Lancia Motor Club

For the story of how I sort of accidentally bought a decrepit Flavia Sport see the "for sale" thread:

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5920.0

More of that saga will follow in Viva Lancia.  It has sat for perhaps 35 years and the last ten or so in something of a compost bin.  Lots seized, lots turned to dust.  So far I've been back for a trip to clear out and clean up and again today to "stabalise the patient" for onward transport.

The best progress on the car is getting the dash straight, at least straight enough for now.  The steering wheel was a hazard from wood shards and a nuisannce with clouds of white dust every time it was touched.  Its been wrapped in paper, masking tape, duck tape.

Back at home the weighty and complex Lancia gear lever has provided much amusement relative to the lightweight and simple Zagato back seat.  Both have scrubbed up well enough to be going on with.

I think the photos really say it...

David

More...

...more...

Anyone know what that "berkshire" rack is from or for?  There was hafl a thought it was to open the rear window but now I think it might be for something like a green house.

Now on to today's fun.  Another day, another bucket.

The sills having emptied themselves onto the floor there's space to tuck sturdy bits of wood up inside tight to the top and inner edge of the sills.  Large wood screws secure this to the better metal.  At the front thin folded plate and sturdy right angle brackets are attached with roofing screws to the best of what's left.  The result is that leaning on it no longer results in an obvious bend - perhaps 10mm of bend and the slits opening up - I shiver to remember.

The door skin came off in my hand giving me a chance to show the more imaginative of you how Zagato made them.  Alas steel has shrunk and ali split.  I think the steel can be patched but the instinct is that a skin from scratch would be easier than making new edges.  I'm a long way off any of that...

The nice surprise is what we think is a stainless steel fuel tank.  Initially I'd thought ali but its pretty scratch resistant.

David

The window adjusts at the rear for the in-out fit but so far I can't see if it does so at the front.

David

David,
I'm truly impressed with your progress and enthusiasm so far, brilliant!
Quite surprised to see just how good the dash crash padding looks knowing how most padding that age has suffered.
See you are already equipped for 'Barney Rubble' method of propulsion with plenty of fresh air ventilation to go with it.
Interesting to see that the radiator shutter mechanism is near identical to "Fays"

Good luck and keep the great pictures coming..

Brian
8227 8)

What a project! At least it's back isn't completely broken as you suspected. That's not unknown even for the Pininfarina Coupes.

You are very brave David. Its obviously going to provide hours of pleasure (as it is already) and I just hope that the body hasnt sagged.
Keep the photos etc coming!

Well spotted Brian - the dash IS in good condition.  The base is ali - hence a "job of moments" to bully it back into shape.  Over that is a very thin layer of foam then the vinyl both of which would pass for three years old let alone 50.  The contrast is the foam behind the roof lining which is crispy and dusty.  It appears to be that they glued foam to the roof then glued the roof lining to the foam tucking edges under the window and door trims.  For now I've sprung a lath of wood to hold it out the way.  It could do with another one or two of those pending a decision as to its future.

Progress is good at this point because it has to be.  Once its home it will have to compete for time with fixing the fence and pruning the hedge and all the rest let alone the other projects.  We'll see...  There's a heap of easy stuff to be getting on with - like seat scrubbing - that suits a "little and often" type approach in those brain dead idle moments when its not worth starting something else - given I can make the space to have something out and ongoing.

Has the body sagged?  The drivers door shuts properly now the skin is out of the way.   At first I thought there was some droop but now (with the skin gone) I'm not so sure.  The passenger door won't be opened until its home.  I was watching the fit as I jacked under the hinge (with the plates in place) and it wasn't obviously moving and it's not obviously out of alignment.  Its not something that has worried me up to now with the thought being that, with so much metal having to come out (and having fallen out) the car will be whatever size and shape I make it.  They'll have to be some scheme to brace and jig. 

Hours of pleasure indeed.  Something as simple as pulling the back light bulb holders out for safe keeping and pondering how they work is fun.  The gear lever deserves its TAV posted here. (the TAV is a thousand pages)  Why not one bar from ball to gearbox?  Why such a weight?  I'm starting to sympathise with the FIAT lot when they first came in to see what was going so wrong.  The other TAVs that jumped out were the washer system, the horn/light thing in the steering wheel I knew all about already, the Jolly van brakes are extraordinary - they doubled up the front callipers and put in an extra booster.  I was thinking of the queue of traffic following one up the mountain to be left well behind down hill and round the corners.

David

Good work! One method of keeping the headling in place is to sew it to sheets of "aircraft ply", fastened to the roof structure (similar to sheet balsawood) and around the same weight as "west of england cloth" perhaps. Richard

Headling... 

The temptation I've fought off is thirty seconds with a knife and have it gone.  The wood lath has got me past that stage so I can sit in there without manky cloth and foam dust everywhere.  It was almost as bad as the flour fine dust off the steering wheel with each touch.   

Of course really it needs to come out carefully and be saved as a pattern.  However I'm in no rush to remove and store trims and glass and there's some satisfaction to be hand from playing at conservation.

The next step is to scrape at the foam and get a vacuum in there.  From then it could be as simple as a couple of strips of double sided carpet tape and an extra strip or two behind the rips.  Perhaps new foam could be inserted.  It could be several neater and colour matched wood laths.  Another thought is some wire hoops, on the Eddins Moto site he mentioned using TIG wire to hold headlining back up.

A left field idea is to paint it.  Painted canvass is the traditional small boat covering.  The paint saturates and sticks the canvass much like doing GRP.

The other temptation to fight is a non standard finish for all I like the idea of some polished aluminium round the edges and a minimal section of acoustic carpet or vinyl or something over the "easy bit".

David

At the risk of a deja vue moment David..........and as per my signature....."Gulp....just what have you done!"

My Aurelia looks as if its ready for the road compared to this sick little puppy..........;).......BUT..........the best of luck with it and hope to see a thread filled with endless pics, and experiences as you tread the road to complete restoration


P

Its an adventure.  On the one hand I say "no pressure" as there's no deadline and I'm not going to add up costs vs value let alone time, on the other hand its a properly scary prospect.  "What could possibly go wrong?"   Well...  it could have been pulled in half being loaded onto a truck.  That door skin might have dropped off on the way home.

One heart stopper was taking out the back seat.  The end dropped and got stuck in the big rusty hole in the floor.  It would have been all too easy to give it an impatient tug and put the first rip in nearly fifty years into it.

I've no idea how I'm going to brace or jig the thing.  I enjoy gas welding but the thinnest ali I've done is about 1/4in so that's like trying to learn to ride a unicycle from a tricycle.  Lots to think about and all sorts to learn aside from the straight "everything needs doing and its about as hard as it gets" nature of it.

I'm ready for screw ups and disasters, but without the risk of those the highs aren't there either.

David

Re moving the Sport next week and there being hills at both ends of the journey, remind me, how good are the brakes ?

No brakes. 

The idea is to inch a trailer down to the garages, unhitch and turn, then rehitch and load.  The trailer is low and the bed tilts so not too steep.  Wrap the car with a big ribbon on the top and pootle home.  Its a a couple of speed bumps then pretty easy.  No worries on that route keeping the speed down just hope not too many lights for stop-and-start.  Trailer onto the drive which is flat enough if you're not trying to push a big car on your own - more "camber" than "hill". 

If it had had to be a truck then it would be a tow behind a car up the service road and out to load and several brave helpers this end to keep it under control turning in on the hill.  The truck would also have been a steeper climb to load - the worry being pulling the poor thing in half.

We've thought about it...and no rush to get to the point where it will be moved and no rush on that day...

The one worry is the trailer width at the pickup end.  It might have to be a tow up to the street.

David

Had a sudden thought. Make a track from channel section, wheel the car onto the track and then winch the track up onto the trailer. No load on the Sport except that required to keep it on the track !!!!

Good luck, Andy

PS when are you aiming to do this ??

All set for Tuesday morning.  I will report the success or otherwise.

David

Home, and all in one piece.

David

Well done. Hope the wetness of this lovely spring weather didnt intervene.... and cause additional corrosive issues...

We all know what a bit of wet does to flat paint :)   "Just washed it for the photos" as they might say in Ebay-land, then some photos at a shallow angle down the side just before sunset.  You might not be able to polish a turd but in the right conditions you could photograph a shine on one.

Not ideal doing it in driving rain but all adds to the adventure...

The nice surprise was cutting the oil cooler hoses we found oil.  Checking the dipstick golden oil to level.  For sure its sat 40 years in the damp but that's better than black treacle or nothing but rust on the dip stick.

David

Well done !

Is it the first time Sara has seen the Sport "dans son jus" or "as it is" ? Reaction  ???

We were greeted with a grin.  It looks long low and lean back here in the context of other cars. 

Zoe joined myself and William this trip as photographer and chock-girl.  On the chocks the only "moment" was unloading when she didn't realise which side of the wheel the chock was wanted.  What could possibly go wrong eh?

Being so close has been a boon as it was collect, back, drop the trailer and keep going to collect the spare engine (thought to be 2000cc and it doesn't turn...) and the door skin.  Trailer was rented 100m off the direct route just short of half way.  Some back and forth with broken lights and a missing hook and finding the right keys but it did the job and the modern tilt mechanism is wonderful.  Unlatch, stand on the back and down it goes.  When loaded twist a knob and it tips back to relatch.  Child's play, but using children you might need two to have enough weight on the tail.

