Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Appia => Topic started by: the.cern on 14 March, 2011, 11:31:30 AM



Title: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: the.cern on 14 March, 2011, 11:31:30 AM
I am biding my time and waiting until for a rare combination,

a) available finance AND b) a reasonable chance of not being lynched by Mrs Tait for buying another Lancia.

In the meantime I am trying to prepare ......... the B20 and Gussie are being restored and my everyday transport is a Transit, practical but only in some respects !!!!

The question is, for general use and, say about 5000mls a year, which should I opt for, a Fulvia Berlina or an Appia Berlina ?  or is there something else I should consider ?  I would prefer a pre computer car that is relatively simple to service and carry out simple repairs.

Budget is up to say 8000, I would prefer to spend much less, say 5000, for a car that is ready for use with a good MOT and is sound. Two restoration projects are too much, I MUST NOT add to them !!!!

Any advice would be gratefully received, but probably cannot be acted on immediately.

              Andy


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: fay66 on 15 March, 2011, 12:22:39 AM
Andy,
 if you can make it to Brooklands for the autoitalia day on the 30th April I'd be happy to let you to have a Drive of my Fulvia 2c Berlina.
At present there is a a very rare Fulvia GT Berlina on ebay, I spoke to the owner the other day and if not sold he maybe bringing it along as well, now that would be a nice buy if it's as nice as the pictures, and my recollections of it 10 years ago.
I suppose Don Cross is as qualified as anyone to answer the question being that he has an Appia Berlina, and a Fulvia Series 2 1300cc Berlina, both of which he uses on a regular basis, and boy doesn't his 1300cc Fulvia go!

Brian
8227 8)



Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: the.cern on 16 March, 2011, 02:25:50 PM
Brian, thank you for the offer a drive in your S2, I may well take you up on that.

I've had a look at the Fulvia GT on ebay and there seems to be no supporting information which is a little disconcerting. At present there are no bids and 6hrs to go. Unfortunately I'm away for a few days and its not appropriate to bid blind, so, if its not sold, I may well contact the owner upon my return, its about 65mls from here so not that difficult.

Thank you for your help and advice, let's see what develops.

Regards,

             Andy


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: lee69 on 16 March, 2011, 10:59:14 PM
Buying my 67 Fulvia 2C would leave you with plenty of change to do the work that's needed! It's got the bigger 1300 engine, but with the original 4 speed column change. It also comes with lots of history, back to it's original import into the UK in 1973. Presently, it's mothballed pending the funds to do the work (sills, door bottoms and a few other bits of bodywork). But if anyone fancied taking it on as a relatively easy project I could be parted  ;)


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: westernlancia on 17 March, 2011, 09:53:48 PM
I am biding my time and waiting until for a rare combination,
a) available finance AND b) a reasonable chance of not being lynched by Mrs Tait for buying another Lancia.
In the meantime I am trying to prepare ......... the B20 and Gussie are being restored and my everyday transport is a Transit, practical but only in some respects !!!!
The question is, for general use and, say about 5000mls a year, which should I opt for, a Fulvia Berlina or an Appia Berlina ?  or is there something else I should consider ?  I would prefer a pre computer car that is relatively simple to service and carry out simple repairs.
Budget is up to say 8000, I would prefer to spend much less, say 5000, for a car that is ready for use with a good MOT and is sound. Two restoration projects are too much, I MUST NOT add to them !!!!
Any advice would be gratefully received, but probably cannot be acted on immediately.
Andy

My advice would be to use an Appia, but get two - a nice one for summer and a scruffy one for winter!

Appias are great to drive, very simple (simplest Lancia made after the war), go like stink, have those wonderful suicide doors, handle really well, have dual-circuit brakes if you get an S3, the parts are relatively easily available and cheap, and they make very practical daily drivers in mechanical terms, but unless you dismantle the entire car, paint the insides of all the box sections, and then bathe the entire vehicle in waxoyl, it will rot out faster than you can say Jack Robinson if you use it in winter.

The salt gets inside all the box sections, coats the chassis of the car, and then attracts moisture and causes corrosion even when it is not actually wet (because of condensation that forms inside the salty box sections when the temperature changes). If you want to keep a nice car nice, salt is absolutely to be avoided like the plague.

The amount of salt that they slather all over our roads in winter is criminal (and even up to now - the roads are still coated with it, because it was spread several weeks ago but there hasn't been enough rain to wash it away). So if you have a nice one, just make sure that you stop using it between October and April, and switch to what the Americans call a 'beater' for the winter months.

