Lancia Motor Club

I have been contacted by a gentleman who's Grandmother was fortunate enough to have this as a wedding car.

"Good afternoon Neil
 
I am a member of the Singer Owners Club and own several pre-war Singers.
 
When I was showing one of my cars at the NEC show a couple of years ago I
was speaking to someone on the Lancia stand as I have the attached photo of
my Grandmother and it was taken at her wedding in Berlin around 1930.
 
I have always been told it was a Lancia but as I knowing nothing about
Lancias of this age I have always wondered what it was.
 
Do you recognise it and could you possibly let me have some information on
the car?
 
Many thanks and hope to hear from you soon.
 
Kind regards
 
Jonathan Borchard"
 

Jonathan also belives they bought it back to London in 1933, so it was at least for a time, resident in the UK.

My knowledge of these pre-war cars is not so good, being limited to if it is a Lancia it's likely either a special bodied Astura or Dilambda. If anyone has any thoughts please post them, I can also put people in touch with Jonathan (rather than post contact details on-line).

Don't know what it is ???, but it looks lovely  :o

There is a similar Astura spider in Wim's La Lancia, but the hood and the bonnet is a little different, may be a variation of that model by Garavini of Turin.

looks more Lambda to me, spinners look too small for Astura/ Dilambda,  ??? also astura's didn't come into production until 1931 and a special body probably wouldn't be available until 32 by the time it was built

My initial thought is that is not an italian car (and that was before I saw the reference to Berlin) - the proportions do not look quite right to me and the front wings do not flow into the running boards. The rear part of the body looks to be more typical of German coachbuilders, so my guess would be something more local to Berlin!

Thanks for the replies so far chaps!

So it's too early for an Astura, and there is a thought that it may not be Italian. Nigel Trow concures with your thoughts Adrian,

My immediate reaction is that it is not a Lancia. The period puts into late

Lambda chassis, di Lambda or Artena. There is not sign of the necessary rear support cage

of the Lambda Chassis and the bonnet line seems too low for the di Lambda engine - which

is a very tall lump. It seems to have a long wheelbase (estimating  the height of the man as maybe 5 foot ten)

The Artena was 3180mm, Lambda chassis 3100mm.

It is a beautiful car but somehow un Lancia like. And is the a Renault diamond on the radiator cap?

If it were to be German, it probably leaves Horch, Maybach or Mercedes. It looks to me to be too elegent for a Maybach?

The wing line has a Bugatti look to it, although it isn't a Bugatti. Maybe a French coachbuilder like Saoutchik? Back then Renault were just making small mass market cars as far as I know, think they always had solid wheels too. The mascot is intriguing. Also is there some kind of flag staff on the opposite wing, or is it a marker for width? If it's a marker, then maybe it was RHD. Italian cars were RHD.........................sorry, couldn't help making it more confusing :)  This is when we need Bill Boddy. He'd just say 'Oh, that's a so and so, had one once, cost me £5 in 1957.'

A Berlin coachbuilder that could fit the bill is Erdmann and Rossi.

And I found a Bugatti (either 46 or 50) they bodied, that looks quite similar (also with those horizontal louvres in the bonnet) but with a much heavier shape, due to the massive chassis, and the cast aluminum wheels.

Maybe a lesser known marque, an Austro Daimler perhaps? Still a big and long car, but not too massive (like a Maybach).

Neil, it could be interesting sharing the picture with PrewarCar, which reaches a wider audience!

Early Panther De Ville  ??? ;)

This to me is a peculiar looking car altogether, and clearly designed for sself-love before function. I wonder if it is a touring length 6C Alfa Romeo chassis with an eccentric choice of body, though I must say the wheelbase is extraordinarily long. Forgive my sniffiness, but I suspect the body might be by any number of makers.

Looks too low altogether for a Dilambda and the headlights look round instead of shield shape, although some didn't conform. However, front bumper looks Dilambda!

Robin.

Also the radiator ornament could be any one of the hundreds of aftermarket ones available back then. When I first saw it I thought the bonnet and headlights had an Alfa-ish feel. Hope we find out eventually - also whether it's still around?

The filters on this site are priceless. What I wrote as "sw*nk", with an "a" where the asterisk is, was changed to "sself-love" in my post above. Another time "sp*rse" had an offending "a" and became "spbottom". I really must try to keep it clean.

We aim to please with the filters .... ;) They're not that bright ... but better then having to monitor it all ...

I would guess it is a 1930 Maybach Zeppelin DS7 looking at the bonnet, the louvres, the wheelbase, the rear swirl & fenders, although the coachwork is probably by someone else.
I googled 1930's luxury cars, came across a 1938 Maybach DS8 which looks like an evolution of the car pictured, then googled 1930's Maybach where you can find a few pictures with attributes to the picture, although none of the actual car shown

The Maybach DS7 and 8 were very large and heavy cars with V12 engines of seven and eight litres.

About 15 years ago I spent a considerable amount of time working at the old Maybach factory (then and now MTU) in Friedrichshafen. They had a private collection of Maybach cars which I was able to look round on quite a few occasions. The Zepplins were huge, much bigger than this car. Photos of some of them can give the impression that they are elegant and almost delicate, but I can assure you that close up they are anything but! Mahooosive!!

Remembering discussions with his Grandparents, Jonathan is pretty sure they said it was a Lancia.

I'll look at the PreWarCar site, thanks for the suggestion Sebastion.

