Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: RobD on 04 November, 2015, 02:10:36 PM



Title: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: RobD on 04 November, 2015, 02:10:36 PM
 My house has a steep driveway and I've noticed if I park with the bonnet pointing upwards the Fulvia is hard to start. I've traced this to a fuel pump priming issue and nowadays park it on the drive with its bum in the air which seems to cure the problem. I haven't measured the efficiency of the mechanical pump but judging by Moby Dick style plume of fuel it spouts when the carb feed is disconnected from the carb I'd say the pump was in pretty good fettle.
Is this priming issue a common fault?
 I should point out that modern cars struggle to reverse up my drive and it's usually accompanied by a pungent smell of clutch lining. It's quite an incline.


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: lancialulu on 04 November, 2015, 02:57:06 PM
Fulvias do have a priming issue whic I have never really understood as contemporary Alfas with same carbs do not appear (from owners comments) to have this issue and start "on the button". Perceived wisdom is to fit an inline Facet solid state pump or similar, or a more complex parrallel plumbing of same. And a switch under the dash to prime the carbs before starting. The priming pump changes its "rattling" noise as the carbs get full and the excess is being pumped down the return pipe (not 1st Series). I have this on my Fulvia and saves grinding the starter motor and battery to death....


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: fay66 on 04 November, 2015, 04:44:20 PM
Fulvias do have a priming issue whic I have never really understood as contemporary Alfas with same carbs do not appear (from owners comments) to have this issue and start "on the button". Perceived wisdom is to fit an inline Facet solid state pump or similar, or a more complex parrallel plumbing of same. And a switch under the dash to prime the carbs before starting. The priming pump changes its "rattling" noise as the carbs get full and the excess is being pumped down the return pipe (not 1st Series). I have this on my Fulvia and saves grinding the starter motor and battery to death....

Works a treat and well worth fitting.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: RobD on 04 November, 2015, 09:35:06 PM
Funnily enough there's a new-looking Facet pump fitted to the car but not connected. I'd always assumed the pump was there because the previous owner had been running a set of Dells or Webers and had removed them before sale. In desperation when I was looking for the cause of the fuel starvation I hooked the Facet up and it too struggled to prime itself and pull any fuel up.
In desperation I connected a syringe full of fuel to the mechanical pump inlet and gave it a squirt until fuel came out of the [disconnected] outlet to the carbs. After re-connecting everything  the car then fired up readily until left overnight at which point it gave up the ghost again.
I can understand why folks fit Facets but surely these cars ran without issue and would start up easily when new? Is this not just a case of accumulated wear in the system which needs eradicating and bringing up to spec? Or perhaps my driveway is just too steep?
I should point out I am a self-confessed Luddite  and like to keep things simple... ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: lancialulu on 04 November, 2015, 10:37:08 PM
Maybe you have a partial blocked supply pipe maybe at the bottom of the tank where it goes right to the bottom of the tank in a curious filter arrangement (which could be blocked with fine rusty stuff).


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: neil-yaj396 on 05 November, 2015, 07:05:22 AM
Betas suffer in a similar way. I think it is usually that the diaphragm in the mechanical pump becomes weak, or even holed, so much less efficient.

Air leaks can be another issue too. I once had a crack in a plastic filter, which didn't leak fuel, but must have let in air. Once changed it made a massive difference to starting.


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: chriswgawne on 05 November, 2015, 10:25:17 AM
Can I suggest you check both the valves in the mechanical fuel pump, particularly the non return valve? Our GTE starts virtually immediately if it has only sat for a week or less and if it's longer than that it just takes a little longer. That's without choke but pumping the accelerator.
Replacement pump valves used to be available but I am not sure these days.
Chris


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: DavidLaver on 05 November, 2015, 12:32:48 PM

Logically it can only be "draining" rather than "pumping" which would fit with Chris's advice.

In terms of "were they like that when new" is petrol these days more volatile to disappear from the float chamber or less viscous to sneak past the non return valve?

David


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: fay66 on 05 November, 2015, 04:02:08 PM

Logically it can only be "draining" rather than "pumping" which would fit with Chris's advice.

In terms of "were they like that when new" is petrol these days more volatile to disappear from the float chamber or less viscous to sneak past the non return valve?