I was effin-tight getting down the little road to his lockups but having an old scruffy car we could drive through the hedge.  Fag paper stuff.  "It's all in the preparation" as they say and for good reason.  A great run back in the lightest of traffic.  By the time we'd collected the engine it was building up again and a lot of stop-start we were pleased to have missed. 

The only other update is that I had a try at the passenger door and it will be a task.  The good news the other side of the car is that the drivers door, less skin, is in good alignment.

David

Just as an aside, what is the stuff that you were using for cleaning teh vinyl seats. Is it effective?

Its something I picked up in Halfords bike department to clean a bike that had sat a decade or so.  It did a great job on the bike but not too good on the skin so best have gloves on.  It doesn't seem to be something to leave on to soak.  Give it a spray, then wipe with paper (I've got big blue rolls from a visit to the cash and carry with a friend).  The more stubbon stuff gets a drench then a going over with a toothbrush.  

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_216197_langId_-1_categoryId_228374

Some stains shifted with WD40.  Some stains remain.  I've yet to work out what solvent to try first.  Probably vinegar first, then white spirit but am open to suggestions.

David

I've continued to clear and strip out since it came home.  "Another day, another can of WD40".  Photos to follow. 

The sweetest moment is hard to describe but it was with the set of horns on the bench clearing off the grime with a toothbrush to find the sticker below in lovely condition.  Perhaps, with this car, it was not being prepared for a nice surprise.  Italian made but English text.

Yesterday with a friend here we tested the handbrake and it works...  Before moving it I'd not dare touch it for fear of it locking on.  I put the gear lever back in to stop it rolling.  All the gears select and I've now found reverse. 

David

 

David, you have me grinning constantly at your entertaining, grit-under-the-fingernails, down-to-earth project.

Keep (us) smiling.  ;D

Getting an engine free...

Instinct is to pull the engine out and take it to bits.  However with it in the car there's a chance to free it off rocking the car in gear. Finding golden oil to level on the dip stick has made me at least consider that option.  The Aprilia engine had everything just a little bit stuck adding up to locked.  The Strada Abarth engine (eventually) responded to the soak-and-rock method and now spins beautifully.  The Aprilia engine might have stood 70 years.  The Strada a mere decade.

The first problem is that being a flat four putting oil down the plug hole isn't going to help much.  Plan B - make plates to go over the exhaust manifold faces and "fill her up".  Through the intakes.  My concern here is that if it did come free an incompressible liquid would cause damage like trying to turn an engine over full of water.  Is that a justified concern?

The other facility this engine has is a top plate.  It's possible to change the big ends from above with the engine in the car.  I could fill the bores up from the underside.  But what damage might all that oil (or paraffin or diesel - I'm not brave enough for petrol) do elsewhere?  Perhaps leaking out the back onto the clutch.

A new concern on reading the Fulvia and Flavia collectors guide is that rocking the car in gear will result in the timing chain jumping.

Pulling out and to bits will give the bearings the best chance - it would be a shame to wipe a bearing.  It will also give each and every part a chance to soak before being disturbed.  It HAS to be the best method...doesn't it?

David

I'm not that familiar with the Flavia engine but I believe it's got liners. If it has and the engine is seized, and the seizure is between piston and liner, then rocking it may disturb the bottom seal on the liner (I assume there is some type of seal between the bottom of the liner and the block) which would likely give rise to a water leak.

I don't know what the seal arrangement is but I would be nervous about not looking at that area on a wet linered engine that hasn't been run for a fair while. If the seals dry out they shrink.

My inclination would be to remove it and do it on the bench.

Andrew Tait (cern) has reminded me that of course its Redex that goes down the bores to free off rings. 

Its what I used on the Fiat but my memory ain't good...  When I was stripping the Aprilia I was amazed how some could remember what size spanner I'd need for what and which bit came out of where when a week later I'd have struggled. 

David

For fans of the grit today is all about the smell of burning paint, clouds of rust dust and ooooops - I had my finger over the cooling vent and the angle grinder is now smoking...

Its a good one so a little fire isn't going to kill it.  I'm also glad I paid stupid money for an industrially rated corded drill that can run all day as hard as you like.

David

Any pictures - progress not flames ?

I'm taking a huge number of photos so getting them out the camera, resized and then the severe edit takes a fair bit of time.  At the moment the weather is just too good to waste sitting at a PC.

There will be photos - and a bit more detail as to what's been going on and what I've found as captions.

Today I really did do the flintstone / ant hill mob thing as I was sitting where the passenger seat would be with my feet out the rear foot well and it was too good an opportunity to miss.

David

So what are your plans for 'Patch' now David?

Fret not "Patch" (the Strada Abarth) got a touch more paint yesterday.  I will go back and have another go joining the 130TC forum...  William thought the inside of the roof deserved the same protection as for "severe marine application" and put more primer on instead of going for the gratification of the top coat.  We've just done the front foot before putting the painted roll cage top bar back in.  Lots of ragged holes but painted to stop it spreading and look like someone cares. 

We're using brush on zinc primer.  Brush sits in a jar of water ready to go.  Single pack, non drip.  Its lasted with no top coat on the Augusta and came out very well in several magazine long-term-tests.

http://www.bilthamber.com/paints-and-coatings/electrox

Unlike Simon's "I want to touch everything only the once" approach I'm of the mind that once you've got something free and off the first time taking it on and off later is no big deal - in fact it becomes a pleasure.  In time the screen will come out, the welding get done, and everything back in again but meanwhile it protected.

"April" (the Augusta) is well and enjoyed some sunshine (she was in the way of compost spreading) and is waiting for the rear mudguards to be hung in place if only to fill the cover better.

Another "on and off and on and off" example will be the Flavia's bumper.  Yesterday I started wire brushing the bumper on the car.  I was a bit nervous of snagging the blanket protecting the lights or slipping and having the brush cut through the body.  On my back to wire brush under I thought "maybe it won't take all that long to remove".  Having had several days of WD40 on the bolts they came quietly and pretty soon the bumper is in the back garden and some pipe insulation over the brackets on the car (to protect shins and the car cover).  To my eye it needs a bumper so when its been wire brushed, primed and painted it will go back on.  The car will look better, I don't need to find a place to store the bumper, the bumper won't rot any more.  In time I might bash the dents out and weld up the holes, or a filler and fibre repair, or a rechrome or a better bumper goes on or one of those stainless repros.   

I could buy new bumpers now, restore that one to as new.  However in its role as "static exhibit" the look of the car being the same all over is important.  If the body was pristine that bumper would look wrong.  Likewise with dents and paint scabs a new bumper would look wrong.

Coffee break over...

David

Well, it sounds like you've got plenty on the go. Great news that Patch is on the mend. You're definitely set up on the  130tc forum as I asked whether you're account had been activated. All keen to hear what the history/identity of Patch is. Lots of Primer and rust proofing is money well spent on a 130tc.

Glad the Flavia & 130tc are still making progress. It must be nice to flit between the two restorations and I tend to agree that once you've worked out how to do a job the first time then it's seldom as difficult the next.

For the seized engine engine, rocking it will very likely cause the timing chain to skip and bend the pushrods when fired up or cranked over. Filling the bores with oil or redex or any other liquid will only ever bend a con-rod :o never a valve. I would fill the bores to the plug thread and leave for a week or so and then gently try and turn it over in the correct direction but to be honest, it is going need a full rebuild anyway in all probability.

The engine will come out and to bits anyway.  As for rocking it free first there's too much to go wrong and it would be for little more than for the fun of it.  As so often patience will be rewarded.

This timing chain issue is something I don't quite understand yet.  I've read that with the very early cars a backfire would be enough to get it to skip.  All sounds a bit Gamma to me :)

Todays "victory" was the fuel filler pipe to tank connection.  The tank side has a very find thread and the filler pipe is clamped on with a big slotted nut/sleeve like a giant version of a hose pipe to a garden tap.  Photos to follow.  I had thought it would need a special tool but a biker friend put me on to this adjustable "hook wrench".

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/laser-4930-adjustable-hook-wrench-50-120mm 

Having soaked for a week or so (I bought another six pack of wd40 today as well as the spanner) it came quietly, and much of it was hand tight for all it would need a nudge with the spanner every now and then.  The joy of a Lancia: all that effort up front for our pleasure 50 years later.  The pipe could be confused with a bit of exhaust and is a single piece from the tank, along the back of the car, turn under the light, up to the back of the filler box and turn in with a cap on the end.  My hope is that I can get it through the rubber on the back of the box with the cap still on - that would let me open the flap from behind.

Machine Mart made me feel like a kid in a to shop.

David

I have enjoyed reading this thread, I am catching up with your progress only now. Keep up the good work . THANKS. David Mirolo. :) :)

There's a contrast with a Strada Abarth we have on the go at the moment.  Its 20 years younger but with that car its all about shearing the head off a bolt, when to use a chisel, when to get the grinder out.   Some will be how it was made, some how its been looked after.

David

David, have you stumbled on Toolstation. It is run like Screwfix/Argos so is not the Machine Mart toy shop, but it is often the cheapest readily available option. There is one not far from you.

