Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Aurelia => Topic started by: williamcorke on 01 December, 2011, 09:56:47 AM



Title: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 01 December, 2011, 09:56:47 AM
Some of you might know that I've had an Aurelia B10 for a while and that it's been 'stuck' with a body/paint specialist since 2007.  Well today I'm going to collect it.  Not under entirely ideal circumstances as the specialist in question is closing down.  I spent an hour there yesterday sorting to the chaos to try and make sure that none of my B10 bits have been lost.

The main missing items yesterday were both windscreens and their trims.  Eeek!  Thank goodness they turned-up this morning, so I'm off with the trailer to collect the car, screens, and anything else I can track down.

There's a page on my Aurelia blog about this car which has a few pictures on it (it has been painted, quite well I think).  I have uploaded more than 1,700 pictures of the body restoration to Picasa, which some of you might find interesting, useful as reference or perhaps as a cure for insomnia.

Links to the Picasa photo albums are at the bottom of this page:
http://b20no2959.wordpress.com/about/b10-2283/ (http://b20no2959.wordpress.com/about/b10-2283/)


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 01 December, 2011, 10:26:40 AM
Looks great in the original grey paint and nice to see an early car with the wing semaphores, do you know up to which chassis number these were fitted?


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 01 December, 2011, 03:25:59 PM
Looks great in the original grey paint and nice to see an early car with the wing semaphores, do you know up to which chassis number these were fitted?

I'm not sure what the last car to have semaphores fitted was, no.  My car had later wings fitted for some reason, but the taped-over wiring for the semaphores was still sitting there poked through the grommet/hole in the A-post/inner wing; so I'm pretty sure that the car would have originally had them fitted.

The other lighting question that I had to make a decision on was whether to have the separate indicator/sidelight below the headlights.  Earliest cars didn't have these and I like the clean look, so the holes in the wings were filled.  Easy enough to add the lights later if I change my mind.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 01 December, 2011, 08:00:31 PM
William,

Had a quick run through of your albums........boy was that a labour of love and devotion.

Ball park as to number of hours it took to do body?

It certainly looked pretty bad in parts!


P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 02 December, 2011, 12:05:52 AM
William,

Had a quick run through of your albums........boy was that a labour of love and devotion.

Ball park as to number of hours it took to do body?

It certainly looked pretty bad in parts!


P

How many hours?  I might have to plead the 5th amendment there...  The invoices exist, so if I care to tot them up a total number of hours charged will appear. What would the total be if I were to do this (I'm not going to); at least 800, probably more.

The body didn't look bad when I got the car, and the floorpans (for example) didn't need and have had no work to them at all.  Quite a large proportion of the time spent was in rectifying the bodges of an abortive attempt at restoration in about 1967.  I have the Swedish history of the car, which was in Italy for 2-3 years before being imported to Sweden where it was taken off the road in the late '60s.  So the first mile I drive in it will be first time it's been driven since then.

It's takes love and dedication to resurrect a saloon car after 40 years stuck in a barn, for sure.

A lot more work to do but you could more or less describe it as the home straight now, albeit a Roman Road of a straight.  The Via Aurelia perhaps.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 02 December, 2011, 10:15:56 PM
B10 - still on trailer - is now in 'back-up barn', which has a sorry history of bird lime attacks on cars.  Not ideal for a car with new paint, or any other really for that matter.

So I have (ingeniously if I say so myself) rigged a large tarpaulin over the B10 which should keep the blinkin' pigeons away when they're in that sort of mood, which seems to be most of the time as far as I can tell.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vwV_6jpw3I8/TtlLCtqAAPI/AAAAAAAADpY/59akie5AIhE/s640/windowless%252520b10%252520and%252520brown stuff-shield.jpg?gl=GB)

The second picture shows a neighboring car that hasn't been so lucky and so has more deposits on it than a under-priced flat in Knightsbridge. By the time the 750B is removed for restoration it will truly be 'barn-fresh'.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-lsxQGz7cxs0/TtlLCrBq8kI/AAAAAAAADpU/q1Z02B0GLB4/s640/b10%252520and%252520company.jpg?gl=GB)

Now that I have the B10 back, I have been making lists (shopping, work) and really can't wait to get on with re-assembly.  A lot of mechanical parts have been refurbished while the body was away, with the help of (mainly) Peter Harding and Tim Burrett.  I will have quite a few questions for the forum as I problem-solve my way through the usual Aurelia complexities.  By the time the car is done I should be better equipped to sort out the SIV B20...


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 02 December, 2011, 11:51:50 PM
Love the pics William....very atmospheric.......hope the rebuild goes well


P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: the.cern on 03 December, 2011, 08:13:22 AM
That must be so great to at last see the B10 'back home'. I must agree with Frank, the photos are very atmospheric, you are so fortunate to have such spaces in which to work.

Please keep up regular posts on the re-assembly, I'm hoping to learn a lot for my B20.

Good luck and best wishes,

                                   Andy


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 03 December, 2011, 09:46:16 AM
Yes it's great to have lots of space, though old barns are impossible to keep clean, so I don't try much.  McLaren it aint...

(http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/iipcache/3124.jpg)

The other factor to be wary of is the old car lover's version of Parkinson and Boyles laws, which states that the number of cars expands to fill the space available.  This can lead to all kinds of complications, but is a nice problem to have, most of the time.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 06 December, 2011, 10:56:37 PM
Quick question about paint finishes.

I'm about to refit steering box and suspension / brake reservoir to the B10.  Both seem to have been finished originally in black paint.  I've sometimes seen them in unpainted aluminium - which does show the nice castings off - but what is correct?

Assuming black is correct, what finish; satin / gloss / semi-gloss?

There's a B10 for sale in Belgium at the moment that has a chassis number quite close to mine - it's 2221.  Seems very original.  No trafficators...  On this car the reservoir (seen on the left in the photo below) is unpainted:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vw7RCm584wI/Tt6YBD8jekI/AAAAAAAADps/tCHcYL8M40M/s533/150072.jpg)

And here's another one that's unpainted:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-I1S2sEBm1hY/Tt6c6rJTH5I/AAAAAAAADp0/BLfnkfrw2NA/s350/eng2.jpg)

Whereas, here's one from a '51 car that's painted black.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-jVS5dUP87kM/Tt6dDsbI2rI/AAAAAAAADp8/O_7-lG_6yCw/s640/LANCIA%252520AURELIA%252520B10%25252051%252520%2525285%252529.JPG)



Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: ColinMarr on 07 December, 2011, 12:33:51 AM
I think black satin finish is correct as per original, but drips of brake fluid very quickly make a mess of the paint and that's why most have been stripped back to bare aluminium. If you want it black, I suggest you use some magic paint that is resistant to normal brake-fluid, or use silicone fluid. If you choose the latter you had better check with the experts that the seals that you are using are OK with silicone fluid - I believe some aren't.

Colin


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 07 December, 2011, 09:06:54 AM
In my experience the offending brake fluid which damages the satin black paint usually comes from the seal around the plunger having slightly overfilled the reservoir. This seal which I think  is either rubber or felt becomes damaged over time and so before painting the reservoir I would suggest spending some time trying to improve this seal. Not always totally successful but worth a try.
Chris


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 04 January, 2012, 07:47:08 AM
Looks great in the original grey paint and nice to see an early car with the wing semaphores, do you know up to which chassis number these were fitted?
According to a technical bulletin published by Lancia (AST Sketch 1211) in June 1965, the early B10 / B21 wiring diagram that shows trafficator/semaphore and front sidelights within the headlights, applied up to chassis 3355 for the B10 and 1038 for the B21, so this setup is correct for my car.  

Found this in the electrical section of the indespensible LMC Aurelia workshop manual; I should read it more thoroughly, but have been immersed in the Ricambi / Tavola and lists for the past 2 weeks trying to figure out difference fastener specifications.  Will post on this at some point.


Title: Re: B10*2283 - boot seal question
Post by: williamcorke on 31 January, 2012, 10:06:39 PM
I have two possible boot seals.  One has a simple rectangular cross-section, the same as a B20 (or at least the later ones) and the other is a 'V' profile.  The 'V' seal is, if you compress it to close the top of the 'V', more or less the same width and height in cross-section as the rectangular item.  Both made of the same black foam material.

Anyone know what's correct on an earlyish B10?

It looks like the 'V' would possibly do the job better than the rectangle - would be glued to the boot-lid on the seal's long side.   Not sure if the open side of the V would point towards the inside or outside of the car though...

If it helps I could photograph and measure....

If the V isn't for this application, then what is it?!


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 08 February, 2012, 06:41:31 PM
The Berlina now has its own blog http://b102283.wordpress.com/ (http://b102283.wordpress.com/).  I thought it probably deserved that.  A few posts so far and a couple of 'pages' which I'm planning to add according to the parts Tavola so that they have more chance of being useful as reference.

News today is that Elvezio Esposito has made a new headlining, but that he's not sure he will be making any more as they are very hard work to hand-stitch!

(http://elvezioblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/cielo-lancia-aurelia-b-21-elvezio-esposito-blog_.jpg?w=584&h=312)


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 08 February, 2012, 07:17:50 PM
William, yet more good news, its a treat to see a berlina model being restored as well as the  plethora of coupes over the last decade.

The encyclopedic-like volumes of photos will prove invaluable in the coming months, and for that can I thank you very much in advance.

P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 24 December, 2013, 08:21:51 PM
William, can I ask how are things going with the B10?

P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 24 December, 2013, 11:52:34 PM
Frank, thanks for asking.

I am hoping to get going again on on putting the car back together in the New Year. Will update the forum with progress as and when it occurs.

Best,
W


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 10 April, 2016, 06:34:02 PM
Well it is the New Year, a New Year-ish, just 2 years later than hoped for. Never mind, life got in the way but I am now getting going again with the B10. The workshop has been sorted (no more leaks, more light and space) and I expect to be asking for the forum's knowledge with some regularity.

