Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Flaminia => Topic started by: dannels on 28 October, 2014, 12:34:12 PM



Title: Fuel pump
Post by: dannels on 28 October, 2014, 12:34:12 PM
Hi All,

I'm having reliability issues with my recently rebuilt mechanical fuel pump - i'm not sure if its air in the system or the pump is just too weedy...or both

I'm considering adding an electric fuel pump - but have a few questions...

What type do people recommend - Faucet silver top with a pressure regulator?

Where do people position the pump? If its in the boot/near the fuel tank then it only pumps one of the two fuel lines - so do people site them in the engine bay?

All words of wisdom appreciated...

Cheers
Dave

 



Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Jay on 28 October, 2014, 02:17:00 PM
Hi Dave

The 3C had an electric pump in the rear n/s wing compartment, one that has the filler tube in, it then pumps a loop/return system with a Filter-king type glass filter and regulator in the engine bay.  Not sure how the pump and plumping has been set-up in the boot, as I spend more under the bonnet, but can have a look later.     


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: frankxhv773t on 28 October, 2014, 03:23:19 PM
Hi Dave

The Berlina has an electric pump in the boot br the filler pipe too.

Frank


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: dannels on 31 October, 2014, 02:55:15 PM
I'm still not clear how a pump in the boot can pump both pipes from the fuel tank or is it just pumping the main not the reserve?

On another note I've gone for electronic ignition and have got myself completely confused when I removed my distributor cables. I took a note when I removed them of their position, but then looked at the workshop manual that gave a firing order of 1-4-3-6-5-2 - which is different from how I had it set up before....

My previous set up had 1-5-3-2-4-6 which is firing one side then the other - was this incorrect?? Is the workshop manual correct for all models? It also lists the order of the cylinders on each bank which seems different from mine (looking at the number stamped next to the plug)
From front to rear - on the right I have 1,3,5 and on the left 6,2,4

Can someone set me straight please?

Cheers
Dave







Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Jay on 31 October, 2014, 03:53:06 PM
Hi Dave

It also doesnít help that the dizzy cap has the firing order stamped on it whilst the cylinder heads are the cylinders numbers. This doesnít mean that the HT leads are set out as 1 goes to 1, 2 goes to 2, etc. as that would give you a nasty misfire.  But what I do remember is that it is close but you have to swap 2 of the 6 HT cables around.

I donít have any documentation at work but have it written down at home so will post tonight, also I will have a look at fuel pump over the weekend when itís light.

My weekend job is splitting the gearbox, when I took the transaxle out I tested box by turning the input shaft in each gear including reverse, counting the output shafts rotations, it seemed smooth and fine. So rebuilt the clutch, brakes etc however when putting the clutch back on I was turning the input shaft and then realised it was in gear and discs were on blocks, so why was I able to turn the shaft?

My only conclusion is either the gear on the input shaft or front gear on the main lower shaft is spinning on their shaft.      


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: dannels on 31 October, 2014, 05:48:22 PM
Thanks!

You need to try with the wheels on and on the ground. If it still turns when you are in gear then it's an issue. Turning when there's no weight on them is normal.

Cheers
Dave



Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Richard Fridd on 31 October, 2014, 07:20:51 PM
I'm still not clear how a pump in the boot can pump both pipes from the fuel tank or is it just pumping the main not the reserve?

On another note I've gone for electronic ignition and have got myself completely confused when I removed my distributor cables. I took a note when I removed them of their position, but then looked at the workshop manual that gave a firing order of 1-4-3-6-5-2 - which is different from how I had it set up before....

My previous set up had 1-5-3-2-4-6 which is firing one side then the other - was this incorrect?? Is the workshop manual correct for all models? It also lists the order of the cylinders on each bank which seems different from mine (looking at the number stamped next to the plug)
From front to rear - on the right I have 1,3,5 and on the left 6,2,4

Can someone set me straight please?

Cheers
Dave






I am also not clear about how a single pump would provide delivery to both fuel and reserve pipes? Here is my setup from the "Flaminia" thread


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Jay on 31 October, 2014, 09:21:48 PM
HT setup, as mentioned above the numbers on the dizzy are the firing order

Looking at the engine with fan nearest you the cylinders are numbered

6       5
4       3
2       1
   Fan

So the HT leads are connected as follows, with the dizzy #1 roughly at 1 oíclock position and going clock wise 

Dizzy      Cylinder
1     to      1
5     to      5
3     to      3
2     to      4
4     to      6
6     to      2

But will double check this over the weekend.

Regarding the gearbox itís still out the car, but i can turn the input shaft with the discs stationary in all gears, so must be a major problem.


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: dannels on 01 November, 2014, 08:51:43 AM
Thanks Julian,

I can see where the confusion is happening - (apart from the manual!)- my cylinders are stamped as follows:

4.    5
2.    3
6.    1

Fan

Cheers
Dave


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: dannels on 02 November, 2014, 09:45:35 AM
Thanks Richard,

Do you recommend the faucet pump? Where is it connected - to the main fuel line?

Cheers
Dave


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Richard Fridd on 02 November, 2014, 10:30:49 AM
Yes.In the main fuel line with pressure regulator.


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: GG on 02 November, 2014, 12:35:50 PM
Isn't it that the distributor cap simply has the firing sequence of the cap on it? And The cylinders are numbered on the heads.

You put the two together as needed (per the manual with the firing order. The confusion is that people expect the dist cap to be numbered as the firing order (for the cylinders) which it is not. If you take the dist cap off and check it from below, this becomes clearer.


