Lancia Motor Club

At last I'm having a go at telling the tale of the abortive attempt to drive to the National Weekend via N Wales in my lovely little Appia.

I started from Westcliff on 22nd Sept to drive to Llanrwst to stay for a week and then home via the National Weekend on the 30th. I had not gone 3mls when, in top, under load at 40mph there was a most horrendous noise from the engine/gearbox area. I at first thought that it was something loose under the bonnet that was vibrating as the engine came under load. Into a garage (this was 0600hrs and it was dark) to tape up anything that could be loose, the rad shutters were prime culprit. Start off again, no problem accelerating away ie engine under load, until we hit 40mph in top !!! Much muttering and cursing, into the next garage check things again, more tape on rad shutters and off again. Repeat performance, no problem 'til 40 mph so stop again more tape and a bit of wire too, to make certain. Same again, no problem, despite accelerating hard, until 40mph!!!  One more stop and think about what to do ... ahead was 150mls of motorway and 100mls of the A5, behind me was 20mls of the A127 and home. No contest, tail between legs I headed for home, transferred my tools and luggage into the Transit, put the Appia in the garage  and headed off to N Wales.

In Wales it rained for the next 6 days, so the Appia would not have been happy if it had made it !!

On Sunday I headed off to Crewe Hall, meeting up by pure chance with the Parry convoy on the A483 and enjoyed a grey but dry few hours chatting and looking at the cars, particularly the Gussies before heading for home ... excellent.

A few days later and a test drive in the Appia did not help to define the source of the noise, but an MOT was due , so I presented to the car to 'good old Ivor', told him the tale and we had a good look everywhere while the car was on the lift. Nothing obvious and a test drive with Ivor in the car was no more helpful. Revving the engine does not produce the noise, but it has now started to occur when in third gear and at a lower speed. Not what I had hoped for, but .................. it did get its MOT !!!!!!!!

I spoke to Don Cross who had had a similar problem which he eventually traced to the tip of the fan just hitting the radiator drain/bottom hose assembly when under load. That, I thought, would produce exactly the noise I am getting ..... but life is never that kind and, on inspection, I could find no sign of any such contact.  Somewhat despondent, I set the car in the garage and it now sits on blocks and axle stands ready for me to remove the prop shaft and drop the gearbox. I am just hoping that something will present itself during this exercise and I can remedy the situation. This will not happen immediately as other things, more pressing have arisen.

In the meantime, if anyone can help with a suggestion as to a possible cause of this awful noise I would be extremely grateful.

                                                    Andy

I would take a close look at the engine mountings, in case one has broken and is now allowing the engine to move slightly to where it shouldn't be -and touching somewhere. I seem to remember James having that problem on his Appia. Good luck finding and curing the problem.
 Regards, John

Before you start taking things off, can you support the car securely rear wheels off the ground over a pit and "drive" it at said 40mph?  If necessary, your co-pilot could apply load via the handbrake.  That is how I identified the prop shaft vibration on Old Boot, studying it from below.  I would think if it does not happen under acceleration it is less likely that the engine is moving but you never know.

Well, I can only say that I am extremely disappointed, but that, I regret is, from time to time, what life is like.

As I said before, I would not be tackling the Appia noise problem immediately due to other pressing matters. Such matters continue to press, but I have had a shot at diagnosis and indeed remedial works!!

The poor little thing languished in the garage from October until the end of February when David Laver dropped by to collect a couple of bits. The weather was not that bad, one of those infrequent days this winter when it was bearable, so the Appia was rolled out and, together with his two sons (ages 11 and 13) off we went for a jolly and a visit to the workshop to see the B20. Well none of us are overweight but with the extra load the tapping/ knocking noise did not need much to appear. Having got back to the garage, David pulled and pushed the engine and it was clear that, as John suggested might be the case, the engine mountings were not doing their bit in the proper way. Excellent thought I, a diagnosis, we are halfway there!!! A call to Don, yes the rubber blocks/bushes that fail in the mounts are available and, in due course they arrived. Sum up the courage to venture out of the house into the wind and cold of the garage, scrabble around on the floor under the car and extricate the mounts, which kindly surrendered without too much of a fight. Dismantling them is a knack, thanks for the tips Don, and yes they did need attention. Both mounts had distorted (photo) and I estimated that as a result the engine was sitting some 10mm too far forward. The odd thing was that, of the of the three rubber brushes in each mount, two had been replaced relatively recently whilst the third, at the top of the spring had not. These two bushes, one each side, were in very poor condition, oil had softened the rubber and they were both badly split. I rebuilt the mountings with the new bushes, that got rid of the distortion and installed them in the car. I pulled and tugged on the engine which was much more constrained with the new mountings and tested gear selection which was perfectly ok. Excellent, now for a test drive ...... It was a clear three weeks from installing the mountings until the salt, liberally scattered by our Council, was washed away and I felt able to carry out the test drive, that was yesterday. Suffice it to say that I got to the first hill and lo and behold the same noise. I have omitted the expletives for the benefit of the more sensitive readers!!! Anyway, I was not by happy !!!

I am convinced that the noise is not from within the mechanicals ie it is not big/little ends, tappet noise etc, but is from an external source. So, with my fingers crossed I propose to continue to drive it, not hard and probably not a great distance, to try to provoke failure or a chance diagnosis.

Of course, any suggestions will be gratefully received .....

                         Andy

PS. I need to submit photos separately, technical matters that my non IT brain cannot overcome

Photos, I hope these are attached and also not upside down !!!

I've moved from the i pad to the chromebook, both are new to me so lets see what happens !!!!

The first photo shows one of the mountings, upside down unfortunately, but you may see how the nut is offset to the left from an axis drawn through the centre of the bracket (with three bolt holes) which is the element bolted to the crankcase.


The second photo shows the two bushes set at the top of the spring in each mounting. Both are in a bad way. If you look carefully at the one on the right, you can see the table surface through the split !!!  These two are, I consider, the reason why there is such distortion in each of the assembled mountings.

Now I must wait to see how things develop !!!

                                   Andy

Tapping could be because the long push rods no longer have the original buckets in place, mine doesn't. (Don knows about this), or caused by radiator mounting bushes worn, or loose hub caps, or worn steering arm bushes, push the steering arm up and down to check. Hope this helps.

Ahhhh.  I feel your pain but it IS progress...

When fault finding computer systems I used to "reassure" the cheerful young things that fixing A problem doesn't automatically mean you've fixed THE problem.  Then when proved correct I'd pick them up with "but that problem DID need fixing..."   You might still have the noise but you now know the engine is tied in and "in a better place".  

You also know its not the air filter - because we went for a run with that removed.  

You also know it pulls well and cleanly four up.

Did we prove it is in several different gears?  That would eliminate a missing tooth.