This weekend I made a start on testing electrical connections and components so that all these systems are known to work before interior and engine are put back in place. Some but not all of the loom will have to be remade.

One particular challenge is the self-cancelling mechanism for the indicators (trafficators at the front). There is a mechanism on the steering column with a rotating collar that acts as a comutator for 3 lobes attached to a bracket (also attached to a part of the steering column (sleeve) that doesn't rotate. These parts can be seen in the Tavola below:
- 39 is the collar
- 8 the lobes that make contact with the collar

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RKtXFYrq-jw/Vwqcf24oUGI/AAAAAAAAE-c/rbh5crmUtBUsBII5PJnM1_UM9jNn2pL-wCCo/s640-Ic42/Tav_45.jpg)

Moving on to the electrical diagram, these same parts can be seen at '18'.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-YdqaooqMV8s/VwqX7S_WCII/AAAAAAAAE-U/URJRYT0f_9o0lzPQJF3qQ3NcdS5CxhDwwCCo/s512-Ic42/Wiring.jpg)

One puzzle to me is that the dash switch itself doesn't seem to have any mechanism that would allow it to automatically return. I'm presuming that signal stops when cancelled though the switch remains in an 'on' position.

So, does anyone here know exactly how this system works?

Perhap more importantly, does anyone have a spare one of part '8' from the tavola - the 3-lobed item. Mine is missing, perhaps removed when the car was converted to a non-trafficator system at some point in the 50s.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 13 April, 2016, 11:39:55 PM
So here I am replying to my own post... better than no-one taking an interest I suppose.

Peter Harding has shed some light on the self-cancelling system.

The indicator switch should be of a type that always sits 'at the centre'; in other words you activate the indicators by moving it to left or right but it then immediately returns to the centre position. The switch holds the contact electro-magnetically until released by the mechanism on the steering column. So my switch must be a non-correct (period) replacement, perhaps Ardea, as it clicks into the L and R positions and needs to be manually moved back to the centre. More parts to search for.

Peter tells me that the 3rd series B20 has a similar system (the switch at least, though the column mechanism is different).

Jonathan Angell has an earlier B10 than mine which has a different system again, where a 'clockwork' timer is wound up by the movement of the switch. The clockwork returns the switch to the centre 'off' position after about 20 seconds. The entire system is within the switch itself so is unrelated to steering wheel position or movement.

I've written to Enrico at Cavalitto to see if he can help with my missing bits (now including the dash switch).


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: brian on 14 April, 2016, 07:21:58 PM
My later B10 (Late 1952) has the all or nothing switch which needs manually centering and cancelling. The switch certainly looked original but the bakolite/plastic material broke a few years ago and I remade the lever in nylon.
The clockwork indicator switch certainly does exist as I bought a unit to use on my Augusta but I recently did take it off and fit an original switch which is just like the B10 one but alloy lever instead of plastic. The clockwork one flipped in a plane parallel with the dash rather than at 90 degrees if you understand what I mean......

I certainly would like self cancelling indicators as I do forget often to do so.

Brian


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 21 April, 2016, 05:11:55 PM
Indicator mystery solved and parts found and bought. Result.

Cavalitto had the bits I needed;
- a dash switch that returns to the centre position by spring once electrically released by the steering column mechanism
- the 3 lobed commutator

Not cheap but price happily paid!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Vc3ax-f2FP0/VxkI3Sazt8I/AAAAAAAAE_E/tHvY-TT9IEUsRGG_MegguoYqglZxnCMIgCCo/s720-Ic42/IMG_20160421_185332.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-a86u_ov46UQ/VxkJymbyp8I/AAAAAAAAE_M/wlw_XYKTieoanSfe_rqJCuuXuwG-ZEOMQCCo/s640-Ic42/B10-91105.JPG)


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 21 April, 2016, 05:44:19 PM
Result William, good to see its been resolved, albeit at a hefty price (?).

P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 22 April, 2016, 11:08:42 AM
Given the rarity of these parts and the fact that some of them are apparently also B24 fittings, I think the prices were actually pretty reasonable.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 23 April, 2016, 07:40:31 PM
A bit more progress today.

The programme (with Tony Baxter's help) was to check all the wiring and electrical systems and make up new loom where necessary (for completeness or safety).

As so often, progress involved taking more things apart... after a while it became clear that taking the dashboard off - it stayed in position while the body and paint were done - was going to make access to the critical part of the loom between dash and bulkhead much, much easier.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kwjBxQYS8G4/VxvKiTExt7I/AAAAAAAAFAM/CmDJnLdGqvAfwWKJCm9cc0-qxlvHBtuXgCCo/s640/IMG_0162.JPG)

Turns out it was just as well, as some of the wiper mechanism need attention which would have been impossible with the dash in place.

The relay unit and end box (probably the wrong terms) seem to have been fastened to the inner windscreen panel (the car is double skinned here) by some kind of rivet. There is no access from the other side, so that makes sense. These rivets have 'popped' leaving the boxes loose and moving around. Here's a photo of the left-hand one.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fAlq3hsL84w/VxvKnoi-nmI/AAAAAAAAFAM/_22VFLeoADgl3Z1OZ8VUCOjlL65ZXckOACCo/s640/IMG_0163.JPG)

The rivets are either side on the lobes.

Do any of you have any experience or advice about how best to replace these so that the boxes (by then suitably cleaned and lubricated - I presume that excess friction in the system was probably the main cause of the rivets coming loose) can be re-fastened?


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 23 April, 2016, 07:43:27 PM
While behind the dash today I discovered a couple of souvenirs of the car's years on Sweden (c. '55 - 2002 when I bought it. Off the road since c. '67). The nougat wrapper was under the trim in the glove box and the post office receipt (?) was folded to pack out the wiper motor to stand in for a missing rubber washer!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-t5is8OVapaA/VxvNpxexBUI/AAAAAAAAFAY/h67gkQun9HU78mfKhrsA8EFcheZzrqRKgCCo/s640/IMG_0159.JPG)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-q1ERTUBwRhg/VxvNqypiabI/AAAAAAAAFAc/-NCf1fl34ggz5z5wufW4U1tiR3FqqKSRQCCo/s640/IMG_0160.JPG)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Q_utbfmEElY/VxvNrzaA4nI/AAAAAAAAFAg/A_aRYOzWyR4KEezVmITJsXTalFgnFzxIQCCo/s640/IMG_0161.JPG)


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: simonandjuliet on 23 April, 2016, 08:06:57 PM
I love these little pieces of history !

Ref the indicators, a bit late to comment, but I think there is some crossover with the early Appia system as well. I am just about to embark on mine so I will know more later ....


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: SanRemo78 on 23 April, 2016, 09:21:48 PM


Turns out it was just as well, as some of the wiper mechanism need attention which would have been impossible with the dash in place.


The rivets are either side on the lobes.

Do any of you have any experience or advice about how best to replace these so that the boxes (by then suitable cleaned and lubricated - I presume that excess friction in the system was probably the main cause of the rivets coming loose) can be re-fastened?

How about drilling out the remains of the rivets from the lobes, if this allows the wiper mechanism to drop out you replace the rivets with Rivnuts and then bolt the wiper mechanism back in place later?

Potential downside is that the drilled out head are going to fall into the double skinned area and if they don't drop out might rattle around for years to come? WaxOyl might trap the remnants though?

Guy


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 24 April, 2016, 08:14:08 PM
... replace the rivets with Rivnuts and then bolt the wiper mechanism back in place later?


Guy, great idea. I had never heard of Rivnuts but - after some research - they would obviously be incredibly useful for lots of applications.

However...

This morning, I got the drill out to try drilling out the loose rivets and (thank goodness) discovered before I'd butchered the original part through ignorance that they are not rivets but locating lugs.

The reason for the looseness was the chromed nuts on the outside of the car not having been fully tightened. The wiper gearboxes are located by these lugs (see photo) but until the wiper fixings are screwed down on the outer bulkhead the lugs will not be securely in position.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y0R80Oji_IM/Vx0nILQFxWI/AAAAAAAAFA4/hIdYT93olAAtl74nlxsFVUInKuqdIbasACCo/s640/IMG_0171.JPG)

It happens that this gearbox (one of two - one for each wiper) was seized. The system is, I think, made by SWF who also supplied wiper systems in the '50s to Porsche for the 356 and Alfa Romeo for early Giuliettas (fitted to my '55 Sprint). The gearboxes are not cheap. Porsche parts suppliers ask about £150 each for them.

So I applied some gentle force to the lever and, thankfully, the thing freed up. It's unfortunate that the box is riveted together and so can't be taken apart to clean and re-grease parts or find out what's wrong. The action on this (recently seized) 'box is a bit rough compared to the other one. Has anyone else here taken the step of splitting one of these? I've seen threads online about fibre gearwheels being remade or even 3d printed.

Anyway, there's a moral here about not rushing to hastily in with power tools (or hammers and chisels for that matter).


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: frankxhv773t on 25 April, 2016, 12:30:26 PM
Would it do any harm to drill a tiny hole and squirt aerosol white lith-grease in I wonder?


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Niels Jonassen on 25 April, 2016, 02:04:19 PM
When I restored our Aurelia many years ago I simply drilled out the rivets, cleaned and greased the inside and assembled it again with small bolts and nuts. It has worked ever since. Incidentally, the gears are made of mazak and do not last very well. So I made a new set of gears with a hacksaw and a file. It took some time, but it works, albeit being a bit sloppy. It may be a better idea to buy a new set of gears - steel - from Omicron. I did that with one of the boxes. Good luck.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: the.cern on 25 April, 2016, 02:55:28 PM
Niels way is a tried and trusted way, I did the same thing. I had the first set of steel gears made up for the now defunct Aurelia Consortium and they worked well. I think Omicron may well be on the third issue of gears by now!!!