Cheers

Alan



Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: westernlancia on 17 March, 2011, 11:25:25 PM
the roads are still coated with [salt], because it was spread several weeks ago but there hasn't been enough rain to wash it away

Meant to say - I don't know how well up you are on how to identify if the roads are salty (most people aren't!), but I spend most of my time fixing rust damage that was caused to Lancias because people didn't know how to recognise it! I am going to do a session on preserving cars at the AGM (I have two, one from 1937 and one from 1954, that are almost all original; the 1937 one is almost all perfect too, and neither has been restored, and I have my work cut out if I want to keep them like that!).

So if you want to keep your classic rust-free it is a useful skill! It is often not obvious, especially at times like now when the salt has been there a while and people tend to think it has gone away. But it doesn't go away by itself - the only thing that makes it go away is LOTS of rain.

Here are some things to look for:

a) random 'wet spots' on the pavement or at the sides of the road when it is otherwise dry (these are bits of grit or salt lying uncrushed by car wheels, and attracting moisture from the air)
b) the road looks wet or damp at night even when it hasn't rained for ages (this is the salt attracting mosture from the dew)
c) the main roads are 'wet' and the side roads are dry (this is because there isn't any salt on the side roads and so they don't attract moisture from the dew!)
d) when you begin a journey your tyres look as if they have just been done with rubber dressing (all shiny) - this is because the salt has attracted moisture and it has made a glossy-looking film all over the rubber. As soon as you drive off and the wheels heat up from the brakes, they begin to look all white, which is the dry salt. But as soon as you stop and the dew falls again it all happens all over again, because the moisture in the atmosphere searches out the salt and reconstitutes it (which is why it is so damaging and corrosive - it does this EVERYWHERE on the car, inside and out, underneath and on top).
e) on a damp road, cars make wet tracks instead of dry ones. Usually, when the road is damp, cars going along it tend to make dry tracks, as the heat of the tyres evaporates the moisture. But when there is salt present the opposite happens. The car's wheels crush the salt granules and spread them, and they form a film where the wheel tracks are, and this film attracts moisture. So you tend to get the odd effect of a quite dry road with two wet strips along it, even when there is no water for the cars to spread.

That's what it is like here (Dartmoor) tonight - I just went to Okehampton Services to get a pint of milk, and the road was like it the whole way there (needless to say, I am in a scruffy old Mk 3 Golf rather than a nice classic).

The other way to identify road salt is one I discovered by mistake, many years ago. I had driven my Fiat Uno, which was then nearly new, to Derby, and when I got there I saw that, although it hadn't rained, the car was all wet and white down both sides (this was the salty film that had got thrown up from the road). As I got out I accidentally caught a 'dirty' (which was what I though it was) bit, and then I caught my lip with my finger - and it tasted of pure salt.

I was appalled (I hadn't realised they were even salting!), and ever since then (1985) I have made sure that I know if the road is salty or not. And if it is, I don't go anywhere near it with a nice car if I can help it. And if I absolutely have to, I wash all the salt off very thoroughly afterwards and then dry the car with the compressor.

Cheers

Alan


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: will on 18 March, 2011, 07:08:47 AM
An Appia or a Fulvia are really no longer suitable for everyday use in the damp salt coated roads of the UK.
Ideal for the summer months,  I have had an Appia since 1970 and have rebuilt more times than I can remember.
Yes I did go to work in the car but how it suffered. These cars are so rare and very expensive to repair. It would
be unwise to drive it on an every day basic so why destroy our heritage. 


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: St Volumex on 18 March, 2011, 07:18:15 AM
Thanks to Alan for that enlightening info on salt.  Now I know what to look for when I come to the UK!

Andy, we have some Appias and a 1.3 S Fulvia coupe 5 spd and we love them, but for very different reasons.

The Appia is made like an old fashioned pocket watch with loads of character, bits of brass, real good quality steel (some of it stainless) and no expense was spared in the thoughtful design and manufacture.  I like to think of it as a mini Aurelia because it's that good!  ;D

But it's a problem driving one in traffic where I've been hooted at by road hogs in Audi Q7's and the like because it doesn't go fast enough by today's standards.

The Fulvia is a delight and still has loads of character but bean counters were beginning to look at the cost of things, and quality declined as a result, especially with the later models which have plastic bits...

