Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Flavia => Topic started by: Justin McArdle on 14 June, 2015, 10:56:47 AM



Title: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: Justin McArdle on 14 June, 2015, 10:56:47 AM
Yesterday I ran the car up to temperature to check the idle speed after adjusting the fuel/air mix on the ECU last week . I then refitted the ECU cover and shelf because the shelf had slipped when the ECU cover had been removed to set the mix and was interfering with the clutch pedal return spring. All fixed and decided to take the car for a run but couldn't get it into reverse gear (gnashing of gears when attempted). It seems that the pressure plate is stuck to the flywheel. Perhaps this happened after repeated pumping of the clutch pedal when  checking/adjusting  that the shelf was clear of the spring. Having looked at various websites intend to start the car in 3rd of 4th gear with handbrake on and give the accelerator a couple of sharp dabs to see if that will free the clutch.
Has anyone had similar experience and does my proposed remedial action sound good?  FYI the car is used regularly and clutch gas been fine (disregarding possible need for new clutch release bearing at some time in the future).



Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: rogerelias on 14 June, 2015, 12:40:28 PM
Sounds like you going in the right direction by putting in 4th gear and starting car, sometimes they will free off by rocking in top gear, while the pedal is held down with length of wood from seat base to pedal, good luck


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: Justin McArdle on 14 June, 2015, 01:43:57 PM
No luck with freeing the clutch. Symptons are as follows.
Cannot engage 1st or reverse gear (havent tried the other gears) with engine running.
Can engage any gear with engine off and then start car. In 1st or reverse the car moves slowly when started but can be held easily on foot brake and possibleto rev the engine and hold on brake.
Letting the clutch pedal out seems to better engage the clutch I.e. speed of car increases as clutch let out.
I would assume that if the pressure plate was stuck to the flywheel the car would lurch forwards/backwards when started in gear with the clutch cable depressed. Clutch works after a fashion just will not allow gears to be engaged.

Any thoughts/comments would be very welcome


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: lancialulu on 14 June, 2015, 02:11:46 PM
Adjust the cable in the engine bay?? Seems like it may be about to break as to go out of adjustment is to streach and this is only when about to break....


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: the.cern on 14 June, 2015, 02:48:58 PM
I think Tim might have it there, especially as you say that you have been pumping the clutch a lot. Some times, if a cable is about to break you can hear it 'suffering'. With engine off, pump the pedal slowly and listen carefully. I have no experience with the Flavia/2000 clutch, but a  clutch cable usually fails close to the pedal or close to to the actuating lever.
Good luck and please let us know what you find.

                             Andy


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: Justin McArdle on 14 June, 2015, 06:46:21 PM
Cable seems fine. The release arm is moving the correct distance and I have checked that the free play is as per the manual.


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: lancialulu on 14 June, 2015, 07:53:53 PM
Have you adjusted the cable to the minimum slack at c2-3mm at the arm end in the engine bay?


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: Justin McArdle on 14 June, 2015, 08:01:53 PM
Hi Tim, yes checked it matched the free travel as per the manual which is 5 to 7mm.


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: Justin McArdle on 14 June, 2015, 08:03:34 PM
Tim, I also checked that the release arm was travelling its full distance when the pedal was depressed


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: neil-yaj396 on 15 June, 2015, 06:47:22 AM
This is a tricky one!

Could the bearing have collapsed? Hence not fully disengaging the clutch?


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: Justin McArdle on 15 June, 2015, 08:02:46 AM
Colin Clamp, our Flavia guru, reckons that it sounds more like i have perhaps just pushed the clutch down a bit
further than it would normally go and it is sticking on the splines.


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: lancialulu on 15 June, 2015, 08:13:18 AM
Colin Clamp, our Flavia guru, reckons that it sounds more like i have perhaps just pushed the clutch down a bit
further than it would normally go and it is sticking on the splines.
Don't understand this as the friction plate is freed by the pressure plate on operating the clutch so stops spinning (or should do) with the flywheel. The pressure plate cannot push the friction plate beyond the flywheel???

I have had 3 instances where a Fulvia clutch has stuck due to lack of use (over winter), and one on a Gamma which just appeared following a long journey and a weeks rest. In every instance I have brutally put in first or reverse depending on what trajectory I need to control the car, foot hard down on the clutch pedal, and other foot on the brake pedal and crank the starter. It always releases immediately with a frightening bang. From your description the clutch is dragging. I would do up the 5-7mm to minimum clearance to see if you can get the clutch to free itself then re-adjust. Its not difficult for a garage to drop the gearbox and put a new clutch in (get your clutch kit yourself - probalbly the Fiat uno 1.4 Turbo (petrol) 200mm will be the best).


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: peteracs on 15 June, 2015, 08:34:36 AM
Any chance it is an oil leak gone onto the clutch/flywheel mating surface and it is this which although not stopping the flywheel/clutch to move relative to each other is just enough to cause the two to 'interact' whilst the pedal is down? I would suspect if you are brutal (not recommended) you can actually get into 1st with the engine running as this would break the dragging.

