Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Aurelia => Topic started by: B20B24 on 21 February, 2012, 08:11:59 PM



Title: B50 for sale
Post by: B20B24 on 21 February, 2012, 08:11:59 PM
Another B50 ragtop  for sale:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-/251002226653?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3a70e607dd

A gold project car sold in 2 days last week with Gullwing Cars in NYC - asking $42500


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 22 February, 2012, 09:38:45 AM
Auto Classic in Torino are asking 55,000euro for the green B50 Cabriolet. It is missing its bumpers, but other than that is very original, if in somewhat poor condition!

The gold B50 that was for sale in New York is a one-off show car by Balbo of Torino. I enquired about it, the person selling it did not really know what he was selling. It came with five engines all in bits! Unfortunately it didn't have any documents and by the time I had researched all of its history it had been sold........... doh!  Expect to see it for sale by a European dealer soon for twice the price!

Photos below, green B50 for sale at Auto Classic and Gold B50 Balbo sold in New York including an original picture from when it was new.


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: B20B24 on 22 February, 2012, 08:11:14 PM
Rare indeed the gold example - but the face is not as good as the PF version in my opinion. You're right though there was a profit in it and it will probably be flipped. Oh well, next time...


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: GG on 23 February, 2012, 02:16:25 AM
So if these are worht $40-50k, why do the restored ones for ~$150k languish? Or is there more to the story than that?


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 23 February, 2012, 06:51:22 PM
I would say that the B50 is such an unknown car that there are few people actually looking for one, this is probably why they stay on the market for so long. Of course they are also rather underpowered, unless you fit the B12 engine, then they become the car they should have been all along.

The gold Balbo car is a little different however as it is a one off design, so would be welcome at most of the world's most prestigious concours events, hence the premium on the price. ( The Balbo car in my opinion was underpriced and the green pf cabriolet is overpriced)

To quote from the recent Aurelia soft-top group test in Classic & Sports Car "Delectable B24 Spider and Convertible look similar yet they share no panels. Buckley reckons that the voluptuous B50 is almost as good to drive, though"

I think you are right Clive the Balbo car doesn't look as good as a regular pf Cabriolet, trouble is though the pf car is just far to common...... they made 265 of them for heavens sake!!


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: B20B24 on 23 February, 2012, 07:51:18 PM
You're right the prices are in inverse proportion on those two Ade. Unique it maybe, but I don't like that brassy 40s US inspired Balbo front (although the back is much better). No bites on your 'mass produced' version, then? I don't see why it should be much different, market wise, to a  6c2500 Alfa cabrio  ;D


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: GG on 23 February, 2012, 10:21:01 PM
I would say that the B50 is such an unknown car that there are few people actually looking for one, this is probably why they stay on the market for so long. Of course they are also rather underpowered, unless of course you fit the B12 engine, then they become the car they should have been all along.

The gold Balbo car is a little different however as it is a one off design, so would be welcome at most of the world's most prestigious concours events, hence the premium on the price. ( The Balbo car in my opinion was underpriced and the green pf cabriolet is overpriced)

To quote from the recent Aurelia soft-top group test in Classic & Sports Car "Delectable B24 Spider and Convertible look similar yet the share no panels. Buckley reckons that the voluptuous B50 is almost as good to drive, though"

I think you are right Clive the Balbo car doesn't look as good as a regular pf Cabriolet, trouble is though the pf car is just far to common...... they made 265 of them for heavens sake!!

Must agree. For years never gave B50's another thought, but a long day ride in one in Switzerland changed the impression: B12 like solidity, B24 open air. Rather magical and seductive. 


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: JohnMillham on 24 February, 2012, 08:42:47 AM
I also agree. Years ago, when visiting Kord Beddig, I had a ride in Sebastien's in Switzerland and it was brilliant. Andrew Maclagan was also most impressed, so it must have been good!
 Regards, John


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 24 February, 2012, 03:38:25 PM
I don't see why it should be much different, market wise, to a  6c2500 Alfa cabrio  ;D
That would be nice!!


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Sebastien on 12 August, 2012, 10:07:18 AM
Another B50 is yet again for sale, at Gullwing Motor Cars in NYC:
http://www.gullwingmotorcars.com/detail-1950-lancia_aurelia-b50_pf-coupe-used-9184292.html
This is a standard B50 Pinin Farina Cabriolet, with later B20 hubcaps, requested price: US$ 97.500
Dark blue color is nice.
Price seems almost reasonable today, compared to the amounts quoted for other B50s in Europe.
Leaves some change for a B12 engine and gearbox upgrade...to have a really good 5-seater touring car.
However, who knows what was done, or not done, during restoration, many years ago?


