Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: Mark Webb on 29 June, 2007, 06:34:33 PM



Title: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: Mark Webb on 29 June, 2007, 06:34:33 PM
Has anyone tried to find a suitable modern replacement for the old Ducellier ( generally reliable if the regulator points are kept clean and adjusted) or Bosch (hopeless in my experience!) alternators. The return journey from the Festival of Speed showed up a distinct lack of amps from the alternator due to everything being switched on in the bad weather. Normally the battery survives but has always had a habit of being flat when you least expect it and it was and I didn't!
This is the second time its let me down on the way back from Goodwood and if I do nothing else I'm replacing the clock with a Voltmeter!
Having fitted an new regulator the year before last, then last year the brush holder gave out and was replaced by a brush holder with integral regulator, now I would think a diode is faulty.
Hopefully something new will fit and would be lighter and more efficient than the original, Bosch in this case. I could fit a Ducellier if I could be bothered to fit the regulator box and make up a loom for it but a modern equivalent would be a better long term solution and originality is not an issue.
Any ideas?

Mark


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: Andy M-M on 12 July, 2007, 05:49:08 PM
Hi Mark,

Maybe the problem is all the ancillary extra`s that Peter fitted to the car, only joking..
I must admit when my clock stopped working, the volt meter was the perfect replacement. However I`m still running my ducellier without too much trouble.
Hope you are keeping well, cheers.


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: Mark Webb on 12 July, 2007, 06:06:08 PM
Hi Andy

Yes the extras don't help much, but it does not have a radio fitted, the stereo originally took up most of the boot space but was removed as he had something else planned. To be fair I did have just about everything on AND the engine fan on overide all the way home!
Maybe I will measure up an alternator and take a ruler to the next autojumble.

Hope you are keeping well.

Mark


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: fay66 on 13 July, 2007, 01:42:50 AM
Friend with an Appia GTE has just fitted one,  he went to a breaker dealing in Japanese cars  ;D as he needed something tiny to fit.

Came away with, I think, one about 4.1/2 inches in Diameter + as per all alternators about 1/2 the length of the dynamo.

I believe it came from something small like an early Micra & cost about £15 ! :o had to make up his own mounting bracket & slightly modify the wiring.
We have an Japanese  ;D specialist breaker near here, so the next time I'm out with my Fulvia 2c I'll call in, if I can get one that fits the 2c, coupe owners should have no problem as the space available between the dynamo pulley & the radiator is much tighter than it was on my 1.3 Rallye Coupe.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: Mark Webb on 13 July, 2007, 06:10:59 PM
Hi Brian

I thought that something would be available, I think that the 2C 1st series block may have different mounting points than the 2nd series but would be interested to find out what fits. Certainly more efficient than a dynamo anyway!
I have no issues about using modern parts rather than strugging with supposedly recon items, one of the few advantages of newer cars is alternator charging current as they have so much rubbish to power up.

Mark


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: fay66 on 13 July, 2007, 08:54:56 PM
Hi Mark,

I think it will depend on which engine size you have, I know Robin Lacey's old 2c had it's 1091cc changed for 1300 2nd series , I think from a Coupe, & whoever did the job tried to retain the dynamo but as the mounting point was intended for an alternator, the angle the fan belt was trying to cope with was unbelievable!
I'll keep you posted.

Brian Hilton
8227 8)


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: Dilambdaman on 13 July, 2007, 10:41:48 PM
Hi Mark,

I know Robin Lacey's old 2c had it's 1091cc changed for 1300 2nd series ,

Brian Hilton
8227 8)

Not while I owned it I hasten to point out!

Robin.


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: fay66 on 13 July, 2007, 11:44:13 PM
Hi Robin,

Sorry, I really meant to put a disclaimer in on your behalf ::), whoever put 1300cc engine in after you sold it, made a right hash of it.
The current owner in Ireland has had it restored & made a fine job of it, pity he had to sort out someone elses cock up.

Brian
8227
 8)


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: davidwheeler on 20 July, 2007, 07:30:43 PM
The 2CV has a TINY alternator.  I'll try one of my spare ones on my 1500 perhaps (very cramped)


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: lancialulu on 20 July, 2007, 08:50:25 PM
My 1600 Zagato came with a Lucas LRA 313 alternator which is larger and more  powerful than the standard Bosch unit. From the vehicle history the previous owner sourced it to sought out forever failing battery issues on full load. This alternator requires a slightly longer belt (by a couple of centimtres) and has onboard regulation.