Frank, I love the idea of the squirty lithium grease ... One I will try to remember for future problems!!

                                Andy


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 25 April, 2016, 08:08:29 PM
Thank you Neils and Andy. I think I shall dismantle the notchy 'box. I have a strong suspicion that it will fail in use if left as is and I don't fancy taking the dashboard off again once it's properly assembled. Would be a lot quicker the second time though.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 12 November, 2017, 07:24:45 PM
Only 18 months since the last post, I'm improving  :o

Despite the lack of posts, I have been making substantial progress over the past few months. A new loom has been made-up and fitted in situ - a job that was holding up a lot (most) of the rest of the project. I had thought that I'd keep the original loom with some repairs where needed, but in the end it was clear that starting from scratch with the wiring diagram and some nice black braided wire (but with modern spec internals) bought from the excellent https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/ was going to be easier as well as safer in the long run.

I'm currently working on the transmission and brakes and have a question that I'm hoping someone here will be able to help with, relating to the the three rubber 'spider' couplings from the propshaft.

Two of these (on the car since the early '60s when it was taken off the road) are the same as the modern replacements but the third has aluminium dowels in each of the lobes' holes (see attached photos).

I guess that these dowels would have the effect of stiffening the couplings, reducing driveline 'shunt'. Does anyone have another explanation? Have any of you seen this before and could it be 'factory'? The stiffened spider was at the engine/flywheel end of the propshaft, where torque effects would (I suppose) be greatest.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: lancianut666 on 13 November, 2017, 11:24:49 AM
Looking at your picture the modded coupling looks more likely to fail...
Clarkey


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 13 November, 2017, 03:50:44 PM
Looking at your picture the modded coupling looks more likely to fail...
Clarkey

Interesting observation - do you mean because of the cracks showing on the reinforced coupling? It seems as if this one might be older than the other two, which show less signs of age in their surface condition.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: GG on 13 November, 2017, 04:11:35 PM
Just a guess here.... that the original ones had the holes to allow a bit of deformation under extreme conditions. Someone then thought to "tighten" up the response, and came up with the idea of the plugs (not a bad idea, but is it really necessary?). You can get new spiders, probably not a bad thing. But to answer your question directly, not seen this before - although there may be others who are familiar with this mod. Seems a bit overkill for the Aurelia drivetrain - I'd want the cush.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: JohnMillham on 13 November, 2017, 04:35:44 PM
I did that back in the 1960s, when I had a couple of Aurelias, but I used corks. It successfully took up the drive more smoothly and seemed to work OK. I remember that Harry approved.
Regards, John


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 19 November, 2017, 06:05:03 PM
2 questions arising from work this weekend (during which headlining was fitted and door seal fitting started - what a pig of a job that is).

1.
Can anyone tell me what kind of bush should go around the steering column where it goes through the bulkhead? There is a gap between the bulkhead and the reinforcing plate bolted to the engine bay side through which the steering column goes, which looks as if it might seat a (perhaps) felt bush/seal.

What should be there?
Are they available?

I can make something up but a better idea of what I'm replacing / replicating would be helpful.

2.
How is the brake pipe from reservoir to m/c routed? Anyone got an original B10 (or B21) they could get this info from (photo of same)? Does the pipe go through the lower, bigger holes in the rear engine mount bracket?

Thanks in advance.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 20 November, 2017, 01:49:32 PM
William, some photos for you, the bush around the steering column appears to be felt.
The photos of the brake lines are from a B21, which rather fortunately from the point of view of taking photos, does not have the engine in at the moment.
Hope these of of help.
Ade.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 20 November, 2017, 03:42:34 PM
Thanks Ade, exactly what I needed.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 26 November, 2017, 10:52:06 PM
Visited an even earlier B10 than mine this afternoon - some of you will know the car I'm sure.

Photos below show the same 90 degree banjo arrangement on this car as on the B21 that Ade kindly send pic's of. The B10 photos also show how the pipe is routed under the wiring cover (which explains the hole on the reservoir-side of the this cover.

So, can anyone help me to find a banjo of the correct type - that is to say, with a female M14, 1.5mm pitch union for the pipe to the M/C?



Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: simonandjuliet on 27 November, 2017, 08:48:27 AM
I bought some on eBay recently -but not this size - but lots available - try this for a complete set

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbo-Banjo-Bolt-Kit-M14-x-1-5mm-to-6AN-Turbo-Coolant-Garrett-GT28R-GT28R-GT30R/253206227847?epid=0&hash=item3af4446b87:g:MYIAAOSw44BYl-ae (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbo-Banjo-Bolt-Kit-M14-x-1-5mm-to-6AN-Turbo-Coolant-Garrett-GT28R-GT28R-GT30R/253206227847?epid=0&hash=item3af4446b87:g:MYIAAOSw44BYl-ae)


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 27 November, 2017, 09:04:47 AM
Thanks Simon. I did quite a lot of google/ebay etc. searching, but can't find any fitting in this size with a female fitting. The one in your link is male (as you know). Still drawing a blank and hoping someone on the forum might have the right part on a shelf somewhere...


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 08 December, 2017, 07:26:01 PM
Brake question.

I was missing two of the 'snail' cam brake shoe adjusters but have (thank you Chris G) been supplied with two backplates complete with with snail assemblies.

However. it is very hard to see where the pins that go through nut and shaft of the snail bolt are situated. I tried to drill one out. Thought I had done so... tried to unscrew the nut and... snapped the end of the bolt where it is weakened by the pin hole.

Does anyone have any experience of this job or bright ideas as to how I can remove two of the remaining 3 assemblies without damaging them?

Thanks in advance


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 09 December, 2017, 10:07:15 AM
Having thought some more about the brake snail question, I am planning to split the nuts. It will be a relatively simple job to drill some replacements for pins and this way I should be able to preserve the easily breakable bolt on the back of the snail-shaped cam itself. Will report back.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Dikappa on 09 December, 2017, 11:41:43 AM
I had exactly the same problem.  In the end I drilled out the damaged bolt from the 'snail' , and welded in the shaft+thread cut to size from a suitable fine threaded M8 bolt out of the junk box.  If you do get the pins out you best keep the nuts allocated to their 'snail' as otherwise they won't fir together...


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 31 December, 2017, 07:35:37 AM
New Year Aga cooking. B10 wheels...



Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 31 December, 2017, 09:30:19 AM
That looks good enough to eat Will, somewhat bizarrely my body/paint guy has chosen to work on my wheels in recent times rather than put paint on the B12 ??? ??? ??? ::) ::) ::)

P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 02 January, 2018, 08:09:32 PM
Thanks Frank.

I'm nervous of these rolled-rim wheels as the rims rust from the inside and can fail as a result. Any holes in the rolled section of the rims is a sure sign that they have corroded from the inside out and so are dangerously weakened. Before perforation is obvious, they can rattle as flakes of rust rattle around within the rim... an audible warning sign.

I have 8 correct wheels for the B10 (had nine but gave one to Jonathan Angell for his car as a spare) but even so I am struggling to find 4 (ideally 5) that have no sounds of loose flakes. Several of the worst ones have perforated rims.

Does anyone have any advice on how the weakened wheels could be restored, or are they scrap?


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 02 January, 2018, 08:17:29 PM
Questions about rear lever arm dampers - see photos below.

1. what is the little tab seen at the bottom right of the first photo? The parts book isn't informative. It looks as if it might be an adjuster mechanism. I'm hoping one of you will know.

2. there is the following stamped onto the top of the right rear (offside in the UK) damper pictured here:  L 2430. To what does the 'L' refer. Presumably not 'left' as that would be 'S' in Italy...



Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 02 January, 2018, 09:23:44 PM
These beautiful Lancia made dampers for early pre-De Dion Aurelias are fully adjustable for bump and rebound.
You should find they are stamped D(destra)  and S (sinistra) and they were all numbered. I have found that they have a tendency to leak a little around the output shaft as the seal is a felt one which ends up holding grit etc which in turn scores the shaft. All I have ever done is clean up the shaft and the felt seal and then use the 'witches brew' mixture of oil/brake fluid recommended in the Aurelia manual.
Chris


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 02 January, 2018, 09:30:11 PM
William,
I think you are quite right to be nervous of hollow rim wheels which exhibit any signs of corrosion including flakes rattling inside the rim. I have never repaired perforated rims as the steel has always seemed too thin to weld properly. If in doubt please don't use them.
I used the centres from wheels which I considered to be unsafe to have 15" rims ( Rover and Flavia) welded to them for racing (to give a wider choice of tyre).
Good hollow rim wheels are a bit like hens teeth these days.
Chris 


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: the.cern on 02 January, 2018, 09:46:28 PM
I am watching this one with interest!!! I have yet to address the wheel issue, but thank you Chris for the tip re Rover and Flavia rims!!!


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 02 January, 2018, 10:47:19 PM
These beautiful Lancia made dampers for early pre-De Dion Aurelias are fully adjustable for bump and rebound.

Thank you Chris for both your responses.

Follow-up questions about rear dampers:
- how are the bump/rebound adjusted?
- where are the D/S stamps found (I've not been able to see them, though there is a 'B' stamp on top on the other side to the stamping number and 'L' I mentioned before)?
- I read through the workshop manual but failed to find the 'witches brew' reference and have bought some Penrite damper oil http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/shocker-oil-1 (http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/shocker-oil-1) for them to ingest. Is that a bad idea?