                  Andy

Its right next door to my local screwfix.  I've been in but they've yet to have my money. 

Living in the smoke also B&Q, Wickes, Homebase, Selco, Jewsons, Halfords within a couple of miles - multiple branches of several of those so the puzzle is to get the prices I want on a handy route for the full list.  Wickes price promise (10pct less than the lowest you can point at) is great as is their van in the car park for a bacon roll and a cuppa.  In my first job this old boy would look at the rain lashing down on the window and say "its still too nice a day to be stuck in here" and I remember that having a cuppa and a roll in wickes car park in the drizzle.

Back to abrasives this has some funky stuff for anyone wanting to bling up castings:

https://www.turners-retreat.co.uk/

The J-Flex (cloth backed in inch wide rolls) is brilliant stuff I think was first for metal.  The inflatable drums I didn't really get on with (on wood). 

These are a copy of someone else's design - the originals are brilliant (for wood) and I'll look up the name later.  A proper precision tool and can load with anything you like off the roll.  I've yet to use them on metal but we'll see...

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-axminster-sleeveless-sanding-drums-prod896201/

Axminster are still brilliant for all they've grown.  Rutlands are also good.

Anyone use a portable HVLP?  Yet to be tempted but I don't really like rattle can spraying, I avoid spraying anything (but WD40!!) as much as possible.

David 

Somewhat delayed but here's the first batch of photos from the journey home.  The bonnet is up to remove the last few loose bits and bobs.  The oil cooler pipes had to be cut but, much to our surprise, out came good black oil.  Checking the dipstick golden oil to level. 

The weather wasn't good at all.  Drizzle at best and proper downpours at times.  We were in and out in surprisingly short order having had "the tour" as well.

The caption for the last one is "what have I done says the vendor, what have I done says the purchaser".

David

Photo 10 somewhat shows how tight.  I needed to drive through about 4ft of hedge on the left for about 20ft then on the right for 10ft.  Within an inch or so of that wall going down, got it a bit wider, perhaps 3in on the way back.  V.tight the last turn at the bottom out of sight as well.  Getting the other car out they gave up with the trailer and towed it up to the road.

Some good news that day was that the bumper and its mounts were strong enough to pull it.  William didn't like the groans loading but I think they were all the trailer.  (DO NOT TELL ME I'M DELUDED - I KNOW THAT ALREADY).

I understand that spare engine to be from a 2000.  Having now learnt where the number should be I can clean up the right spot and find out.  It doesn't turn.

David

What a shame that door skin fell off in my hand?   

No...how LUCKY.  Better that than when on the road. 

It also lets me see how to remove the door card which will help when it comes to removing the other door card which I'm starting to think necessary to get the other door open.

David

Ever the optimist David ! Glasses half full and all that, rather than half empty, looks like you did well to get it out of there with no incidents. Well done and keep up the good work.

Brian
8227 8)

Checked the door skin the other day and its single curvature so might be easier to start again than deal with the splits.  The alternatives are to flatten and weld, flatten and flush rivet on new edges, grind off the lip and stick it on.

David

David...am thoroughly enjoying your missives from S London, keep 'em coming and continue to fascinate the rest of the forum with your tenacity and never say die attitude...respect!


P

At some point it will get put to one side and other stuff in the queue progressed.  However the "stabilise the patient" phase has a long way to go and I'm also keen to work out quite what I've got and what might be a sensible plan for when I get to it "properly".

David

Some discussion as to colour:

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6286.msg44395#new

I got the fuel tank out.  All the bolts needed drilling but that done it came easily.

On one corner the seam has split with rust but it doesn't look far enough to leak.  Its an easy repair beyond the obvious risks associated with a fuel tank.

With the tank out the way I was able to fiddle the fuel cap end of the filler pipe out of its housing but as yet I can't get the cap itself off.  It unscrews but won't release.  Should the brass button in the middle of the cap stay still as I turn it?  Its a lovely thing so as yet no violence or tools have been used.  With the cap still on it won't pass through the boot floor.  Maybe it will go through the other way.

The rear structure is now clear, and rusted as it is almost a sectional model.  The valance wraps round the steel as it might on a door skin.  I've not look close enough to see if it has reacted as the main interest has been how little steel is there and what shape the remainder should be in.

David

I've had the ally tanks on the Stratos welded a couple of times now, never had any adverse effects from sparks as we've vented them by pumping a lot of exhaust gas through first. Connect a pipe to the end of your exhaust and put it into the tank and run it for 15 minutes! That'll eliminate any vapours.
Guy

Thanks Guy,
Great tip for anyone messing about with the tank.
Brian
8227 8)

The filler pipe came out last night.  The hole in the boot floor was made bigger by grabbing the edge with pliers and ripping.  There are times when all that rust is a help...

Petrol cap now off.  The sealing rubber had stuck the lid to the pipe.  WD40 softened it some and some split away on the pipe.  I scraped with a knife.  I like the Italian text on the cap.

David

Been busy of a warm evening and almost got all the floors in primer - but tonight I ran out.  However the other end of the job had had long enough to start on the gloss.  I can't wait to see it in the light...

The primer is water based and not nice to apply but has passed the "impossible to get off your arm where you leant on it" test.  The second coat is always a lot easier but still hard going.  Gloss is oil based and a goes on a treat.

David

What kind of primer are you using ? Does it have  a rust inhibitor/neutraliser in it ? I cannot get any decent waterbased metal paints here, so interested to know

Any pictures ?

Hello Simon
When I resprayed my Fulvia Coupé I bought all my materials from the UK because of cost (some 30% cheaper) and nobody would supply me with solvent based paint.
One French company was very helpful and correctly identified a Dupont code for the colour coat by using a spectrometer and feeding the info. into their Dupont database. The colour match was excellent. I was sorry that I couldn't use them.
Their name is Flauraud and I believe they have several branches in France. See www.flauraud.com
I ended up buying all my consumables from them.
Tim

Thanks Tim

I must admit that I buy it all in the UK as well. There is a reluctance to deal with non-professionals here as you know, so you can buy small quantities of poor quality product .....

Will follow up the Flauraud suggestion though, especially if can post it all.

Well - no surprise but painting in the dark is not a good idea...  Quite a bit needed to be redone.  Also at the end of the session I had painted the "quick and easy" rear foot wells (mostly holes) to see a bit more progress the next morning but that then prevented me getting in the car to do the back seat until it had fully hardened: a couple of extra days on the elapsed time.

I was proper grumpy thinking the weather had turned and it would soon be the kids holidays and I wouldn't get time and it would end up being left just as primer but I found a couple of weather windows and have a coat of gloss right over.  I'd like a second coat but it no longer worries me being left.

The primer:

http://dulux.trade-decorating.co.uk/products/info/dulux_trade_metalshield_quick_drying_metal_primer.jsp

The first time I used it was on aluminium and it worked a treat.  The data sheet says its zinc phosphate in acrylic so it should do the electrolytic thing to prevent rust.  I applied it over two coats of Fertan rust converter.

http://www.fertan.co.uk/Item-Fertan%20rust%20converter.htm

The tip from Fertan (great helpline) I hadn't followed (too late by the time I called) was to panel wipe (the worry being the wire brush had embedded grease in the pores).   The tip I DID follow was to spray the surface to reactivate in case it had dried too quick in the heat (a couple of spots) and then to wash the surface before primer.  I used plain water and a dishcloth.

The gloss is Dulux trade interior.  Their helpline is excellent as well.  I'd previously used the exterior grade on metal but their advice was that I don't need all the noxious chemicals that exterior wood benefits from and would prefer scratch resistance to flexibility.  I didn't use their Metalshield gloss as I can't get it colour matched.  Reading the info in the link below it says it CAN be tinted...it also says only four standard colours where I have a card with about thirty.  NEXT time eh????

Either of these:

http://dulux.trade-decorating.co.uk/products/info/dulux_trade_metalshield_gloss_finish.jsp
http://dulux.trade-decorating.co.uk/products/info/dulux_trade_high_gloss.jsp

This is ok but not as hard:

http://dulux.trade-decorating.co.uk/products/info/dulux_trade_weathershield_exterior_high_gloss.jsp

Anther primer I like is Bilt Hamber Electrox:

http://www.bilthamber.com/electrox

Solvent based but quick drying and the brush can be left in water for weeks if working "little and often".  I had intended to use this over fresh brushed steel but I didn't get what I thought was enough clean to make a start before the first bit went orange again.  At the time I thought I couldn't get the benefit of electrox over Fertan but I now know that not to be true.  I've used Dulux over Electrox and that works well as well.

Just to add some more confusion to the options Dulux also do solvent based Zinc Phosphate primer for steel of which I have no experience:

http://dulux.trade-decorating.co.uk/products/info/dulux_trade_metalshield_zinc_phosphate_primer.jsp

For clean up they mention Hammerite thinners which is a clue :)

Next time?  I like the Fertan, a lovely smell as much as anything.  I'm hard pressed to choose between the quick drying Dulux primer and the Bilt Hamber electrox.  Dulux goes on a bit better, dries smoother, water based cleanup, can buy it round the corner.  Electrox on price and all the magazine test reviews but not against Dulux who have my absolute trust anyway.  Can't go wrong with either.  For a top coat I might try the Dulux Metalshield but would phone them first to understand the benefits over the interior gloss.