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Parisien on 12 August, 2012, 11:38:10 AM
Looks very smart. So 62K versus 90K......below -

http://www.anamera.com/en/detail/car/118324/index.html?no_cache=1&ret=63

Having said that if not correct or does need any revision then thet 30K can be quickly swallowed up.

Then again.....is the 90K car correct/very good too?!


P



Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Sebastien on 12 August, 2012, 04:16:32 PM
P, that dutch B50 you mention in the last post has also been on sale for 4-5 years, if not more!

Why? I have no idea, but I do not like the color (that makes the car big - which it is!), I do not like the wire wheels (which could be resold easily - more difficult would be to find the correct steel wheels), the front treatment is wrong (look at the air intakes between lights and radiator), the Nardi kit on a small engine must be a pig to set-up (and does not bring the required oomph).

Also, because it has been on the market so long, one starts thinking that the car has maybe some other faults! Or maybe, just no one is interested in a 1750 cc, 56 HP 5 seater, at that price level.

However I know similar B50, with the same small engine, that run very well indeed. You just should not expect to take any motorway climb with 3 passengers at 75 mph!



Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Sebastien on 12 August, 2012, 07:34:40 PM
Further B50 appear for sale, on autobelle.it
This one is interesting, for 70'000 Euros:
http://www.autobelle.it/annunci/dettid.php?gb_id=160123
A giant B20, 2 doors, for 5 persons, with a B50 cabriolet front.
Looks very nice, would raise some eyebrows at an Aurelia lunch!

The 4 door Pinin Farina B51 is also still available (but at 110'000 Euros not in the same league)


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 19 October, 2012, 06:07:15 PM
As predicted the gold Balbo B50 has resurfaced, it is on the Joop Stolze web site http://www.stolzeclassiccars.nl/default.asp (Aurelia B50 cabrio heading in the Lancia section)
I enquired about the car, but it is already sold.
Interestingly he also has the engines that came with the car for sale (Look under AA parts heading in the Lancia section). There are three, YES THREE! Aurelia B24 engines and one B20 unit.


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: williamcorke on 30 October, 2012, 06:40:19 PM
Interestingly he also has the engines that came with the car for sale (Look under AA parts heading in the Lancia section). There are three, YES THREE! Aurelia B24 engines and one B20 unit.

I enquired today about the B20 engine as I'm looking for one for my early S4 B20 project.  The B20 engine Stolze had was S3 but I am throwing the net wide at the moment to see what's available.

All 4 engines are sold.  I wonder which Aurelia magpie snaffled them (have my suspicions)?

Does anyone here know of a B20 engine (any condition is fine) with a serial number close to 3360 (the best estimate I have been able to come up with for what would have been fitted at the factory). 

I believe that the 'correct' (i.e. originally fitted) engine number for my car # 2959 is recorded and that the Registro Aurelia have this data.  The Registro's policy is to confirm whether the engine you have is correct, rather than to hand out engine numbers; even to certified owners of cars.  The logic here is, as I understand it, that forgery (restamping of engines to create matching-number cars) can thus be avoided.  Understandable I suppose, but frustrating for me, as if I knew the correct engine number there is a chance - albeit a small one - that I could track the engine down.  The reuniting of chassis and engine after years apart is not uncommon in the early Ferrari world, but how to accomplish it without build data is definitely a challenge!


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Parisien on 30 October, 2012, 06:49:24 PM
Will, can't remember if this one was flagged up before....

http://annunci.ebay.it/annunci/ricambi-e-accessori/milano-annunci-legnano/lancia-aurelia-b20/15555363


P


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Parisien on 30 October, 2012, 06:52:29 PM
Try this guy in Australia....has lots for sale....

http://www.viva-lancia.com/lancia_forsale/lancia_aurelia_2.htm


P


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Parisien on 30 October, 2012, 06:57:48 PM
http://www.prewarcar.com/index.php?option=com_caradvert&view=ad&section_id=5&id=73178&Itemid=435


Lancia Aurelia B20 IV serie engine-s (and parts) for sale for Lancia, rebuilt apparently.....12000 euros in Italy


P


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: williamcorke on 30 October, 2012, 10:29:07 PM
Thanks Frank for the suggestions.  I think I've corresponded with all the owners you've pointed out.  The 4th Series engine in Italy (asking price 12k Euros) is close in number to what I want.  Against that is the uncertainty of paying the price for a rebuilt engine when you're not sure of the competence of the work done on it.  A UK Aurelia engine guru told me there's only one person in Italy whose rebuilds he would trust...

