Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Aurelia => Topic started by: ncundy on 02 January, 2012, 12:27:10 AM



Title: B24 engine for sale
Post by: ncundy on 02 January, 2012, 12:27:10 AM
Not mine :)  but if it is what it says then it's very good value

http://aberdeen.craigslist.co.uk/pts/2750738540.html


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: williamcorke on 02 January, 2012, 12:47:22 AM
Last year (Sept 2010) I followed-up an ad for an Aurelia engine from the same part of the world and displaying the same photo.  I smelled a rat when the seller wouldn't talk to me on the phone (claimed recent throat surgery); so I asked questions of online forums (fora?) and found that a repeat-offender would-be scammer was at work.

Of course there's a possibility that the ad is genuine this time...

As ever, caveat emptor.


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: ncundy on 02 January, 2012, 09:48:32 AM
Good advice, it's certainly very cheap for an Aurelia engine if that's what it is and they do say if it's too good to be true it usually is.


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: B20B24 on 02 January, 2012, 12:53:59 PM
Not mine :)  but if it is what it says then it's very good value

http://aberdeen.craigslist.co.uk/pts/2750738540.html

Beware! - that is definitely a fraud - that was my old spare engine I sold a couple of years ago on eBay - the picture is the same I used in the listing of the motor in my garage. In my limited experience of the craiglist site, almost everything on there is fraud.

Watch out :)

Clive


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: peteracs on 02 January, 2012, 04:08:25 PM
Hi Clive

Out of interest if you do not mind me asking, what was the engine you sold? What price did you sell it for?

Thanks

Peter


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: B20B24 on 02 January, 2012, 07:12:02 PM
Hi Clive

Out of interest if you do not mind me asking, what was the engine you sold? What price did you sell it for?

Thanks

Peter

Hi Peter -  I sold a surplus complete Aurelia engine with heads stamped B24 xxx less all ancillaries, sold unseized but for total rebuild only. It had been out of a car for at least 30 years (originally from a scrapped late B24S convertible,  series 6 I believe). The winning bid was Euro 7500, at the time about 6k sterling. It was sold to a German garage, acting on behalf of a Russian buyer. I bought the engine years ago from an Italian vendor with a package of other Aurelia parts when I embarked on my Spyder restoration in 2004.

At the time (2010) I was not unhappy with what I got for it, although as it transpired I had a massive amount of grief with the sale later. Wish I'd kept it under the bench, to be honest!

Clive



Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: Richard Fridd on 02 January, 2012, 07:46:53 PM
Sorry to be naïve but what sort of grief is possible with selling an engine as I may be selling a low miles fulvia engine which is 'under my bench'best regards richard


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: ncundy on 02 January, 2012, 09:03:02 PM
Given the state of the worlds finances I think an Aurelia engine "under the bench" may be one of the safest investments around! It would be damn hard for the EU to bugger that up as a savings plan   :D


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: peteracs on 02 January, 2012, 11:32:51 PM
Hi Clive

Thanks for that, makes this one as mentioned completely suspect.

I did email the guy and received a response quite quickly giving its location as "I'm from south of aberdeen, Fife, St Andrews", which in itself is a little odd, given that St Andrews is miles away from Aberdeen or am I being naive in my geography? I replied asking for a contact tel nos and no response yet....

If I get one, I will post so anyone interested can follow up if they like, but given that the picture is not of the actual unit and the price is v low, I too suspect some sort of fraud or the engine is not as advertised.

Peter


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: peteracs on 03 January, 2012, 07:06:24 AM
Hi

Ok, had a reply, does this sound familiar?

"Peter, if I could talk on the phone would have done it with you but unfortunately I can not. I was operated on maxillary, now I have a braces in mouth and only if I can breathe a few words. doctors told me that 15-20 days after surgery like this will be the situation. it is a very difficult situation because I go to work every day and can not talk to anyone...but what to do?
So please email me if you have any questions and i will do my best to respond asap
Regards!
Chris"

I have now asked for more photos and any numbers on the engine, will wait and see what happens....

Peter


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: williamcorke on 03 January, 2012, 08:38:12 AM
Hi

Ok, had a reply, does this sound familiar?

"Peter, if I could talk on the phone would have done it with you but unfortunately I can not. I was operated on maxillary, now I have a braces in mouth and only if I can breathe a few words. doctors told me that 15-20 days after surgery like this will be the situation. it is a very difficult situation because I go to work every day and can not talk to anyone...but what to do?
So please email me if you have any questions and i will do my best to respond asap
Regards!
Chris"

I have now asked for more photos and any numbers on the engine, will wait and see what happens....