I have photos on the PC and have made a start on the edit but will always prioritise "progress" over "report".  At least I'm not making you wait for Viva :)   On that front first article submitted and second in progress.
 
David
  

Some photos.

...more photos...

...and some more...

Great photos David, glad to note the T cut is available, but could not see where you might use it !!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the primer tips, they are to be squirrelled away.

                                   Andy

ooooooooo..... David, thanks for the photos but I have to admit that they gave me a nasty shudder of deja vu dumping me back 6 months to when we started the Fanalone rebuild and reliving the agony we went through to get to the finish line. Would I do it again? Probably not but hey! never say never!

However, I'm sure that you will succeed and Jonathan joins me in wishing you well. Enjoy!

Robin.

T-Cut : I was hoping that photo showed the "before" and "after".   The green hue in early photos - without looking its probably the "for sale" thread - is oxidised lacquer.  In areas where the lacquer is missing the paint looked a lot more blue.  Having t-cut the lacquer in areas where its good (very much a relative term here...) it even shines and reflects.  Last night I took some trick photos in the flattering last light at shallow angles to maximise that.   

The wings are a definite improvement and the car simply feels better sliding the cover on and off over smooth paint.  I've been pouring on the AutoGlym as well.  On the bonnet the only way to know it is better is to look at a "before" photo and the improvement can really only be shifting dirt.   For sure it often feels like an exercise in futility cutting and polishing paint that will come off - there's an argument to put that time into stripping - but more than likely it will remain a "static exhibit" for some time so the better it looks and the more the imagination has to grab hold of the better. 

As to "if I knew then what I know now I'd never have started" that's very much my problem.  There's no self deception here.  Its a rotter and even the good ones have been nightmares.  I have to keep reminding myself how so often people then add "but I'm glad I did it anyway". As much as anything I enjoy spending time with it.  Before I bought it I kept wanting to go back for another look and that hasn't worn off.

Little and often has been the key so far.  Wire brushing too much only to see it go orange was a mistake.  Painting in the dark and rushing into the foot wells was a mistake.  Doing a small area so I can see the difference helps with the feeling of futility moving it from appalling to merely bad.  When the next wave of visitors come it will be "I know its bad but you should have seen it before".

David

Excellent work David......keep it up, but then you don't need anyones encouragement, you just get on with it!

P

A similar colour I saw and liked at Brands Hatch on an Aston DB4 is "Caribbean pearl".  It was also used on (at least one) Aston Zagato.

http://cs.scaleautomag.com/sca/tips_techniques/f/8/t/84491.aspx?sort=DESC

The conclusion there was "PPG code #16826"

http://www.williamloughran.co.uk/news-details.php?id=4350036
http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/features/octane_features/274168/aston_martin_and_zagato.html

Doing the search now I see they use it on the current one:

www.astonmartin.co.nz/i/files/xagato_1.pdf‎

David

A question via email - can I hear the IPod?   Those ear defenders are a much better spec than normal and as such I can listen to speech, radio 4 or podcasts, with whatever noise be than an angle grinder or circular saw or pressure washer.  I mentioned them before when Andy Tait was settling down to several days of floor cleaning.

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2928.60

Doing all that wire brushing my tip is the best ear defenders you can find (these are the ones I got) and an IPod.  I found regular defenders only let me listen to music (and I'd still go crazy...) while with these I can listen to speech and there's the world of fantastic podcasts out there.   They've almost made that kind of chore a pleasure, for sure I want to keep going until whatever I'm listening to has ended rather than being desperate to quit for ANOTHER cuppa.

http://www.handheldaudio.co.uk/pages/catalog.asp?divitype=t&tp_id=112&root_name=Hearing+Protection&pic=

David

Following that link they no longer seem to stock them.  Amazon do:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/3M-Peltor-Optime-III-Defenders/dp/B000VDX18E/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I have to say that you are doing a splendid job David. It is all to easy in the heat of optimisim with a new project to strip it down to the last atom almost and then look in dismay at the vast collection of bits. I think getting the car clean and in a state where it will not get any worse is they way to go. I would also like to ask a favour..... Could you photograph the pull strap on the passenger door for me? My Sport is missing the original strap although I do have the end fittings and I would like to refit it to the car. Thanks and again, well done.

The subject of an artcle in the current VL I see. A good approach for tempting some more LMC members to join the forum which has been provided for them. I do still like the idea of 'small ads' and 'aromatic bundles of notes' however. Richard

Been away a week or so.  Will get that photo. 

Article was supposed to have photos with it but Jack printed before I pulled my finger out.  Seeing it today I was better pleased with it as a teaser.  Part II in progress.

David

David

Great stuff for VL. Keep it up.

Tim

Hi David, I'm glad there are people like you around willing to save such beautiful cars. What is the grey paint you have used on the floor? Does it have rust killing properties?

Stanley,

You need to scroll back to page 4 and "Reply #58 on: 25 July, 2013" for the run down on paint I used and paint I might have used and paint I might use next time.  A snippet:

The primer:

http://dulux.trade-decorating.co.uk/products/info/dulux_trade_metalshield_quick_drying_metal_primer.jsp

The first time I used it was on aluminium and it worked a treat.  The data sheet says its zinc phosphate in acrylic so it should do the electrolytic thing to prevent rust.  I applied it over two coats of Fertan rust converter.

David

This solvent based primer might be a better bet:

http://dulux.trade-decorating.co.uk/products/info/dulux_trade_metalshield_zinc_phosphate_primer.jsp

While stuff like hammerite ain't what it used to be and red lead is nothing like there's a world of excellent choices still for those fond of a brush.

David

Thanks David. That sounds like good stuff. I've got some light rust appearing on the floor of my Fulvia under the dreaded rubber mats. Have to say you certainly smartened up the floor no end and it makes it very clear where the areas that need cutting out etc are. I just love these Flavia Z's. So quirky but real style.

Last Friday we had some visitors: Richard Fridd, Andrew Tait and Colin Marr.  The cleaned seats went back in, sort of, and we braved some "five up" trials in various combinations.  

I can report that I am quite comfortable sitting behind 6ft of Colin, which bodes well, and that the seat width and foot room in the back is sufficient for three volunteers.  

The door alignment was out a bit but came back when unloaded.

David

Thanks for a fine afternoon David, and nice to see your lovely car, which looks even better 'in the metal' . Now I know about the lever which limits steering lock? Also nice to see the 'auto brake bleed system' is on this model. Richard

Richard - by better "in the metal" do you mean condition or the overall shape/lines?

For everyone else -

The steering idler box has a lever to switch between full lock and limited lock to permit snow chains.

A detail we all enjoyed that Colin showed us was in the ashtray.  I'd been wondering why this long spring loaded prong was there and if it was really supposed to push the ashtray out but it turns out it takes power to the lighter.  "What lighter?" I ask.  To open the ashtray you squeeze the two handles and pull.  Once open one of the handles slides out as the lighter.  It was enough to make me want to take up smoking...

Other "old school" details I liked when I first saw it were the thermostatic shutters as you'd see all the way back to Augustas (and earlier?) and the under dash lever to control the cabin fresh air inlet just behind the grill as you'd see on an Aurelia.   Its a contrast to the space age styling, front wheel drive and electric motor for the rear window.  It reminded me of Concorde which for all it was supersonic had a cockpit like a Lancaster bomber with dials and toggles everywhere to keep a flight engineer very busy indeed pumping fuel about to keep it balanced surfing its shockwave.

David

Condition and shape I think. Here is another Zagato project I would like to get my hands on

Something to aim for???

http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/car-advert/lancia/flavia/_/212928/?utm_source=classic_email_alerts&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=classic_cars_for_sale

I knew I should have kept mine..........................................

         I TOLD YOU NOT TO OPEN THE DOOR!!     WHY DO YOU THINK I TOOK THE WINDOWS OUT.

I think the price on that one in the US reflects what's been spent rather more then what someone might pay.  The last one at auction was half that and by all accounts absolutely mint having been restored by (word has it) someone with a 200 car collection and his own in house staff.

Back in the real world...I sincerely hope mine is never worth anything like that and I'll be happy to charge the speed humps and not lift through the width restrictions and take no prisoners on the roundabouts...and of course preserve all that "patina" in the best modern taste ;)   (or is that like being "green" when in fact you're just "mean" with the heating control?)

As for "progress" its still there in one piece, and fingers crossed I've found some bumpers for it.  I've been a bit swamped by the rest of life yet.  To my shame I've yet to sign up to the Flavia consortium.  I should also write Viva a "part II" and maybe this time some photos.

David

Yes, time for part 2 - with photos !

I had a chance for a Google just to be reassured.  This is the same car:

http://www.sportscardigest.com/cars-for-sale/weird-and-wonderful-1965-lancia-flavia-sport-zagato/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190847730034

"over $58,000.00 US Dollar in invoices".  That's more than £36K.

Bidding stopped at $27,600, that's £17,300 for a really nice one, a bit over half what someone paid for a perfect one, perhaps double what an "average" car (which always means less than average...) might command.

All is well with the world.  Its a lovely thing (in the eye of this beholder) but no investment.  No need to sweat the details to preserve the value or any such.  Just get it back together to any standard I can and use it.  One day it might be worth the same as a brand new Matiz or whatever the budget superminis are called these days.  It might one day command Citroen C1 money.