There are two things I would like help with (searching internet ads is something I have, I think, mastered over the years, though someone that little bit more obsessive even than I am might possibly unearth an untapped seam!):

1. a private lead to a suitable engine
2. a way of unlocking the missing build data so that I know the number for the engine I really want to track down...

Not much to ask!


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Parisien on 30 October, 2012, 10:42:44 PM
Will.....they are out there, but I suspect jealously guarded by their current owners.

12k for an unknown quantity in a huge risk, better off getting a known seized engine, untouched and doing a rebuild in UK. Are the Italians that bad at engine rebuilds?!

I know one or two other people to ask, but as a "newbie" I don't have the depth of knowledge, kudos and contacts others on the forum and in the club have, so might just come up short in getting the relevant answer!

As you say a tip off/private lead to an enthusiast whose in it for the love of the coupe is your best bet.

I know matching numbers is very important, but what truly are the chances unless a worldwide data base has been maintained of current known engines? Fine re known produced engines matched to produced cars, but will be a very long shot. The internet has its limits and in a Lancia Aurelia world of guarded secrets (Italian style), its not what you know but who you know.

Leave it with me and I will let Sherlock off the leash!!!


;)


P


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: williamcorke on 30 October, 2012, 11:05:02 PM

I know matching numbers is very important...

P

I'm not obsessed with the current 'matching numbers' thing myself.  It can get a bit silly, all that stuff.  But it does irritate me that I currently can't even ask the question: does anyone out there have the engine that my car was fitted with when it left the factory on 11th June 1954?  There's a database in Italy that has the information I want, but I'm not allowed access to it.  This, it seems to me, is against the spirit of the old car world.

This is what I am allowed to know:

data montaggio:   05 - 03 - 1954
rimessa:         11 - 06 - 1954  
colore:         bleu
selleria:         panno
note particolari:      grigio
n. scocca:         002000
n. prop. differ.:      1083
n. sosp. anter.:      1991
n. guida:         2033


It looked at one point like I might have to pay a fee to access the data above, but Paulo Giusti kindly gave me the contact details for the Lancia Club (for historic Lancias) at Fiat, who provided it for free.  But not the engine number (sorry, banging a drum here).


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: Parisien on 30 October, 2012, 11:18:38 PM
No doubt theres a way around all this Will......looks like a trip to Italy is in order, press some Italian flesh....:)


P


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: chriswgawne on 31 October, 2012, 07:54:57 AM
Interesting to consider what happened to the cars which the 3 X B24 engines recently sold by Stolze were originally fitted to? Maybe the cars still exist but with different engines?
Chris


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: chriswgawne on 31 October, 2012, 08:24:47 AM
William,
I have sent you a email as I might be able to help you.
Chris


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: williamcorke on 31 October, 2012, 02:03:13 PM
Interesting to consider what happened to the cars which the 3 X B24 engines recently sold by Stolze were originally fitted to? Maybe the cars still exist but with different engines?
Chris

It is indeed intriguing.  The numbers all being so close together seems to be stretching coincidence.  I wonder if the 3 B24 engines were a factory supplied set of 'spare' engines for a USA importer (Hoffman, Inskip?). Someone reading this will, I hope, remember more than I can about a rescue mission, years ago, to save a vast collection of Lancia spares - mainly Aurelia - in the USA.  I read about this somewhere but can't remember where.  GG will know.  Perhaps these engines were part of that story.

Whatever, the c. 40k USD paid for the gold B50, including 4 spare engines, was certainly an outstanding deal for someone.  The spare engines alone must be worth a good proportion of the price paid for the package.


Title: Re: B50 for sale
Post by: GG on 04 November, 2012, 04:18:06 AM
GG is unhappily forgetting more of what he knew than what he remembers. There was the gold B50 with a few engines, but I don't remember where they came from - they were in NY for sale together at one time. Perhaps one of the older Lancia folks here gave them up.

The proximity of numbers is not unheard of here. THere are quite a few s. 4 B20s from around V20S-1230, all from a major shipment to San Francisco (we think). There are about 8-12 cars right around each of these numbers.

But for these motors - nothing comes to mind. Sorry.