David
My 2c has never been any different even with a new fuel pump and a filter king, my 1969 Rallye Coupe was the same, and it would seem most Fulvia's are the same, they just churn and churn away but eventually firing, very hard to listen to if you have any mechanical sympathy, no one seems to know why it is, but it is a fact they all seem to do it, with my previous 32 solexes, and my current 32 Dellorto's.
So it's really a case of do you want to ponder the problem or fix it? it's up to you Rob.
Although it does sound like you might have rubbish floating around at the pickup point in the tank.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: RobD on 05 November, 2015, 06:32:24 PM
The rubbish in the tank theory is plausible, although I have to say the tank was drained about 8 months and didn't show signs of mischief. I think this non return valve warrants further investigation... the fact the longer the car is parked the harder it is to start would certainly support Chris's suspicions. Thanks to all for the input, it's very much appreciated.


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: lancialulu on 05 November, 2015, 07:18:43 PM
Even on the level they drain back...... I overhauled my mech pump and got a nice 3.5psi pressure but still had need to fit a small prime pump. The secondary benefit is if the mech pump fails (hopefully the valve as otherwise fuel just goes into the crank case) you have another fuel pump to get you home.


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: davidwheeler on 09 November, 2015, 09:16:13 AM
Fit the Facet and bypass the mechanical pump - I have done this on both my Fulvias and never looked back.    Fit a Filter King as well if you like to regulate the pressure but I have not needed to do this on the Fulvia (but I have done it on the Aprilia as there is no return pipe).


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: chriswgawne on 09 November, 2015, 10:01:34 AM
Over my 40+ years of Aurelia ownership (with generally only intermittent usage of the cars) I have always fitted a Facet typepump with Filter King regulator. However recently I bought some replacement pump diaphragms which I used to be unable to source and, as I had kept the old mechanical pumps, I have started refitting them and fitting switches to the Facet electrical circuit leaving the electrical pump in situ for priming.
Two reasons for this. Firstly I have had 2 Facet failures in the last 10 years and when that happens and it is the only pump, it's a problem unless you are carrying a spare (I was fortunately. One failure was on my race car at a meeting and the other was on a long Continental trip in our original beige 4th Series) and secondly, I still run with original dynamo + voltage regulator set up. In the event of a problem with the charging, one can travel considerably further, particularly in daylight running on just the battery.
Christopher


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: davidwheeler on 09 November, 2015, 01:48:06 PM
That's why I said "bypass" not "remove" - but does running dry harm a mechanical pump?


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: lancialulu on 09 November, 2015, 03:33:10 PM
should run them through the mech pump why not it flushes the valves....


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: John B on 14 November, 2015, 08:21:09 AM
After more than a month of inactivity with my Appia and bearing in mind all the posts regarding battery draining and starter motor churning when starting a car without an electric fuel pump I tried something different when starting it yesterday.

A  2 or 3 second spray of Bradex Easy Start into the air filter, no choke, start the car.....engine immediately started and ran for perhaps 1 or 2 seconds. Repeated procedure and again engine ran for 1 or 2 seconds.
Then used choke and started as normal, engine fired up after just a few seconds, I think the few seconds of running with the Easy Start spray equates to something like 30 seconds of battery draining and starter motor churning.

Anyone see any problems with this method?


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: neil-yaj396 on 14 November, 2015, 08:58:01 AM
Isn't Bradex a bit of a last resort thing? I thought it could cause damage to valves etc. if over used?


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: fay66 on 14 November, 2015, 11:25:34 AM
With many years of starting reluctant vehicles in winter with Easy Start, or it's Australian Equivalent, 'Start You orphan' in my opinion it's much too volatile to be used on a permanent basis, after about 10 years of experience of using an electric pump for priming only, I know what I'd sooner do.
Don't really know why but my garage fitted it close to the fuel tank of my series 1 2c, rather than under the bonnet, unlike many it's not a Facet, I'm not sure of the make but it's been reliable.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: the.cern on 14 November, 2015, 11:33:26 AM
The discussion about the advisability of using easy start type products has been rumbling on for a long time. Personally I am with Brian on this, an electric pump is much more gentle on the engine than these products ..... but they do still have their place in the toolkit, just not the weapon of first choice!!!

Brian, with regard to pump location, I understand fuel pumps may be either pushers or pullers. I presume yours is a pusher, hence located adjacent to the tank. So long as it works, that is ok.

