Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Aprilia, Ardennes and Ardea => Topic started by: St Volumex on 07 May, 2012, 06:44:04 AM



Title: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 07 May, 2012, 06:44:04 AM
I've had a request for new Aprilia inside door handles, because the originals are made out of soft alloy.

I like projects like this, because it is an item whose weakness is likely to afflict all Aprilias, and therefore there is a ready market for them.
 
While I am not averse to doing one off items (though the cost is more for the client), I prefer to launch a ĎProjectí, and get early buy-in from interested parties. 
 
So, how many door handles could we reasonably sell to the worldwide Aprilia community, and how could I get in touch with most of them?

If you are interested please reply to this thread.

Thanks & regards


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: simonandjuliet on 07 May, 2012, 06:54:44 AM
Hi
I would be interested in a set, so long as the price was reasonable .....

The only problem is one person's reasonable is another's cheap or expensive !!


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 07 May, 2012, 08:35:13 AM
Hi Simon,

Thank you for being the Initiator of this Project!

I will try and keep the price down as far as possible, but it will vary depending on the route we decide to take:

A cheap, low melt-temperature alloy casting is probably how the original handles were made, and we might run the risk of having the same result which would defeat the whole purpose.  ::)

Regards,


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: chugga boom on 07 May, 2012, 04:19:29 PM
possibly 3 sets for me if the price is right


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 07 May, 2012, 06:00:22 PM
possibly 3 sets for me if the price is right

Now that's what I like to hear!

The more people buy in to the Project the better the economies of scale - and that coming from a Scot!  ;D


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: Scarpia on 08 May, 2012, 05:03:22 AM
I've not had a problem with breaking doorhandles (touch wood), it's the 3 small locking switches just under them on the passenger doors  (round with a small projection) that have broken with the years. Alas I have no photo of how they were before the last one came off in my hand.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 08 May, 2012, 06:16:20 AM
I've not had a problem with breaking doorhandles (touch wood), it's the 3 small locking switches just under them on the passenger doors  (round with a small projection) that have broken with the years. Alas I have no photo of how they were before the last one came off in my hand.

William, that sounds like another project worth doing?


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: tzf60 on 09 May, 2012, 08:39:27 AM
Guy,
I am interested in a full set of Aprilia interior door handles, if the price is sensible.

Tim


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 09 May, 2012, 09:01:26 AM
Guy,
I am interested in a full set of Aprilia interior door handles, if the price is sensible.

Tim

Thank you Tim F - that brings the total to 24 sensibly priced handles!  :)


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: davidwheeler on 13 May, 2012, 03:46:03 PM
A set for me, too, please, then I can take off the substitutes I have fitted with the aid of plastic metal.
David


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 13 May, 2012, 05:07:19 PM
Thank you David, nice to hear from you again since we met on the Sliding Pillar a few years ago!


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: DavidLaver on 14 May, 2012, 08:36:32 AM


Looks like you've hit on a winner!!

As with the watches WELL worth putting a note in Viva Lancia - the forum is quite a small proportion of the club.

David


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: davidwheeler on 14 May, 2012, 09:15:17 AM
Just had a thought - any chance of window winder handles as well, they were made from the same disintegrous metal?


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 14 May, 2012, 04:29:38 PM
Thanks David W, I will be advertising in V/L soon too.

Re. the window winder handles - thanks for the tip! We will make (almost) anything people want, but it must be good quality, at a reasonable price for resale, and still make economic sense for us too.  ::)


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 15 May, 2012, 07:17:29 AM
It seems we have a Project or two, so;

1) What material should we make the handles from; aluminium or bronze (which will need chroming too)?

2) Can somebody please post some photos of the door handle, window winder handle, and door lock 'switches' on this thread?

Thanks and regards,


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: simonandjuliet on 15 May, 2012, 09:12:41 PM
I can post pictures in the next couple of days.

Regards the remanufacture, I would prefer bronze,chromed. However if this is prohibitive, I would be happy with alu.

