Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Flavia => Topic started by: LanciAlan on 28 June, 2011, 11:11:09 PM



Title: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: LanciAlan on 28 June, 2011, 11:11:09 PM
I have some suspension clonking on my 2000HF that suggests upper balljoint wear.

My car has the tubular type of upper wishbone arm with a balljoint that seats into a housing with a grease nipple that was also fitted to earlier series 2 Fulvias but subsequently replaced for later series 2/3 with pressed steel type wishbone arms having no grease nipple. It may also be the Fulvia series 1 type.

As far as I can see from my Tavola books, the balljoint on these Fulvia and 2000 models was the same part no 2274302, originating in the Fulvia series 818.612. Earlier Flavia/2000 models appear to have had a different part no.2190933 originating on Flavia 815.00.

I do not have any of these balljoints in serviceable condition but I have a few decent examples of the later type balljoint as fitted to later series 2 and 3 Fulvias part no 4050178 (origin "999") w.e.f. July 1973.

Does anyone know if the early series 2 Fulvia and 2000 type balljoints are interchangeable with the later series 2/3 Fulvia type?

Thanks

Alan


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: fay66 on 29 June, 2011, 12:12:05 AM
Alan,
It might be a good idea to talk to Omicron as they are pretty clued up on the differences with the ball joints.
Just had 4 boots for the balljoints for my series 1 Fulvia 2c from them, as the old ones are perished and leaking grease.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: lancialulu on 29 June, 2011, 05:44:29 AM
Alan

I seem to remember I had that problem some years ago with supply from Omicron for my S2 Fulvia coupe not realising at the time (I was still learning the car then!) that I had a series 1.5 with the series 1 tubular suspension. I also found that (some?) HF lowers don't fit s1 STD suspension and vica versa. Omicron have the right stocked parts.

Tim


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: LanciAlan on 29 June, 2011, 06:19:18 AM

Thank you both for your overnight deposits.

I was hoping to get away without paying/waiting for new parts and maybe use some of my extensive hoard of used spares but from what you say there appear to be interchangeability issues.

I may try swopping over whole wishbones as an interim measure - I actually do have complete spares on another low mileage car but the boots are gone.

I'll ask Omicron about that.

Regards

Alan


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: Richard Fridd on 29 June, 2011, 06:57:31 AM
hi Alan,i have a packet labelled 'suspension ball joint 46 FRAP lancia fulvia flavia'which contains a top ball joint with grease nipple.this fits the tubular fabricated wishbones.the pressed wishbones have a balljoint with a 3 hole triangular flange which bolts to the s2 pressing rather tha being pressed into the s1 casting i think.best regards richard


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: fay66 on 29 June, 2011, 08:46:18 AM

Thank you both for your overnight deposits.

I was hoping to get away without paying/waiting for new parts and maybe use some of my extensive hoard of used spares but from what you say there appear to be interchangeability issues.

I may try swopping over whole wishbones as an interim measure - I actually do have complete spares on another low mileage car but the boots are gone.

I'll ask Omicron about that.

Regards

Alan
The boots from Omicron that I bought the other day cost 4.04 each and the total including vat and postage for the four came to 22.39.
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: Kevin MacBride on 29 June, 2011, 08:59:06 AM
The parts books should have a section on supercession of part numbers, however this was dependant on the dealer at the time updating the relevant pages.
Generally speaking, if the part number was different, so was the part. The differance could be one has a grease nipple, and the later one is a 'sealed' type, or a differance in the 'taper' of the joint. What we would do if unsure (and still do today), would be to check the part numbers of the various componets to see compatability. In this case, the wisbone itself, and the hub carrier. Barring that, the easiest thing would be to put check each balljoint against each other. Easier of course when we were dealing with new parts, rather that stripping them off the car. If the cap fits as it were.
Fiat/Lancia supplied many components under differant part numbers, which were actually the same part. This enabled them to keep track of who was supplying them the parts. They use the same system today.
If it were me, I'd try both balljoints, rather than stripping wishbones.


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: LanciAlan on 29 June, 2011, 12:11:36 PM
Thank you both.

hi Alan,i have a packet labelled 'suspension ball joint 46 FRAP lancia fulvia flavia'which contains a top ball joint with grease nipple.this fits the tubular fabricated wishbones.the pressed wishbones have a balljoint with a 3 hole triangular flange which bolts to the s2 pressing rather tha being pressed into the s1 casting i think.best regards richard

the 46 FRAP sounds like a manufacturer part no rather than a Lancia one and it could be the earlier Flavia/Fulvia type - I'll have to ask Omicron or someone - are you considering selling it?

If it were me, I'd try both balljoints, rather than stripping wishbones.