Best,
William


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 03 January, 2018, 08:42:50 AM
To get FIA papers on my racing 3rd series B20, I had to fit original Lancia lever arms like those in William's photos. These dampers are mounted to the body of the car and are each connected to the swinging arms by two Suspension rods/levers which themselves have Silent blocs fitted.
I found the lever arm dampers to be quite soft but perfect for road work ( although I had stiffer front and rear springs which considerably affected the ride on rough roads) but I eventually returned to using a Lancia modification to use  adjustable telescopics at the rear which gave better damping for circuit work.
Every Aurelia I have ever had which was using original Lancia lever arms dampers was found to have badly worn Silent Blocs and in a couple of cases the Suspension rods/levers were found to be bent through being adjusted incorrectly thus limiting the travel of the rear suspension.
The recommended oil for these dampers according to Paul Mayo's excellent manual was 70% Mobiloil Arctic or Shell/Essolube 20W and 30% Mobiloil Shock absorber light or Donax A1 or AMM LR.
I have disposed of 3 pairs of these lever arms dampers and each one was stamped either S or D exactly as the remaining pair in the attached  photo which  I have put aside for my 1st Series B20 ( which is currently fitted with a different make  of lever arm damper  which work well and don't leak).
Chris


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: stanley sweet on 03 January, 2018, 09:45:23 AM
I'm not sure exactly what is meant by 'rolled rim' but it sounds like a hollow metal tube around the rim. Could a good set of wheels be waxoiled in this cavity through a small hole and plugged somehow?


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Niels Jonassen on 03 January, 2018, 10:46:00 AM
The rolled rims are known to corrode from, the inside. However, I have found that the rolled edge did not corrode. The corrosion was along a line further down the rim, in line with the hole for the tube valve. I suspect that water gets in at the hole and then seeps along the rim. After having two wheels split I did like Chris and had new rims welded on to the wheel. In order to keep the original tyre dimension of 400mm I chose wheels from a CitroŽn B11 - in Britain called Light Fifteen. They have a slightly deeper section than the original rims, so the edge of the wheel has to be bent slightly in. It is a tricky operation as you will obviously want the wheel to run true. But it can be done successfully. You will of course loose originality, but till to day only one person has spotted the change. Most important is to have wheels you can trust. 


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 03 January, 2018, 11:34:11 AM
Thanks again Chris,

I have replaced the silent blocs in the rods/levers, but have been wondering about how to set them up. I couldn't find anything in PMayo's manual about this. The splined input shaft to the damper seems to have about 120 degrees of rotation (from full compression to full droop), so setting the top arm on the splines in the right position must be critical.

And this is probably a stupid or ignorant question, but if the damper rod/lever doesn't act as a droop limit to the rear suspension, then what does?

On the question of adjustment, I've been poring on Tav. 54 and am wondering if the adjustment you referred to earlier is performed by removing the big covers at each end of the damper body, to get at the bolts behind. If this is the case, how can you tell which is bump and which rebound, and what direction to you turn them to stiffen or loosen (clockwise to increase damping, anti-c' to decrease?)?



Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 03 January, 2018, 11:40:49 AM
Thank Niels,
I think I prefer the idea of a rim that would allow me to continue to use Michelin Xs, so the CitroŽn option sounds interesting. There is a man local to me who works on steel wheels - welding, replacing rims etc., so I think I might well get my 4 spare wheels re-rimmed. Were you B11 rims from old wheels or have they been remanufactured?

Andy, Cavalitto is now (I expect you've spotted) advertising 4th series wheels, with the correct centres but non-rolled rims.
https://www.oldlanciaspares.com/1234-lancia-AURELIAA-sparepart-wheel-serie-3-4.php (https://www.oldlanciaspares.com/1234-lancia-AURELIAA-sparepart-wheel-serie-3-4.php)


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: LANCIA on 03 January, 2018, 12:07:47 PM
Buongiorno chris , avrei bisogno del tuo contatto  e- mail.   Grazie    (   Da Lancia  LMC)


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 03 January, 2018, 02:10:47 PM
The rolled rims are known to corrode from, the inside. However, I have found that the rolled edge did not corrode. The corrosion was along a line further down the rim, in line with the hole for the tube valve. I suspect that water gets in at the hole and then seeps along the rim.

For those who are interested... the cross-sectional drawing below (credit to GG's Lanciaaurelia.info website) shows the construction of the rolled-rim wheels. Niels is right, in my experience, that the corrosion starts in the well of the rim where the rolled-over rim is welded back onto itself. Water sits between tyre and steel with the usual destructive results. Abrasion between tyre and wheels helps remove the protective paint layer.

You could drill, as Stanley suggests, waxoyl and fill the filling hole. But given the kind of usage our cars get, I suspect that a (perhaps) bi or triennial removal of tyres to inspect rims and repaint if necessary would be adequate. Or a longer gap if you don't go out in the rain. Or wash your car!



Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: GG on 03 January, 2018, 02:21:37 PM
On the wheel rims - One set of rolled rims here is without corrosion, but with webs slightly out of true (from years of carrying weight). Its hard to true them up - had the same problem years ago with Appia wheels, and had to hunt for new ones. For the Aurelia, found a set of Borrani steel wheels, almost identical to factory originals, still weighing 18#, but  seem a bit more stout in the center. So check for true before going too far on corrosion or re-rimming. I seem to recall something like needing around .010 out of alignment as a good limit, and the stock wheels were coming in around .030-.050", although those numbers might be off....

On the shocks - wasn't aware of any adjustment to them for rebound or dampening, just clean them, put in new felt (I think that was done but it was more than 10 yrs ago...), and new silentblocks . One had a slight clunk, needing a new silent block, and then had a bit of internal noise, that went away with more use. Have been quite happy with the factory originals, although they make a wee bit of "parts moving" noise if there are a lot of bumps. Nothing distracting, just to know.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Niels Jonassen on 03 January, 2018, 02:30:54 PM
I used old CitroŽn wheels for the Aurelia. It gave the machine shop some trouble because the rims tended to X when removed from the wheel. However, they got it right, and I was quite impressed when we balanced the wheels with the tyres fitted.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 03 January, 2018, 06:27:14 PM
Can only see one for sale currently in France , though not sure if this is indeed a pre-war wheel of if different from post-war wheels

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jante-TRACTION-CITROEN-avant-guerre-1934-36/302581253144?hash=item46733f8418:g:Yk0AAOSwAC1aIZOx

Though this one looks more correct (from my memory circa 1995!), so erring towards the wheel above being more likely to be pre-war.

https://www.citroen-traction-avant.com/en/shop/article/200.001/Rim_fully_closed

Job lot in Paris at a decent price!!

https://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/1323604582.htm?ca=12_s


P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 15 February, 2018, 01:02:00 PM
Making some real progress now and the rear transaxle is built up with brakes and pot joints on and fluids in. Ready to put back on the car (will need a helper for that, as I don't have a proper lift).


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 15 February, 2018, 02:31:34 PM
Excellent Will, bar brake linings, seals, pot joints and sundry items did you have anything else to do to the transaxle? Any further on with the wheels?

P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: DavidLaver on 15 February, 2018, 02:52:59 PM

Playing devil's: perhaps getting the box back in is the excuse to get a proper lift? 


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 15 February, 2018, 03:26:12 PM
@Parisien Didn't have the transaxle apart. Just flushed and with new oil. It's low mileage so I'll find out once the car's running if there are any issues. At least I'm becoming more of an expert in how it all goes together. Pot joints needed some new needle rollers, otherwise just cleaning measuring and reassembling  after 50 years in repose (the car, not me).

I've not done any more on the wheels. Concentrating on services/mechanicals at the moment, but will need to address them before long.

@DavidLaver A good suggestion and I will install one at some point, but there will need to be quite a lot of clearance and groundworks done as the old concrete floor will have to be broken up - at least in the area the lift will go if not all the way to the walls - to give a secure base for the post bolts.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 16 February, 2018, 10:02:28 AM
On the question of adjustment, I've been poring on Tav. 54 and am wondering if the adjustment you referred to earlier is performed by removing the big covers at each end of the damper body, to get at the bolts behind. If this is the case, how can you tell which is bump and which rebound, and what direction to you turn them to stiffen or loosen (clockwise to increase damping, anti-c' to decrease?)?

On the subject of the Lancia-made rear lever-arm dampers...

My speculation of a few weeks ago (quoted above) was incorrect. The adjustment is via the 'tab' seen bottom right in the photo below:

(http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4591.0;attach=40153;image)

On my dampers the adjusters differ from each other in detail design. One has a screwed-on cover, the other no provision for one. One was seized (the one without a cover, unsurprisingly) but I freed it yesterday. Removing the adjuster assembly, I discovered that the new damper oil I had put in was now black! So both dampers have now been flushed out and refilled...

The adjustment mechanism: the tab winds in and out a conical head (a bit like the idle screws on a Fulvia's Solexes) which acts to restrict oil flow in a progressive way. There's about 2 full turns from fully in to the outer limit. Both side's adjusters are conventionally right-hand threaded (useful to know if they are seized). When fully 'in', the lever arm becomes very hard to move - in one direction, not the other - so fluid flow is definitely being controlled.

From the symmetrical shape of the body of the damper it seems likely that a second adjuster assembly (brass housing and steel cone-headed, tabbed adjuster screw) could also be fitted opposite. I presume one side would contain oil flow for compression, the other for rebound. Without swapping the adjuster over to the other side to see if this affects the lever arm I can't tell you for sure.

Unusually, the Tav (below) is unhelpful as the adjuster (9) is described as the body of the damper and the drawing shows a different component (no cone). Lancia probably modified the design; what a surprise!

(http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4591.0;attach=40164;image)


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: brian on 16 February, 2018, 12:27:26 PM
I am sure (as much as a retired medic and non-engineer is likely to be!) that you are right in the ability to change the handed-ness of the shock absorbers. I am am overhauling a pair that were both LHS but am reassembling as mirror images so watch this space.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: lancialulu on 16 February, 2018, 05:00:24 PM
On a related subject I have written a snippet for Aurelia owners regarding droop of the rear suspension beyond the extend-ability of the drive shafts.