Question - would alu be strong enough ? The handle is quite slender ...

Secondly, how would you propose remaking the splines? Re-using old ones or new fabrication ?




Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 16 May, 2012, 03:47:03 AM
I can post pictures in the next couple of days.

Regards the remanufacture, I would prefer bronze,chromed. However if this is prohibitive, I would be happy with alu.

Question - would alu be strong enough ? The handle is quite slender ...

Secondly, how would you propose remaking the splines? Re-using old ones or new fabrication ?


Thanks Simon, I'm looking forward to the photos.

A lot of Appia handles are made from aluminium, and I would prefer bronze too, but that process brings it's own peculiar challenges.  ;D

We'll worry about the finer detail once we are a bit further along in the project.

Thanks & regards,


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: davidwheeler on 20 May, 2012, 08:42:16 PM
Door handles have spline inserts in steel but the window winders do not so I think aluminium for those may not be strong enough.  I have some broken examples of both, would you like me to send them to you - they would do as a start for patterns?


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 21 May, 2012, 02:33:19 AM
Door handles have spline inserts in steel but the window winders do not so I think aluminium for those may not be strong enough.  I have some broken examples of both, would you like me to send them to you - they would do as a start for patterns?

David W that's very kind of you, but I'll try and get some samples from my (one and only) local Aprilia man first thanks, but may take up your offer later.

I'm glad that the Project is eliciting some interest, judging from the number of Private mails I've received too.  Thank you everyone.

To answer the question which keeps popping up about aluminium being strong enough, here's a pic of some Appia handles which seem fine, as I don't have too many Appia owners asking for them - just yet.  ;D

Another suggestion is that we make them from stainless steel which will be very strong, and eliminate the need for chroming, if we were to use bronze.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: simonandjuliet on 21 May, 2012, 04:53:56 PM
Been a bit pre-occupied with getting a Renault Rodeo back on the road in time for the sun (!)

I would be happy with stainless ......

I am not sure if the door lock latch is original - I think not, but the others are. The latch is also too short because it is a bit broken.

Look forward to your news
Simon


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: Scarpia on 22 May, 2012, 06:35:06 AM
the latch looks original, mine looked the same until the tabs broke off...


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: davidwheeler on 22 May, 2012, 08:17:48 AM
Latch is right, square shaft is 15mm long.  The screw is a bit special...


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: simonandjuliet on 22 May, 2012, 05:20:16 PM
This is the "rounder" version which I had on my first Aprilia



Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 25 May, 2012, 06:44:38 AM
Once again, thank you to everyone, but especially Simon and David W for the photos.

Just to let you know that things are moving along with the project, and I may be able to announce some indicative pricing next week.

However, I do not want to rush things, but rather do them thoroughly, so if anyone is really desperate for handles, I understand these are available elsewhere, but for a tidy sum.  :o

This Project is much bigger than the LMC, and at the moment I'm investigating other markets too, which will help bring the cost down.

I also believe that a poll wouldn't be a bad idea to get a better idea of exactly what Aprilia owners want.

Regards,


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: davidwheeler on 30 May, 2012, 08:26:23 AM
Mine are first series latches, are yours second?


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: lancialulu on 12 June, 2012, 09:03:49 PM
Have been watching this thread thinking should I be interested....

Anyway having broken a window winder I have decided to be.

The window winder is articulated and the main shaft in made of Mazak which shattered at the weakest part. Looking at my Aprilia I seem to have at least one inside door handle also made of Mazak and one chrome plated...

So I would prefer Chrome plated or polished Aluminium.

Tim


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 12 June, 2012, 09:35:43 PM
Thanks for your vote Tim!


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 27 June, 2012, 07:44:41 PM
A poll on a parallel thread has revealed as much as we can expect for the moment, so let's move right along: [I've posted this same message on that thread too.]

I'm a purist when it comes to authenticity, but also a realist that sees room for improvement, or we wouldn't be making new door handles in the first place!

