Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: DavidLaver on 12 June, 2012, 12:40:22 PM



Title: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: DavidLaver on 12 June, 2012, 12:40:22 PM
A week or so ago I went to collect a book from Richard Fridd and came sooooo close to coming home with the Berlina he has for sale as well.  What a delightful machine!!  

Most, and I'll confess some previous guilt here myself, don't get passed the looks.  I think time has done them a lot of favours in that a three box saloon is now a very unusual sight.  It is also a fact that in the metal there's a lot more shape to it than in a photo and the details are lovely.  Alas I didn't take the photo to show it but the wing line has quite a rise and fall. The doors roll in below the glass, the upsweep to those crisp front and rear wing lines is cute, the chrome just right.

Inside its huge.  They're proper five seaters with really decent rear legroom.  Seats are great, everything to a really high quality.  Its a lovely place to sit.  The boot is massive.

Underway the ride is remarkable.  Three leaf springs?  We went in a mid 1980s Mercedes estate and no friends have a more comfortable car than ours but that Fulvia was a wonder.  Not only did it ride well but very little roll and great grip.  Very quiet and refined.

As to this example its just a bit too scruffy for us and I really can't have another car I look at and see a to-do-list. For me it has GOT to be a jump-in-and-use car.  However Richard has done a supreme job at UNDERselling its condition and the work he's done...  Aside from sills and floors he's also done the front footwells / rear mounts of the front subframe and beefed up and cleaned out the subframe.  The suspension bushes we knew about but not the CV boots and rear handbrake and a new exhaust - and he's done the rear springs and the shocks are all fresh.  It starts easily, ticks over at about 400rpm with no clatters or rattles, quite the most refined Fulvia engine I've ever stuck my head into.

So what does it need?

Richard's own plans were to wait for some doors to turn up.  I came straight home and found several on Subito in Italy including a set of four in the same colour (I did say I came close to buying it...)  All the same I'd have a go at reskinning them myself.  Its never going to be a perfect car and those door skins have to be the easiest bit of classic car panel work ever.  The frames need a bit of work but not as bad as expected.  The doors hang well and fit nicely and open and shut perfectly.

He'd considered getting the rear arches done locally but having seen the quality of rear arches on Alan Murphey's car his thought was to see how much a pair of those would cost.  Maybe they're not quite the same on the earlier car but they'd be close.  I'd do the same, but I also wouldn't be ashamed to get it close with what panel beating I could do and make up the difference in filler.

The original paint isn't bad at all.  It was dirty when I saw it and everyone has their own standards but to me good enough.  The new paint on the new-old-stock wings he's fitted is a good match but I'd rub it back again on the wing tops and bring it to a better finish.  As it stands its orange peel and random orbit sander marks.  That would just be time and elbow grease.

The front seats are thought to be ex-Rover and match very well.  All the same I'd chase the front seats in the spares car that supplied the back seats to have it correct.  To me the car deserves that.  Other than a window winder needing a circlip and clean out one rear winder mechanism to get it running smoother nothing else to do.

It's got budget tyres on the back and old ones on the front.  The MOT man was happy but given funds Richard would buy another budget pair to match.  The 155 Michelins XAS is about 150 each but I think there's a decent 145 Bridgestone people put on the S1 Coupes at fifty quid a corner and that would be my instinct.

So there it is - almost a year left on the ticket - tight and on the button - you just need to accept the condition or have the resources to sort.  

Alas just a bit beyond me time-wise at the moment  :(

David

PS - The one at Richard Thorne's has sold...

 


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: fay66 on 12 June, 2012, 04:27:04 PM
I used to sing an old Negro spiritual back in my youth, part of which was "Praise the Lord I saw the light"
and indeed Fulvia Berlina's are a revelation to the uninitiated, and well worth considering.
Add scarcity into the equation and it could well be the Berlinas comeback from the wilderness after taking a back seat to their (Granted) prettier sister the Coupe, although "beauty is said to be in the eye of the beholder".
I reckon that in the UK all told there are probably only about a dozen roadworthy examples of series 1 and 2 combined, and possibly another half a dozen that might make it back on the road, so it's really a case of grab one before they are all gone, at least in RHD form, and in the UK.
you'll certainly pay a lot more on the Continent for a nice LHD example, and even those needing work still command reasonable money.
I've been checking to see if there are any differences between series 1 and series 2 wheelarchs, checking the Tavoli reveals that both series take the same inner wheel arch assembly, you can't check for a part number for the outers as they are part of the complete bodyside pressing, and I already know that the main difference is the gap between the rear window and the boot lid, which is greater on series 2 than series one, as this allowed a bit more leg room in the rear on series 2.
My 2c should be on 155 x 14 x 80 but as I couldn't get these when I put "Fay" back on the road so I fitted 145 x 14 x 80 Firestones, they do tend to squeal it bit when trying hard, which I suspect wouldn't happen on the 155's, but I've had no trouble with the Firestone in 13 years of them being used.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: DavidLaver on 12 June, 2012, 06:25:39 PM