In essence when I recently changed my pot joint boots (precautionary as the had started to perish in the folds). I found on max droop that the drive shafts were binding. On my car B12 (so 4th series de dion axle config) there are telescopic shockabsorbers that act as droop limiters. These have some adjustment where they are mounted onto the axle/rear spring. I only needed c5-10mm less droop for everything to rotate freely. Interestingly I had the same problem on my Strato's replica.... Not sure if you can manage droop on pre De-Dion Aurelias but something to check as will wear out the universal joint if the car goes to max droop while travelling....


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 11 March, 2018, 10:38:24 PM
Today I had been planning (with the assistance of Frank - Parisien, thanks for offer of help Frank) to attach the transaxle to the underside of the car. But at 6.30 pm yesterday I spotted a small puddle of hypoid oil on the floor beside the workbench the unit was on, and further investigation showed there was a slow leak of oil coming out of the input shaft (correct name?) housing.

I have had the unit sitting on a bench for a month or so, with oil in both the Ďbox and pot joints, checking occasionally for leaks. There was a small puddle I noticed a couple of weeks ago, which I thought was spillage from when I filled the thing. But no! The puddle had reappeared and - given that the oil was coming through right by the clutch plate - had to be sorted out.

You can see a drop of oil in the first photo, below the input shaft splines.

Inspection of the relevant Tavola, 25, suggested that part 12 was likely to be the culprit.

So I set about dismantling things this morning. Once I'd worked out how to remove the locknut that holds the input shaft splined item (that the clutch plate meshes with) without the special tool youíre supposed to use, and without butchering the nut, and with the housingís 10mm retaining nuts removed - and with the new oil drained from the unit of course - it was surprisingly easy to take off the clutch cover unit to reveal what you see in photos 2 and 3. Lovely oily gears and exquisite machining...

The collar tube you see in photos 2 and 3 is the piece that is supposed to seal against the failed seal. It seems as if this collar is reversible and in fact has presumably been reversed before as there's a polished line on the machined end at the front (it's the rear that seals).

The oil seal came out OK, rubber as hard and brittle as could be, no wonder it was allowing oil past. i've ordered a more highly specified one with a double seal lip (with garter spring) rather than the old single-lipped one. Conveniently, the old was was marked with its dimensions - 47x28x10.

Better to have a slight delay in proceedings now than to find yourself with an oil-soaked clutch plate later on...


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: lancialulu on 12 March, 2018, 07:49:03 AM
Good work. Is not the front of the tube sealed by 27 from the tavola? As the photo of the housing seems to show 2 seals?


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: lancialulu on 12 March, 2018, 09:39:04 AM
Hi William

sent you a PM.

Tim


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Dikappa on 13 March, 2018, 06:56:08 AM
In my opinion a new oil seal will not help.  I machined a groove in the bushing around the main shaft (it just slides on) as the shaft itself is drilled and will allow oil to the clutch release bearing (inside the shaft is a sort of 'oil pump' and a felt 'seal')
I also machined an extra oil seal in the nose of the alu housing you now removed
I blocked the shaft at the front with a screw and used a sealed support bearing.

All in all it is a weird design in my opinion...

There's pictures of this on a post about my B21.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 13 March, 2018, 09:29:08 AM
Thank you Koen and Tim and to others who have written to me 'off-forum'. It's clear that I have stumbled (slipped!) on one of the more knotty technical problems with early Aurelias (as I'm told the later gearboxes are differently designed in this area), and while I am some way towards getting my head around the issues and work arounds, I'm not going to write this up until I've done some more work on it.

Meanwhile, here's a link to Koen's informative thread on the subject from about a year ago.
http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9405.msg68683#msg68683 (http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9405.msg68683#msg68683)


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 23 March, 2018, 05:10:07 PM
Metalwork meets woodwork. Nobody Wins.

That's the title of this instructive photo, which shows my attempt to compress the clutch unit using sash cramps and blocks of wood. The springs reached a point of compression some way off that required to get the giant circlip into its groove and refused to compress any further. Tightening the cramps just made the bed of the workmate bow and... I've called a friendly local garage and will pop over tomorrow morning to use their bench press.

(https://78.media.tumblr.com/a01da34733dda75f1910f0ecac0836b7/tumblr_p66ytrg6cF1xnf5oeo1_1280.jpg)


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: DavidLaver on 23 March, 2018, 05:30:31 PM

Alas I can't remember quite how but I did this several times with the box in the car on the BWE ramp. 


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 24 March, 2018, 07:40:42 AM
Re Clutch assembly.

A kind correspondent from the USA has mailed me to explain that there are 3 regularly spaced holes in the aluminium back cover (between the 'spring bosses') through which you pass 6mm threaded bar or studs. Tightening them progressively - with some kind of bridge to brace the tightening nut against the bosses either side) will compress the springs. All this can be done as a separate unit before assembly, before the compression studs are removed. I'll get some suitable 6mm threaded bar today (none in my boxes of spare nuts, bolts and etceteras) and all should be well.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 24 March, 2018, 08:05:30 AM
I would be interested to see a photo of your clutch assembly as in my box of 'Aurelia clutch bits' I have parts of what I think is an early B10 clutch in which the steel sprung driven plate is splined on the outside ( so it moves in and out on the splines unlike the driven plate on later clutches which is 'unsplined').
I am missing the 'cover plate' for this early clutch but I don't really know exactly what I am looking for?
It doesn't keep me awake at night but nevertheless I wonder when and why the design was changed.
The later more common version has the torsional loads transmitted through the clutch springs (not the splines as there aren't any on the driven plate) in fact which sounds awful but it works. 
I assume therefore that the splined driven plate early design had problems, probably due to splines not sliding smoothly.
Chris   


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 24 March, 2018, 09:19:45 AM
Here, for Chris, is a photo that shows some of the clutch parts. I marked it because I needed to return the modern disk as its centre section 'C' was too large in diameter to fit into the pressure plate recess 'B'. The original disk's centre section ('A') does fit. The original disk has now been relined. No springs in the original disk, as you can see, so I'll prepare myself to experience some problems in use.

The aluminium cover plate with spring recesses (bosses on the back) can be seen top left.



Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: GG on 24 March, 2018, 06:07:13 PM
Just FYI - I think there maybe are two versions of the early clutch disks -Iím not home now but I think the early ones are ~180mm diameter, but come in varieties. One fit my early B20 trans, one didnít. Something was different about the height of some internal part.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 24 March, 2018, 06:35:10 PM
Some significant progress today.

Clutch compression - £1.50 spent at the local hardware store - 3 x 7cm M6 bolts and 3cm diameter penny washers. The technique is very simple and requires surprisingly little force. This is another (yet another, you might say) example of how displaying my ignorance on the forum led speedily to enlightenment.

Here's the plate and cover (springs between the two) with the 'tool' in use:

(https://78.media.tumblr.com/46204ae147de8c7feb21044423cfb88a/tumblr_p65609r0mc1xnf5oeo3_1280.jpg)

With that done, and the clutch plate centred by eye (or using an 'eyecrometer' as my helper for the day, Andrew Thorogood informed me), the clutch assembly was soon on the end of the gearbox, with the final pull into position accomplished by attaching the clutch actuating arm and giving a hard tug on it. An initial turn of the propshaft 'paddle' end on the clutch 'nose' (seen below) rather worryingly caused the unit to oscillate eccentrically, but pulling harder on the clutch lever stopped this. The plate hadnít been fully centralised (eyecrometer not as accurate as it used to be), but when freed, found its correct position.

(https://78.media.tumblr.com/f0106306d903a76256a74188f947de26/tumblr_p65609r0mc1xnf5oeo2_1280.jpg)

Next was the installation of the transaxle/clutch under the car. The only real snag we hit here was that the two crossmembers (numbers 8 and 9 in the Tav. below) were mounted the wrong way round laterally (lhs on the rhs). As they are inclined from vertical (the fixing bolts lean forward or backward towards or away from the front of the car) by c. 5 degrees) there was no way the bolts would all go into their holes until the error was figured out. More learningÖ

(https://78.media.tumblr.com/db9246b27d2aa99ab4578d485fb5ba38/tumblr_p65609r0mc1xnf5oeo1_1280.png)

(https://78.media.tumblr.com/d69fffb851195bfae642fe1340e62ce0/tumblr_p65609r0mc1xnf5oeo5_1280.jpg)

Then on to the rear suspension. There has been some discussion on the forum about how to set the position of the lever arm lever on the splined input shaft. The photo here shows that there are clear marks on both shaft and lever. When aligned, the upper and lower limits of movement (around 90 degrees in total) are where you would expect them to be, so Iím hoping that the obvious fitting position is correct.

(https://78.media.tumblr.com/5da83ddbe05886c08166cd04d0280b06/tumblr_p65609r0mc1xnf5oeo4_1280.jpg)

As a footnote on the subject of the lever arm fitting (added later)... when I came to fit the other side, there was not a line on the splined shaft and no mark on the arm either. Luckily I could check the left hand side seen above to see the limits of the arm's movement. The total angular movement is c. 80-90 degrees, and the halfway point is horizontal. This makes sense to me, as this will give the closest to a consistent - linear - damping response (the position on the circumference will effectively change the 'gearing' of the damping, I'd suggest).



Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: DavidLaver on 24 March, 2018, 10:52:08 PM
Cross members on the wrong way - how long did that take to work out?  Made me smile with how understated you were describing that.  Its billed as the only real snag, which begs the question as to what turned out to not be snags but took time?


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: DavidLaver on 24 March, 2018, 10:53:21 PM

....I spent the afternoon looking for teeny tiny bits of bike brakes that found their ways under the bench or into boxes of bits...


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 25 March, 2018, 08:32:13 AM
Cross members on the wrong way - how long did that take to work out?  Made me smile with how understated you were describing that.  Its billed as the only real snag, which begs the question as to what turned out to not be snags but took time?