If the gentleman's grandparents were mistaken, which they almost certainly were, another Italian quality car would be good guess for what it might be. Resemblances to German bodywork will not tell one much, as a car in Berlin might well have been bodied in Germany whatever the chassis. Please see this link to a long Alfa Romeo 1750 for sale with Luzzago in Brescia.

http://www.hi-think.it/luzzago/hipgscheda.php?HIGNIdAuto=10505

Unfortunately the photographs are rather squashed. I have seen this car, and in the metal it looks both lower and a lot longer. Look at the wheels and the brake drums, and the bumpers too.

Ciao a tutti
Cesare

The bright rim is unusual...or is it only unusual now?   

I'm trying to work out if its an alloy rim with a riveted joint as I've seen on certainly one GP Alfa (or might even have been an Indy 500 Alfa) of that era.

The jump seats are great in that Alfa.

David

I can definitely see an Italian influence but I must admit that the car also reminded me of a Rolls Royce Phantom II of the period.

I agree with Sebastien that using a specialist knowledge forum would probably be your best bet for some resolution here. Prewarcars is good ... and there are other forums where posting a 'mystery car' will usually bring forward a well informed answer.

Let us know ... I'll certainly be interested!  :)

All the big cars mentioned, Maybach, but also Rolls-Royce Phantom II, are really very big cars.
To get an idea how big look at prewarcar.com and that picture of the Isotta Fraschini 8A, which is in the same category (6 to 8 litre cars).
The chauffeur behind is probably the same size as the gentleman in Neil's photo. He barely is visible behind the car although he is standing near it.

I do not think it is a Lambda, as the proportions are absolutely not the same - the bonnet is just too long. it could be a small Alfa (1750) however I doubt it, because of that bodywork.

So for me the car we are trying to find is in the 2 / 3 litre class, with small Rudge hubs and with a six cylinder engine.

The Alfa 1750 is not a small chassis, and carried all sorts of bodies. I am afraid that Sebastien's reasoning does not exclude it.
Cesare

Ok, going to stick my neck out here - if it is a Lancia then it could be a Dilambda (see photo of Modestine) or perhaps an Astura.

When I get back home from France next week I'll go through the many Dilambda photographs I have and see if anything turns up.

Robin.

The wheelbase looks like it's a bit more than 11 feet, which would be similar to a long wheelbase Lambda (11 feet, 6 inches) assuming the bloke is a tad less than 6 feet tall. The wheel spinners are too small for a Dilambda or Astrura, but about right for a Lambda. But that's where the similarity ends in my opinion. The doors must be heavy to warrant having three hinges. The bonnet looks to be too low to accommodate a Lambda (or any other Lancia) motor. It's certainly a mystery!
 Regards, John

Let us analyse a bit more: what could be the wheelbase of that car?
Measuring on the screen I see that it is approximately twice the size of the gentleman. He is not completely erect so assume he is 1.65 m on the picture. Wheelbase would thus be around 3.3 m
The longest chassis for the Alfa 6C was 3.1 m and used on 6C 1750 Turismo and 6 C 1500 normale, that is the chassis used for the 6 seater torpedo shown by Cesare. (Source: Angela Cherrett)
And the Lancia Lambda had either 3.1 m or 3.45 m wheelbase. A long Lambda could also be possible, however apart from the Käsbohrer bodied one, Capolavoro does not mention other German bodies, and I also feel that the bonnet is not Lambda like.
I mentioned earlier the Rudge hubs, because they were used on high quality cars, and are an easy way to distinguish between car makes.
So the hunt continues...
Maybe I should ask Bill Jamieson...

(John: a good example of concurrent thinking, if this is the right word!)

brakes and spinners are too small to be either and as I said before astura's artena's weren't manufactured until 1931 so if the photo is 1930 .......impossible

My best guess is still:
Austro-Daimler ADR, either on 3.2 or 3.5 m wheelbase.
Body by Erdmann & Rossi, Berlin
A real quality car!

Here another Erdmann & Rossi body, found in Wikipedia, on a Steyr chassis, dated 1932.
Much smaller car, but same treatment of the beltline, and hood.

Well, Here some more info, on the bodybuilder.
The body was most probably designed by Johannes Beeskow, who entered the firm of Josef Neuss in Berlin-Halensee in 1925. He is mentioned as designer for one Bugatti, one Maybach 12, and one Austro-Daimler ADR cabriolet. Neuss was taken over in 1933 by Erdmann & Rossi, where Beeskow became then chief designer.
After the war he worked for Rometsch, then Karmann.
So the body was in reality by Josef Neuss, not Erdmann & Rossi.

And It fits with my Austro-Daimler theory - it is one of the few chassis which used IRS, so allowed this low body line.

There is a German website on German carrossiers - also a possibility for a further confirmation.

I think that the spinners could be Dilambda. Modestine has 18" wheels so the brake drums look larger than than on a Dilambda with 20" rims. Modestine also has 3 door hinges.

But, more compelling for me is the depth of the chassis in front of the A post. It's 15" and if you compare the bottom line of the bonnet side it looks remarkably similar to Modestine. I'm not sure that many 30's cars had such deep chassis side members.

Robin.

Going back to square one, it was Mr. Trow's comment about the lacking rear support structure that ruled out the car being a Lambda. Looking at "La Lancia" though I see that the very last series chassis were a platform without the integral boot, and what is more had very deep side channels. It would be good to be able to confirm the enquirer's family legend!
Cesare

I have now had the riddle published by Prewarcar.
http://www.prewarcar.com/

Let's see what happens!
No quick answer yet!

First answers are coming in.

This link, part of one answer, is interesting:
http://www.bugattirevue.com/revue20/neuss.htm