My memory isn't that good but was it engine rev dependant or road speed?

From the "solo" to "four up" test we know it depends on load.  To make it show at town speeds a boot full of something heavy.  Bags of sand or something.  You've got the hills to show it up.  If you lived in the fens you wouldn't know you had a problem :)

A rolling road test was one idea - run it under load with the bonnet up and have a look and listen.  For the benefit of the others we suspected a section of throttle link but bent it out the way, also was it the inlet manifold a bit close to the side?  We put some masking tape on it hoping for a tell-tale but it wasn't marked.  The other thought was to place a ball of bluetack in that gap and see how thin it was squashed (like with plastigauge).

Rather less exotic - get it into the local friendly MOT test bay and have a prod about the gearbox mount and the prop shaft joints.

Is there a leaf spring in the engine mount or all rubber?  If the engine is mounted to welded brackets any signs of cracking such that the mount is flapping?

The fan had lots of clearance.  To eliminate that once and for all a short run with the belt removed?  It should be ok to run a short while without a water pump if that's on the same belt.

You'll find it eventually...and I'm sure find a few more "stitch in time" issues (NOT blind alleys!!) along the way.

David

I replied before the photos.  Any chance those springs are weak and permitting a clap to develop?

I don't remember shaking the radiator - that's a simple test for something obvious.

Tappets / buckets.  It's quite a sharp "clack" like a tappet but its load dependant... Is there a way for the push rods slap about side to side?  Can the timing chain slap about?  Would crank end float show at the pulley with someone pressing on and off the clutch?

Noises are strange things that travel though a structure but it sounds so very much like something on the engine clapping (as in applause) on the side of the engine bay...

Ah - the other thought at the time was an exhaust blow either at the manifold joint or the down pipe.  My Aurelia made a similar noise when the down pipe gasket went.

David

  Hi Andy
      Could that broken dynamo mount suddenly be making its presence felt?
      It does seem to me that something has broken for the problem to have appeared so suddenly.
      The way you described it originally ie coming in when you changed into top gear at 40ish suggests it is torque related so having done the engine mounts I would look at the gearbox mount next and then the prop-shaft.
      Wish I was closer so I could come and help!
                                                                                Ben
                                               

It is definitely with load. 

David

It is getting worse !!!!!   

It appears more readily and that with a lighter load, ie myself and a 5yr old grandson. The grandson, Tom, is one bit of good news, at last a member of the family for whom, with things mechanical, there is an attention span of greater than 5mins !!! I have started the training !!!

I worked my way through a couple of things, the radiator is firm on its mountings, a loose clamp has been tightened, but to no avail. I have previously looked at the propshaft and that seems in good order, also there is no vibration at any speed up to 40mph. I have not been faster than that as the noise is horrendous and I have not yet got so desperate as to try to drive through it !! The gearbox mount seems in good order in that there is absolutely no movement on it. I have checked the dynamo mountings and they seem tight and in good order.

I think the next area of investigation must be the tappets and also the exhaust manifold gasket, although the noise seems to have too heavy a note to be that.

I will keep hunting and am sure something will either come to light , or simply break !!! I hope not the latter, but if it is at least I will know what I have to mend !!

                           Andy

Can you "feel" the noise either through feet (floor), or hands (streeing wheel, gear stick), or is it just audiable. If the latter I would suspect something in the engine. I knew of Cristo's Appia snapping a push rod and the engine made a hell of a racket. Anyway with these nice days now on us the pressure is on!!!

Well Tim, there is nothing to feel through either feet or hands nor indeed through ones posterior !!!

I regret to say that I am with you now and beginning to think that it is a problem within the engine and, unless a final check on the propshaft and its joints shows up anything, it will be off with the rocker covers. I did zip the plugs out yesterday and they are identical in terms of soot and burn pattern so if its in the engine it may well be below head level, oh dear !!!

Now, where did my energy go ????

                                      Andy

Is it easy to drop the sump on an Appia like a Fulvia.....?

Hi it might be engine noise however I used to own that car and the guy who rebuilt the engine was a very good engineer.it would be very doubtful.
However Tim is right my series 2 has been breaking pushrods 3 had metal fatigue on the ali tubes they still open but under load they rattle like hell.
The other problem on these cars are the gear linkage under load that will rattle too which might be the real problem. My series one did that.
Have you checked rubber cones on props haft as they produce the same effect under load when old.
And the last thing to check which also goes wrong is the back plate off the generator if the brass bush in the back of generator has not been oiled it goes dry then wears the casing it will still work but under load it would make a lot of noise

This really is becoming a challenge !!!!!

I have replaced the gearbox mounting !  Not an easy job, especially when there is no lift or pit. I started on my own and stripped it all down. Disconnect top hose, disconnect clutch linkage, disconnect exhaust, disconnect gear linkage, lose bush from gear linkage !!!!!!  That wasted an hour !!!! I had given up and asked Jim to make a new bush when it reappeared, in a place I swear I had checked five times previously !!! I tried to drive the bush out (it is a voided silentblock) but I had not appreciated there was a clamp. Call to 'good ole Jim' who made an extractor and appeared on Saturday morning for what we thought would be a couple of hours work!!!  Well, 8hrs later we had replaced the bush, the old one was in desperate need of renewal and reassembled everything except the interior. Sunday morning I replaced all the interior bits, it always take so long to get those bits back in properly and went for a test drive. Well, as you might have guessed from the opening sentence of this post, no change !!!!!  I have consoled myself with David's statement, it was A problem, albeit not THE problem.

Having looked back through the suggestions in this thread I decided to check the push rods. Off with the rocker covers and rocker shafts, thank you Don for the tip to put an elastic band round the shafts before withdrawing them to stop the rockers etc sliding off the shaft !! Out with the push rods, not tubular ali as suggested by Christo but steel !!! All seem in good order although one is very slightly bent some 40mm from the top. Not readily visible to the naked eye but discernible when the rod is rolled along a plane surface.

I now need to consider the next move, I do not believe the push rods or rocker gear are the problem, so I think I will replace all that and do a test run, miracles have happened you know !!! Anticipating failure, I think the next move must be to remove the fan belt and go for a run, that should identify any problem with the dynamo, fan or water pump.

If all that does not identify the fault I will sulk ............. then seek professional help ...... for the car, not me (although the latter has been suggested by several members of the family) !!

 I wonder how long it will be before I am ready to report again ?

                                     Andy

PS  Any more thoughts from anybody ?  We are getting desperate here !!

Not sure this has been mentioned......thought about one of these or similar?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-AUTOMOTIVE-ELECTRONIC-STETHOSCOPE-diagnostic-specialty-tool-tools-car-cars-/370773276306?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item5653cf3692#ht_605wt_932

I remember I had a problem like this in a 1949 Citroen, turned out to be water pump, can't remember the exact part was worn, but packing it with grease temporarily solved it. It was a very definite heavy metallic knock, occurred when engine well warmed up after 30 mins or so


P

Did the propshaft check out ok?  If so excellent news of itself.