However....... I found an electrical fault where one of the lighting relays was drawing current all the time and reasoned that this was the cause of the problem and my other fulvias never had this problem. (Drove through the night to Turin and back withour a problem), so I refitted the spare Bosch alternator. Purpose of this story is check the electrics for quiecent current (ie when all is off) - should only be the clock if fitted (and any alarm) which is minimal. If you still have problems check the battery is capable of taking the alternator charge and then fit a Lucas Alternator!!!!!!!! ???

Tim


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: Mark Webb on 21 July, 2007, 02:55:23 PM
Sounds interesting will look out for the Lucas LRA313, though I am reminded of the why do the british drink warm beer because they have Lucas refrigerators stickers seen in the states!
Have checked for Quiescent current but as its only about 50 ma hardly a problem but the car does have a history of flat batteries over many years now with me and Peter.
I isolate the car before leaving it and its consumed 3 batteries in the past 5 years and Peter fitted a couple as well!


Mark


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: lancialulu on 21 July, 2007, 06:21:38 PM
Could be your current (pun intended) alternator is frying the batteries (through improper voltage regulation???).

Tim


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: Mark Webb on 23 July, 2007, 09:17:30 AM
The regulator is limiting at 14 odd volts(checked with a reliable meter) and its had two new regulators as well however I have not checked the maximum current as my meters do not exceed 20A and I rarely get anywhere near measuring that at home. Maybe we have something at work but my line is more Radio Frequency (VHF/UHF and Kilowatts of it!) than DC.
I think the alternator is maybe not reliable on a run as thats when it seems to give the most trouble (especially Goodwood events strangely enough). Maybe the diode pack is breaking down with temperature but to be honest I think I've wasted enough effort on this particular alternator and think the Lucas sounds an interesting alternative.


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: lancialulu on 23 July, 2007, 10:55:03 AM
Mark

I now remember a problem diagnosed on a ducillier alternator I had refurbished by a local specialist. After replacing the diode pack to correct a problem connected with the charging light never going out, it was discovered that the rotot had an intermittent fault to eather therby from time to time producing on charge. Luckliy I had a spare in a gash alternator and now have a fully refurbed and tested ducillier spare. My lesson is that alternators are best taken to a specialist where they have the appropriate test gear. You can find these in your yellow pages. Interestingly the ducellier uses a smaller shaft diameter than the now standard (bosch is not affected) so sourcing a replacement rotor would have been challenging and a rewind was possibly the only solution.

Anyway, the Lucas (if you can still get it) is a big bugger but will fit under the carbs (same mountings as standard) but you must use a smaller belt to stop it fouling the drip tray.

Tim

Tim


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: Mark Webb on 23 July, 2007, 01:32:50 PM
OK Tim, being lazy I didn't think about measuring the resistance of the wire from the alternator and then volts drop across it to get the current supplied, may be worth a try just to confirm things. Having spent too much time on the Bosch I think a newer replacement is a good idea, finding a reliable local reCONditioner may be a problem anyway!

Mark


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: lancialulu on 23 July, 2007, 03:31:24 PM
Mark

My point is that these faults are not found except under dynamic load, as in my case the rotor measured fine but went erratic under operating conditions.

Good luck.



Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: angelorange on 24 July, 2007, 11:36:59 AM
If you want a reliable alternative alternator then the Japanese Denso 1L29 model ref: 27060-87211 12V  100211-4620

works superbly.

However it cost me 118 EUROS excl postage.



Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: Mark Webb on 25 July, 2007, 08:14:01 AM
Any idea what it was fitted to?
Have looked on the net but no sites in english and none that make any sense to me!
Maybe my local motorfactors can supply if they know what it fitted of if its really recent maybe a breakers Yard.

Thanks

Mark


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: ColinMarr on 09 January, 2009, 08:54:30 PM
I know this is an old thread, but it’s relevant so let me post it here.

I had the dreaded red-light staying on a few weeks ago, which I verified as no charge getting to the battery. Tips from Mark Webb and Tim Heath encouraged me try and get the alternator off without removing the carbs and drip tray – not so easily done with a sideways bonnet when lots have to be done blind by touch! But it’s possible (just) even in a freezing un-heated lock-up!

The alternator turns out to be a Ducellier one and it is now with a specialist who is rebuilding it. But to my surprise the regulator, when I also removed is a Bosch unit – an early type with a coil and contacts – which looks clean and OK, but I am surprised to find what might be a mismatch of types.

I am tempted to find a Ducellier regulator to go with my rebuilt Ducellier alternator. I would be pleased to hear from anyone on this forum who has any experience of this and who might know where to source a Ducellier regulator?