I've spoken to my foundrymen over the past weeks, and while it is possible to make the handles in stainless steel, they would be more expensive as that would require a different furnace process.

With reasonable pricing in mind, my first vote would be for an original-style bronze handle, finished and chrome plated, yet better that the original, with the option of ordering it with, or without a new splined shaft.

Second choice is as above, but made in stainless steel.

I hope to report back next week with ballpark pricing on both these options which should narrow our choices down a bit more.

Regards,


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: apriliadriver on 08 July, 2012, 08:11:00 AM
For info : I had five new inside door handles made up in bronze by Harling Foundries, Hastings, in 2006 (01424 443160).

I made up a pattern using the only good handle I had left : the cost inc VAT was £158, so about £30 each.

I extracted the splined bobbins from the broken handles (by burning them out with a blowtorch after trying other methods) and got Harling to cast them into the new handles.

When finished I smoothed off the castings and had the handles chromed  -  I do not have the invoice but that would have been about £10 each. The result was completely satisfactory and now giving good service.

So  -   total cost per handle somewhere between £40 and £50. Harling were very hepful and very quick.

Nick S.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: chriswgawne on 12 July, 2012, 04:02:04 PM
I have discovered that I have 4 examples of the 'rounder' latch as per Simon's post & photograph of May 22nd if these are of any interest to anyone.
2 of them are plated (which needs redoing).
The other 2 are aluminium and on these the square section is slightly tapered.
I also have 1 bolt and another aluminium latch which does not have the square section post however there is a square section hole through this latch. Is it designed to be the female version of one of the others?


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 12 July, 2012, 05:32:43 PM
Today I drove 200 Kilometres (there and back) to a boutique foundry out in the bush, where the Foundryman shared some truly fascinating insights into the pros and cons of making these handles in different guises using various materials.  :)

More next week when I've completed my Grand Tour.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 13 July, 2012, 03:45:20 AM
I have discovered that I have 4 examples of the 'rounder' latch as per Simon's post & photograph of May 22nd if these are of any interest to anyone.
2 of them are plated (which needs redoing).
The other 2 are aluminium and on these the square section is slightly tapered.
I also have 1 bolt and another aluminium latch which does not have the square section post however there is a square section hole through this latch. Is it designed to be the female version of one of the others?

I'm interested thanks Chris - sent you a PM.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 20 July, 2012, 08:13:48 AM
Iíve been waiting to make contact with a particular foundry for a few days, and have just finished having a coffee and breakfast with their representative. 
 
The problem is that the pricing Iíve received so far ranges from the sublime to the ridiculous, but give me until early next week, when Iíll announce ballpark pricing on the Forum.

Regards,


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 05 August, 2012, 06:08:21 PM
I often say about Lancia restoration; "If this were simple, every Tom, Dick, & Harry would be doing it!"

Things have slipped a bit (interrupted by a mini-holiday, long weekend in the Magaliesberg), but more seriously, the foundry I will be using for this and other projects has not quoted yet on firm pricing.   

However, although I'm an oldish Engineer, I learned a great deal about the niceties of mould making, casting, and in particular the dangers of running an induction furnace which one needs to cast stainless steel. 

Three most interesting facts emerged:

1. That we should cast the handle WITHOUT the splined shaft, because of interaction between it and the molten metal, and the complications it would introduce when making a modest quantity of about 24 handles (the optimium quantity for economy) at a time. (The splined shaft would be epoxied in afterward, giving a much stronger bond.)

2. That some foundries can make a good steel handle cheaper than the cost of a bronze one plus chrome plating - the plating adding another complication to production.

3. That a stainless steel handle would be only marginally more expensive that an 'ordinary' steel one.

So I've modified the poll, which in essence asks, "If you could choose between a bronze handle and a stainless steel one for the same price, which one would it be?" (See poll on parallel thread.)