Peter


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: Justin McArdle on 15 June, 2015, 01:58:40 PM
Peter, it could well be. I suspect that the release bearing might need replacing but those symptoms (juddery takeoff when engine hot) are very similar to those caused by oil contamination of  the clutch/flywheel mating surface. I have tried starting the car in gear with the brake on but this hasn't done the trick. What is unusual (and supports your theory) is that although I cannot engage gears with the engine running the clutch operates after a fashion if I start the car in gear. The car will start and creep forwards/backwards but will increase speed as i let the clutch pedal out.
I am going to have another look at it this evening.
Thanks to everyone for their input.


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: Justin McArdle on 17 June, 2015, 07:08:54 PM
Latest update ..
Tightened clutch cable taking out the free play and can now get into 1st and reverse while the engine is running. However now have clutch slippage because the cable is too tight!


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: ben on 17 June, 2015, 08:33:42 PM
I reckon you will have to open it up.
I had a similar problem with my tractor!
Good Luck
                Ben


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: Justin McArdle on 19 June, 2015, 10:11:57 AM
Latest update...

I changed the clutch cable suspecting that the cable may have stretched and because I had a spare in the boot!

The manuals specify four measurements:

1)   Release arm free play: 5-7mm
2)   Distance from release arm to cable bracket: approx. 120mm
3)   Distance from rubber grommet to cable casing when clutch pedal depressed fully: 10mm
4)   Clutch pedal free play: 20-25mm

I can achieve 1), 2) and 3) but 2) is 140mm not 120mm. In this state I cannot select 1st, Reverse, 2nd gears
With cable free play reduced (eradicated) I can select first/reverse with engine running but clutch slips.
When installing new clutch cable I screwed it in until the end of the cable could go no further. Fitting on clutch pedal is a 3 sided bracket with screw hole.


 


Does the fact that I can select gears if the cable is tightened suggest that the cable installation is incorrect?
Any advice/input appreciated


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: lancialulu on 19 June, 2015, 05:00:05 PM
1. Did you offer up the two cables to see dimensional differences?
2. Can you get any clutch operation if adjusted somewhere between 0 (ie no play) and 5mm ?
3. I assume the arm is not slipping on the splines?


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: simonandjuliet on 19 June, 2015, 05:12:10 PM
Still coming to terms with the "tractor in bits" photo, it's like someone chopped it in half !

Sorry to digress ......


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: Justin McArdle on 19 June, 2015, 06:54:25 PM
1. Did you offer up the two cables to see dimensional differences?
2. Can you get any clutch operation if adjusted somewhere between 0 (ie no play) and 5mm ?
3. I assume the arm is not slipping on the splines?

Tim,
The new cable was approx 15mm shorter which raised my hopes no end and made me think that the old cable had stretched. However, the new cable when installed had the correct gap when the clutch depressed of 10mm but still is 140mm from bracket to release arm fork instead of 120mm as per the manual.
The clutch works if the cable tightened (no free play, taut) but I have a choice of can change gear/clutch slipping or cannot engage gear/clutch operates normally.

I suspect there is something simple I could be missing. My other thought was that was I correct to screw the cable as far as I could into the pedal bracket?


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: fay66 on 19 June, 2015, 09:30:28 PM
1. Did you offer up the two cables to see dimensional differences?
2. Can you get any clutch operation if adjusted somewhere between 0 (ie no play) and 5mm ?
3. I assume the arm is not slipping on the splines?

Did you check Number 3 as that's what was my initial thought?

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: the.cern on 19 June, 2015, 09:52:44 PM
Still coming to terms with the "tractor in bits" photo, it's like someone chopped it in half !

Sorry to digress ......


That photograph gives me a slightly uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach !!!

                                    Andy


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: Justin McArdle on 19 June, 2015, 10:31:08 PM
1. Did you offer up the two cables to see dimensional differences?
2. Can you get any clutch operation if adjusted somewhere between 0 (ie no play) and 5mm ?
3. I assume the arm is not slipping on the splines?

Did you check Number 3 as that's what was my initial thought?

Brian
8227 8)


I will check #3 and report back


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: fay66 on 20 June, 2015, 07:03:41 AM
Still coming to terms with the "tractor in bits" photo, it's like someone chopped it in half !

Sorry to digress ......


That photograph gives me a slightly uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach !!!

                                    Andy

Very nice Fergie all the same :D

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: 2000hf pressure plate stuck to flywheel
Post by: Justin McArdle on 20 June, 2015, 02:29:25 PM
1. Did you offer up the two cables to see dimensional differences?
2. Can you get any clutch operation if adjusted somewhere between 0 (ie no play) and 5mm ?
3. I assume the arm is not slipping on the splines?

Hi Tim, I think that option 3 is the one.
Checked the clutch cable this morning and set to specified free play of cable and pedal. Bottom line is that distance from release arm head to bracket holding clutch cable is 140mm whereas it should be 120mm. Assume that the release arm has jumped/moved to move the head by 20mm. If the clutch release arm head is 20mm closer the clutch will work correctly and the cable/pedals will be the correct tolerances.
I have the car booked into my Epping garage next Wednesday so I hope they can fix it fairly quickly. Obviously, I need to consider why this has happened. Have you heard of this before??