Another option would be to fit a Bosch alternator, and I do happen to have one of these on my shelf, but this looks like it needs rather special 3-pin and 2-pin connectors. Again, I would be pleased to hear from anyone who has experience of this.

Happy Fulvia-New-Year wishes to all of you,

Colin


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: chrislg on 10 January, 2009, 01:33:30 PM
Hi Colin,

The original Ducellier regulator for the Fulvia is very difficult to find, however Omicron do a electronic replacement for the Ducellier one and it comes with full instructions on fitting.

Hope that helps.

Chris


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: ColinMarr on 11 January, 2009, 04:41:50 PM
Thanks Chris,

I had hoped to find an original Ducellier regulator, but it’s good to know that substitutes are available.

Just in case anyone is interested in seeing the visible difference between Ducellier and Bosch alternators, and their terminations, see below.

Colin


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: lancialulu on 11 January, 2009, 07:16:57 PM
Hi Colin

I have two fulvia's with ducelliers and regulators, and my 1600 was fitted with a larger Lucas alternator with built in regulation. I was unhappy with this alternator as primarily not oem and rooting around in the boxes of bits that came with the car I found 2 Bosch alternators and a strange cable that fitted them. inside the front wing I found the Bosch regulator so did a swop (having had one of the Bosch alternators checked out) and it worked. I would expect that a later Series 2 or 3 would have Bosch so an OEM cable should be available from the various sources of broken up fulvia spare. You could try James Parry (chugga boom)?

Best

Tim


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: nistri on 12 January, 2009, 08:35:19 AM
Hi Colin,

The Ducellier regulator (Paris Rhone type) was fitted to a large number of French car models, especially Renaults built in the late 60s and early 70s. The R14 is just an example. So it should not be a great problem to find one.

However, the old type regulators use internal moving parts which wear out with time. It is much better to replace the mechanical-type regulator with an electronic one. Again there is a long list of compatible regulators (all fitted under the RH side wing), but if Omicron has a supply, it is easy to get one from them. All the best, Andrea.



Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: ncundy on 25 January, 2009, 08:32:48 PM
A little bit more information on this subject:
As my (Bosch) alternator has a broken stator I have been waying up the pros and cons of re-wind vs finding 2nd hand Bosch vs new. Along the way I have found that a replacement for this alternator is still made.

The Bosch part number for the Lancia alternator is 0-120-300-518. A company named ADI in France make a replacement for this alternator (part number AGN1784RS). I have no idea if it is dimensionally the same but it is 34A (vs 28A) so it may be worth a look?

But I was surprised why it is still in demand - apart from Lancia, this alternator was supplied to John Deere for use in his tractors ! In fact if you go on Ebay.com and type in alternator lancia you can still get the brush sets - advertised John Deere Lancia. It wouldn't surprise me if you can get them from agricultural engineering firms in the UK.

I have no idea what the cost is, and I would suspect that there are many more modern alternators (such as Denso) that will do the job. But if someone is feeling brave.......

Colin,
If you want a Ducellier regulator I may have one. I went digging around in the roof today seeing if I had a spare Bosch alternator - no luck but I did find 3 Ducellier ones, so almost certainly a regulator is up there somewhere.


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: chugga boom on 25 January, 2009, 09:59:07 PM
Hi Colin,

The original Ducellier regulator for the Fulvia is very difficult to find, however Omicron do a electronic replacement for the Ducellier one and it comes with full instructions on fitting.

Hope that helps.

Chris
difficult to find hmmmmmmmm, took me 2mins 2 find six of them ;D, 1 will be in the post this week


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: ColinMarr on 26 January, 2009, 09:08:46 AM
Neil and Chugga,

Many thanks for helpful comments, offers and the prospect of a regulator in the post. I’ll report back later, hopefully when the red light goes off again.

Colin


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: ncundy on 26 January, 2009, 04:30:54 PM
I'll leave it to Chugga to supply then as I don't like going up in the roof: too dark and too many spiders  ;D


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: ColinMarr on 01 February, 2009, 03:17:20 PM
Happiness is when the red light goes out!!!

The problem is now solved and I want to share it with you at the same time as saying thanks to all of you who posted with ideas and the offer of parts.

First, you have to imagine getting an alternator out, and in again, on a Fulvia Sport with sideways opening bonnet, where it’s buried beneath the carbs (in my case 42mm Solex) and hidden by the bonnet. (OK, I know I should have found an easy and safe way to remove the bonnet single-handed, but still I haven’t!)  And it’s in a freezing lock-up with everything you touch at about zero degrees. What fun?