Peter


The email below was received 4/9/2010, so yes there's a family resemblance...

"William, i have this engine of 6 months...i purchased it for a local project but unfortunatly, from financiar reasons i was forced to cancel this project and now i want to sell this engine.
The engine was tested, it is in perfect order. I attached a picture with the engine number
Please email me if you have any questions...I was operated on maxillary, now I have a braces in mouth and only if I can breathe a few words. doctors told me that 15-20 days after surgery like this will be the situation. it is a very difficult situation because I go to work every day and can not talk to anyone...but what to do?
Thanks!
Allan"


Amazing lack of originality apart from anything else.  Presumably this scammer (or scammers) has a strategy to target areas of specialist interest.  I'd be surprised if they don't have dozens of pieces of bait out there at any one time.  Is it  crime to advertise something for sale that you don't own?


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: rogerelias on 03 January, 2012, 10:25:53 AM
Offer to pay by paypal, and i would bet that he cannot use paypal as his account has a problem, but he can use Western Union, see Michael Wesley post on this forum.  :o


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: peteracs on 03 January, 2012, 10:50:06 AM
Hi

Resemblance and lack of proper English sort of gives it away.

If/when he comes back about the pics, I will ask about payment, ideally getting bank info and collection address..... Paypal does not really help to identify him.

Peter


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: B20B24 on 03 January, 2012, 12:24:08 PM
Presumably this scammer (or scammers) has a strategy to target areas of specialist interest.  I'd be surprised if they don't have dozens of pieces of bait out there at any one time.  Is it  crime to advertise something for sale that you don't own?
[/quote]

On the same craiglist site last time I looked you could have a 250GT engine for £2500 (picture sourced from a Ferrari blog), so yes it is a strategy.

It's a conspiracy to commit fraud, so yes very much a crime (of what use that is I don't know as plod is too busy to worry about such things).


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: B20B24 on 03 January, 2012, 12:57:03 PM
Sorry to be naïve but what sort of grief is possible with selling an engine as I may be selling a low miles fulvia engine which is 'under my bench'best regards richard


Aha. Richard you would not believe me if I told you how much grief I got, ranging from being sued to various threats of unspecified violence from Russian mafiosi (all I hasten to add in writing, much to the interest of Kent police). It seems the buyer of my engine, who was either delusional or spoke no English, and therefore did not understand the words "sold as seen, condition unknown and you must assume requires total rebuild" on my eBay listing, was under the impression, by which hand I know not,  that my engine was a virgin, time warp, factory fresh unit. I even got a signed receipt from the garage that collected and paid for it in new £10 notes (some 5 months after winning the auction) mirroring my eBay description, but it seems when they dismantled it they found it needed a lot of work. What a surprise that must have been for a professional garage dealing in classic cars.

Moral of story:

1. Don't ever sell an old engine built up, but dismantled,  and photograph and inventorise all parts, and
2  Avoid buyers that speak no English, and convince themselves they are buying a pear, when you are in fact selling a strawberry.

As I said, under the bench is the best place, with hindsight.

Clive


 


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: fay66 on 03 January, 2012, 07:15:55 PM
Quote,
It's a conspiracy to commit fraud, so yes very much a crime (of what use that is I don't know as plod is too busy to worry about such things)
Quote,

More like can't be bothered like most things these days  ::)

Brian
8227 8) 
 


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: peteracs on 04 January, 2012, 04:43:27 PM
Hi All

Ok, a little progress towards getting more info.

I asked for both more pictures and any part numbers off the engine as wellas the collection address.

Collection address ignored, but after second email, here are the pictures. Are they new or just recycled? Anyone recognise the engine maybe?

Peter


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: PistonBroke on 04 January, 2012, 05:58:59 PM
Have you taken a look at any metadata on the photos? Might show when the photos were taken.


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: peteracs on 04 January, 2012, 06:30:41 PM
Have you taken a look at any metadata on the photos? Might show when the photos were taken.

Hi

Tried looking at them with exiftool which mentioned Ebay and Imagemagik, but no other info.

If you have any specific application I should try to use let me know.

Peter


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: B20B24 on 04 January, 2012, 08:09:44 PM
Hi All

Ok, a little progress towards getting more info.

I asked for both more pictures and any part numbers off the engine as wellas the collection address.

Collection address ignored, but after second email, here are the pictures. Are they new or just recycled? Anyone recognise the engine maybe?

Peter

Hi Peter

They are all my photos from the eBay listing when I sold the engine - please see other posts.

Clive








Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: peteracs on 04 January, 2012, 10:56:08 PM
Hi Clive

I did suspect they were, will see if I can get an address out of him......