There are some lower profile 155s, typically biased towards long life and low mpg rather than grip. 

The other option is to go up a size and Peter Baker told me he had no wheel arch clearance problems on 165 Mud & Snow on the Monte. We know that would be at full compression, extension, steering lock and lateral-G.  He used standard rims, springs and dampers and had a LOT of fun throwing it about.  All the same I'd go narrower and avoid the body roll. 145s don't sound like much tyre for the weight but I bet it would be as lovely as an S1 Coupe on them. 

Another problem the Berlinas may have had is a negative write up in LaLancia, at least in my (I think) 2nd edition.  Contempory road tests are more positive, when I went to read them surprisingly so.

David


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: fay66 on 12 June, 2012, 11:00:24 PM

There are some lower profile 155s, typically biased towards long life and low mpg rather than grip. 

The other option is to go up a size and Peter Baker told me he had no wheel arch clearance problems on 165 Mud & Snow on the Monte. We know that would be at full compression, extension, steering lock and lateral-G.  He used standard rims, springs and dampers and had a LOT of fun throwing it about.  All the same I'd go narrower and avoid the body roll. 145s don't sound like much tyre for the weight but I bet it would be as lovely as an S1 Coupe on them. 

Another problem the Berlinas may have had is a negative write up in LaLancia, at least in my (I think) 2nd edition.  Contempory road tests are more positive, when I went to read them surprisingly so.

David

David,
I've bought a secondhand good set of 165's to put on "Fay" when the 155's wear out but I was a bit worried that she would then be over tyred on them, I've been after a spare set of steel wheels for some years so I could mount and try them, but so far no luck, but I've never felt that she wasn't happy on 145's.
I'd agree, there were some really positive writeups at the time that were generally full of praise for the Berlina particularly the 2c.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: chriswgawne on 13 June, 2012, 07:46:03 AM
We ran Jacky's 2C on 165 XAS's in the 70's which made it a real Q car when cornering. The rear view mirror and rear screen in the car were large enough to see the expression on the following car driver's faces when they tried to keep up!


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: fay66 on 13 June, 2012, 05:16:04 PM
We ran Jacky's 2C on 165 XAS's in the 70's which made it a real Q car when cornering. The rear view mirror and rear screen in the car were large enough to see the expression on the following car driver's faces when they tried to keep up!
Chris,
I like the sound of that ; :D

brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Parisien on 13 June, 2012, 06:34:31 PM
http://www.autoscout24.it/Details.aspx?id=213735524

Looks interesting for one of the road to Damascus types on this thread.....;)...........


P


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: DavidLaver on 13 June, 2012, 09:14:50 PM

The one I can't take my eyes off is this one:

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4759.0

Wrong side of France, but closer than Italy.  There are a couple of others in France.  Once into Italy you can restrict the seach to just the north and turn up plenty of choice.  Two examples:
 
http://www.subito.it/auto/lancia-altro-modello-torino-42320020.htm
http://www.subito.it/auto/lancia-fulvia-berlina-2-serie-1-3-da-amatore-torino-37821327.htm

Back to Richard's car its right hand drive - how many of those left?  Its a car worthy of work.

Between the versions the S2 has more rear head and leg room, to me a nicer dash, and a bit more frisky with five speeds and the girling brakes.  S1 a bit more pretty, the delicious Fulvia four speed, and potentially a column change.  As for power the S1 GTE the same 87bhp as the S2.  The first single carb models had 58bhp, the 2C (twin carb) 71bhp, GT 79bhp.

Alas I've no time to chase dreams round the continent, even if I did I expect I'd spend it bringing Richard's car up to an acceptable level of cosmetics.

Anyway - when does the letter to Santa have to be in?