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 15 September, 2012, 09:02:51 AM
Unfortunately some of the enthusiasm and impetus about this project seems to have dissipated, and I don't even own an Aprilia!  ;D

Although I have quite a few 'bits & bobs', I am still without an inside door handle sample (my source seems to have dried up), without which I can't proceed...  :(

Any volunteers to help keep the handles turning please?


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: williamcorke on 15 September, 2012, 01:41:01 PM
Might be able to help you - do you have a photo of the exact type you need to borrow and I'll check against what's on my car and in spare parts boxes.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 15 September, 2012, 02:04:51 PM
Thank you William, I am much obliged.

Here's the door handle I need.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: williamcorke on 15 September, 2012, 07:07:50 PM
Here's what's on my car (front door, I assume rears are the same).  I didn't remove the retaining plate which is attached to the handle with a circlip.

Looks the same?  Is the one you've posted foreshortened in the photograph, because mine looks more elongated - could be a photographic distortion.  Probably best to provide measurements for both.

It seems to be made of brass, as far as I can tell.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GEMHNMyVaS0/UFTRtDP6PdI/AAAAAAAADrI/lpK_z4ZreoM/s800/handle%252038-1427.jpg)


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 16 September, 2012, 08:39:17 AM
That's the one!


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: simonandjuliet on 16 September, 2012, 04:15:09 PM
I have just removed my originals and fitted a set of Appia handles as an interim solution, so can send you something to copy if required.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 16 September, 2012, 05:57:45 PM
Thank you Simon, that's very generous of you too!

How well do the Appia handles fit, and is the Appia window winder handle also a good substitute?

What I really want to know is, are the winder handle splines (on the Aprilia's door) the same as the Appias? 

If they are, this will solve a few handle manufacturing problems for us too.  :)


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: simonandjuliet on 17 September, 2012, 03:16:36 PM
The door handles and window winders fit straight on. I had to clean the splines with a fine file, but they push straight on and the screws line up. The back plate on the winder is a shade smaller than an Aprilia one and the winder itself may be a touch shorter, but I will check

The door locking levers do not fit though, the square peg is too short

They look acceptable and work well. I will take a couple of photos later so you can see and make your own minds up !


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: simonandjuliet on 18 September, 2012, 05:33:22 PM
As you can see, they are similar in terms of size and form. You could grind them down to be more alike .....

The Dali-esque picture shows how different the door lock levers are.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 19 September, 2012, 07:11:09 AM
Thanks Simon for those interesting comparisons! (Love Dali too!)

Now, can anyone show us what the spline looks like INSIDE the handle please?  (I would be reluctant to destroy a perfectly serviceable handle just for a peek.)


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: davidwheeler on 19 September, 2012, 04:14:22 PM
Not quite because I have cemented them into my substitute handles but essentially they are splined tubes of steel cast into the handle.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: ben on 20 September, 2012, 01:44:08 PM
Have just given a broken one a good thumping and revealed the following:


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: williamcorke on 20 September, 2012, 06:11:24 PM
That's interesting.  It makes sense to have a screwdriver-like flange - it might offer more grip against the casting of the handle than another splined end (an engineer can probably tell us).  That handle looks more like pot-metal than brass; were they made in more than one type of material?

If the handle I photographed is wanted as a pattern, let me know.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 21 September, 2012, 08:38:49 AM
Ben, thank you for clearing that up.  I always imagined (I don't know why) that the end inside the handle was also a spline ???  I think it was probably made that way to save costs.

William C, I will let you know, as in the meantime since my appeal, some more offers of sample handles have been made.

Regards,


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 22 September, 2012, 06:19:23 AM
William C, you are right too that the screwdriver-type end of the spined shaft would make it strong to withstand the torque applied to the handle.

Now I also have a better understanding of how the splined shaft needs to be fitted to the handle.

Is the orientation of the shaft in the handle very critical, or do the splines allow enough minor adjustment so the handle faces (more or less) the right way?