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: dannels on 02 November, 2014, 03:45:03 PM
The confusion is the manual states a certain firing order but the cylinder numbers are not necessarily the same on each car... Mine are stamped differently than Jays for example


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Jay on 02 November, 2014, 04:46:37 PM
Moving on to fuel pumps, I have a facet ( i guess itís a silver top) mounted on the inner wheel arch on looks like the original rubber mounts. There are 2 metal pipes that pop through the boot floor, the rear comes from the tank and is plumbed into the bottom Ďiní of the pump and the front comes from the Ďoutí, which goes to the engine bay regulator.

In the engine bay it passes through a Filter King type filter and regulator and then off to the centre carb banjo, its the pipe in the forground of the picture.

So no return system.......    


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Richard Fridd on 02 November, 2014, 05:14:42 PM
Nice carbs. I now understand how the fuel and reserve pipes function, with a pump being mounted at the front of the car, thank you.


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: dannels on 14 December, 2014, 08:25:32 AM
Hi all,

An update to this - when pulling apart the mechanical fuel pump (again) i found one of the o rings had been eaten away by the fuel - hence the loss of fuel pressure. That o ring was less than 6 months old!

Anyway - o ring replaced and the engine is now singing again. I'll stick with the mechanical pump for now.

Cheers
Dave


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Richard Fridd on 26 March, 2021, 10:49:17 AM
Thanks Julian,

I can see where the confusion is happening - (apart from the manual!)- my cylinders are stamped as follows:

4.    5
2.    3
6.    1

Fan

Cheers
Dave
    Confusion yes. Mine are stamped as Dave's. Is this method of head numbering to match the distributor cap numbering, whereas Julian's numbering is assending numerically from the fan pulley rearwards? Also Museo Motori states 1 4 3 6 5 2 as firing order. Would anyone here be able to post a schematic ht lead diagram perhaps in plan view of what works correctly . My  distributor numbers match my head stampings at present. Richard


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Richard Fridd on 05 May, 2021, 04:09:36 PM
So I now know that some heads are stamped to match distributor cap numbers and some are stamped to match cylinder numbers. Back to electric fuel pumps, despite some instructions saying horizontal mounting is ok, outlet at the top is logical to allow vapour to escape, so I have remounted my Facet pump vertically/ outlet at top as a precaution against previous suspected fuel starvation. Richard


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: FERGTS246 on 19 July, 2021, 06:40:39 PM
Regards using the Silver Top Facet, I bought one with a spring specified to 3 psi so I don't need the fuel regulator.
Chris


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Richard Fridd on 30 July, 2021, 05:30:06 PM
Regards using the Silver Top Facet, I bought one with a spring specified to 3 psi so I don't need the fuel regulator.
Chris
                          Good idea, I see the spring is also available separately.
Looking at some engines of the period, I see some are fitted with yellow coloured fuel hose. Does anyone here have experience of this/ know of it's real world merits or otherwise? Richard


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Richard Fridd on 20 October, 2021, 10:45:53 AM
Twin pumps now


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Richard Fridd on 20 October, 2021, 05:29:01 PM
Back to the distributor firing order I have marked the cap for future reference, as each rotor arm contact/ ht lead connection was not obvious to me until I performed a continuity test. Richard


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: FERGTS246 on 25 October, 2021, 10:51:22 PM
You can get the Facet Silver Top electric pump with different rated springs. The standard spring gives 6psi and the optional spring is for 3psi. (There may be other springs available?).
I have a Solex twin choke 40 PAAI that needs 3 psi, so don't need a regulator since I've got a 3psi spring in the Facet. However a regulator will get rid of pulsing in the fuel delivery that apparently is desirable.
Before fitting the 3 psi spring I had fuel leaking from the carbs and the plugs sooted up realy quickly. Now its sorted.
Chris


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Richard Fridd on 01 November, 2021, 07:38:38 PM
Useful to know about the spring rates available, thank you. I have made this  ht diagram for quick reference for anyone who may find it useful.


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: lanciab20 on 15 February, 2022, 11:10:30 AM
My PF Coupe does not have a reserve arrangement (I have had the tank refurbished and I would have noticed how many outlet pipes there were).  I have a Facet pump in the well behind the left rear wheel arch.  Previous electric pump (name unknown) gave trouble several times during a journey on a "smart" motorway and so had to go.


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Jaydub on 15 February, 2022, 08:28:02 PM
Hi Richard, regarding the Yellow Fuel Hose you mentioned. It is REGOSALVA and it was a period fitment on many Italian cars such as Ferrari, Maserati. Lamborghini, Alfa, Lancia etc.  It is 5 layered, inner spiral wound spring, white string, rubber hose, yellow sheathing and a spiral wound outer spring. It is very strong and difficult to bend into a tight radius. The price is prohibitive at around £20.00  PER INCH!  I don`t know if it is Ethanol proof, as the question didn`t arise then.  You can buy it from a proper Ferrari specialist, but I suspect you will not. 

Best
Jaydub.


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: Richard Fridd on 11 May, 2022, 08:05:46 AM
I wonder what the prohibitive cost is due to?
Richard


Title: Re: Fuel pump
Post by: GG on 11 May, 2022, 11:35:39 AM
In the US, I think its even more ridiculous!

The B20 had its hose remade like this, but it now sits in a box on a shelf! A simple black fabric fuel hose gets the job done.