You WILL get there with it...

David

Thank you for the thought Frank. The problem is that the noise only appears when under way and under load. Whilst I think four of my grandchildren are actually small enough to get into the engine bay with the bonnet closed, I have yet to get parental consent. Some people are so picky !!!!

I will keep seeking !!

                          Andy

There is a more advanced system, which gets you away from the putting your children up a chimney scenario, were using a series of probes ( 4/6/8) you can listen whilst driving to the various noises the engine etc makes and allows you to pin point exactly where its coming from......ask at local decent indie garage if they will hook up for you


P

One of these bits of kit....

http://www.denlorstools.com/home/dt1/page_28342_103/j_s_products_steelman_06600_stethescope_electronic.html


P

Same item on ebay...am sure there are UK suppliers

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Steelman-Electronic-6-Channel-Chassis-Ear-Listening-Kit-New-/321101400652?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ac3228a4c


P

This all reminds me of an experience that I feel I need to own up to. A couple of years ago my faithful Fiat Punto developed a vibration at about 60 mph when fairly heavily loaded. I thought it might be a wheel out of balance and I looked for a missing balance weight, but couldn’t find anything wrong. I checked the tyres for any lumps or stones stuck in the tread, but nothing.  The vibration went away and then came back with a vengeance when driving in France with the whole front of the car shaking. I investigated and found the rubber sections in one wheel arch had become loose and were flapping about. I bought some cable ties and strapped it all tight and all seemed well. Then it happened again so I secured them better with nuts and bolts. Then it came back and I started to suspect a wheel bearing or something in the transmission. I took a rear wheel off and spotted some cracks in the tread. The tyres were Michelins with lots of deep tread, but they had covered about 50,000 miles. It seems the carcass of the tyre had stated to come apart and this only showed up under load causing all sorts of vibrations. New rear tyres fitted and all was well.

Might your problem be something just as silly?

Colin

Colin, thank you for the thought. It is of course quite possible, indeed quite probable, that it will prove to be something simple and, in hindsight obvious.

I must just be persistent and hope to be lucky sooner rather than later!!!

                       Andy

It's me again !!!

Push rods replaced, rocker shafts bolted in and tappets checked after two screwed adjusters replaced as the hardened bearing surface was damaged. Finally, rocker covers on. Test drive, lots of muttering, it will now do it in second at 15mph and continue through the gears, Always only present under load. However, park on the driveway at home, slight uphill gradient and handbrake on, select first, lots of revs and up with the clutch. Result, move forward slightly with the engine heavily loaded but NO horrible noises.

Time to remove the fanbelt and test. Anticipating no change, I think it then will be time to have the front wheels off and inspect 'everything'. I really do not know what I will be looking for, simply anything that doesn't look right !!

As it is persisting with rain at present I will delay this for a while !!! A report in due course.

                                                            Andy

Hello Andy, silly question, do you think it could be in the gearbox? Worn thrusts? Just a thought. It was when you said that when you had the handbrake on under load no noise, that to me would point to transmission, not dynamo or water pump. anyway good luck

Well Roger, funny you should say that !!  Yesterday Tim Heath (lancialulu) had a drive out from Colchester down to Westcliff to see if he could help identify the problem. While I drove around, especially up the hills leading away from the sea, Tim adopted a head down, butt up pose with his head against the transmission tunnel. It seems that the gearbox is indeed the most likely source of the noise so it is time to bite the bullet  and remove the gearbox. I will obviously check the clutch and most probably replace the friction plate while it is accessible.

So, let's see what happens next. The question is, how soon I will be able to get at it. I have to prepare for and attend a trade fair at the Business Design Centre in Islington from the 13th to the 15th and a trip to Wales is long overdue so there may be a delay, I will keep it as short as possible.

Incidentally, the fanbelt off check revealed that the dynamo fan and water pump are not at fault.

I'll keep in touch !!


                        Andy

And so the story continues .............

I got the trade fair out of the way and went to Wales, mowed the lawns on the first two days of sun,  then sulked for two days of rain and then returned to an equally wet Westcliff. Fortunately, before I went to Wales, I had time to remove the propshaft and remove the doughnut couplings. The front one, which I had checked fully when replacing the gearbox mounting was fine, just a few surface cracks. However the rear one, which had only been checked in placed by pushing and pulling and levering, was dire and that is an understatement. Cracks were found adjacent to three alternate bolt bushings, I am not sure whether they were the diff. spider bushes or the prop. spider bushes. One crack was about 80% thro', another about 60% thro', whilst the third was a mere 40% thro' !!!!

Now the quandary, continue to remove the gearbox and clutch assembly, install the replacement gearbox and then check. Or replace the doughnuts and test. If I did the former and all was ok then I would not know if the fault had been in the doughnuts or the gearbox. If I chose the latter and the test showed the doughnuts not to be THE problem, then I would have gone through the rigmarole of replacing the propshaft, dropping the car, testing and then have to jack up the car again and drop the propshaft again.

I chose the latter. Time to fit the new doughnuts, simple !!  Oh yeah !!  The new bushes were 8mm thicker than the old meaning the length of the drive shaft assembly would be increased by 16mm. This became apparent as the bolts were some 8mm too short and the the castellated nuts did not go on far enough to permit fitting the split pins. At 6pm on a Friday this is a bit of a blow, the local bolt store was closed until 8am Monday so just another frustration. Don explained the cause, the thinner doughnuts were used on Series one cars, the Series two and three cars had a longer wheelbase and to accommodate this Lancia used the simple expedient of thicker doughnuts ! Monday morning saw the bolts purchased, but having my 2yr old grandson to stay took out the day and early evening. It was turned 7pm before I got into the garage to try to fit the new boots for the bushes at each end of the the propshaft. That was a battle, but I won eventually and by 10.15pm all was assembled. Just time to drop the car ready for a test drive in the morning.

The test drive .............. A total disaster sums it up quite well. At the first sniff of an uphill incline there it was, the now ever-present tapping.

I must admit I was not surprised. To me, ALL propshaft faults reveal themselves initially with vibration and I had had none of that. So, Jim is making up a cradle for the gearbox to fit onto the trolley jack to assist in dropping the gearbox.

To be continued .....


                          Andy

...but you now know the prop joints are all good...and how to get it all apart and back again...

How pleased will you be to get to the end of this one?

David

Andy

If its nit too late and to save jim some time and your pocket, machine mart sell a gearbox cradle that fit  a 3 ton (1 inch mounting) trolley jack for not a lot of money. i have one and it is well made if you grease the screw thread pitch adjuster.