The saga went like this:

Stage 1:

Alternator out for the first time, (after removing air-box, trumpets etc) and the Ducellier unit taken to a kindly repair man – he checked it out, replaced brushes and said it should be OK, but he didn’t have any test rig on which to verify this. He also looked at the Bosch regulator and said it looked fine. Fitted it all back in, but red light still on and still no charging. All the wiring checked for continuity and good connections and nothing found to be suspect.

Stage 2:

Second time out, but less time-consuming now because air-box etc still not fitted. Alternator taken to Sahibs Auto Electric at Hanger Lane – they tested it and found it to be faulty – said it had been assembled wrongly and diodes had blown. They charged only £40 + VAT to refurbish it, which I reckon was good value. Refitted it with high hopes and everything seemed to work – wonderful! Put the air-box and all the bits back on – everything still working. Pull the car out of the garage and leave the engine running while I sort out the tools and get ready to drive off – open the door to get in and notice RED LIGHT ON! It just has to be an intermittent fault in the regulator – so turn to Chugga-boom to source another regulator, this time a Ducellier one, which he kindly puts in the post. 

Stage 3:

Third time out, back to Sahibs complete with the suspect Bosch regulator. Sahibs’ team amused by my apparent incompetence and allowed me into the back-room workshop (an extraordinary cavern of a space filled with thousands of regulators and dynamos) where my alternator and my regulator were put on the test rig. Fantastic – all systems working: 14 volts, 35 amps and test rig panel light going on and off. Again, refitted it to the car with high hopes, but the bloody red light still on and still no charging! So, it has to be something in the wiring.

Stage 4:

Fourth time out, this time just to get access to the terminals to fit three improvised jump-leads to the regulator to by-pass the original wires. Ducellier regulator available if needs be. Refitted with trepidation and amazingly it works – red light goes out and 14 volts across the battery. So, replace the original wires one at a time to identify the faulty one – and it proves to be the most inaccessible of the three, the one that goes from the top of the alternator (marked EXC). Close examination of this lead reveals that the plastic insulation, which has gone brittle with age, had chafed against the underside of the carbs drip-tray which had bared a tiny area of the copper wire letting it intermittently short out to earth. Easy to replace a short section the wire and all should be hunky dory.

Stage 5:

Everything put back together and I take the car out to enjoy driving it for the first time this year – wonderful! Or is there still another intermittent fault somewhere else? Time will tell.

Lessons to be learnt:

1 Thank heaven I was not paying anyone else to do this!

2 Pay attention to 41 year old wiring that goes brittle!

3 It isn’t always the most likely thing that is the real fault.

4 If you have to do a job like this, try and avoid doing it in January.

5 Say thanks to friends on the forum, including: Mark Webb, Roddy Young, Tim Heath, Chris Long, Andrea Nistri, Neil Cundy, Neale Shepherd and particularly Chugga-boom and his dad. THANKS!

6 Take note of Sahibs Auto Electric at Hangar Lane (tel: 020 8997 8232). They test units for free, repair while you wait and their labour rates are only £18.00 an hour.


Colin



   
 

 


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: lancialulu on 01 February, 2009, 04:03:30 PM
Happy days!

But at least you have a sound alternator now for not a lot of bucks!

You can't beat these specialists. I have one in Colchester and what they dont know about auto electrical stuff can be written on a postage stamp. And if they dont know it they want too without you footing the bill.

Tim


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: ColinMarr on 15 March, 2010, 09:36:02 PM
I left off posting under this heading a year ago when I thought I was out of the wood and all was hunky dory with my alternator. In fact, by mid-2009 the red light had started to glow dimly although I knew there was still about 14 volts across the battery/charging terminals. I didn’t worry much about this until the red light started to glow more brightly that you might expect. I checked through the wiring and even provided parallel earth straps to try and sort it out, but to no clear advantage.

On the coldest possible day of February I took it all off again (did I hear you say frost-bite?) and took the offending parts to Sahib’s at Hanger Lane. Their Faraday’s workshop of test kit showed the Ducellier alternator had become suspect (a diode burnt out and perhaps a field winding shorting?), but the Bosch unit that I had taken along for test was 100% OK and Sahib’s thought it was the best bet.

I was resistant to using the Bosch unit because it meant changing the termination of the leads, and I didn’t like giving in to the idea of Vorsprung durch Technik. But the Bosch alternator is a bit bigger and heavier unit than the Ducellier one and it made sense to fit it.

The result is wonderful – red-light goes off like magic at even low revs with a full 14 volts across the battery and I am happy.