David


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: chriswgawne on 14 June, 2012, 08:01:33 AM
When I was in my early 20's (in the early 1970's) and I had my first proper job, the only car for me was going to be something sporty and British with a large 6 cylinder engine and rear wheel drive. I looked at E types, TR's and even a Aston Martin DB4 for 875 finally settling on a 3 year old TR5.
To cut a long story short, whilst I thoroughly enjoyed the car it was not very well made or engineered and cost me so much in repairs to the body (rust) and mechanically (gearbox, back axle, fuel injection) that Jacky moved in with me to help pay for my flat. So a happy ending.
My next car was a Fulvia Coupe Srs3 which was a revelation from a driving point of view. It did everything quicker and with more control and precision than the TR5 (although with 3,000 mile service intervals it was certainly not cheap to run!). Certainly a case of less is more I felt.
And I think the same applies to Fulvia Sedans, particularly the earlier less powerful ones. There is a certain added satisfaction in driving more quickly with less power and like many models of Lancia, the early ones are more tactile and better overall packages than the later versions of the models with larger engines, better brakes etc. I am thinking here particularly of Aurelia's, Flavias, Fulvias and Flaminias.
Our lhd Fulvia 2C had perfectly adequate power I recall (and we towed a 20' boat+trailer with it as well with the only problem being lack of traction coming UP the wet slipway with the boat on the trailer) so I wouldnt obsess about necessarily having to have a GT or GTE.
There are always several good cars for sale in N Italy and having both always had lhd 'daily drivers' in the UK, Jacky and I would both say that lhd is not an issue.


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: DavidLaver on 14 June, 2012, 11:24:47 AM

Sara's open minded to LHD as well so we wouldn't rule one out if it found its way to us :)

RHD still a preference.  Where we live its pulling out to pass a stopped bus which would be fine in LHD 80pct of the time but an occasional pain, if we couldn't see we'd just wait...  We're also no so far off the "learning to drive" stage and I think a Fulvia Berlina would be quite good school mistress, again RHD a mild preference.  Car parks are not the issue they once were with it tending to be "pay and display" rather than a barrier as-was.

As for power its wanting something that will hold its own on the motorway.  The way life is we're either going two miles or 200.  In my fantasy world we'd not worry about another hour or two from a slower cruise or take the back roads and enjoy "the journey" but that's the same world my four project cars inhabit.  Sara has strong memories of her MG Midget with 55bhp and how much less intimidating the world felt with 75bhp.

Christo's Appia has been a torture and it looks like its STILL out there to tempt me:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300714196678

A lovely thing but it would be my indulgance not our second car.  I could sort out belts and a heater but with 43.5bhp its going to be left at home too often.  A Fulvia Sedan gets double that power.  I tried to argue that an Appia will cruise all day close to its maximum (they top out at 80mph) but the advice is that I'd soon break rings and pistons.  The other "case study" I have in mind is Sara taking the kids to her mum, both from Sara's point of view and the reaction on arrival.  My guess is that she'd take the train in preference to an Appia but would hop in a Fulvia with enthusiasm. 

In the same way we went from a new Audi to a 20 year old Mercedes as a positive decision I can really see a Fulvia stacking up against something like a brand new Panda.  I just read the specs and the base Panda gets 54bhp, the 1200 60bhp and twin air turbo 85bhp.  Weights 1015kgs to 1110kg.  Interesting how even a 2C can still be a "traffic light king".

The other thing that's happend since seeing Richard's Fulvia is that I've opened my mind beyond the PF 1800 Flavias.  Somehow in the space of a month a Lancia 2000 had gone from "nahhh" to "I wonder what happend to that one that was advertised last month...?"   Still not convinced by the S1 Berlinas, S2 lovely, S3/2000s have benefits and a period charm all its own - but that discussion is for another thread another day.

David


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: chriswgawne on 14 June, 2012, 04:07:55 PM
To add to the debate, here is a point of view from another longtime Fulvia owner and enthusiast. Not me I hasten to add but he makes valid points.

"My own personal opinion is that, first of all, you should buy a Fulvia for its current condition and not for its original specifications. However, the 2C is inevitably underpowered for mountain driving or motorway cruising. Much better is to get, if possible, a GT or GTE. I have worked on many of them and also driven them and I should say that in my view, the performance and comfort are very similar. The main disadvantage of the GT is that engine spares (pistons, rings etc) are less readily available than those for the common 1.3. The main disadvantage of the GTE is that it was produced in small numbers so it is difficult to find a good one and the price goes up."