There was a bit of "why won't the b****y holes line up" expression, but I think it was probably only about 5 minutes before I figured it out. Removing and putting the crossmembers back in the correct positions another 5 - the bolts hadn't been lock-wired yet, but are now.

Quick question for you David; can you see the photos in my last post? I've been struggling with the photo-posting capabilities of the Forum. The standard upload only allows them in a group after your text, which is a bit unsatisfactory (in my view). I used google photos and grabbed image URLs - but using an incognito browser to check (not logged into google) the images didn't show on the post. I've now put them in a Drpbox shared folder. So, are they working for you now and were they before?


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 25 March, 2018, 10:02:33 AM
Cant see any of your recent photos William?
Chris


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 25 March, 2018, 10:25:49 AM
Cant see any of your recent photos William?
Chris

Try refreshing the page Chris - I've put the photos somewhere else online and I think they might now appear. Were you able to see the earlier photo of the clutch disk?


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: the.cern on 26 March, 2018, 09:32:16 AM
Hello William, I can see all the photographs except those which accompanied the 'metalwork meets woodwork'!!!

I am hoping that I will remember that the transaxle support members are handed ..... it is great to pick up these tips on the forum!!! However, I have to get a lot of non Lancia work off my plate before I may return to the workshop so it may a while before my memory is tested!!!!!!

Good luck with your ongoing work, Andy


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 26 March, 2018, 09:44:49 AM
Hello William, I can see all the photographs except those which accompanied the 'metalwork meets woodwork'!!!

I am hoping that I will remember that the transaxle support members are handed ..... it is great to pick up these tips on the forum!!! However, I have to get a lot of non Lancia work off my plate before I may return to the workshop so it may a while before my memory is tested!!!!!!

Good luck with your ongoing work, Andy

Hi Andy,

I think I've fixed the 'woodwork' photo.

Re the transaxle crossmember bolts: if you trial fit them - on their own - to the underside of the car (as I did) it's clear which direction they are 'leaning'. Having done this myself was the 'clue' that led to the figuring out of the problem. The angle of bolts (and thus the angle of the bush mountings on either end of the crossmembers) is large enough that you can easily spot it by eye to determine the correct position.

Best, William


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: DavidLaver on 26 March, 2018, 02:39:46 PM

Photos - can see them now.  99pct of my online life is on a chromebook now and even on that I can take whatever image from wherever (copyright permitting...), save it on the machine to then attach back to the forum post.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 26 March, 2018, 02:49:44 PM

Photos - can see them now.  99pct of my online life is on a chromebook now and even on that I can take whatever image from wherever (copyright permitting...), save it on the machine to then attach back to the forum post.

I can attach photos to forum posts using the '+ Additional Options...' function (as long as the files are not too large or too many), but it is not possible to have photos 'in-line', i.e. text, photo to illustrate, text, photo to illustrate, etc. etc. I think it's easier to explain what you've been doing if the text and images can alternate. Never mind, I might try making lots of smaller posts rather than fewer, longer ones.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 26 March, 2018, 05:11:30 PM
All photos there now William. Well done.
Chris


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 13 May, 2018, 09:43:57 PM
More progress, more problems...

Yesterday was exciting. Brakes now working (hydraulic and hand) and the engine installed for the first time.

However. The engine (B12) with air cleaner on top is too tall by about 5 cm and fouls the bonnet as a result. See photos 2 and 3. The air cleaner (FISPA) is pretty tall from mounting flange to top it's about 13 cm.

Is the B12 engine taller than a B10 one?

The very irritating thing is that, until about 2 weeks ago, I had in a box what would have probably been the easiest answer to this - a FISPA Flaminia air cleaner (photo 4) suitable for the Solex PAAI I have on the engine. 2 weeks ago I responded to an enquiry from a Flaminia owner in Italy who needed such an air cleaner so I sold it to him - it had sat in a box for 15 years so I couldn't see a reason not to help out. A lesson to horde?

Any suggestions? Does someone have a suitable air cleaner that's less tall?




Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: lancianut666 on 14 May, 2018, 06:18:23 AM
That sure is one beast of an air filter casing is it an oil bath one?
Clarkey


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 14 May, 2018, 07:48:47 AM
William,
I am fairly sure  I have a suitable FISPA pancake air filter box in the UK (which might need some tlc) and I certainly have one here to refer to. They are 7 cm overall height. I am next in UK Wednesday this week for a couple of days.
Chris   


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 14 May, 2018, 07:52:10 AM
Thanks Chris,
7cm would do it - I have at least 10cm of clearance...
William


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 16 May, 2018, 12:59:10 PM
That sure is one beast of an air filter casing is it an oil bath one?
Clarkey

No oil bath in it. The filter element is lots of layers of wire mesh. It looks very like the one shown in the first edition (B10) of the parts book. Shame it doesn't fit!



Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 17 May, 2018, 12:44:19 PM
I think that Aurelia engines were very much the same overall height but the carburettor height certainly does vary with the Solex 40PAAI being as tall as a Weber 40DCL/Z.
Chris


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 26 May, 2018, 07:16:13 AM
This morning I seem to have hit a significant snag.

I tried to complete the fitting of the propshaft, but it is clear that the engine is too high relative to the propshaft tunnel, by perhaps 3 cm, possibly more.

There are new engine rubber mounts in place, which are not yet compressed, but that couldn't make more than perhaps 5mm of difference. So my best guess supposition is that the engine mounts on the block are the wrong type. The engine is a B12 one (for reasons I won't go into now) and I'm wondering if the B10 mounts put the engine at a different height to B10 ones.

But are the mounts different? The parts books for S1 and S2 use exactly the same drawing (below). There is a different part number but could be a result of the new numbering system in the S2 book.
S1 - Tav 9, #14. B10-018R
S2 - Tav 9, #14. 1100871

Does anyone here have detailed knowledge of Aurelia berlina engine mounts and the differences between series?

Looks like the engine will be coming out again...






Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 26 May, 2018, 08:05:26 PM
After some investigation, which included measuring the B10 engine mount plates (rear) that I managed to find in my not always perfectly organised  'stores', it is clear that the issue was not these. So attention then turned  to the new engine mount rubbers.

These seem to have almost no 'squish' in them. With me today, helping out, was Andrew Thorogood, who knows a lot about old Italian cars. He does some work with one of the leading suppliers of parts for Alfa 105 cars, who says that modern compounds for 'repro' engine mount rubbers have a much higher plastic content (less rubber) than the originals. As a result, the modern replacements often produce significant NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) problems.

I have kept my old engine and transaxle mounts, and it's true that the old ones are much softer than the modern ones.

So, I swapped in old mounts in and lo and behold there was enough clearance to get the prop in. And it is now in.

Not a huge list of jobs to do before the engine can be started. That'll be a big day.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 28 May, 2018, 12:14:48 PM
Will, are all new engine mounts the same ie, largely uncompressable and bound to give mounting issues?

Good to hear you're making progress, you have a pm.


P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 28 May, 2018, 05:11:32 PM
Will, are all new engine mounts the same ie, largely uncompressable and bound to give mounting issues?

Good to hear you're making progress, you have a pm.

P

Thanks Frank. I don't know if all new mounts are the same, but it does seem surprising to me that the manufacturers of such things are not making more of an effort to assess and reproduce original specifications.

Cheers,
William


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 27 June, 2018, 07:37:46 PM
Progress update.

The dashboard is in and the gear linkage in and adjusted. I can select all 5 gears which is encouraging! The 3-4 plane isn't exactly where it should be - at the rest position of the column lever - so some further adjustments will be needed once the car is running.

The engine has been spun over on the starter with the plugs out and oil pressure is showing on the dashboard gauge.

Today the fuel system has been connected up and is delivering fuel without any leaks down the lines. This took a while as the pump I had fitted didn't pump and it took a while and some fiddly removal and refitting procedures before the problem was identified. Luckily I had a spare correct pump on a shelf in a box of parts put aside for a future project - an early Giulietta Sprint. With the spare pump fitted and the system primed using back-pressure from the tank, fuel was finally seen coming through to the carb. When the accelerator pedal is pressed, the jets in the throats squirt fuel down the venturis, so all seems well in that department (for now).

Back-pressure on the tank was obtained as seen in the photo below, by using a bit of old inner-tube and an airline. A technique found in an old forum post using Google search.

The static timing is set, so once the coil has some current the thing should be able to be started. A big moment in prospect...




Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 27 June, 2018, 08:27:42 PM
Wonderful progress William, you've the bit between your teeth now, a wonderful moment to look forward too.

P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 29 June, 2018, 07:08:50 PM
Battery specification.

Does anyone know the correct rating for the B10 battery or should I just get the most powerful one that will fit the box?

Tried start-up tonight, but the pensioned-off battery I've been using to turn the engine over without plugs didn't have (even when fully charged according to the battery charger's lights) enough juice to turn the engine over at any speed. It's possible the starter isn't up to it, but first thing to try is, I think, a new healthy known-quantity battery. I'll check the earth first though...


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: simonandjuliet on 29 June, 2018, 07:18:54 PM
I always go for the most powerful one that fits , and black if I can find it .... looks better !


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: the.cern on 01 July, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
If you want to retain 'the look' you could try this company. They are local to me in Southend, but have a delivery option (with the acid supplied separately) for the uk.
I cannot guarantee their quality, but suffice it to say I have been using them on and off for over 40 years!!
Good luck with things, Andy


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 01 July, 2018, 05:05:06 PM
Thank you Andy for the tip - but yesterday I bought the biggest black battery (cranking amps) that I could find at Kwikfit, which with the sticker off the front and the cover screwed down will look just fine, I think.

Anyway, back to the starting issues.