Tim

Hi Andy,

I truly do feel for you having suffered a similar problem with the Dilambda a couple of years ago. What I will say is that the relief and pleasure you experience when you finally solve the problem is immense and so satisfying. Keep at it.

Robin.

So, I made a poor decision on 5th June last year, it was not the doughnuts, even though they were knackered.

By the 7th I had the car up on blocks and stands, the prop off and engine bay ready to remove the gearbox. However, it was not until the 24th I removed the gearbox only to find that the exchange box was from a LHD car. A quick call to Don for advice ... it is simple, swap the selector mechanism and the clutch lever for that on my gearbox, but do not lose the springs in the selectors (I didn't). Now it was time to install the replacement gearbox. Next day we set to, a lot of huffing and puffing followed by quite a few expletives when we discovered the loaned series 1 box does not fit a series 2 car. The latter has 2 additional securing studs which of course prevent a series 1 unit sliding into place. So, the loan 'box was dragged out and the gear selector mechanism and clutch lever were swapped back and my 'box readied to go to a transmission specialist for checking. In due course the 'box was checked and on 25th July, having been pronounced as fit for purpose the 'box was collected from the transmission specialist and a new friction plate ordered from Don which came 2 days later, what a service!!

Jim said he would be up to help and Tim (lancialulu) also offered his assistance. However, I had a couple of health scares and Lynn's treatment became significantly more onerous, so unfortunately that is how things remained until two days ago. I suddenly got fired up and decided to, very carefully, have a go at doing the job on my own. On Friday I recovered all the bits from different parts of the garage, installed the clutch in the bellhousing and located the support cradle for the box. Saturday was crunch day, the 'box was installed in the cradle on the trolley jack and, after 3 abortive attempts I managed to get it under the car. If only I had blocked it up another 20mm!!! There was only one way it could be slid in, pushing a trolley jack, loaded with a gearbox sideways when lying down is not easy!! Raising the was of course easy, as was applying the correct tilt thanks to Jim's cradle. However, it hit the transmission tunnel before it was high enough to be moved forward onto the studs. When Jim and I hit this problem with the loan box, I resorted to levering the top of the engine, at the front, backwards, thus lowering the rear  of the engine whilst Jim manoeuvred the box towards the studs. This time on my own I had to think again, then I suddenly recalled Chugga's 'how to remove an Appia gearbox' list which I had looked through rather than read. However, jack under the front of the engine had registered, just. I re-read the post and all was clear. Another jack, on a slight ramp to try to get a lift perpendicular to the bottom of the sump, with a timber spacer to protect the sump and lo and behold, down went the back of the engine exactly as required. I could not believe it when, after a little twisting and tugging and pushing the 'box suddenly slid forward onto the studs. I really could not believe it. I quickly bolted it up before it could slip off again!!! I then jacked up the rear of the box and fitted the gearbox rear support bolt.

That is how it is now, sitting ignored in the garage while I am on holiday in a beautiful villa some 30 mls north of Perugia.

To be continued ....

                          Andy

...always believe Andy.........

Enjoy your holiday........


P

Power of the forum eh?  ....and of determination and resolve and patience and planning and being organised enough not to loose the bits and orderly enough to have the tools to hand and keeping your temper with it.

It was certainly the weather to be lying under a car this weekend (I couldn't resist on Sunday - fuel tank and pump out of the Strada) and fingers crossed all is well and if not you know you've got a good box and clutch in the same way you know you've got good engine mounts and as you work through the car chasing "the fault" what you leave behind is better and stronger and will give peace of mind when you drive me down to Italy in it (stopping at Simon's on the way) to pick up one of the mythical Flavia Jolly vans at 2000 euro (see Viva Lancia).

Enjoy your break!!

David

David, power of the forum indeed!! I definitely would not have got the gearbox back in without the forum and Chugga's contribution. Long may it continue.

                                         Andy

Certainly hope that you have cured the problem ! Looking forward to hearing the news ....

A little while yet until I can find out if I have sorted the problem I regret Simon ....

I had a fantastic holiday, spoilt rotten by ex pats who are living the dream, but working bloody hard at it. The lady of the house was a brilliant cook (runs Italian cookery courses) whilst her husband had planted a vineyard and an olive grove and made his own wine and olive oil. I am not a fan of the latter, but the former was superb and sampled, in quantity, every evening.

Anyway I digress ..... it was back to reality late on Sunday evening after a two and a half hour delay at Perugia airport due to bad weather!!!! Monday was recovery day and catch up with the family. Tuesday was rolling around on the garage floor day!!! First it was necessary to bolt the clutch assembly to the flywheel. The two seemed locked together and I could not turn one relative to the other to get the bolt holes to line up. So, I released the bellhousing nuts, but the unit was still tight on the gearbox mounting bolt and would not move. I removed the mounting bolt, but wanted to secure the tail of the gearbox by threading a rope through the silentblock and tying it to the transmission tunnel. To assist in this I removed the rubber bushed supports each side, a bad move as they are a beast to replace as a one man job. Anyway, releasing the gearbox allowed the clutch to move relative to the flywheel and I got the 8 bolts in and tightened up. Then it just remained to tighten the bellhousing nuts, get that expletive deleted rear mounting back in and I was back to where I was before I went on holiday!!!   The top hose went on and I called it a day.

Today it was fit the gearchange linkage, tricky, but manageable, refit the clutch linkage, easy and refit the exhaust. The latter should not be that difficult. However, my (stainless) exhaust has a bush which locates between the pipe and the manifold and a copper and 'asbestos' circular gasket. Plenty of gun gum type goo and bolt it up, very poor access and difficult to get to the nuts, but managed it. Then today's cock-up came to light. In all the faffing around to get the down pipe flange located on the manifold studs, the gasket had fallen off and, being covered in goo it just dropped a few inches and then stuck itself to the bellhousing. I only realised this as I was extricating myself from under the car thinking I had successfully secured the down pipe when the bally thing unglued itself and dropped onto the floor under my nose!!!! Needless to say the air was blue!!!!!! I unbolted the downpipe, applied more goo to the bush and the gasket and bolted it back up, at least it only took two attempts, not the usual three!!!!!

So, that is where we are at the moment ....... only the plugs, air cleaner and other little bits to go back, then new oil in the gearbox and fill the cooling system and we might even be ready to give it a go ........

Any recommendations for type of oil for the gearbox, I am tending towards SAE30?

                                                        Andy

"thinking I had successfully secured the down pipe when the bally thing unglued itself and dropped onto the floor under my nose".

You couldn't script it.

I guess you could now become an authorised Appia exhaust and clutch fitter.

David

Thanks for the warning - I have 2 of these coming up ! Do you think that you could fit the exhaust downpipe before refitting the engine/box assembly ?