From Jacky's and my  point of view, we specifically want either a pale blue or grey saloon with a cloth interior and I believe I am right in saying that this was not an option for the GTE.  Certainly I have never seen one. We have no particular feelings about column/floor change so when we find the 'right one' which has to also have a low mileage and ideally to have not been restored, I reckon it will be a 2C or a GT.


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Richard Fridd on 20 August, 2012, 12:38:17 PM
I have received a pair of panels to improve the rear end and will fabricate a lower rear panel once these are fitted.Here they are!


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Richard Fridd on 25 August, 2012, 10:46:50 AM
One now fitted


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: fay66 on 25 August, 2012, 11:13:43 AM
Richard,
it looks very nice.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Richard Fridd on 28 August, 2012, 04:56:17 PM
Thank You Brian,other side now also fitted.


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Richard Fridd on 28 August, 2012, 05:03:41 PM
Another pic


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: LanciAlan on 28 August, 2012, 09:13:01 PM
How come you are passing me out? I started last November!


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: fay66 on 29 August, 2012, 12:41:06 AM
How come you are passing me out? I started last November!

Chugga Mk 2? ;D
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: HF_Dave on 29 August, 2012, 07:42:34 PM
Dont worry Alan, Replacing the rear arches on that car is is like rubbing out a scratch with a bit ot T cut compared to the work on your Fulvia Berlina. I mean that in a good way  :)


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Richard Fridd on 01 September, 2012, 12:28:38 PM
One now in blue.Next job rear valence.Perhaps a pattern part from another model could be made to fit.


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: LanciAlan on 02 September, 2012, 09:50:49 PM
Did you know Bill Lewis made a rear valance for my car? Not sure if you got the arches from him in the end (he made a wooden buck for those so he could make more in future) but maybe he also has a buck for the valance?


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Richard Fridd on 03 September, 2012, 07:51:56 AM
Hi Alan,I will try Bill if I can't get a valance locally.Did you by any chance see a wooden wheelarch  buck?as I can't say I have come across one before and it sounds like a tricky thing to make, or is it more of a template?Anyhow I hope your s1 is progressing well,and maybe see the car at Goodwood which is only nine months away!


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: LanciAlan on 04 September, 2012, 07:26:31 AM
Yes - more of a template made out of flat MDF as I recall. It traces the curve of the arch but not the profile of the flare. Did you get your arches from Bill?

Don't think I will be at Goodwood (or anywhere else) in my S1 at the rate things are going but I am not too bothered. There are a few nice Fulvia restorations coming to fruition here in Ireland that I can enjoy ....


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Richard Fridd on 04 September, 2012, 12:19:33 PM
Panels from Bill and very nice too!I thought I would get them as these things maybe difficult to find at reasonable cost in the future if the inner sill limited availability is anything to go by.I will get some blue paint on the second one tomorrow if I get a chance.Professional re finishing will have to wait pending funding! richard


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Richard Fridd on 04 September, 2012, 04:18:59 PM
Second arch now has a basic coat of Bleu Lancia.I noticed the rear tyres are due for replacement if anyone knows of a pair of surplus 155/80s for sale.richard


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Parisien on 04 September, 2012, 04:33:14 PM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1311&_nkw=155+80+13&_sacat=0

This search any good Richard....coming along very nicely!!!


P


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: fay66 on 04 September, 2012, 05:33:00 PM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1311&_nkw=155+80+13&_sacat=0

This search any good Richard....coming along very nicely!!!


P
No good as it's fitted with 155x 80x 14's. Could try this though http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BUDGET-SINGLE-TYRE-155-80R14-NANKANG-81T-155-80-14-/180915825667?pt=UK_Cars_Tyres_RL&fits=Tyre+Width%3A155%7CAspect+Ratio%3A80%7CDiameter%3A14&hash=item2a1f6c6c03
There's also another single tyre of the same brand from someone else listed as well.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Richard Fridd on 04 September, 2012, 05:56:32 PM
Thanks Frank and Brian,that gives me an idea of what is available.Will check locally too.I will swap the better of the rears  with the spare once I decide what to do.Fronts can go to the rear as they are good and the new tyres can go to the front.I should paint the wheels in the process.richard