First problem I managed to solve was related to there being a spark through the king lead but not at the plugs. This turned out to be due to the rotor sitting too low and so circulating below the level of the cap contacts. The rotor was too long at the lower end when I got it and had to be ground down before it would engage with the slot on the top of the distributor shaft (Elizabeth at Omicron tells me that they have to do this - the modern caps are to some extent 'generic', e.g. made for several different cars). Clearly I had ground it down too much. A washer underneath the rotor raised it enough (with a little upward tweak to the rotor contact at the edge) to bring things into alignment, at which point I was getting a nice big spark at the plugs.

However, the thing still wouldn't start? Why?

The points had been tested with a light and the timing appeared spot-on...

But with the lhd valve cover (1-3-5) removed, turning the engine showed that when the flywheel was on the correct mark and the rotor arm was pointing at no1 ht contact, the engine was at the point where the exhaust valve had just closed and the inlet was about to open. Surely the timing was 180 degrees out?

I had suspected this before, but the distributor will only sit down in one position - though it looks as if the slots that it locates in are the same size, and the lugs on the bottom of the distributor shaft measure the same size.

So I connected up the plug leads 180 out and...

Bingo.

Great oil pressure.
Little observable propshaft vibration
I put the car (on stands) into top gear and ran it briefly at 50 kmh (no coolant in yet) - some gearbox noise, but bearable, and lots of sound deadening is not yet in place). The speedometer works!
Pushing the brakes slowed the engine.

So with some wheels on I could be driving it up and down.

Definitely a milestone. I have to check the Swedish paperwork but from memory, I think the car has been off the road since about 1966.

One of my daughters filmed the start-up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMeJqt-knLI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMeJqt-knLI&feature=youtu.be)

Can anyone here suggest how I can 'correct' the timing so that the leads can be connected normally? What has been done wrong in the build??


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 01 July, 2018, 05:45:33 PM
Fantastic William. You must be so pleased. Its all downhill from now on.
Chris


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 01 July, 2018, 06:34:32 PM
Absolutely, great to see your camera person had full faith in you, looking forward to the next instalment!

P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 01 July, 2018, 09:23:10 PM
Thank you Chris (for much help and support) and Frank.

So, the question of how the engine comes to be 180 degrees out in timing...

Looking at the Tavola below, I am assuming that the problem is that part 1 has been assembled wrongly.

Any thoughts on this?

If only it were possible to just remove the dizzy and put it back half a turn round, but it seems that Lancia sensibly made sure that there was only one, correct, position. Fine, as long as the dizzy drive from the oil pump has been correctly put together (which I'm assuming is not the case with my engine).

Probably I shall have to drain the engine, remove the pump and re-align the dizzy drive. Is this possible without removing the engine entirely (would rather not do that)?



Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Dikappa on 02 July, 2018, 04:12:11 PM
Not too much smoke for a first start-up!  Well done!

Correct me if I'm wrong but I had the shaft out of the B21 a couple of times, and with some 'wiggeling' with the crank it has engaged with the oil pump every time
I marked the position of the shaft so that you can check it's low enough to have properly engaged with the pump drive.

Takes a bit of fiddling but always quicker than having the sump of IMO.



Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 02 July, 2018, 06:42:34 PM
I think like Koen that you can lift that distributor drive out, turn through 180 deg and then wiggle it back in place on the oil pump drive. A bit of patience and luck are required  but much easier that going in through the sump as the engine would have to come out.
Chris


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 03 July, 2018, 08:41:29 AM
Taking out the drive from the oil pump from above is clearly the next step.

In France in the Flavia Vignale this week, so nothing will happen until we're back.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Niels Jonassen on 03 July, 2018, 07:41:18 PM
When you have the shaft out be careful not to loose a washer into the sump.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 09 July, 2018, 09:42:29 PM
Timing now fixed. It turned out to be straightforward to remove the distributor drive, once the 'turret' that the distributor fixes to was removed. No special tools, just turning and lifting by hand was sufficient. There are only two positions that it can be in to 'seat' down properly as there's a slot drive at the bottom as well as the helical drive gear.

10 minutes later the distributor was retimed and the engine started with all the leads in the correct position. Very satisfying.

Next step is to properly plumb in the battery and get services tested and live.

There is no earth strap from the engine to the chassis. Where should this mount and how long will it need to be?

The Tav extract below has what looks like a strap, part 20. But where on the body should it connect to? Information please...

One more question. I have a (working) original 50s Marelli Superpotente coil that came with the car, but it has no ballast resistor. Am I right in thinking that I'll need to add one? What rating should it have (0.8 / 1.6 ohms)? I've read that the coil resistance needs to be c. 3 ohms, so if it is lower than that, then you need to add a ballast resistor to bring the total resistance up to this figure. Is that correct?



Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 14 July, 2018, 08:35:06 PM
Another milestone today, when the B10 was fit to be driven up and down in my yard.

Video here: https://youtu.be/2CGlKHlNDT0 (https://youtu.be/2CGlKHlNDT0)

The doors and interior need to be fitted, but I have the lights working and the rest of the electrical services have been tested. A major remaining task is the completion of the rebuilding of the trafficators. Once that's done a test for UK registration is in sight.

The car (in 1st and 2nd gear) seems to go very well and I can't wait to get it on the road to be properly 'shaken down'.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Richard Fridd on 15 July, 2018, 06:40:29 AM
Looks good


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Dikappa on 15 July, 2018, 10:03:41 AM
1-0 for england this one!


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 12 August, 2018, 10:26:26 AM
The earth strap can of course be bolted to anywahere on the body but there are various fittings in the pedal box area as well as further forward. And there are short and long OE earth straps.
I would try to fit 2 engine/body straps just in case you have a poor connection from one in years to come.
Chris


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 12 August, 2018, 05:13:35 PM
Thank you Chris,

As it happens, I bought one long and one short strap and the short one only is currently mounted. But to avoid future engine earth problems that's a good notion, so I'll probably fit the second at some point.

Some photos below showing some progress with cleaning and refitting the interior. The only part that I had to replace was the headlining which was remade by Elvezio in Italy. The fit and material are as near perfect as far as I can see, so very happy with that result. The interior paint (dash and screen surround) is original and hasn't been refinished.

There has been lots of long-winded cleaning and detailed patient trial fitting (a good range of self tappers is essential - to original size spec's of course - is essential and sometimes an oversize is needed to get a grip where the original hole has become enlarged), then fitting, then in some cases taking it off because I'd missed a critical path to the fitting of another part. The aluminium trim and weatherseal on the doors is especially fiddly and frustrating, probably the hardest challenge so far - up there with the door seals.

The engine isn't running quite right, and I'd appreciate any thoughts people might have on this. Main symptom is that it won't rev properly and will die on more than half-throttle. It starts and idles perfectly.

I have checked the timing of the two banks and it is matched (was off and needed correcting, which helped a bit), and the ignition timing is correct (on the light and static). Valve clearances checked. Distributor points gaps checked. If you stall the engine by fully opening the throttle and then check the float chamber, there's plenty of fuel in it (I'd wondered if the pump wasn't delivering enough fuel).

It is as if the carburettor (Solex PAAI) isn't working when on the main jets. I've had the carb fully apart (twice), soaked in an ultrasonic bath, blown through all the holes with carb cleaner and air and all seem clear.

When the engine was first started, it didn't have this problem. So something has changed...

Other things I've wondered about:
- The distributor is a Marelli S53C, which I think is correct for a B20, not a B12 engine as I have. I've been told that the advance will be slightly wrong, but on the other hand the engine ran OK to start with...
- One bank (2, 4, 6) is running hotter than the other one. You can feel it in the engine bay, and the difference in temperature is marked at the rear of the exhaust, both the gas emerging and the pipes themselves. What could cause this? My guess would be timing discrepencies, but I've checked this and can't find a problem.

Helpful suggestions and knowledge gratefully received.




Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Richard Fridd on 12 August, 2018, 05:37:37 PM
Wonderful seats. Carburettor problems- fuel pressure?


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 13 August, 2018, 07:45:00 AM
The interior was one of the reasons I bought the car, you won't be surprised to hear.

What should the pressure be from a Fispa Sup 60 pump (feeding a Solex 40 PAAI)? I can't find any reference to this online, but will consult the workshop manual when I'm home this evening.

UPDATE - found this on GG's site: 'FUEL PUMP - Check the pressure coming off the mechanical pump - it should be between 2.5 and 4 psi.'. Thank you Geoff.
http://www.lanciaaurelia.info/tech-tips.html (http://www.lanciaaurelia.info/tech-tips.html)

I've bought a fuel pressure test kit (£15 on ebay) and will see what the story is in a few days.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: lancialulu on 13 August, 2018, 10:03:13 AM
Could it be a dodgy capacitor???


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 13 August, 2018, 10:20:22 AM
Could it be a dodgy capacitor???

Thanks. Interesting idea - and refreshingly easy to check! I guess the old (1950s) coil might also be failing when asked to charge/discharge more rapidly as revs rise. So I should try another coil too, if a new capacitor doesn't make any difference.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 15 August, 2018, 09:29:17 PM
I have followed-up on the helpful suggestions from Tim and Richard.

Fuel pressure - it was straightforward, with a bit of improvisation, to hook meter to the fuel pipe (carb end), and the reading (photo below) of 2.7 is within the 2.5-4.00 psi range required. I should be pleased, though it gets me no nearer to solving the running problem. I suppose it's good to know that all's well with the pump though, and also to have a new tool on the shelf for solving future problems.

Condenser / coil. The idea that one or both of these components was failing seemed to make a lot of sense. So I had some real hope that the new coil in particular would be the answer. But sadly it was not so. The issue is exactly as before.

And there is still the weird symptom where the 2, 4, 6 bank is running much hotter than 1, 3, 5. Which might or might not be related to the engine dying whenever it is reved much about 2,500 rpm.

So I think my attention will have next to be given to the distributor and carburettor. Again, in both cases.

The dizzy hasn't been apart, just had points adjusted. Perhaps there is an issue with the advance mechanism? I think I'll have a look at that before stripping the carb again.