Re oil, not sure but what does it say in the handbook ?

Fingers crossed that the rest goes smoothly 

Handbook recommends EP 90 - Mobilube GX 90 or ESSO XP Compound EP 90 to be exact !

Simon, re the downpipe, mine is a non standard exhaust and the downpipe is long, it extends to nominally the rear footwell, so would be difficult to manoeuvre into place unless you have the car on a lift. It was not that difficult to fit with the engine in place, small hands help (I took off the gloves I normally wear), it was having to do it twice ......

Re oil, the handbook recommends 'Mobilube GX90' or 'Esso XP Compound EP90'. However, there is thread elsewhere on the Forum which discusses lubricants and that is suggesting a lighter oil seems to give easier gear changes, absorb less power and has no downside!!  Also, I checked on the 'Morris of Shrewsbury' website.They consider their Golden Film SAE30 is 'suitable for use in naturally aspirated four stroke petrol and diesel engines and classic gearbox designs'. The latter is not very specific, but, when considered with the Forum thread seems to give weight to the argument for the use of SAE30.

Does anyone else have experience or thoughts on this?

                                     Andy

Re oil I thought that was for an Augusta or Aprilia but then my memory is playing tricks on me from time to time. like forgetting to bring the Delta twin cam timing to France to change the belt on our 1600. bought everything else..

"It was not that difficult to fit with the engine in place, small hands help"


If ever there was a half time activity for the grandchildren surely an Appia exhaust fitting was it...

Unfortunately I do not fall into the small hands category, perhaps Juliet can do it - it's her car after all ........

(I'll get a kicking for that one !)

I count myself lucky when retribution is merely a kicking.

Lynn is on crutches at the moment so even I can outrun her, but I do have to remember the extended reach that they give her ....

                                    Andy

Getting back to the question of oil for the gearbox ..... I e mailed Morris Lubricants and asked for their advice. I added that Esso XP Compound EP 90 was a recommended oil, but I was considering an SAE30. Hopefully their response is shown below. So, should I go with their suggestion (90 grade but non EP) or go for an EP 90, which they also do? I am inclined towards the latter.

                                   Andy



FW: Lancia Appia (1956) Gearbox Oil
Inbox
x

Technical Info <info@morris-lubricants.co.uk>
11:03 (4 hours ago)

to me
Good morning

Thank you for your recent enquiry.

The oil we would recommend is our GoldenFilm AG 90 Classic Gear oil. I have attached the technical data sheet for further information.

An SAE 90 gear viscosity grade would equate to and SAE 50, so and SAE 30 would not be suitable.

Many Thanks

Regards

Phil Saunders BSc (Hons)
 
Quality Assurance Manager
psaunders@morris-lubricants.co.uk
www.morrislubricants.co.uk


VAT Reg No.GB 838 4203 27
Registered in England & Wales No.4930959
Registered Office:
38-41 Castle Foregate
Shrewsbury
Shropshire
SY1 2EL

Hi Andy

No experience with your car, but there has been some comments for a while now about not using EP oil in Beta gearboxes on the Beta forum due to the additives attacking some of the metals in the box. No idea on the science involved, but maybe why the recommended was not an EP one?

Peter

apparently there is some acids in EP oils that attacks brass and bronze, however I've used ep80/90 in the appias and augustas  for around 10 years and my dad in the astura for 30 years with no ill affect , I maybe wrong but its probably a theory that's blown out of all proportion like the one about cars becoming addicted to easy start

Thank you James, EP90 it is then !!!!

So, the small matter of the propshaft .... that should not take long I thought. I do not know quite what I did wrong, but there must be an easier way than the way I did it. I did the diff. end first, easy, most encouraging. However, at the gearbox end it was not so easy. I think in hindsight the trick is to align everything before offering it up as it is difficult to spin the propshaft relative to the gearbox spider once it is up in place. Anyway, it took more time and distinctly more effort than I was expecting!! I will do the gearbox end first, if (when?) there is a next time as there is more scope to push things around at the diff. end where there is no handbrake operating lever to complicate things.

So after that it was plugs, distributor cap, w.screen washer bottle and carrier, top up the radiator and drag out the battery to get that on charge. Only the air filter housing to go back and oil in the gearbox, then get it off the stands and blocks and keep my fingers crossed. I do not know if the clutch will need adjustment with its new plate, there seems to be plenty of free play on the pedal, time will tell!!!!

                                       Andy

Reasons to be cheerful - its easier than taking Modestine to bits and back again etc etc chasing a knock.

Fingers crossed!!!

David

Oil in the gearbox, air filter on and battery back in!!! Dropped it off the blocks and stands, it does look small when its not a foot up in the air.

However, it will not start!!!! Mind you I am not surprised having been stuck in the garage for a year. I only had 10mins to play with it, so I will have another go soon. It does have a spark so it may be as simple as stale fuel ....

Jim is here tomorrow so it will be an Aurelia day, fit doors, bonnet and bootlid, well maybe a door or two!!!!

                                                         Andy

Fingers crossed Andy ;D


Brian
8227 8)

So, dump a gallon of stale petrol into the Meriva and buy a gallon of the fresh stuff. Get that into the Appia and give it a whirl ..... wahoo, it started, a little lumpy to begin with, but it soon smoothed out. Check the tyres and off we go, just up and down the road to begin with, sometimes living in a cul de sac is an advantage!! All seemed ok, well, ok enough and so off up the local hill and ............. the knocking is still there!!!! I must admit I am not surprised, after all, I found no fault, but I am disappointed!!!  Anyway, I decided to disconnect the speedo cable just to eliminate that ... and here comes today's hot tip ..... do NOT cable tie the disconnected speedo cable to the clutch return spring. The cable moves and gets trapped between the floorpan and the pedal cross shaft damaging the cable. Such is life!!!!

Back into the garage and give up for today. I think try it on a ramp and see if I can provoke the fault, if not then run it until I kill it seems the only option left.

To be updated.

                         Andy

Shame that Andy, you've tried an awful lot of theories etc to sort this....but please don't kill the little Appia!!!

P

On the up side, it's not the 'box !

Simon, there is always an up side, it is just that sometimes it is a little difficult to find!!!!!

                        Andy

Reasons to be cheerful: As it wasn't the box that makes the one that came out "a good spare".

David

Just to make you feel a bit less cheerful I suspect you have a broken crankshaft.

Could it be a cracked propshaft with the crack only opening up under load (as my B20 propshaft did at Silverstone a couple of weeks ago)?
Chris

The great pity with this car is that it was the "bird in the hand" to have on the road having waited patient decades to get on with the two "birds in the bush.  I really feel for you.

Have you tried a brutally bad hill start (cook up that clutch...) on a really steep hill?  If the hill isn't steep enough try and pull your Transit up the steepest hill you can find.  That might eliminate anything that moves as the car moves (prop, axle) from something like the crankshaft.