SO - forget prices and value - back on topic - alloy floor pans or stay with steel - discuss...

(I've been looking at what turned a DB4 into a DB4 GT into a DB4 Zagato as part of a "how could Bond in an ancient Aston keep pace with a Ferrari 355" argument.  The DB4 could be both lighter and, with an RSW race engine, more powerful).

David

To play the "how light could it go" game the Targa Florio Flavia Sport is VERY different but just looking at the seats they could be from a Fulvia HF.  Anyone able to tell me what they weigh?  If I get an answer I'll weigh an original seat.

I've a front bumper off the car - lighter for rust and smaller than the rear but a fair indication. 

Looking round the car there's not a lot that could come off or have holes drilled...   Bonnet and boot frames?  An alloy fuel tank.  Plexi windows.  The back seat weighs nothing.  The gear lever could shed a couple of kilos.

A lot of the weight is forward.  Anyone think the subframe is great for a saloon but over engineered for a Sport?  Anyone know what went into (perhaps I should say came out of) the competition cars?   

Visual differences include headlight plexiglass and a the fuel filler higher up in the pillar.

David

about 7kg :D

Not the works spec but perhaps Clever spaceframe of clever material, small as you like fuel tank replenished by a miser and fitted with a plastic cap, plexi glass, one seat, HF style light driveshafts and discs+pads  at minimum thickness with ally brake piston assemblies, opening panels minus their full frames, Magnesium wheels. Ally floor and lighter gear selection lever to mention a few things. Not wieght saving but negative front camber is a good mod. No underseal and the shell blast cleaned to minimum thickness. Some  of this done to my JLG Sport with good results. Also plenty of tools/spares in the boot to aid wieght distribution!

According to local legend the "how light can it go game' was played at the now defunct Valence Speed Hillclimb, which used to be organised by the Sevenoaks and District Motor Club This involved emptying the sump of a car to achieve FTD. Perhaps that story was embellished over the years.

The light drive shafts are new on me.  Was that something all the HF Fuvlias had?

David

From memory 13mm diameter rather than 17mm. TAV's say only the Fanalone and early S2 1600's had them on.

Please excuse me if this has been posted before - an extensive gallery of photos detailing the restoration of an ex-UK Flavia Sport (I'm sure some people on this forum will remember the car) in Greece.

Looked OK when bought (compared to David's car, if you'll forgive me saying so), but the restoration photos show a different and horribly familiar story...  Enjoy! 257 photos.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.550285914987918.147626.161524287197418&type=1 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.550285914987918.147626.161524287197418&type=1)

Its linked on the "for sale" thread but good to have it here as well.  This is my favourite:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=560847820598394&set=a.550285914987918.147626.161524287197418&type=3&theater

Notice the pile of sweepings?  Since first seeing this picture I've filled a couple of buckets and looking again wonder how, reduced to that point, that car is STILL dropping flakes of rust.

That photo also makes me wonder if its better to start with an empty jig and build up ALL new.  There is SOME good metal in my car - isn't there ???

David

Saw this and thought of you....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Flavia-Zagato-windscreen-surround-rubber-trim-/281199580067?pt=UK_CarParts_Vehicles_Manuals_Litterature_ET&hash=item4178cd13a3

Seller has a radiator grille too...

Must stop trawling eBay...

Guy

Unrepeatable at those prices, especially the grille. The screen would be good as well. Snap them up while you can parts for these cars should be bought as and when you see them

Thank you for the tip off. 

As to "buying policy" I've got to be careful with space as well as what I spend.  Time and fuel are also factors.

David

I was saving this update for a Viva article but with it being Christmas week I thought I'd share it here.

So...I did buy that screen and those grills off ebay...and they did turn out to be off this car...and along with the screen and rubber and chrome trim and the grill and the badge (and the grill and badge for the 2000HF as well) I also got, was given, the keys.  When I told a friend I had the original keys via a meeting on ebay he thought that was up there with "water into wine" and "feeding the 5000".

What a thrill.  After contemplating 50 forms of violence to get that fuel flap open.  Slip in the original key, twist, open.  The boot lock likewise, and both doors, and the ignition.  With a Flavia of course there are quirks - the locked boot has the push button flush.  The starter motor is a push.  Locks feel absolutely fine.  LOCKS AND KEYS!!!   The keys are the beautiful black and white FACTORY KEYS!!!   I now need a key fob worthy of them.

The screen isn't perfect.  A big chip and various little ones might be fillable and there's a matt section which I think is from rubbing in storage.  My hope is that when it comes to it I'll have the money for (and Pilkington have the proper double curvature moulds for) a new one.  If not I'm sure it could be filled and polished.  I'm a long way off the optical quality of the screen being an issue.  I can't wait to prop it in place.

The grill is fab-u-lous (its Strictly Final night - forgive me)  I was warned that some bars were bent but its very slight, nothing I'm ever going to bother to correct.  If it hit a bird it was a small one at low speed.  The badge is a twisted mess I'd rather have on the shelf that the front of the car (the theory is from an attempt to prise it off by a theif/collector) so that's another "want". 

Being stainless steel the grill and the screen surround are in brilliant condition, and should stay that way.

So how's that for a heart warmer?   Screen, trim, grill and keys re-united with the car they were made for.

My other great prize is a rear bumper from my expedition West with Simon Ingman.  It looks like a cut-n-shut from a front bumper, but I'm starting to think that's how they're all made.  I've also got a better looking boot lid and a much better bonnet to try.  Will they fit???  It was a magnificent trip, but that's another story I really might save for Viva first.

David

...and a boot interior panel.  Not perfect but for me just lovely to have another original part for the car.

David

Bumpers:

The front that came with the car is perforated and dented but straight.  My "new" one is better metal but twisted.  Maybe there's a good one to be had from the pair...  All I'm after is a painted not plated finish.

The rear is upside down in these photos - as Colin Clamp has now taught me.  At the front the number plate recess is wider and faces down.  To the rear its narrower (the recess and the bumper in total) and faces up under the square plate on the boot lid.  Its a pretty nice fit all the way round and usable condition, a real score. 

Thank you Dr Brian Hands.

David

Looking at the photos posted above I couldn't leave out the inside of the fuel flap - and a more conventional view as well of the grill.

David

Great News David,
Was the seller the person you bought the Flavia from?

Ingnition switch and keys look the same as on my 2c.

Brian
8227 8)

David, thats like Xmas, barmitzvah and lottery win combined.........simply brilliant.

Do we have a mathematician on the forum to work out the odds?

Am completely jealous of your fab original keys, mine went walkabout in that 10 week transit last year....:(

But when at the Imola Mostra Scambio last year I picked up a lovely silver key ring as befits a Lancia (horse before the cart and all that!).

At least for the bumper you now have something better to work with, hoping it turns out as you wish.

Looking forward to the Viva article too.


P

That's almost unbelievable David, guess trawling eBay does work out! I hope nobody else expects similar miracles from the things I find…..

Please keep posting updates, I love this thread as well as the Appia Furgoncino and anything James Parry posts about his various projects! There's little that can't be saved!

Cheers

Guy

Bumpers - there's a chance of one quite good front from those two and either are in with a chance alone.

The screen went to a friend of the previous owner to store, who tracked down the owner's son, who then listed them on ebay.  It was really good to meet him.  He'd done the sums and spoken to Omicron and dismissed the idea of doing something with it a few years back.  He's got a lovely Morini 3 1/2 with drum brakes and all sorts of interesting cars so that apple didn't fall far from the tree.

Odds with the keys?  When a car is that rare the odds are quite high.  Jay Leno has a similar story about tracking down a supercharger where he searched the globe only to find the only one available was just round the corner having been removed from his car that he'd bought in LA.

David

You might be interested to see that in the current C & SC this car is listed as half of one of the discoveries of the year

Just caught up with the latest here. That must have been such a satisfying day! What a strange coincidence that in the end you decided to go for the parts. If you'd just decided you couldn't buy them now they may have been lost to your car forever.

It was a great day.  In the morning I delivered a heap of Flavia Consortium bits to Colin Clamp.  In the afternoon I met someone who remembered riding in that car.

David

It survived the winter. 

One sunny Saturday I wiggled in the GRP console as much as somewhere to keep it, put the spare and the tank back in, and put the boot side panel in.   

I also did a trial fit of another boot lid but those photos are on another camera.  It fitted pretty well and the steel frame, while corroded along the bottom edge, is a lot better than mine where little of the bottom edge remains, the top is a long way gone and the sides far from pretty.  The collateral damage was a broken hinge so now need to be a bit careful with the boot when doing the tour - ie I have to do it rather than the tourists.

David

I love the detail (or not!!) of how the panel is made.  A couple of rough cut laths and some pins to stiffen up a thin bit of board.  Light and functional with a flap to - ahem - inspect the rear spring mount.  Some rips, a bit warped, but with a bulldog clip up the front it sits well and raises the tone.

The front seat needs a lot more work than I pretended to myself last year...  That wire in the back rest snags clothing and the foam is gone.

The back seat was better than I remembered.  Those side panels show the "before and after" and will be a gratifying job to clean those up as well when I need something mindless to do.