                               Andy

     


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: stanley sweet on 16 November, 2015, 10:03:24 AM
A long time ago I read that if you use Easy Start type products all the time the engine comes to rely on them. I'm not sure how an inanimate object can develop a memory but there you are. I've never looked back since fitting an electric pump to the Fulvia. Instant starting every time.


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: lancialulu on 16 November, 2015, 10:24:17 AM
I virtually always resurrect my Ducati Monster in April after a winter's lie in with easy start, as the cranking required to get the feeble manifold vac operated fuel pump to prime is painful. Just lift the tank and spray into the air filter inlet and up she fires...

The upside of grinding the starter though is that you will have oil pressure before the engine fires up...


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: John B on 16 November, 2015, 10:38:10 AM
Thanks for all your replies, I too have heard the story that the engine will come to rely on easy start.....I think it's just one of those many urban myths that goes around.

"The upside of grinding the starter though is that you will have oil pressure before the engine fires up..."
Good point....I will bear that in mind.

Electric fuel pump is the favoured option by most so I will probably be going down that road.


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: fay66 on 16 November, 2015, 11:46:36 AM
The discussion about the advisability of using easy start type products has been rumbling on for a long time. Personally I am with Brian on this, an electric pump is much more gentle on the engine than these products ..... but they do still have their place in the toolkit, just not the weapon of first choice!!!

Brian, with regard to pump location, I understand fuel pumps may be either pushers or pullers. I presume yours is a pusher, hence located adjacent to the tank. So long as it works, that is ok.

                               Andy

     
Thanks Andy, perhaps they fitted it there as the Series 1 doesn't have a fuel return system.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: GG on 16 November, 2015, 12:23:08 PM
Have fitted a Facets pump on Aurelia for years, but always in-line with mechanical pump. That way, for general running, use the mechanical pump. For starting, use the electric to prime and spare the starter motor. However, this recommendation comes with a couple of caveats:

- the electric pump should be the lower pressure one (2.5-4psi), as its pressure is directly on the mechanical fuel pump diaphragm.
- probably check the condition of the diaphragm. Don't want that to fail. Upgrade to newer material. 
- its worth checking the delivered PSI of the mechanical pump throughout the rev range. When Walt Spak was still with us, he once tested 3 mechanical fuel pumps and found their delivered pressure was all over the place. From the three, he made one good one. he also found the thickness of a gasket at the mounting point impacted delivered pressure, varying from 0 to 7 psi.

Remade pumps are available but even these should still be checked. Also check for wear on the pushrod.

For our unrestored Appia, I haven't had the nerve to fit an electric pump, so a bit of starter fluid when it sits for a long time. A couple of quick bursts, and then it runs happily on the choke. It helps from overtaxing the starter motor. Haven't seen any downside to this but it doesn't get a lot of use either.


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: davidwheeler on 17 November, 2015, 02:00:53 PM
After more than a month of inactivity with my Appia and bearing in mind all the posts regarding battery draining and starter motor churning when starting a car without an electric fuel pump I tried something different when starting it yesterday.

A  2 or 3 second spray of Bradex Easy Start into the air filter, no choke, start the car.....engine immediately started and ran for perhaps 1 or 2 seconds. Repeated procedure and again engine ran for 1 or 2 seconds.
Then used choke and started as normal, engine fired up after just a few seconds, I think the few seconds of running with the Easy Start spray equates to something like 30 seconds of battery draining and starter motor churning.

Anyone see any problems with this method?
There once was a thing called Ki Gas, routinely fitted to aero engines but quite  often to the better sort of vintage car and usually marked by a small plaque somewhere on the car!


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: Parisien on 21 November, 2015, 05:27:20 PM
Another useful thread

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4362.msg32178#msg32178


P


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: Jaydub on 26 November, 2015, 04:58:36 PM
Personally I would recommend fitting a gear reduction starter motor. Twice the power, half the current, thereby saving the battery,and up to 50% lighter. Price approx. 155.00 from Auto Electrical Supplies. Disable the ignition, crank until oil pressure registers ( much quicker with the faster cranking speed), by which time you should have fuel to the carbs, give the throttle 4 good pumps, switch on the ignition and it should start. Works well with race engines running much higher compression.

John


Title: Re: Fulvia fuel pump priming issues
Post by: Richard Fridd on 26 November, 2015, 05:22:20 PM
I like the idea of the starter motors John, and may get one myself