A rolling road and a video camera is one idea for chassis and under bonnet on the move - or even rig up a camera you don't mind risking and take it on a road test.  I'm remembering John Turner's sliding pillar footage.

Is there a way to count rear axle teeth or to load the CWP up static or "slowly"?

David

Wouldn't a broken crank cause low oil pressure, especially when hot ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00bduCs07aA

Another idea is to line some spectators up and see (hear...) if its more obvious from outside the car as to what end and what it might be.

David

I know its easy to reproduce on a hill, and four up all the easier so it is load related.  Do I remember right that at some speed on the flat it starts to knock?   Eg on the motorway on the way to an AGM.

Up a hill it wasn't in top...

Try the same hill in - say - second at higher revs and third at lower?

Something else to try is to record it (so as to be able to analyse in the calm and repeatedly) and so tell if it relates to the road speed or the engine speed.

A little camera might tell us more from its sound track - is there more noise from a camera under the fuel tank or hung under the gearbox or under the front axle?

David

Two things have been noted today ..... the first is that it is now possible to get the noise when stationary in neutral, but only after provoking it by thrashing it up a hill and then only for a short time. Thus it would seem not to be in the transmission after all !!!!!  However, frustratingly by the time I get out and my head under the bonnet it will not perform. Putting it in gear and driving against the handbrake will sometimes get a result but sometimes not!!!  I am beginning to think it is being difficult just to spite me!!

The other thing is that the pressed steel shroud on the tail of the gearbox is loose and 'rings' when under way. However, there does not seem to be any way to tighten it. Indeed, I cannot see how it might have become loose in the first place.

By the way, the speedo cable, once straightened and given a little tlc, miraculously still functions.

Anyway, I will persevere and just drive it until the fault becomes self evident!

                                   Andy 

                               

Book Essex Raceway for a day and drift it round and round until "it becomes apparent".

http://www.arena-essex-raceway.co.uk/drift_practice.aspx

I expect the usual crowd will be well used to tracking down odd knocking noises - even if most are The Old Bill on the driver's window.

Perhaps an exclusive booking for the Appia consortium?  Might be a way for more to achieve that Rat Look.

David

Have you got a friendly local MOT man who could run it on the rollers for you while you have a listen?

Stanley, that is another option, I may well get to that, thank you.

In the meantime I am playing with the B20, time to get into some serious thinking about rewiring it!!

                          Andy

Just a couple of photographs showing the gearbox installation.These are after the event. As usual I was so intent on getting the job done that I did not even take one showing the 'box in the cradle on the jack. I will try to do better next time!!

Jim made the cradle. Simply two short sections of channel interlinked and hinged with a bolt. Tilt adjustment is achieved using the vertical bolt . The gearbox sits in the two curved pieces of strip steel welded to the upper channel. The hook projecting from the  upper channel locates into the rectangular opening in the bottom of the bellhousing and the rear of the 'box is simply strapped down. The dowel welded to the lower channel locates in the trolley jack, having removed the cup.

The other photograph shows the car on the blocks and stands, as I said, a little higher would have made a big difference. The piece of ply on a timber batten in the foreground  was the ramp for the jack used under the front of the engine to get the back low enough for the 'box to slide onto the studs.

So, all fairly makeshift but it did the trick. I just wish I did not find it so difficult getting out from under the car and then getting up on my feet again!!! I wonder if its possible to get grease nipples fitted on the NHS, I only want five, that's knees, hips and one in my back !!!!

                                 Andy

PS  By the way, that is the Gussie languishing in the background, one day .......

Ingenious - patent it !

Excellent, very much in the sprit of Heath Robinson ;D

Brian
8227 8)

Two new clues (if I understood correctly at the AGM):

- Has had the noise when stationary.
- On the move touch the clutch and it stops.

The first is not easy to reproduce.  With the second it should be possible to go up a "knocking hill" or get up to "knocking speed" and experiment being careful to keep the throttle down, on the right hill potentially keep the throttle on the floor.

My first thought is crank end float.  Is there a way to check that looking at the front pulley move as the clutch goes in and out?  Is it possible to drop the sump and get a lever in to pry the crank it back and forth?  Is there a "they always go there guv" likely cause?

Would there be something to look for if it was on a rolling road? 

David

Just to let you know that despite other things going on, this lovely little car has not been forgotten. After the winter's sojourn in the garage it started with little hesitation and has been out several times to get everything up and running again. Needless to say the noise is still there and has slowly worsened with continued use. I am hoping that soon it will be such that I can make a positive identification of the problem before something actually breaks.

With the Y10 causing unforeseen problems, the hunt for B20 engine parts and with the Gussie on the rotisserie having the sills restored it is unlikely that things will move quickly with the Appia, but it is most definitely not forgotten.

                         Andy

Today there was an opportunity to take the Appia out for a few miles and to listen yet again to the noise. Interestingly, the pitch of the noise has changed, it is now higher. Now it might almost be described as a clacking/clicking noise rather than a tapping /knocking noise!!! Also, it seemed rather more reluctant to appear!!! I just do not know what is going on.

I had convinced myself that there was real merit in the suggestion that the crank thrust washers might have failed allowing the crank to move fore and aft. However, no matter where /how I levered the crank pulley I could not detect any movement. I also checked with the clutch pedal jammed down as I thought the pressure of that on the flywheel might mask any movement, all to no avail.

I am presently scratching my head ......

                                            Andy

The best way to check is with the engine running get someone to push the clutch pedal up and down, if there is movement you'll soon see it, and if I remember correctly it will also slow the engine ::)

Brian
8227 8)

I still think it is a faulty clutch which from memory did not get changed in the whole gearbox change over point.....

A clutch problem would fit with the noise 'changing'.

You are right Tim, I did not change the clutch although I did fit a new friction plate. If it is the clutch I would nopt be unhappy, I know how to do that now!!!! I will keep using it and see if I can provoke it a little more.

Thank you Brian for the thought on the thrust washers. I will try that and report back.

                                                        Andy

Just reporting back ........ there is no discernible movement in the crank pulley relative to the sump casting when the clutch pedal is depressed and also there is no change in engine speed. So it is looking less likely that the crankshaft thrust washers are the culprit.

This was checked this afternoon with the help of a grandson ... I had faith that they would come in useful eventually!! We then went for a drive with said grandson holding the mobile phone to video our progress and the accompanying noise. I will get the help desk to upload the video to something where you, the cognoscenti, will instantly diagnose the problem ..... I hope. I will let you know where and when the video is available to view.

In the meantime I am contemplating rebuilding B20 driveshaft UJs and pot joints!!

                                                                            Andy

The pot joint rebuild should be a nice clean "bench" job ....