The bank heat question. Someone suggested that I reverse the ignition (dizzy 180 degrees out - I know how to do that having corrected it before). If, with the ignition 180 out, 1, 3, 5 was the hot bank, then it would suggest the ignition timing within the distributor is the cause. Is that right?


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Dikappa on 16 August, 2018, 05:20:54 PM
Love those seats!!!!!


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 16 August, 2018, 06:06:24 PM
Love those seats!!!!!

Very similar to those in the B12 of The Automobile magazine. But yes agree sets off the B10's interior nicely, lots of niggley snags to work your way through William, but you'll get there in the end!


P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Richard Fridd on 16 August, 2018, 07:31:16 PM
How about checking the spark plugs condition at the point of engine cutting out, if that hasn't been done already?


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 17 August, 2018, 08:09:44 AM
Love those seats!!!!!

Very similar to those in the B12 of The Automobile magazine. But yes agree sets off the B10's interior nicely, lots of niggley snags to work your way through William, but you'll get there in the end!


P

I'm sure I will, thank you Frank.

The Automobile B12 (do they still have it?) is the only other Aurelia berlina I've seen with an original leather interior. That car has individual 'bucket' seats in the front and the whole interior is really lovely. The colour of the leather is different - more a natural tan colour and paler in colour than the ones in my car. Different shape/style too.

Below is a photo I took of it as reference for seal fitting. The aluminium sill plates and steel hinge cover are fastened with cross-headed screws which I think are incorrect. There were none on my B10 when I took it apart and no references to them in the parts book. Yes. I have become a fastener geek and uber-anorak!


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 18 August, 2018, 11:40:43 AM
This morning I tracked-down my little infra-red spot temperature gauge, which thankfully was still working after a few years on a shelf.

This showed, alarmingly, that after the car was seemed to be near to running temperature after a few minutes at fast idle, the discrepancy between the banks is very considerable.

I measured the top of the cast iron manifold where it joins to the head. The reading on the 2,4,6 bank were in the region of 200 degrees C when the 1,3,5 bank was running at 80 degrees.

I can't see what would cause this other than coolant, for some reason, not circulating through the head in question. And there is no way to investigate this that I can see other than taking that head off (as a minimum - if the head is fine then more might have to come apart, I suppose).

The problem seems severe enough that I think I'd rather not run the engine again until I'm sure that doing so can't cause some damage.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: frankxhv773t on 18 August, 2018, 01:27:59 PM
That's not good news but you will not be confident with the car till you know what is going on. At least having the heads off to check the waterways isn't too massive a job. Good luck.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 18 August, 2018, 02:08:16 PM
In the dim and distant past, I had a 1600 HF Fulvia which I had done some work on the engine. I then ran the car to warm it up and the exhaust manifold glowed red hot.....due to the timing being out which was my error.
What sort of temperature is the cylinder head itself running at near a waterway?
Before doing anything dramatic I would have a close look at the distributor ( 2 sets of points, one for each bank) and maybe change it for another one and retime.
Also recheck the valve timing just to be on the safe side.
Chris


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 08 October, 2018, 07:29:45 AM
A couple of months since the last update on this project and a lot has happened since then.

The temperature discrepancy between the banks turned out to be timing related (Chris's suggestion) and both sides now run at very similar heat levels, but the exhaust at the rear of the car is still hotter on one side than the other. As one bank is running richer than the other (based on plug colour) sorting out the carb settings might well also sort out this remaining temperature worry.

The car's 'snagging list' is being chipped away at... this weekend half a dozen things were crossed-off, but 2 or 3 added. I think. Roughly 25 done and 25 to go, but realistically I know that there will always be things to be done on a car this age.

The photos below show the car as it is now - drivable and generally going quite well though the engine is as I mentioned running too rich and wetting plugs, so the carburettor set-up still needs to be worked on. There is a replacement carb on the car since I last posted, the fitting of which has sorted out the engineís reluctance to rev. Iím still not sure what the issue with the first carb was. The Solex PAAI 40 doesnít have much in the way of adjustment. Beyond the idle mixture screws and idle adjustment for the butterflies, you are into changing jets. At least thatís what seems to be the case but Iím not that familiar with these carbs and am still learning how they operate.

The trafficators are next on the rebuild list, hence the holes in the front wings.

The first of the photos is of the car in Sweden in 2004, from the ebay listing where I first spotted it.

I currently have the Swedish numberplate (from 1962 when the car was last on the road) mounted, but presumably the DVLA will, once the car has been through their test, issue an age-related UK one. Does anyone know if it's possible to apply to keep the Swedish registration? I assume not, but no harm in asking. I know the club can help people keep old UK registrations with cars.




Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Sebastien on 08 October, 2018, 02:05:40 PM
William, beautiful photos of a very nice, early car.

The Italians love the early Aurelia berlinas, with their trafficators in the front wing!

I saw that you were rebuilding it with a B12 engine, which is fitted with the big Solex 40 PAAI carburetor. It is in my opinion the ideal Aurelia engine, powerful, and lots of torque low down. Also tremendously reliable. Will be a lot of fun in the lightweight B10 body.

My question: do you also have a B12 gearbox fitted?
If you kept the original B10 gearbox, you will be able to start in 2nd everywhere, and maximum speed will be 70 mph, with a screaming engine. This is what happened when I got my B50 cabriolet, 2,3 liters, many years ago. I had to source a B12 gearbox, to get the long legged car I was looking for.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 08 October, 2018, 02:59:37 PM
William, beautiful photos of a very nice, early car.

The Italians love the early Aurelia berlinas, with their trafficators in the front wing!

I saw that you were rebuilding it with a B12 engine, which is fitted with the big Solex 40 PAAI carburetor. It is in my opinion the ideal Aurelia engine, powerful, and lots of torque low down. Also tremendously reliable. Will be a lot of fun in the lightweight B10 body.

My question: do you also have a B12 gearbox fitted?
If you kept the original B10 gearbox, you will be able to start in 2nd everywhere, and maximum speed will be 70 mph, with a screaming engine. This is what happened when I got my B50 cabriolet, 2,3 liters, many years ago. I had to source a B12 gearbox, to get the long legged car I was looking for.

Thank you Sebastien,

The car does still have the original B10 gearbox fitted. It is quiet, has a nice shift action and - a related issue - the clutch has a very nice feel and doesn't seem to have any problems handling the engine's torque.

That said, I've so far only had the car up to 80 kmh / 50 mph on a first shakedown run.

The gearing is low with, as you suggest, no need to use 1st unless you were on a hill, and as a result the car is remarkably accelerative, in a way that is quite surprising and almost out of keeping with its size and appearance (but not if you know about what's under the skin). A year or two ago I looked at a chart of the final drive ratios of the various different Aurelia 'boxes and (from memory) it seemed that there was about a 10% difference between B10 and B12. I'll check the figures again. At the time I decided to to build up and use the B10 for a while with the original box and see how frustrating I found the gearing. I don't have a 'spare' B12 box, but I do have a spare 6th Series B20 one, which I hope might be able to be traded for a B12 box if I go down that path...





Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Sebastien on 08 October, 2018, 04:06:33 PM
Agreed, the difference in gearing is not much. As you wrote, less than 10%.

However at 120 km/h, something like 75 mph, with a B10 box in 4th you are reving at already 4000 RPM, while with the B12 one it is 3650 RPM. Which means that if you still want to push on, you have more under the foot! It is also easier on the ears.

Effect also noticeable if you are in 3rd, at 80 km/h and want to overtake.

Conversely, one advantage of the B10 final drive ratio is that you will use 1st gear less, which is also good for the ears, and the straight pinions. So you get a kind of an all-synchro 3 speed gearbox!





Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 08 October, 2018, 04:14:04 PM
I think I'm right in saying that Tim Burrett has fitted an overdrive to his B22, between the engine and clutch. Tim is a great expert and engineer, but Iím not interested in going that far in the quest to reduce engine speed. I had already been coming to terms with the thought that I would effectively be driving a '3-on-the-tree'. Given the torquey nature of the engine the number of gears doesnít necessarily matter, but top gear ratio always does.

The slight irony is that the shift from 2nd to 1st while moving is much nicer than it was on my (floor change) 6th Series B20.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: GG on 08 October, 2018, 09:19:42 PM
Car looks great WIlliam!

Not too much to add to the gearing discussion, but just some personal experience.

Using a B20 s.4, 3rd gear was THE master overtaking and performance gear (50-70mph), and then drop back into 4th. (see Nigel Trow's intro essay in Shield and Flag on the glories of 3rd gear in a B20)

In the s.2 with its different ratios, and the 2 liter motor, 4th gear gets much more of the higher end work - say 60 mph +.

That said, both are right on for the motor size, something clearly tested at the factory.


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: chriswgawne on 09 October, 2018, 12:12:39 PM
Looking good William. You have a  real Q car there.
You know my thoughts on the B12 transaxle issue and also the associated clutch issue but as you say, best to get a few miles on the clock then maybe reconsider.
Your car is my favourite Aurelia saloon colour by the way.
Chris


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: Parisien on 09 October, 2018, 12:36:52 PM
A tribute to you William, great to see you're just down to a snagging list, very satisfying, yet another Aurelia saved and a B 10 too.

P


Title: Re: B10*2283
Post by: williamcorke on 09 October, 2018, 07:46:02 PM
A tribute to you William, great to see you're just down to a snagging list, very satisfying, yet another Aurelia saved and a B 10 too.

P

Thank you Frank, but the 'just a snagging list' isn't necessarily minor tasks... for instance, one of the rear wheel bearing still needs to be changed. Peter Harding will help me to do it (he has the tools) but he refused to attempt the job without the suspension attached to the car, so the car will be driven to him, whining bearing and all.

And snag number 48 on the list is 'World Peace', which while only a bit more complicated than an Aurelia berlina restoration will probably delay completion of the project :-).