My conclusion is – forget about all the elegance of Ducellier and go for the brute of Bosch – if you have the choice that is.

Colin   


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: peterbaker on 15 March, 2010, 10:27:18 PM
Colin. I would be interested to know how much modification was required to change from the original dynamo


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: ColinMarr on 16 March, 2010, 06:30:39 PM
Peter,

Sorry, but I can’t really answer your question. Although my car is basically early S1, it has all S2 mechanical bits and running gear – all done long before my ownership. So, I have only known my car with S2 alternator and electric fan etc. Whenever I have looked at S1 cars with dynamo and belt driven fan they seem quite different to mine and maybe the blocks are different too. Somebody else might know!

Colin


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: Richard Fridd on 16 March, 2010, 07:01:27 PM
cant help with the wiring but have previously fitted a dynamo to an s2 block with spacers + home fabricated bracket so perhaps the reverse can be achieved.by the way what is a rebel poster?richard


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: ncundy on 16 March, 2010, 07:31:57 PM
Physically fitting an alternator to an S1 shouldn't be too much of an issue. The Fanalone has an alternator fitted on an S1 block and driven via the same belt arrangement (although you may have to make up a new pulley for the alternator).


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: peterbaker on 16 March, 2010, 07:49:43 PM
And maybe someone now sells an alternator that has the outer appearance of a dynamo. Like Lucas.


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: lancialulu on 16 March, 2010, 09:34:17 PM
Interesting posts on Viva lancia on this subject with a Fanalone owner in the uS modifying a bosch alternator to give 100A output (yes I dont really believe it) not to be done unless all wiring is improved to the battery!!

Tim


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: fay66 on 17 March, 2010, 12:39:56 AM
And maybe someone now sells an alternator that has the outer appearance of a dynamo. Like Lucas.

Yes they do but it costs about £400.
why all the concern about fitting an alternator in place of the dynamo?
It's true that if you try to run with everything on, then you might have a problem, but those of us who grew up with cars with dynamos ,and never knew the luxury of having ample power all the time, until later in our motoring life, very soon got in the habit when wanting to turn something else on, checking to see what wasn't really essential, and could be turned off, even to the point of turning off the heater fan, (Heaters B useless anyway so I always wear gloves etc) or running on sidelights, and using a arm (cold) to give hand signals, so most of the time we never got to the point of running the battery flat.

I ran my 1.3 Rallye Coupe for a couple of years with a dynamo, and "Fay" has run for over 10 years with no problems with a dynamo?, admitted I don't have any extra electrical equipment other than fog lights, but I've never had a problem, even after standing for up to a month in the artic conditions this winter,   She lives inside an airchamber,  in a unheated concrete lock up garage, so it's still gets very cold in there.
 
Granted, once or twice she has been a bit difficult to start, but with the electric pump to prime the carbs, there's none of the old churning over to pump the fuel up.
A run of about 30 miles then usually follows, to warm everything up, and get it all working as it should, which also tops up the battery very nicely.
Just hope I haven't blown it by mentioning how good it is ::)

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: peterbaker on 17 March, 2010, 08:55:35 AM
I agree except there are times during a rally when using main beam plus spotlights, wipers and heater plus map light is just too much. The Appia died on me in mid Wales and I was forced to drive some fifty miles in atrocious conditions using dip beam only. Now with an alternator the world is a better place.


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: fay66 on 17 March, 2010, 06:06:39 PM
I agree except there are times during a rally when using main beam plus spotlights, wipers and heater plus map light is just too much. The Appia died on me in mid Wales and I was forced to drive some fifty miles in atrocious conditions using dip beam only. Now with an alternator the world is a better place.

Not exactly a normal situation and a good reason to fit an alternator ;D

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Fulvia Alternator replacement
Post by: Neil Lewis on 21 March, 2010, 05:49:41 PM
If you've already "upgraded" froma dynamo to an alternator, why not just go the whole hog and fit a modern all-in-one alternator and ditch the control box too.  It's a while back so I can't remember exactly which alternator I used (it was second hand too) but I did just that and fitted a modern 55A alternator to my Series 3. I then had no trouble running the 100W headlights and spot-lamps on my rally car.  And the wiring was so much neater afterwards.

It did cook the wires under the fuse box and that entailed replacing the complicated original relay with a pair of modern 30A ones but that made the wiring simpler still.

Please don't ask me to remember how I wired it; those hand-drawn diagrams went with the car about 15 years ago.

Neil

PS
Now I've thought about it more, I had to shortne the tensioner bar so that the alternator didn't press against the base of the carbs and that meant using a shorter drive belt.