Good , continued, hunting with the noise

Andy,
sorry my Penn'orth didn't help but at least it's another checked.
I shall wait with my stethoscope plugged into my ears!

Brian
8227 8)

With the help of the second generation helpdesk video clips have been uploaded to instagram. Find them at #Appianoise or on my account @thecern.

Please listen, diagnose and advise!! Somehow I have a feeling that it will not be that simple, but any suggestions would be very gratefully received.

                                              Andy

Frankly dear people, I am disappointed!! Not a whisper, not a murmur!! Is no-one prepared to put their head above the parapet and offer a suggestion as to what the bloody hell this 'orrible noise might be?

Come on .......... please, what is going on in that engine?

                                             Andy

Its the clutch having heard it first hand (dont do instagram....)

Thankfully Andy I'm not an expert so I can say what I like and expect to be corrected!

Its not an engine noise for sure, sounds almost like dried out/aged leather rotating against something in the drivetrain, did they use leather much in the Appias construction?!... 8)...seriously the noise reminds me of the old style wooden "rattles" used by footie fans.....the driveshaft rubber coupling failed/disintegrated, if they used them in the Appia?!

Hoping the guys with the real knowledge pass by!


P

Frank, you have described the noise accurately. When it first started it was more like an exhaust pipe banging against the body!!

Anyway, it does seem to be in the engine or gearbox/clutch assembly as it can be provoked when stationary.

                         Andy

Sorry Andy,
I don't do Instagram either,

Do you by any chance have a heater? if so perhaps the fan?
As you say it can be provoked when stationary I assume that is with the engine running and by operating the clutch, is the engine moving on it's mountings and catching against something?
Is it possibly the fan assembly itself catching?
I'm also clutching at straws!

Brian
8227 8)

If you don't do the instagram thing, how can you get to hear it - via the facebook thing ?

Thank you for the thoughts Brian. These matters have, I think, been dealt with. There is no heater. New engine mounts made no difference, although they all three were shot, so together with a visual check I have ruled out movement of the engine. Don had suggested the fan catching, but there seems to be plenty of clearance there and no signs of damage etc on the tips of the blades.

This has been the frustrating thing, that as it initially only occurred when under way, it was not possible to get a head under the bonnet to investigate. As it has got worse I may now stand a chance, but it is not bad enough yet!! I am just hoping I can identify the problem before something breaks and it gets expensive!!

Time, as always, will tell!!

                            Andy

Andy,
What sort of speed to you have to be doing to hear the noise?
No doubt health and safety would have a fit, but in my youth I sat on many a front wing holding on at low speed listening for noises!
Is it possible to put it up on Axle stands and sturdy wooden blocks and run it in gear with the back wheels off the ground, with the front wheels  securely chocked? even better if you could get access to a four poster lift with the front to back rails which can support the car with the wheels off the ground and try running it in gear.

Brian
8227 8)

...then running it in gear against the handbrake.

The other place to test is on a rolling road.

I haven't reviewed the whole thread so forgive me if this has already been covered. If it is clutch related might a broken clutch spring be the culprit? (assumes it has clutch springs)

Hi Andy, is the car in North Wales? if so let me know a date when you would be there, and I would drive up and listen to the car first hand, also cannot quite remember where in Wales it is, I am near Aberystwyth Roger

Frank, the clutch spring in the Appia is a single coil spring. I stripped the clutch quite early on in  the investigation into this problem and found no issue with it. I replaced the friction plate and put everything back together with no apparent change to the problem.

Roger, the car is in Essex so many thanks for your kind offer, but I will not be able to take you up on it.

I hope to get another crack at the investigation n the next couple of weeks, torrential rain has not been conducive to  driving out in it today. Hopefully things will improve!!

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and comments, please keep them coming.

                                           Andy

Took the Appia out for a run on Thursday .... unbelievably the noise has not gone away!!!!! Its still b*****y there, laughing at me!!!!!!

Seriously, I have not moved on with this and will just take it out whenever I get the opportunity to see what happens. The trouble is that I dare not use it for 'serious' journeys as sods law dictates that it will break down at the most inopportune moment!!!

                                                         Andy

I may have moved forward, possibly, one little step!!! Yesterday I went in the Appia to see a precision machinist who will do some work for me on some Gussie parts. He suggested that I take the car to see a local vintage/classic car restorer called Keith Pointing. This gentleman campaigns a vintage Riley and specialise in the restoration of the marque. He used to work on Lancias and has had some experience with Appias, albeit some years ago. He believes that I may have a big end problem ... so it will be sump off at some time, but goodness knows when!!!!!

                                                  Andy

Andy

Do you know what? I was going to post exactly the same having heard your (rather poor) Instagram videos. So I did not show to my MOT man as I still feel the noise and it was very strong on the bell housing so my money is still on the pressure plate. A big end should rattle while in the drive if you give it some throttle. I always believed you could not get this noise at standstill??

Tim

It will be interesting to see if the last person who put the Appia engine together knew about the strange way that the con rods go in!
Regards, John

Norman Warner who was a very good engineer in South Africa rebuilt that cars engine if it is a big-end then I will be surprised unless the engine run low on oil.
Appia's do break cranks and it will still run as it normally very clean break.

Christo

Andy, have you got any further with this problem?

I ask because my Series 1 seems to have developed a very similar 'knock'  :'(

Frank's description of your noise exactly matches my noise:


The only (!) problem is my noise occurs under rather different circumstances: It initially occurred when I declutched coming to a standstill. Over a fifty mile journey it developed so that it was occurring every time I declutched, and by the time I got home it was also doing it on right-hand corners without touching the clutch. I cannot reproduce the noise whilst the car is stationary and an, admittedly quick, inspection underneath the car has not revealed anything loose, broken or dropping off ...

Ideas, anyone?

How about crankshaft end float? I had this once on a Vauxhall where the thrust washers either side of the crank had worn, allowing the crankshaft to move forward, if you dipped the clutch with the engine running while stationary an observer could see the crankshaft pulley moving forward as the clutch was operated.
Probably not your problem, but worth a look.

Brian
8227 8)

I had a similar problem with my Augusta, but when I operated the clutch, the crankshaft moved (ever so slightly) towards the rear! this enabled a screw in the front pulley (which held a balance weight) to touch the crankcase, making the tapping noise. A screw with a shallower head cured the problem.
Regards, John

It's certainly worth investigating, as also are the engine mounts, but since I can only make the noise when the car is moving, and the rattle seems to be related to car speed rather than engine speed, I think I need to be looking further back in the drive train.

What about the rear gearbox mounts - the silent block on the top of the box can get very soft and break up

The tunnel mounted ones are a bit more robust

Mike, I have every sympathy for you and hope that you can get at your problem significantly quicker tha I have managed!!

