Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: PhilJones on 17 July, 2013, 06:49:22 AM



Title: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: PhilJones on 17 July, 2013, 06:49:22 AM
Hi

New to the forum and recent 1973 Fulvia S2 owner (standard Solex carbs) I have been advised to fit an electric fuel pump (red top) and a Filter King filter/regulator.

These are the items I am looking at:

Pump: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270965478831?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Filter: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130946992468?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Would these items be suitable? Advise would be appreciated on fuel pressure, fitting location etc.

Many thanks ???


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: lancialulu on 17 July, 2013, 07:24:44 AM
I use a silver top on my Fulvia 1600 without issues. You need to regulate the pump with Filter King to max 3psi (pump may give more than this). Best done by a temporary in line pressure gauge. Unless you are going rallying etc it is best to get the glass bowl Filter King as you can see how much muck if any is coming through from an old fuel tank. Cheaper too. However, unless you have issues with your standard mechanical pump why bother to do this.

Mounting is generally on the front offside inner wheel arch inside engine bay for both items. Make sure you fuse the supply and to an on/off switch. Best to use the oem blue cavis benz cee through plastic pipe work available form Omicron IMHO.

Tim


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: Richard Fridd on 17 July, 2013, 07:30:00 AM
I have a similar pump on my Flaminia PF but branded (Facet), a Proline 1-6 PSI regulator near to the tank and a glass bowl filter near to the carburettor. 3.5PSI is recommended in my service manual.(To be measured with a pressure guage). I understand some pumps are batch tested and the aircraft pumps are individually tested. Richard


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: davidwheeler on 17 July, 2013, 09:16:08 AM
Bought mine (for the Aprilia) from  http://www.flexolite.co.uk/catalogue.asp .  Compare prices I guess.


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: fay66 on 17 July, 2013, 09:34:16 AM
Bought mine (for the Aprilia) from  http://www.flexolite.co.uk/catalogue.asp .  Compare prices I guess.
Nice range from Flexolite at reasonable costs.
I bought my Glass Bowl filter King from Demon Tweeks which stopped no end of rubbish getting through to the carbs, my electric pump is different and was fitted by my garage adjacent to the fuel tank.
Just a thought would the in line fuel pipe non return valve they advertise, overcome the problem of having to prime the carbs, which as far as I was concerned was the reason for fitting an electric fuel pump in the first place?
Just compared prices of the filter King, and the ebay item is about 4 cheaper than the Flexolite, whereas it's about 10+ cheaper than Demon Tweeks.
That said I'd sooner go to Flexolite where you can also get everything else you need in one place, they are a reputable supplier who have been in business for many years.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: Richard Fridd on 17 July, 2013, 10:45:36 AM
My electric pump has overcome having to prime the carbs, although I have never objected to the engine building some oil pressure whilst waiting for fuel delivery during "cranking", the wait pro rata to engine shut-down time within reason. I enjoyed the fuel article in VL this month by Ian Marchbank, which mentions vapour lock in heat soak conditions, and I suppose an electric helps with that. Here is a twin pump set-up with figures swimming around


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: GG on 18 July, 2013, 01:30:38 PM
I have used an electronic pump in line (by the tank) to pump gas through the mech'l pump line - thus letting the regulation happen through that system. The electric pump is used to help startup and in rare cases of vapor lock (when very hot). It has the downside that all the pressure is taken through the diaphragm of the mech'l pump, if it were to fail, things would be very bad.

Two things to note:
1) check the output pressure of the mech'l pump. These can vary broadly, as they are very very sensitive to setup (gasket to block, length of push rod, etc.). Important.
2) there is the issue of carb boil over when car is stopped after running hard on hot day. Highly recommended is a return line from somewhere near the carbs to the fuel tank - just a small line, even 1 mm opening, will relieve the gas pressure and stop overflow. For anyone who has dealt with this problem (percolated gas can lead to fires!), its an easy fix. I think that the s. 2 Fulvias have this return already at the carbs - it was beginning to be implemented by car manuf. in the early 1970s, as the problem became apparent. I have one on an Aurelia (with Nardi kit) and it starts up hot as if it were a fresh cool engine - very safe and delightful, if a bit less than attractive to see extra line in the engine bay.
Geoff   


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: B20B24 on 18 July, 2013, 03:28:06 PM
I have to say I'm not a fan of these electric fuel pump upgrades, and in my experience Lancias do not respond well to modifications. I have removed electric pumps from my Aurelias in the past due to fueling problems and reverted to the original mechanical setups - the mechanical pumps are ultra reliable and I have never had vapour lock either (hot starting problems I had I traced to an overheating coil). The cold start takes a bit of cranking admittedly but at least you have a standard looking engine bay and a reliable car in the way the maker intended. There is of course the additional benefit of fire protection, if you are unfortunate enough to suffer an engine bay fire, once the engine stops the pump stops, unlike an electric pump which will merrily be feeding the flames if the ignition is on.