Peter


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: peteracs on 06 January, 2012, 08:48:50 AM
Hi All

Ok, next bit of communication revealed that he preferred not to have cash on collection, but via bank transfer, so asked for collection address and bank info. This is the reply.

chris miron
88 Market St
St Andrews
Fife KY16 9PA
Lloyds TSB Bank
Sort code: 30-80-49
Acc number: 22674560

Looking at the address on Streetview it sort of looks like an Ice Cream Parlour, but not 100%. Anyone know the area/live near there to confirm? Would be surprised if it was for real, but I guess you never know.....

I have queried it and will then ask if a friend can view the engine before payment is sent.

I guess if it does turn out to be false, I could always send the bank info off to one of those very nice Nigerian chaps who are holding all that money for me......

Peter



Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: JohnMillham on 06 January, 2012, 09:03:57 AM
Isn't it time someone reported this bloke to the Trading Standards Office?
Regards, John


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: peteracs on 08 January, 2012, 08:06:57 AM
Hi All

As a final confirmation I had this response to my query about the location be a shop.

"Peter, i understand the confusion. Over the shop are private residences and behind the building there are some garages where is stored the engine"

So just to be 100% about it being a fraud, anyone live in/near St Andrews and willing to call to view the advertised engine?

Peter


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: williamcorke on 08 January, 2012, 03:02:47 PM
Peter, I hope you're pursuing this to wind up or otherwise inconvenience and embarrass the 'seller'.  

I think there is about 1/1000th of a % chance that Clive's 'under a bench' engine found its way to a lock-up in Scotland to be sold for a lot less than it's worth (and was bought for), given what we know of the people he sold it to, and ensuing history.


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: B20B24 on 08 January, 2012, 07:03:01 PM
The same seller is also offering 25+ grands worth of Ferrari engine for £4800

http://aberdeen.craigslist.co.uk/pts/2782463498.html

I believe those pictures and description were lifted from the US eBay site.

Or how about £10,000 worth of Weber 58s for £2400:

http://aberdeen.craigslist.co.uk/pts/2783278080.html

That's the eBay UK site - I know my son sold them on there.

Obviously quite an enterprise this guy has going there in sleepy St Andrew's.

Perhaps we could arrange some reciprocal deal with the Iranians and ship this guy out there to be dealt with.


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: peteracs on 08 January, 2012, 11:53:13 PM
Hi Clive

Just wanted to see how far we could go with it.

Given the range of kit he is offereing, I think it is time to see if the authorities are interested in doing something about it.

I wonder how many folk he has managed to dupe?

Peter


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: Scott on 09 January, 2012, 09:16:28 AM
On the 'craigslist' ad you'll have to stump up £2,500 and arrange transportation from Scotland.

Assuming you live further south there's a bargain to be had in London:
http://london.inetgiant.co.uk/london/addetails/lancia-aurelia-b24-engine-not-flaminia-flavia-b20-2000/3149437 (http://london.inetgiant.co.uk/london/addetails/lancia-aurelia-b24-engine-not-flaminia-flavia-b20-2000/3149437)

Only £2,000 ... save yourself £500!

This one at £2,600 is looking a little steep by comparison:
http://london.classifiedsadd.com/advert/22864-lancia-aurelia-b-engine-not-flaminia-flavia-b.html (http://london.classifiedsadd.com/advert/22864-lancia-aurelia-b-engine-not-flaminia-flavia-b.html)

I think the bloke selling these engines can be totally trusted. There's probably a very good reason for the engine teleporting hundreds of miles. In fact I've just given him all my personal and bank details because the poor chap has funds tied up in a foreign bank he's having trouble moving. I only have to give him a relatively small sum to get a real return. It's almost too good to be true.

 >:(


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: B20B24 on 09 January, 2012, 09:31:35 AM
Hi Peter

Yes it's scary how many people he must have duped. But what do you do about it? - I doubt the Police would be interested, and you'd have the rigmarole of explaining to the Police that it must be fraudulent, and no doubt he operates through stolen identities which makes it complex. These people are a scourge!

Clive







Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: peteracs on 09 January, 2012, 03:30:18 PM
Hi Clive

Well, have emailed back to say that I have a friend who will come and view before payment, should put an end to it I suppose. I have also sent, via a contact form, to inform Consumer Direct, which appears to be a central Consumer complaint dept somewhere in government who then liase with Trading Standards. No idea if I will even get a reply. You are supposed to contact them who will then contact Trading Standards. Did not think direct Police contact was really worth it at this point as should be handled by Trad Standards I think.