Coincidentally I have got back to the issue recently, on Monday actually!! I have bought a multi channel electronic stethoscope and with help from Harry, my oldest grandson, carried out some more investigations. The results unfortunately were not absolutely clearcut, but the lead on the tail of the gearbox and that on the adjacent speedo take-off seemed to be the loudest/clearest indicating a problem there. I have decided to get a 'box from the Consortium and simply do a straight swap. I will keep posting!
Leads were positioned as follows :-

Black ...... exhaust pipe
Yellow ..... gearbox tail
Green ..... engine front right
White ..... clutch
Red ........ speedo
Black ...... engine rear left

                          Andy

Andy

Are you leaving the clutch alone when you swop the gearbox (hope answer is yes!)!

Tim

The clutch comes out with the gearbox. I will not be doing more than swapping it over. I put a new friction plate on it when I had the gearbox out last time when looking for this noise!!! The whole job is 'tricky' rather than difficult. The work is made easier with the use of Jim's gearbox support thingy that goes on the trolley jack. See my earlier post for a photograph. I am not sure when I will get round to doing it ..... best time would be when the Gussie and B20 are away for their paint jobs, but the list of things to be done in that window is huge already!!!!!

First things first, get a gearbox!!!

                                     Andy

There are plenty at the Appia Consortium in Hartlepool !

So 6 months ago I was saying that I would swap the gearbox ..... as you might have guessed that swap has not yet been done!!! However, I have now moved the car to the workshop .... see "An Augusta Story" for the details. On the drive to the workshop it became apparent that the noise was present even with the clutch dipped and therefore I became dubious about the fault being in the gearbox itself. Then I had a eureka moment, the noise would accord with there being something catching the starter ring .... perhaps the starter!!!! So, off with the starter, not the easiest job, but I did manage it. However, the starter motor pinion was in excellent condition without even a hint that something might be catching on the starter ring .... That was disappointing ... if that had been the problem then it would be an easy fix!!! However an inspection of the starter ring did show fresh damage to the leading edge of the starter ring and that needs investigation!!!! So it seems that the gearbox will have to come out and the flywheel removed to investigate what might be causing the damage and most probably the noise.

The photographs show the starter ring damage. The quality is very poor as access is extremely difficult.

Does anyone have any idea about what might be causing this problem? And, possibly more importantly, does anyone have a spare starter motor that I might borrow to see if, despite the lack of apparent damage, the fault does lie with the starter??

                                Andy

Have you tried using the starting handle to start the car with the starter motor removed to see if it still makes the noise ? that would rule out the starter ,just a thought

The Appia has no starting handle!!! I cannot get over this ..... but there it is!!! It did occur to me to bump start it without the starter motor in and see if there was still the problem, but I am now in the mindset that it's time the gearbox came out again!!!!

Thank you for the thought ....

                                 Andy

I would have thought that a bit of wear on the teeth around the area where the starter motor throws in is quite normal and nothing to worry about. Look at any Augusta flywheel! If the flywheel is fitted correctly, those marks can only be made by the starter motor, so I don't think that can be the cause of the knocking.
To get sharper photos, try getting a smaller image in the camera by moving further away - and blowing it up later - at the "editing" stage.
Good luck! Regards, John

Andy

As you know I felt the noise emanated from the bell housing area so can you get an endoscope or small mirror into the starter motor aperture or the oil drain/vent at the bottom of the housing or through the clutch release arm aperture to try to see other witness marks. I would have thought any thing hitting on the flywheel teeth would have made more of a rasping noise (higher frequency) withh all those teeth! And left quite metal debris withing the teeth.

Tim

As Jim has alluded, I am now quietly confident that I have found the source of this infernal noise. Now is not the time to go into detail, but suffice it to say that I have most definitely found A problem ....... I just hope that this time it is THE problem!! Mind you, I have been at this point before only to have my hopes dashed, so I am not holding my breath!!!!

All the necessary parts have been ordered and should arrive in about a week, then it's simply a matter of putting everything back together again!!

A further progress report is promised, hopefully in about 2 weeks time!!!!

                                            Andy

Can't wait, hope you've found the problem !

3 weeks is up now. How about giving us a clue? It still keeps me awake at night and I've got problems of my own to worry me!
Regards, John

I think Andy wants to keep the scoop for his article in the Appia Consortium Newsletter.... ;)

I hope so....
Clarkey

So have you had a flood of membership applications for the Appia consortium from past present and future(?) Appia owners?

+1

The wait is excruciating Andy, I've had to put Xmas preparations on hold...... ;D


Beanz and spill in same sentence, but just not it that order!!!!!


P

I wish I had something positive to report but there has not been a lot of action in the workshop for two weeks!!!!!

I indulged in a few days in N Wales and it has been frantic since I returned on Monday. However, I have made a special tool that is necessary for my endeavours and hope to get some serious time in on the car in this week ..... although Tuesday will be interrupted by the need for me to dress up in a bright red costume and wear a false beard!!!

I also have to admit to a new distraction ...... I think it will be best explained in a new thread!!! And maybe not today, I will need to take a deep breath and gird my loins before I embark on this explanation ..... let alone the actual endeavour!!!

                                                    Andy

I think I may have cracked it.

There is/was an angry elf trapped inside the bell housing (where he had been looking for bells,obviously) and you need the colourful costume to lure him out.

Thank you for your suggestion Ben. That may be A problem ....... but will it prove to be THE problem???

I will d'elve' into it and let you know!!!!

                         Andy

My curiosity is getting completely out of proportion!!! 

This is not being ignored, I am working on it!!! You know the old expression "two steps forward, one back"!!!! Well, I am at the two steps forward, seven steps back!!!!

I will let you know when I have achieved some semblance of success ..... and indeed am in a more reasonable state of mind!!!

                                            Andy

You know so many peoples' thoughts are with you...

I have not been spending that much time in the workshop of late .... the clue is in the photograph!!  It is supposed to warm up slowly through the week, I am hoping that I will notice the difference!!

                             Andy

Its amazing how much a little fan heater can provide local comfort.....but you have to build in the energy costs to the restoration budget!!

Andy, hasn't the concept of thermal underwear reached the Essex coast yet?!  ;D

If it said -13 fair enough.....but.........

P

The problem comes with my feet, after a while the cold gets in and my feet and legs up to the knees are so cold they hurt! I am going to Barts with Lynn in 9 days time and will take the opportunity to visit one of the numerous 'outdoor shops' in the City to buy a pair of boots. Sorel seem to do a good range with suitability down to -40 being fairly standard. I am hoping that will be adequate!!!

I should add that I already wear stout boots with three pairs of socks and use old carpet offcuts to stand on in the areas where I am working.

Anyway, spring will soon be with us and then hopefully I really crack on on all fronts.

                                                 Andy

Please don't crack on all fronts!!!