Overall no regrets at the efforts to date.  The car as a whole (hole...?) is a more cheerful prospect than "as found" and the "conservation" efforts have also been an inspection and familiarisation exercise.  "As found" it was a nasty thing to touch or to be in.  Thinking about that the headlining needs to come out.  Its nasty and never going to be part of the finished car.  Getting that out, the glue and foam scraped and a look at the roof structure would be "forwards".

David

The dash top makes big difference from "before".

David

Back seat - so much better than before - the dents seem to have lifted out with time - BUT those persistent stains... 

Any genius ideas?  All its been so far is WD40 and Halfords bike cleaner.

"One day" it might be a re-colour or re-trim but for now I'm just wanting to get the original material as clean as I can.

David

Another "before"...

Amazing. The car's lucky to have you, David.

You've been busy ......

Re. cleaning the upholstery, have you had a good scrub with a stiff nail brush and various products ? The vinyl should resist it. You could always try more vicious chemicals on an unseen bit before trying on the visible parts. I have used things like degreasers (Swarfega make a good one) and then followed up quite quickly with a vinyl polish or similar that re-moisturises the vinyl and stops it getting brittle.

Again on the back of a panel first !

That seat is a big improvement and the floor looks so much better than those early photos. The main thing is the seat being clean enough not to spoil clothes. By the sound of it, if it is resisting hard cleaning then it's not going to mark clothing. Depends what sort of finished standard you're aiming for. As you say, 'some day' a vinyl colouring product would do the trick. I quite like the stripped out look - especially that frame work around the gearstick. You could always build a Targa Florio rep and then you woudn't have to worry about upholstery - there's only be the drivers seat! Not sure what the family would say though. i see that a Fulvia fuel tank is a Flavia tank turned 90 derees. Or is it a larger capacity?

"Long term" for the trim I don't anticipate much more than mats, either rubber or coir.  If its noisy I'll try as I did in the Aurelia and stick some closed cell foam to the back of the mats.  The chances of this car being water tight are slim to nil so being able to pull the mats and get some air through is important.

That GRP centre console isn't a feature (looking at photos of other cars) I was all that fond of, I rather like the openness and the gear box hump (PFs and Vignales) but its growing on me.  It should have some vinyl trim but a surprising number of holes remain.  What's its begging for now is a push button radio.  Anyone an inspired idea as to which would be most appropriate?   One of the items that's come out of the car is the automatic aerial.  I'm rather fond of those going up and down on demand.

Engine degreaser is a good idea...  I've plenty of "hidden areas" on the side panels hidden by the seat cushion.

I'm itching to see the state of the roof structure.  Condensation damage?

David

Someone else's car.  It looks like the gear box hump gets a fitted cover.

David

Yes, there should be a 'carpet' over the tunnel hump. As for radio, Radiomobiles where often fitted in period and are quite cheap. The ultimate though would be a Voxson from Italy.

"Scruffy hand-me down hump cover" on the shopping list - or painted metal...

As for radios an English one (eg Radiomobile) would suit along with the Smith heated rear window and rear wiper. Mid 60s to early 70s for era.  I'm not aiming for "as it left the factory".

Two dates for when Radiomobile was founded (an EMI and Smiths joint venture)

http://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?company_id=7522

http://www.radiomobile.co.uk/

A friend got excited about the idea of a Becker Europa which was a new one on me.  Anyone know when and where FM came in and if someone might - in the early 70s - fit such a set to a UK car? 

Mounting though the holes is important rather than needing a single big rectangle to be cut.

For now "a static exhibit" but ultimately something with a lead in for an IPod would be nice.  Looking on EBay that doesn't rule Radiomobile out.

The other question is where the speakers were - and where they might go.

David

Hi David

You remember how i got around the problem of having loud mp3 music without cutting holes or mounting speakers in my flaminia? A small retro child’s suitcase. 

no connection to me but this ebay seller seems to have a regular supply of period radios of various makes, remanufactured for iPod, etc
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/chromelondon/m.html?item=221372179465&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item338acf6409&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

I chased down a Becker Europa:

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1114.0

Works very well. I think the Becker/Blaupunkt options are better than the Voxon/Radiomobile but they can cost a fair bit. There always seems to be quite a few for sale on German EBay, which is where I got mine from.

David, regarding your comments about a rear wiper and heated rear screen, I don't know where you would fit a rear wiper, there isn't enough room between the edge of the window frame and the boot lid, secondly the rear screen is so concaved that it wouldn't sit square on the glass, and thirdly (this also applies to the smiths heated rear screen ) there is absolutely no need for either..... you just open the window!!

The wiper and window heater are on it already.

Does clearing rain and demisting by opening the window assume forward motion? This is south London...

David

Looking at the Becker with the separate amp (Neil) I'm not sure it would fit - unless the amp could be mounted on top of the unit?

We also need to think about a speaker for FAY still.

David

The amp isn't fixed to the head unit and the flying lead is about a foot long so there's some scope for moving them around.

Tomorrow with be one year since the car was first advertised.  However I think the purchase date - 1st April - "All fools day" - is the more appropriate anniversary to mark.

Here's the "advert" post:

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5920.0

For all the progress has been minimal its been fun and fascinating.  Absolutely no regrets.

David

Time has flown

A pair of doors for sale:
http://www.prewarcar.com/index.php?option=com_caradvert&view=ad&section_id=5&id=93794&Itemid=112

They look pretty decent.  At the moment I think mine are repairable but its early days yet !!

David

Not something one sees everyday. Worth having as spares, or does the consortium hold such items?

Stuff does turn up - as here.  As ever the problems are price, delivery and storage.

The Greek (I think it was) restoration photo shows new door frames being made.  Looking at mine they have more the "home made" look than even "hand made" let alone something that requires a giant press to do.  Putting a straight edge on the door skins they seem to be single curvature so again not unachievable.

...or they might repair for a tenner's worth of steel...

There's also the point that by the time I've done the structural work who knows what shape doors I'm going to need :)

David

ONE YEAR !!

It still makes me smile just to think about that car...

David

A birthday prezzie (for the car not me) from Brian.  He had a stack of "maybe one day" radios along with the usual "I may as well keep the radio" pile.  He's decided not to fit a period radio but to rely on a modern amp with an IPod feed.  

As soon as I had it home I had the knobs off.  On the left the little outer knob twists to turn on (have to explain about that to the kids) and adjust the volume.  The rear knob moves independently, perhaps tone.  The right side is to tune.  Push buttons are as satisfying as ever and reset by pulling out, tuning, then pushing back.  Queue a conversation about how we used to change between the three TV channels.

I was worried that the centre panel not being a rectangle would be a problem but it fits what I assume to be the standard hole.  The tuner has a little trim adjustment and the GRP console had been cut to accommodate that.  Was that a standard thing?  Before my time...

David

When discussing the options Brian remembered Radiomobile as a quality choice, I liked it as a "period" name, the kids found it hilarious.  Motorola remains a respectable brand with the yoof as a police radio as much as a mobile phone.  As for the history of Motorola the parent company made hand held radios used on D-Day - a snipped from "Combat Dealers" which is 80pct TV nonsense but watchable for the last 20pct.

David

Some Motorola history and a picture of another one with the light on.  I've also found out that the set is long wave on one button and dates from the early 1960s.

http://www.antiqueradiomuseum.org/thecarradio.htm
http://www.motorola.com/us/consumers/about-motorola-us/About_Motorola-History-Timeline/About_Motorola-History-Timeline.html

David

Excellent, whilst you are scraping , you'll be able to tune into Radio Caroline and listen to some cool grooves from your favourite beat combos

There's something very nice about the styling of these old radios - have almost a juke box look to them. It will suit your Flavia. Because my Fulvia has progressed over the years down the HF-ish route it wouldn't look right, plus I just love listening to the growly engine now it's on socked intakes. But if my Fulvia was a bumpered, hub-capped civilised version, I would definitely have something like this in the dash.

It has a great heft to it.  Heavy to lift, meaty on off click and tuning buttons.  "One day" I'll open it up and see if I can easily reverse the polarity and try it. 

Money no object its one of the models that specialists list to service and install IPod leads but I expect I'd plump for a hidden amp like Brian and an IPod lead.  His amp was SO light and its an easy plug and play with plenty of power.  They also do versions with a radio built in.

Alas the garden swallowed all my spare time over the weekend but I did get to hold the radio in place to prove it can be fitted without pulling the console out.  (Cover needed a shake to clean it, while I'm here....) There's also a round hole facing the passenger to measure in the expectation its a standard speaker size.  "Job of an evening".

David

"Juke box" hadn't occurred to me but you are right.  Some of the photos on the web show it with a plain chrome front instead of the grooved ali plates.  I wondered about body colour plates or perhaps black wrinkle.  Got to get my priorities straight with that car :)

David

Body colour could be stylish. To me black crackle is a bit aircraft/British/MGB etc. With the lovely Flavia it has to be glamour all the way.

See how much your car is worth in bits....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271489963745&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:3160

......all his prices are towards the wishful thinking end of spectrum............


P

I'll be careful with them!!

If the worst happens that advert would be the honest answer to the question "how come its got different lights to that one over there?"   However I'd leave people to guess, and expect it would be something along the lines of "different year" or "no such thing as a standard Lancia" or "Zagato weren't good at keeping their parts bin full".