Given the widespread nature I would suspect that this is a very widely setup scam with many items and in many low key places.

Just make me wonder again how many folk are daft enough to send that sort of money on spec without some sort of confidence that these people actually have the goods?

Peter


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: peteracs on 09 January, 2012, 08:59:19 PM
Hi All

OK, not the follow up to my email asking to view the engine I expected.

I received a reply saying

'perfect...i'm available anytime during the week...just tell me when you friend would be able to come and we arrange a meeting'

Sooo... Anyone know someone local to St Andrews, who mayor joy going on a wild goose chase?

Peter


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: williamcorke on 12 January, 2012, 08:23:39 PM
Not all cheap Aurelia engines are bogus...

A couple of weeks ago I spotted a B10 engine for sale on an Italian website, described as Flaminia.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ZsbPY-4278Y/Tw8536ltsfI/AAAAAAAADqE/0BP07NGDv8s/s640/b10%252520engine%252520italy%252520jan12%252520a.JPG)

First things first I went through the usual kind of scammer checks - spoke to the seller (and half his family) and exchanged many emails thanks to Google's translate service (must take those lessons before it's too late).

Asking price 1,200 Euros.  Gianluca, the seller, was prepared to box the engine and ship it to the UK for a further 400.

I'd mentioned at the beginning of my correspondence that he had an Aurelia engine despite the ad describing it as a 'Motore lancia flaminia tipo b10', but as the actual purchase got closer I started to worry about how things might play out.  What if Gianluca discovered that it was an Aurelia engine (a very real possibility - any number of people might have seen what I'd seen) after I'd paid but before the engine was sent?  I'd have a contract, but that contract specified Motore Flaminia.  Things could get messy...

So when the seller in one of our final emails to finalise details wrote:

"Se tutto ok ti invio i miei dati bancari con tutti i codici di riferimento per fare bonifico internazionale con causale ACQUISTO MOTORE LANCIA FLAMINIA DA PRIVATO.

Il prezzo è buono e come tu sai il motore è uguale a quello della LANCIA AURELIA.
"

which Google tells me means;

"If everything ok I send you my bank details with all the reference codes to make international money order with causal PURCHASE FROM PRIVATE MOTOR LANCIA Flaminia.

The price is good and as you know the engine is equal to that of the Lancia Aurelia.
".

(or something like that!) I cracked.  

I wrote back explaining why, from the evidence of the photo the engine was Aurelia - the serial number, valve covers nut on top not round the side, circular casting hole for dynamo etc., and saying I was still interested in buying it but wanted everything out in the open.

4 days later I'd not heard anything, so I emailed again.  Turns out a dealer turned up and bought all three engines in the picture above (it was via the Aprilia engine that I found the Aurelia/Flaminia one) for more than the asking price.

Hey ho.

If you're wondering about the paint on the engines, it seems they have spent the past 40 years as part of the equipment at a technical school, used as teaching aids.


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: B20B24 on 12 January, 2012, 08:34:41 PM
Hhhmm. Annoying indeed!


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: Parisien on 12 January, 2012, 09:15:44 PM
Had a similar thing happen me with an Italian seller, though not for anything as wonderful as an engine, my cheque got delayed over Xmas, it arrived yesterday, he'd sold the items 1 week ago to a cash caller.

P


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: LanciAlan on 13 January, 2012, 12:56:31 AM
This one (for sale in Italy) is probably Flaminia so - its nuts are round the side ...

(http://www.matulliauto.net/image_files_epoca/206FOTO1.jpg)

It is part of a job lot, unpriced, that also includes Fulvia and earlier Aprilia/Appia V4s, some with gearboxes, a Flaminia transaxle and Gamma mechanicals.

(http://www.matulliauto.net/image_files_epoca/206FOTO5.jpg)

(http://www.matulliauto.net/image_files_epoca/206FOTO9.jpg)

(http://www.matulliauto.net/image_files_epoca/206FOTO6.jpg)

The three-branch manifold in the last picture had me flummoxed for a while ....


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: JohnMillham on 13 January, 2012, 09:02:31 AM
No sign of an Aprilia motor in the photos, but is the one with the gearbox behind the Flaminia transaxle from an Artena? I wonder if it would squeeze into an Augusta bodyshell?
 Regards, John


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: Sebastien on 13 January, 2012, 10:17:14 AM
The engine behind the Flaminia transaxle is more likely from an Ardea!

Sébastien


Title: Re: B24 engine for sale
Post by: JohnMillham on 13 January, 2012, 11:36:38 AM
Yes Sebastian, you are probably right. It would explain the long gearbox!
Regards, John