Yes thats the first plan of action, then failing that swop wishbones, then buy new ones.

 I am essentially asking if the "3 hole triangular flange which bolts to the s2 wishbone pressing" will also fit onto the 3 studs that are embedded in the fabricated type wishbone casting and that are used to hold the boot retainer ring in place over the lip at the base of the boot (as I recall).

Probably unlikely I know.


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: Richard Fridd on 29 June, 2011, 02:52:31 PM
hi Alan,i agree the s2 item is unlikely to fit unless you can come up with a mod of some sort-cant think what though!i dont have a surplus one for sale unfortunately as it is part of my s1 spares kit,although i can tell you that it came from 'day and white' at brands hatch cost 30 quid or so.if there are any equivilants around that would be handy to know.best regards richard


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: lancialulu on 29 June, 2011, 04:07:53 PM
Alan

That was what I was essentially trying to do with the bottom joint as i had one without a flange....

It doesnt work for the bottom..

Tim


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: LanciAlan on 29 June, 2011, 05:36:04 PM
Thanks to all - I've bit the balljoint/bullet, contacted Omicron and ordered them and some spare boots.

Now, any advice on extraction of the embedded upper flange-less type from the wishbone? (Ideally while the wishbone is on the car though they have been off it recently so I can do that too if needed.)

And the lower flanged type (I've had a go at this before with no joy).

Alan


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: Richard Fridd on 29 June, 2011, 06:03:12 PM
the use of a puller i guess.puller 8042111? if available[or a home made one]+heat.what does the shop manual say i wonder?


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: lancialulu on 29 June, 2011, 07:17:01 PM
They drift out easy if you can

A) get a 3lb hammer to the base of the of the joint
B) the wishbone is solidly supported take the hammer blow

However I seem to remember that A was impossible with arm in position so I made a place (old disk pad) that fitted over the cone joint and put the nut  back on and used a wedge splurged to "pull" the joint out of its mounting.

Tim


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: LanciAlan on 30 June, 2011, 07:17:02 AM
Tim

Very good. I've got the general idea for your non-violent in situ removal plan - it's knowing that it can be removed by ordinary mortals that provides the extra elbow grease and confidence.

Fit plate with hole in place of hub carrier then use an expanding device to draw the joint out. - maybe a very large balljoint splitter that allows the joint to pass through its jaws?

But before I go and ask for one in the motor factors, what is a "wedge splurged"?

Alan



Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: lancialulu on 30 June, 2011, 08:03:16 AM
Hi Alan

Yes you wont get far looking for a wedge splurged! Dont know where that came from as I typed splitter.... Maybe I got fed up with Nadals anticss whilehe waits for serve...

Actually I remeber it was quite brutal...pack off the plate as you have desribed car side then wack the other side of the plate till someting gives. Understanding the suspesion a bit better now I think I may try to let the top arm go down to max (Iwould chain the spring round the bump support (assuming they havnt gone rusty/frail) while in the normal position and then drop the arm off the spring, and then rig up the support to "tap" the rusted up thing out - plent of plus gas and that freeze penetrator thats becoming available.

I hasten to add this is my thoughts and un tried so no liability...

Best of luck

Tim

PS changing the other side and the bottoms at same time? If I put new boots on the old joints I use a g clapm to gently compress the ball joint to get grease int to the top as well as the failure seems to be the spring (Breaking from rust??). 


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: LanciAlan on 30 June, 2011, 12:20:36 PM
Plenty of food for thought there. I'll put it up on blocks at the weekend and have a go. One week to takeoff for a Kerry run. I've recent experience of full dismantling in this area, bar removing the actual balljoints as I thought they were ok but your "spring" comment now has me wondering if the tight feel I was getting from the ball/socket was an artificially spring loaded and deceptive effect - there is a SPRING somewhere in there?

As an aside, and thinking of dismantling, I am reminded what a world of difference there is between heavy dismantling of seized and rusted 30/40 year-old post-Fiat economy measure Lancia parts from the early 1970s and more modern seized and rusted 20 year-old components on Y10s and Themas from the 1980s and 1990s. Age certainly takes its toll. But then on the other hand, if you go to dismantle S1 Fulvia, S2 Flavia or Flaminia subframe/suspension parts everything comes off like a Fessia dream - bronze nuts and the like. Bronze monkeys must be a lot better behaved than brass ones.


Title: Re: Fulvia/Flavia/2000 Suspension Upper Balljoint Interchangeability
Post by: Angle Grinder on 01 July, 2011, 10:16:58 PM
If you do get brave enough to tackle the job, it would be great to see pics of the process as I need to replace some ball joint boots and all this discussion has really confused me even more than I was before... ???