I'd refurbish what you have and forget the modification!

Clive


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: Richard Fridd on 18 July, 2013, 03:40:18 PM
Am I correct in thinking the mechanical pumps deliver fuel pressure pro rata to engine speed? One thing I have fitted in the past is an oil pressure switch which cuts the electrical supply to an electric fuel pump if fitted once the engine stops, and also a manual on/off switch. Richard


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: lancialulu on 18 July, 2013, 05:07:13 PM
Am I correct in thinking the mechanical pumps deliver fuel pressure pro rata to engine speed? One thing I have fitted in the past is an oil pressure switch which cuts the electrical supply to an electric fuel pump if fitted once the engine stops, and also a manual on/off switch. Richard

If you look at a mechanical pressure gauge with mech pump, it is surprisingly constant with revs albeit very spiky at lower revs - seems it self regulates - mind you I was testing on a series 2 fulvia that has a return pipe....


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: Zagato on 18 July, 2013, 08:35:23 PM
I believe that there are electric pumps Facet etc sold for both carb (lower pressure) and injection (higher pressure) applications ... so be sure to buy the correct unit

The Filter King I use is a metal body ... and you regulate the pressure using the screw on the top of the Filter King unit .... so you do not need a separate pressure regulator ,,, but you will need to set the pressure using a separate gauge ... unless you buy the model with the built in gauge ....

If in doubt ring a Facet dealer to ensure that you are buying the correct one for your car


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: ben on 21 July, 2013, 11:18:48 AM
Just to be sure you are thoroughly confused I would further reinforce the comments from B20B24 and recommend keeping the standard mechanical fuel pump.
I have the original pump on my Aprilia and have no vapourisation issues using the cheapest fuel I can find with no additives.
In my experience it is usually ignition components(eg coils and condensers) that give up in the heat.

Incidentally the design of typical mechanical pumps is such that the fuel is delivered to the carb under the force of the spring behind the diaphragm so the delivery pressure depends only on the spring strength and not the engine speed.
The rate of fuel delivery is matched to what the engine demands by the needle valve in the carb. up to the maximum that the pump can achieve. This maximum is dependent on the frequency at which the diaphragm is oscillated by it's driving cam which is of course directly a function of the prevailing engine speed.


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: fay66 on 21 July, 2013, 11:53:20 PM
My mechanical pump was changed about 7 years ago with a new one from Omicron and I've never had a problem with it since, the only reason for fitting an electric pump was to prime the carburettors, as the excessive churning over offended my mechanical sensibilities, as well as my fears of how long would the ring gear and starter motor last before giving up the ghost.
The electric pump has a switch with a warning light and other than the few seconds taken in priming, the pump is switched off.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: Chas1 on 22 July, 2013, 03:54:36 AM
My 1600 sport has an electric facet pump mounted adjacent to the coil and is purely for priming as it is switched via the choke you can't forget to switch off.  It doesn't have a regulator and starts on the button (if it doesn't you know something else needs tweaking).  The extra plumbing is a little unsightly.  Although only used for priming should a regulator be fitted?  I seem to recall old SU pumps having a 'pressure switch' built in.


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: the.cern on 22 July, 2013, 07:53:50 AM
Both my Appia and the B20 have an electric fuel pump, that is how they were when I bought them.

The Appia pump is used solely to prime the carb for starting. I agree wholly with Brian concerning mechanical sensibilities, but also on the Appia starter that there is a bridge in the starter motor that burns out if you keep it churning for too long.

With regard to the B20, it is so long since I drove it that I cannot recall the starting procedure. However, I did receive a fairly short, but blunt lecture over the phone from Harry Manning telling me that the original mechanical pump, as fitted, was perfectly  adequate for the car, if correctly maintained and an electric pump was totally unnecessary. I have yet to decide on whether or not to retain the electric pump in the rebuild, but have not thrown it away, yet !!

                                             Andy


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: DavidLaver on 22 July, 2013, 08:15:08 AM

Keep it !!

There's been a couple of bits in Viva regarding Aurelias and keeping the fuel cool.  My test was a commute through the Blackwall tunnel.  Others want to be able to tour in Italy in the summer.  Its one of the things with an Aurelia where it shows its age.

An electric fan is another sensible addition.  Just recently I've started seeing what I would call motorbike size fans on classic cars (I expect its in paddocks) sometimes in multiples which might be a way of fitting in something as well as the standard fan with the motivation being to keep the under bonnet view pure.

David


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: davidwheeler on 23 July, 2013, 12:09:58 PM
Mine are fitted in the back, in the boot in the Aprilia and behind the trim in the Fulvia Sport so are unobtrusive.  Seem to work OK, the Aprilia has a Filter King but the Fulvia merely the pump.   At least Lambdas don't need such things, if the ultra reliable Exhausteur (=Autovac) does pack up you merely pour a gallon into its tank and gravity does the rest.