This was interesting:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PORSCHE-356-911-912-E-T-S-FORD-ESCORT-RALLY-WORKS-JACK-BILSTEIN-QUICK-LIFT-/271483408922?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f35ac121a

David

The lights remind me that while Julian saved the car from the crusher I saved it from being a parts car.  He was quite disappointed to find that the dash is in common with the saloons for example.  There was also the issue that something obvious like the steering wheel was falling apart, the mirrors are in horrible condition and so on.  The one bit that is special - maybe - is the gearbox with a longer final drive.

...and so every time I find parts that are usable and clean up its a big cheer - there's some life in it, it reassures that there might just be a great car in there waiting to get out, I'm reminded that it rolls and steers beautifully, there's clean oil in the sump, the gears select and over time more and more easily.

The last week or so I've had a "dirty hour" here and there - the horns work, the fuel pump works, the fuel filler cleaned up, the battery rubbers are all good, the rear hatch motor covers are good.  In time I'll fill those boxes with bling ready to go back on.

David

The inside of the pipe isn't great. When it comes to slosh sealing the tank I plan to use the cleaners in the kit on the filler - unless anyone has some bright idea as to how to clean the inside?  Wire brush on a flexishaft?

I need to get some of Simon's rubber preservative - I thing this is the stuff:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Autoglym-500ml-Vinyl-Rubber-Care/dp/B001151E5I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400579868&sr=8-1&keywords=autoglym+rubber+and+vinyl

These are from the "posh camera" - the before photos are in the "workshop camera".  Maybe cleaning fuel pipe isn't the most productive use of time but late at night with the radio on it was a great pleasure to find glowing green under the grime and to scrape off underseal etc.

I'm itching for some spare time on a bright warm day and have the headling out - I've concluded it HAS to come out - and finish cleaning the interior - a bit more work on the passenger seat and a lot more on the door and side panels.  Meanwhile I'm not short of bits to be cleaning up "of an evening".

David

Questions:

- What oil for the horns?

- What is that subframe for/from?

With the horns I also wondered if the Italian ones are always worn out while in the UK they are always as good as new.

Just because I had the camera in my hand:

Glad you were enjoying a beer and listening to some fine DAB radio while in your man shed!

If anyone has a spare 48 litri Flavia fuel cap I would be very grateful to hear.

Tim

...and if anyone knows how to re-rubber a cap?   For now I don't need it.  

Plan is to cut out every last bit I can reach, REALLY clean the surface, and use "some goop" to stick in a ring "of something".

The original rubber had become like glue.  It took a lot of force to get the cap to spin and it wasn't easy even then to remove it.

David

Iteresting as I have re rubbered a cap on my Ossa motorcycle. I have not found a rubber disk to date that does not expand over time due to the petrol fumes affecting it. I am currently using a hand cut ring of viton rubber 3mm thick. Secured in place by a few drops of super glue.

That's the rubber stuff !

For the tank, I cleaned it best I could then put a good handful of sharp stones in there and shook it before pressure washing and derusting/degreasing and rinsing again  - works pretty well.

Haven't you got a pot of special Fiam oil on the shelf ....

You could also use this: https://www.facebook.com/notes/retropart/rusty-petrol-tanks-the-molasses-cure/507365499281002

David, an important question, the answer to which may help many Lancia owners irrespective of the model in hand at any particular time. What ale do you recommend to facilitate stripping and cleaning parts? Also, please confirm that it should not be applied directly to automotive parts, but taken internally, as a lubricant, by each and every person working on said Lancia.

                                           Andy

PS is there an easy way to prevent the ale from over-lubricating the mouth and/or sense of balance?

That is local brew - "London Pale Ale" from Meantime Brewery.  I get it from Magestic.

http://www.meantimebrewing.com/

Another local to support - in this case for special occasions.

http://www.chapeldown.com/Products/104-chapel-down-vintage-reserve-brut-6-bottles.aspx

In terms of a car tip - taking the Strada tank out I syphoned with a bit of the cleaned up Flavia hose.  Nothing shifted the petrol taste until I tried a can of coke.  It was petrol burps all afternoon but the taste was gone.

David

Old petrol is horrid ! I cleaned the Appia tank outside the garage and Mathilda refused to walk past it , choosing to walk the extra yards to the front door to avoid it, so drinking the stuff .......

A picture quiz.  The radio I spotted from a mile away (thank you again Brian...) but what car is it in? 

The pair of speakers is my interest.

David

Aston Martin DB4?

Ok - I'm impressed. 

Perhaps this is harder?  It made me wonder just how sure they were about their brake system to have four lights at the top of the panel.  Perhaps those running the standard Flavia servo should have a similar accessory?

David

Bentley Continental

It was a Bentley "something".  A couple of photos of the DB4 with "my" radio as well. 

David

Of course I was also wondering quite what the blue was on that DBS.

I remember in the late 60's and early 70's me and my brother would visit the Motor Show at Earl's Court. Having seen all the exotica we would never see on the streets of Canning Town where we lived, we would emerge and ask each other which car we would have? Each year the answer was Aston Martin. I remember us staring in disbelief at a lime green Miura but although impressed we urchins decided the banana shaped seats would kill your back and Aston won again. All these years later I still love the understated style.

Its still there... 

About all I've done "recently" is rip some of the headlining out.  That was later the day Simon Ingman sat in it on (very much a flying) visit from France.  That was late October. I'm looking forward to seeing it in the light to work out what is glue residue and what it rust.  At least the main panel is ali so nothing like as bad as it looks here.

The headlining is pretty simple: thin stretchy cloth glued to foam glued to the roof.  An idea for something simpler is a pleated pad for the middle section (like a 2000's) and leave bare ali round the edges.  That came from someone familiar with Fiat 500s.

David

Lots of work to do but it's such a gorgeous car in that rear three quarter shot. Are you doing all the work outside or do you have garage space?

I've got garage space but that one has yet to go indoors.  It will have to at some point.  At the moment I've no time anyway so its academic.

David,

I have spent the last half hour going through all of the pages of your time with the Sport, and loved every minute, you really have taken on quite a challenge.

Keep up the hard work, and carry on posting photos of the resurrection, and remember, it will be worth it in the end.

Regards,

Bob Dow

I haven't even started... 

Had the cover off today with the excuse that the last of the leaves needed sweeping.  I had a close look at how the screen surround joins the roof.  Fascinating thing, and to keep positive all the more so with the construction exposed.  Rolls sweetly, gears drop in easily, steering is lovely even to push it back and forth.

No comments on these in the hope its more fun to try and work out what you are looking at.

More.

Those rear quarterlights are so quirky but I really like them. Looks great sitting on its whitewalls - real 60's glamour. Are all the body panels aluminium?

The one steel panel is the fuel filler flap.

Just using this as a place to store the link:

http://www.qpaints.co.uk/mule-skinner-brush-shank.html
http://www.qpaints.co.uk/mule-skin-brush.html

I see there is a Sport also in need of "tidying up" at http://www.verelancia.com/#/lancia-flavia-sport-nrestored/4587920437

Optimistic if nothing else!

Brian
8227 8)

Ye gods! A cheap runner! There is probably no worse car to "quick fix" than a Flavia Zagato as there are so many potentially weak areas. The body, brakes will be unusable, the engine seized, just doing a decent paint job would be difficult = I could go on. A snip at £10,000!!!!

A comment on an Appia thread prompted the following reply.  For completeness I thought I'd copy it here as well:

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6943.msg56915#msg56915

That Flavia Zagato is there as the mother of all projects to stop me buying anything else!!!  There was no expectation of a quick turn round or any sort of deadline.  It's a "journey as much as the arrival" project: the people and knowledge and skills and the simple plain preoccupying interest of it.  I've sometimes wondered if I have a weird phobia of running out of projects.  That Flavia is such a task it should keep me busy forever.  I've two other cars in the "running repairs" / "just needs using" / "list of niggles and improvements" categories. I've a car that needs "a bit of patching up and get it going" and another for "restoration and re-body" so you'd think I'd be ok for the foreseeable. 

Not sure its always good to ask "what was I thinking" but I've yet to regret that car.

What drew me in...?  I fell for the look and the packaging, the ability to cruise all day on the motorway, the proven rally heritage in the mountains.  (Looking at that list I also think as a replacement for the Aurelia I had to let go, along with the thought that its "better" in many ways: brakes, first gear, stability, visibility, ride, refinement but still with much of the old school build quality and a coach build besides).  The other cars are much more toys than the Flavia, a proper grown up use every day go anywhere GT.

The rotten ali over a failed structure with some extremely rare bits to find or replace?  I think that was part of the draw, along with the challenge to even move it, but the prize at the end had to be worth the trial.  It responded so well to the first few hours - dash pulled straight, gear lever in place and the gears selected beautifully, scrub up the seats.  It rolls and steers so nicely and the handbrake works.   

Its a static exhibit, a focus of long term ambition. Its fun to have, fun to work on.

David

Some recent photos having had a shuffle for access.  I found it interesting to see just how small the MG is.  One is an ideal mount for a morning round the Kent lanes, the other for a run to Goodwood, or Turin, or Palermo.

The close ups are of the door structure.  More than likely they will be "build to pattern" rather than repair. 