Now I'd love to have a sample of the spined shaft too please!  ;D

(All these thoughts whirled around in my head at 03h45 this morning when I was woken by a thunderstorm!)

Regards,


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: davidwheeler on 24 September, 2012, 08:33:01 AM
I don't think so, there is fine enough adjustment available to position the handles where you will.   I was assuming, if we are using stainless steel or brass, that the splines would have been cast as a piece with the handle?  But I suppose this may not be possible mechanically as the splines may need to be machined?  My original doorhandles seem to be cast in rubbishmetal (some sort of zinc alloy I think that decays after 20 years).

Incidentally, apologies for my confusion earlier  re door handle splines.  Splines tubes??  Don't know what I was thinking of!  The hollow splines in the window winders are cast in situ of course, less stress on them.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 25 September, 2012, 08:33:32 AM
David W, that's good news and will make them easier to make.

I have all but decided to make the inside door handles WITHOUT the splines cast inside them, as that creates too many manufacturing headaches, and limits the number of handles we can make at one time.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazak_(alloy) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazak_(alloy)) for more on that rubbishmetal!  ;D


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: appiaman on 27 September, 2012, 06:49:23 PM
Guyz i just bought handles today from cavallito in turin someone already making them in italy.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 27 September, 2012, 06:53:59 PM
I heard the ones from Cavalitto are Euro 100.00 each?


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: Parisien on 27 September, 2012, 09:12:01 PM
As theres quite a bit of interest would you ask Cavalittos for a group discount?


P


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: appiaman on 28 September, 2012, 04:59:47 AM
I will ask this morning. I had a quite from a guy local to me to make a small batch but the cost was about the same. You have to make more than 100 sets to pay for the tooling to make it wort while and even then he said it would be about £20 handle before chroming. Chroming is expensive too so I think the 100 euro  handle not to bad if you want the real thing. Unless someone wants to spend £5000 on making a load of handles and keep in there shed for the next ten years


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 28 September, 2012, 06:49:46 AM
I am still prepared to make batches as small as 24 stainless steel handles at under £70 each.  :)


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: davidwheeler on 29 September, 2012, 08:52:24 AM
That's about 100 Euro...


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: davidwheeler on 29 September, 2012, 08:56:48 AM
That's door handles which can be substituted.  What I really need is window winder handles.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 29 September, 2012, 10:31:06 AM
£70 is only an estimate based on a very small production run, and at this stage on the LMC forum it seems we only have enough people interested in half of those.  ???

I'm prepared to make anything as long as it makes economic sense, and provided I can get a decent sample.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: appiaman on 02 October, 2012, 06:06:01 PM
Hi guys did ask Cavallito is not willing to reduce price for handles.
I only need the door opening one's
christo


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: Parisien on 02 October, 2012, 06:13:10 PM
Thats a shame that theres no concept of a forum/bulk buy.....I think its an Italian thing!


P


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: appiaman on 02 October, 2012, 06:27:03 PM
Think its an italian thing.
All the other bit he has would be nice to have but the small list I send through for the aprilia i am doing has come to near £4000.
A lot of money quickly.


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: simonandjuliet on 10 October, 2012, 08:09:07 PM
What is the 'gut-feel' for this project ? Is it going to happen - I feel we do we need a sensibly priced solution to a problem that is not going away?

I have a temporary,pragmatic answer, but not a permanent one .......


Title: Re: Aprilia inside door handles
Post by: St Volumex on 15 October, 2012, 02:35:00 AM
What is the 'gut-feel' for this project ? Is it going to happen - I feel we do we need a sensibly priced solution to a problem that is not going away?

I have a temporary,pragmatic answer, but not a permanent one .......

It is only going to happen if there is enough interest.

I too have a temporary, pragmatic answer:

We buy 4 juicy salif citrus squeezers by Philippe Starck, cut the legs off them, drill a hole in the end and glue in the splined shaft, and we have door handles for 3 cars...   ;D