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: St Volumex on 24 July, 2013, 12:36:05 PM
I bought a Facet FSE476087 fuel pump and a Filter King FSEFPR004 with 6 - 8 mm pipes for Carol's standard Fulvia 1.3S "Tigger".

The pump comes fitted with its own built-in filter to prevent damage to itself from tank debris, unlike the stupid original Bosch setup on my HPE VX.   ::)

One could probably argue against the Filter King being fitted with this pump, except it does provide fuel pressure regulation and a clear visual window on what's going on with the fuel.

Our Fulvia has a couple of handy bosses on the bodywork near the fuel piping where I plan to securely mount the Filter King.  :)

I have some pics, but unfortunately the "Upload Folder is full".


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: fay66 on 24 July, 2013, 01:40:20 PM
I bought a Facet FSE476087 fuel pump and a Filter King FSEFPR004 with 6 - 8 mm pipes for Carol's standard Fulvia 1.3S "Tigger".

The pump comes fitted with its own built-in filter to prevent damage to itself from tank debris, unlike the stupid original Bosch setup on my HPE VX.   ::)

One could probably argue against the Filter King being fitted with this pump, except it does provide fuel pressure regulation and a clear visual window on what's going on with the fuel.

Our Fulvia has a couple of handy bosses on the bodywork near the fuel piping where I plan to securely mount the Filter King.  :)

I have some pics, but unfortunately the "Upload Folder is full".
Guy,
Some Fulvias were fitted with a filter/pressure regulator so perhaps the bosses you've located might have been for one!
My Filter King came with a bracket that the filter /regulator mounts to, this was then mounted to the inner wing panel using two bolts and washers adjacent to where the metal fuel pipe connects to the fuel hose.
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: St Volumex on 25 July, 2013, 04:05:37 AM
Thanks Brian!

Here is a pic of the 3 bosses where the Filter King will be mounted.

Anyone got a pic of what Brian has described?


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: stanley sweet on 28 July, 2013, 10:47:41 AM
Here's another answer to fog the picture a bit more. About 5 years ago my mechanical pump packed up. I phoned Omicron who gave me a choice of a new one or a Facet silver top. I decided to go for the Facet as I had spent about 18 years listening to the engine turniing over trying to suck some fuel up and hoping the battery had the life left after a winter break. I was told by Omicron the silver top was right for the 1300 and it was pointed out that there might be a problem with pressure and if there was to fit a regulator. To be honest, I can't remember what the symptoms were if this was the case. Whatever it was didn't occur and as I said I've been running it for 5 years now, unregulated and without any problems. Starts instantly too. There's a bit of a debate about that, but I believe it was Andrea Nistri who had measured oil pressure etc on start up and decided it was better to get the engine started straight away. I've yet to get around to fitting an on/off switch. I've very recently heard about inertia switches to cut fuel in an accident. They're cheap enough, does anyone know how one would be wired into a Fulvia with a Facet? Or are they only for modern cars with big brains?

@Richard: Yes, you fitted an oil pressure switch to JLG. It was a 3 position, off, on with pressure switch, on permanently.


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: fay66 on 30 July, 2013, 12:02:18 AM
Thanks Brian!

Here is a pic of the 3 bosses where the Filter King will be mounted.

Anyone got a pic of what Brian has described?
Guy,
That's the right place but mine is mounted on the inner wing panel just above.
I can't find a photo at the moment but in the Tavoli in section Tav 10a there is an illustration of the filter.regulator itself, but not where it mounts.
The Tavoli states that it was fitted for vehicles destined for Greece.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: Richard Fridd on 30 July, 2013, 09:13:08 AM
Here is the original regulator fitted to my Fulvia Sport


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: fay66 on 30 July, 2013, 05:34:32 PM
Here is the original regulator fitted to my Fulvia Sport

Richard,
Does it have the filter with the glass bowl? as that is what is shown in the Tavoli.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: Richard Fridd on 30 July, 2013, 06:16:19 PM
I'll have a look next time I am at the garage Brian.


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: Richard Fridd on 31 July, 2013, 10:44:01 AM
Here is the filter element (used with mechanical fuel pump)


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: fay66 on 31 July, 2013, 11:58:33 PM
Here is the filter element (used with mechanical fuel pump)
Thank You Richard,
From What I can see it appears to be mounted about where Guy has the bosses.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Electric Fuel Pump and Filter King regulator
Post by: Richard Fridd on 12 August, 2013, 06:24:43 PM
Also shown in the photo is the mechanical fan cam adjuster, as mentioned in the thread regarding transmission belts. I also see in the current issue of VL, the Presedentiale Flaminias have electric fuel pumps and extra ignition coil 'to cover every eventuality'. Richard