I'm still more of a mind to take that approach to the structure as well: start making floors, sills, rear seat, rear legs, wheel housings, boot floor, rear cross member and have all of that spanking new on a jig before starting to take what I have to bits.  Its all so far off that at the moment its what might be described as "a thought experiment".  Another suggestion, I think Richard Fridd's, is to take inspiration from an Alfa TZ.

Who knows...but fun to ponder...and a pleasure just to look at and experience...

David

Love the aggressive Flavia snout in the first photo. You're quite right - the Midget is for a summer run down to the Jackdaw (the pub in the Battle of Britain with the Home Guard outside - used to stop there sometimes on the way back from Lydden) while the Flavia needs to be pointed to the Alps. The Flavia Sport is one of those cars that if somebody who had never seen one asked you what it looked similar too, the answer would be 'Ummm, errrrrrr......................' Lancia were certainly individualistic.

I described my colour hunt to someone recently as "looking for the colour I think it is".

That could be one of the many colours on it (with different levels of fade and oxidization and polishing), or one of the colours it was when I first saw it (which again varied over the car and varied with the light) or the colour from one of the early photos I kept going back to, or none of the above but just something in my minds eye.

I'd like it to be the colour from the press photo with the car parked in front of a rack of chassis, but from how press photos vary both between different images of the same car and also different prints of the same image who knows.

There's time to sort it all out, PLENTY of time.

David

Cover off today with friends staying.  Still there.  Still makes me smile...

Nearly 11 months since the last post!!! It still makes you smile ..... that says it all!!!!

Whenever I see or hear a mention of a Sport it makes me smile too as I think of yours just sitting there somehow knowing that its day WILL come ..... I am not sure that it will be soon, but I am certain that one day David, you will get round to the Sport. In the meantime it is enough just to know it's there!!!! That is how I felt about the Gussie and the B20 .... and I could be quite abrupt when someone suggested that I should sell one or both!!!!!

                                                   Andy

Rolled back easily.  Steering still lovely, gear change still sweet.  Wood hasn't rotted :-) 

I just thought this might be of interest to readers of this thread: a red Sport for restoration for sale in France at 32,000 euro (negotiable). The front bumper caught my eye.

https://www.autoscout24.com/classified-detail/detail-page/36b7b430-3975-6775-e053-e350040a8bd3 (https://www.autoscout24.com/classified-detail/detail-page/36b7b430-3975-6775-e053-e350040a8bd3)

Looks like they were meant for something with a bigger bumper and have been cobbled up to fit!
I can think of a lot better ways to spend 32,000 euros ( If I had them) than this sorry example.

Brian
8227 8)

I'd consider selling my Flavia for 32,000 euros.... just saying! That said, when I finally get the wheel bearing sorted I'll be back in love again.

Stumbled on this.  Another Zagato with a 'top curve' on the windows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAaPlH-Urjo&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs

I noticed on the original body shell with the windows out that the curve of the windscreen surround is very reminiscent of the Flavia. The way the windscreen glass is done in sections is fascinating. Presumably the door windows don't wind down.

Some photos:

http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/photo/456265,9139/1949-Fiat-750-MM-Topolino_photo.aspx

Can't say I like the Bustle bum, but otherwise lovely, although I didn't realise just how small it is.
Brian
8227 8)

Gave it a once over today with Zoe - and looked at some photos for inspiration.

...and a Fulvia not a Flavia but a good one for the subframe concept.

Not quite as clear in this one of a Flavia.

Again Fulvia - but a nice view of "structure" vs "skin"

.

Is the subframe good?

That's not my subframe just the best photo I could find.

I haven't given mine a proper poke and I won't REALLY know until its all apart. Perhaps another way to look at it is that relative to the rest of the car the subframe is brilliant, perhaps the best feature.

I would expect yours to have twin carbs????

Twin carbs and a long (grandfather clock pendulum) gear lever into a four speed box.

Longaleva?

Rather alarming that even this thread has been untouched since 2017. 

Colin turned up an advert for a similar colour car in Germany.  I had thought my "car" (ahem...almost a car...) had a non standard respray in the '70s but it looks like it might have been a Lancia colour, and a colour correct for the model and year.

https://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=11458.msg81246#msg81246

In 2014 I started a thread trying to identify the colour:

https://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7021.0

As well as the usual issue with colours changing with the light and angle, and reproductions unreliable with cameras and post processing, I'm also up against "colour as found", "as washed", and "as cut back".  Just for the fun of it am hoping to get a can of something to spray a sample to see if anything on the car matches, and something large enough to work out if its a colour I like.

First time I've seen this thread David so started reading from the beginning...that still looks like a task!
I was looking forward to seeing how you'd got on..any plans for the car?

There was another thread, sadly lost, covering how it came to light just down the road from here, and how I went to look at it convinced it would be much worse than others thought, found it to be much worse than I thought, and brought it home anyway...

What was I thinking?  They're so much nicer in the metal than pictures!!!  It was also a "rescue puppy" thing.  It answers the "what will I do when the others are done?" question definitively as it will clearly take a very long time to get anywhere with. 

When (if...) its done its a car I can imagine using: they're geared for motorways and have power in reserve for hills, lots of luggage space, the back is ok for adults as long as those in front and the back aren't too tall (I'm not). Lots of headroom and of course those rear windows, and rearvsunvisors. Its a car where sitting in the BACK has a sense of occasion.  Nicely shaped seats in the back as well.  I like sitting in the back.  Low wind noise, refined mechanically.

Of course they raced and rallied in period, for all I can't imagine ever having the money to do much more than local 12 car rallies or "demo runs" at Brands Italia or up Prescot, but never say never.  Its more likely to be de-tuned than tuned.  An attraction of Flavias in general is that mechanical "big lump" spares are still about.  This car came with another engine Practical Classics stripped for a feature.  I had an Aurelia (in a previous life) and just the wheels were becoming problematic, let alone pot joints in the rear drive shafts, cylinder heads with meat on them etc etc etc, and prices of the spares might even have gone up more than the cars.  If the engine needs a lot of expensive work I'll source another...

Flavias and the early Fulvias combine an almost vintage build and feel with modern sure footedness and brakes.  Belts fitted from new.  Good ventilation.

This one rolls and steers sweetly, gears snick in, someone had changed the oil recently for all the engine doesn't turn.  It hasn't fought me from the start: everything had undone nicely, the bonnet dent popped back out, I was able to get the dash back to shape by hand etc.  Others with Flavia Sports have been a pleasure to meet.  Its a treat every time the cover comes off for a "show and tell".  Its an intriguing thing working out where "Lancia" meets "Zagato" and what's going to have to be done differently if its going to last.  They have a reputation for the front end pulling off and sagging to the extent screens crack.  Ali over a steel frame doesn't last.  Pillars not really up to the task.  I'm not a purist so am willing to beef stuff up and where panel return edges have rotted off I'll be content to remove them and use adhesive, at least to use modern sealants.  I like gas welding but haven't yet mastered aluminium let alone whatever particular grade they're made of so I'm not expecting to be welding new edges on, but by the time I come to it I might have picked that skill up.  I'd like to be able to gas weld aluminium in the same way others want to climb Mount McKinley or get under 3 hours for a marathon.

The reason for the lack of progress is that "life got in the way": I've had zero time for any car stuff for a couple of years now.  However I've still the desire should the "window of opportunity reopen" to spend any and every spare moment in the garage on such projects.

Plans?  For all each time I look its better than I remembered I expect building a chassis from scratch will probably be quicker and easier than trying to repair what's there.  The back is terrible so that's the end to start.  I've yet to poke about at the front all that much so maybe the dash forwards will be repaired rather than replaced.  Sills are not just bad but missing.  The floor is either very thin or missing.  I'd not trust the rear cross member.  Rear rails over the springs to be replaced.  Rear cross member/valance has enough to see what it should be but not really repairable.  The other "sensible way forwards" would be to source a Berlina with "beyond economic repair" interior and cosmetics and use bits of its structure wholesale.  The third option that gets discussed is to build a rollcage that links the front subframe to the rear spring mounts and work from there.  Richard Fridd suggested an Alfa TZ type structure and play the "how light can you get it" game.

For the pressed sections I can make wooden hammer forms in my sleep so the ambition is to get it looking "factory" rather than flat sheets, but I might get impatient.  I've a bead roller and my brother inlaw is keen to have a chance to use his fly press, he's a machine tool collector and restorer having given up the pretence he was ever going to make something with them.

Anyway - what a ramble - in brief if "its the doing not the done" then there's plenty to keep me busy, and if by some fluke of nature it ever is "done" then its a car I'd love to have and use.

Just tried the wayback archive, I can see the thread but not get in...grrrrr....

http://web.archive.org/web/20130606010609/http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=4.0

A fascinating car and story.

loved the big timbers substituting for sills!

hope that one day it'll be saved.

Ahh...The legendary South London Sport! Hats off to David for taking it on. I seem to remember Omicron having one for restoration but chickened out...any sitings of it recently?
Clarkey

Timbers in the sills - of course it doesn't have to face an MOT so if I tip it to one side, wd40 down the bores, tip it the other way for the other side, I'm sure I'll have it running for the Goodwood track day :)

I'm TRYING not to fill the house with "just in case" spares, but I made the decision to get the modern brake booster when it came back into stock and a few odds and ends have come this way.  Its a rare car, but based on something they made a large number of with most of the rest hand made so I travel in hope.