/A mark it is one or other of the two middle cylinders that are both approaching TDC that should be firing and NOT the front cylinder.
 The timing can be set by rotating the distributor body anti-clockwise until the points start to open in the usual way,irrespective of which should be firing.
Having clamped the distributor in this position it is time to fit the first plug lead.At this point it does have to be established which of the two cylinders should be firing by observing the cam lobe/valve positions.(The tappet clearances should be "feelable" on the firing cylinder whereas they will both be tight on the other cylinder as the valves are on the "rock"). The first plug lead then goes from the distributor outlet that the rotor is pointing at to the firing cylinder previously identified.
The other three leads are fitted in order following a clockwise sequence on the distributor outlets and an anticlockwise sequence around the plug connectors on the head. 

What could be simpler!!!!!!

PS   It is possible to find the cylinder that should be firing without removing the cam cover (if you don't want to disturb the gasket for instance) by removing the other three spark plugs and feeling for the compression using the starting handle.


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: Jaydub on 24 March, 2016, 04:59:05 PM
Hi Ben,
You got me there! I did say I had little knowledge of Lancia engines and I acknowledge yours completely. You are also correct about rotating it only 180 degrees, and I came back on line to correct myself and saw your reply, thanks. I am still puzzled by the mark (A/A) if it doesn`t mean Asparazione Aperto, what does it mean? It must be Italian?
John


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: frankxhv773t on 24 March, 2016, 09:48:48 PM
At the risk of further complicating issues can I ask about Flaminia engines? Are they as Aurelias and have the numbers harmonised between distributor cap markings and the numbers by the individual plugs?


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: Kari on 26 March, 2016, 09:42:25 AM
In my humble knowledge of the italian language, the mark A/A on the fly wheel means "anticipo accensione" translated "Ignition advance". This mark is 8 before ANY top dead centre on the Augusta and if I'm right 13 before TDC on the Aprilia. This is the position, as described in the handbooks, where the breaker points should begin to open with the engine static. The marks 1/3 and 2/4 are TDC of the respective cylinders and serve for valve timing.

Karl


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: ben on 26 March, 2016, 06:08:43 PM
Thanks for the translation Kari.   That makes perfect sense.

Interestingly  (for Aprilia anoraks!)  the English translation of the handbook issued by Alperton gives the static advance figure as 13 degrees but in both copies of the book in Italian that I have---one pre-war and one dated 1952---the figure given is 10 degrees.

I don't know the answer regarding plug boss and distributor numbering for the Flaminia but it is a fact that Lancia had given up their confusing ways and changed to making the cylinder numbers in order from the front when the got to the Appia and the same is certainly true for the Fulvia.


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: lancialulu on 26 March, 2016, 10:18:56 PM
Thanks for the translation Kari.   That makes perfect sense.

Interestingly  (for Aprilia anoraks!)  the English translation of the handbook issued by Alperton gives the static advance figure as 13 degrees but in both copies of the book in Italian that I have---one pre-war and one dated 1952---the figure given is 10 degrees.

Uk petrol in the day was better than Italian fare I suspect....


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: ben on 05 April, 2016, 11:46:05 AM
I tripped over a spare flywheel in my shed yesterday so thought I would count the teeth and hence clarify the Aprilia static advance question that has undoubtedly been giving you all sleepless nights.

It has 122 teeth making them 360/122= 2.95degrees apart.

And as closely as I can judge the spacing between the 1/3 mark and the A/A mark is equivalent to three teeth and three quarters which when multiplied by 2.95 equates to 11 degrees.

So if one sets the distributor in accordance with the A/A mark as per the instruction manual the static advance will be 11 degrees irrespective of whether the book says 10 degrees or 13 degrees and irrespective of whether you use (current or period!) English or Italian petrol!!


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: brian on 05 April, 2016, 06:15:00 PM
In my naivety I thought engineering was an exact science. On reflection, I suppose it is, but the documentation isn't. Many thanks for the information.
Brian


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: brian on 14 April, 2016, 07:10:41 PM
SUCCESS!

Today with the help of a proper mechanic I got the Aprilia ruuning well. The timing was about right (he congratulated me!!) and the problem was a) a poorly earthed capacitor ?relevant and b) wrong lead order.

So on my car - ?distributor cap original - the set up is as follows:

Going clockwise on the distributor numbers:

No 1 goes to cylinder Lancia No 1 which is second from front
No 3   "     "     "          "     No 2    "     " front
No 4   "     "     "          "     No 3    "     " third from front
No 2   "     "     "          "     No 4    "     " rearmost.

All I need now is for the builders to clear blocks and scaffolding from outside the garage and I can start getting a few miles done before the SPR.

I have now numbered all the leads with the Lancia cylinder numbers so hopefully sorted for ever.

Thanks to all.

Brian


Title: Re: Aprilia spark plugs
Post by: Parisien on 14 April, 2016, 08:33:56 PM
Brian, you have a pm and email


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