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: LanciAlan on 05 September, 2012, 07:16:08 AM
I wouldn't think eBay is the best way to go for tyres unless the seller is nearby. Something like these period Dunlops would be my choice - but they are in Devon! And they are less popular winter tyres but probably ok for lower milage use. And they're still not cheap for wrong-spec pre-owned tyres!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-15514-Dunlop-155-14-Winter-Used-Part-Worn-Tyres-x-2-155-14-SP-/180957839585?pt=UK_Cars_Tyres_RL&fits=Tyre+Width%3A155|Aspect+Ratio%3A80|Diameter%3A14&hash=item2a21ed80e1#ht_2308wt_1143 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-15514-Dunlop-155-14-Winter-Used-Part-Worn-Tyres-x-2-155-14-SP-/180957839585?pt=UK_Cars_Tyres_RL&fits=Tyre+Width%3A155|Aspect+Ratio%3A80|Diameter%3A14&hash=item2a21ed80e1#ht_2308wt_1143).

We are experiencing a growing market for part-worn tyres here in Ireland - mainly quality brand name tyres which, I understand, come from places where people change from winter to summer tyres though there may be other sources too such as crashed/scrapped cars. Anyhow they are helping people keep their expensive SUVs and luxury motors on the road a bit longer as the recession deepens....


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: JohnMillham on 05 September, 2012, 07:31:19 AM
Why not get your Lancia's tyres from Chugga as there's a perfectly good postal service? His business is selling tyres.
 Regards, John 


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Dilambdaman on 01 March, 2013, 07:39:25 PM
Look what's in my garage!

Yep, I've taken the plunge and bought Richard's Fulvia Berlina. Went over with Margaret to look on Wednesday, fell in love (with the car) and collected it today.

As David Laver says in the first post on this thread it is an absolute gem, and driving home in it this afternoon it is a wonderful testimony to Richard's skill and dedication to the task of preserving it. Everything essential works and it drives like a new car, even the radio works!. No kidding. Cosmetically it needs a fair bit of TLC , principley the door skins but so good is the rest of it that it truly will be worth the effort and expense. I haven't told Jonathan yet and neither has he seen it, so things could get a bit tense tomorrow morning when he comes to work on the Fanalone.

So, why did I even go and look, let alone buy it? Well, our South African friends Tony and Shelley Seiler are coming over for a holiday and particularly want to take in Fulvia 50. Tony runs a Lancia care garage in SA and would naturally like to have a Fulvia whilst over here. Seemed like a good idea to buy Richards car, titivate it, let the Seilers use it and then sell it on for a small profit. At least that's how I sold it to Margaret but having driven it I'm having a huge nostalgia moment and hope that maybe Margaret will join in and we'll keep it. Oh, there goes a pig flying by!

So, old Lancia proverb, 'when you've got a mammoth restoration project on your hands, take on another'. Insanity here I come. :o

Robin



Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: DavidLaver on 01 March, 2013, 07:55:38 PM

Brilliant !!

David


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: the.cern on 01 March, 2013, 09:38:25 PM
Gone from one good home to another !!!!  And what a friend to buy a car solely to allow someone else to have a drive !!!!

I'm sure you will thoroughly enjoy it and I can't help feeling that pig will land somewhere out of sight and let you enjoy the car long after your friends have departed for SA.

Best wishes and have fun,

                                     Andy


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: fay66 on 01 March, 2013, 11:05:51 PM
Great Stuff Robin,
 I know both of you have been hankering after a Berlina ever since you sold CTA 762C, which was my original inspiration to look for a 2c, culminating in me buying "Fay", and 16 years of happy ownership and Fulvia fun. I don't think there's a lot of chance of it being sold on though ;D

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: Dilambdaman on 01 March, 2013, 11:27:03 PM
Thanks for the picture of CTA Brian, I think its the LMC AGM at Carlisle?  My but that was a long way from Sussex and Jonathan took the Fanalone along too.

REobin.


Title: Re: I'm a convert to Fulvia Berlinas
Post by: fay66 on 01 March, 2013, 11:59:17 PM
Thanks for the picture of CTA Brian, I think its the LMC AGM at Carlisle?  My but that was a long way from Sussex and Jonathan took the Fanalone along too.

REobin.
Robin
Not Carlisle but Goodwood track day about 1998 before I had "Fay" back on the road as I also took a photo of OPD 37E soon after Cesari had bought her from Michael Newberry.
A couple taken at Michael Newberry's Picnic where I first see CTA, and when I made my mind up that I wanted a 2c.
Next are 2 very sad photos taken in november 2005 when she was in a bad way, shortly after this photo she went to Ireland where she has been completely restored by Bill Shannon, a non LMC Member.

Brian
8227 8)