I've ridden in Don Cross' and Chris Hopkins' Fulvia Berlinas; they are very practical and really do GO, but up until a month ago my daily driver was a Thema 16v ie Turbo.  This was written off in an accident when a Kia Picanto drove through a red traffic light and hit me.  >:(

Having said that, and if I had a real (sane) choice of a daily driver, I would NOT be driving even a 20 year plus Lancia, because when things break (and they do, remember if it's got four wheels and a skirt...?) it takes too long to get the parts and fix it.  e.g. It once took 3 months for me to get a proper new radiator for my Thema.  ::)  It also put a dent in my Lancia soul when my Thema was written off, and driving in traffic - the risks are high.  Where I live, they are ENORMOUS.

My advice is to buy something simple, cheap, reliable, expendable, and even disposable, and I don't think a Lancia fits that bill.  :)

Kindest regards,
Guy.



Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: westernlancia on 18 March, 2011, 08:08:31 AM
Thanks to Alan for that enlightening info on salt.  Now I know what to look for when I come to the UK!
The Appia is made like an old fashioned pocket watch with loads of character, bits of brass, real good quality steel (some of it stainless) and no expense was spared in the thoughtful design and manufacture.  I like to think of it as a mini Aurelia because it's that good!  ;D
But it's a problem driving one in traffic where I've been hooted at by road hogs in Audi Q7's and the like because it doesn't go fast enough by today's standards.

Thanks Guy

I've got a thing about rust, and I have been working out how it forms and trying to combat it since I was 10 (I was a very sad school kid!). I remember standing outside Wykeham Motors in Winchester in 1973 when I was 15, looking at a stunning dark blue 130 Coupe and feeling sad because I knew someone would buy it and not look after it and ruin it - even at that age I had worked out where and why our 125 was starting to rust, and how to combat it, and I knew that the owner of the 130 would just use and abuse it. But there was nothing I could do to stop it - it was 8000 and my pocket money was 1 a week - and even my dad's Fiat 125S had only cost 1100!!

You're right about the big bullies in their enormous tanks trying to crowd us off the road, but with petrol at 55 a litre surely their day must be over soon? Although even a 'small' car nowadays is big (you could fit two or three old Fiat 500s into a new one, and the new one weighs almost exactly twice as much as the old one).

But for summer motoring and a fair bit of short-distance daily use an Appia is pretty O.K. - I don't mind going to and from the supermarket in one (and they fit beautifully into the spaces because they are so narrow).

And I will be shot for saying this because it is sacrilege, but I find the construction standards on Appias at least as good as Aurelias - they are so beautifully made and watch-like, and they contain aluminium parts in quite a few places where even Aurelias have chromed steel. My Appia Furgoncino (van) was hand built - they turned them out at the rate of about 1 a day, and it shows everywhere. For a van the construction standards are insane!

But it is a bit scary being on the motorway in one, and the scariest thing is the non-collapsible steering column with the steering box right at the front of the car (more than about 6 inches of rearwards deflection in an impact and the column starts to move backwards towards your chest!). In fact I sold an Appia few years back to a bloke, and when I pointed that out to him it scared him so much that he fitted a custom-made collapsible steering column using the centre section of the column from an old Jaguar!

Cheers

Alan



Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: westernlancia on 18 March, 2011, 08:16:13 AM
remember if it's got four wheels and a skirt...?

Isn't it four wheels OR a skirt?? Otherwise that restricts you to a fairly small selection of old F1 cars, or some very odd-looking women...

 ;) :)


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: St Volumex on 18 March, 2011, 08:21:55 AM
Alan, I've always liked women who have their OWN wheels, especially Lancias, which is why I love Carol.

Skirts on a woman or an F1 car? I like the (re)movable variety.  ;D


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: St Volumex on 18 March, 2011, 08:34:06 AM
You're right about the big bullies in their enormous tanks trying to crowd us off the road, but with petrol at 55 a litre surely their day must be over soon?

Unfortunately these pigs will always have the money for petrol no matter what the cost. It's people like you and me that will be using shank's pony...  :'(


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: St Volumex on 18 March, 2011, 08:39:54 AM
And I will be shot for saying this because it is sacrilege, but I find the construction standards on Appias at least as good as Aurelias - they are so beautifully made and watch-like, and they contain aluminium parts in quite a few places where even Aurelias have chromed steel. My Appia Furgoncino (van) was hand built - they turned them out at the rate of about 1 a day, and it shows everywhere. For a van the construction standards are insane!

Alan, it's not sacrilege, it's the truth, and only some poncy toffee nose would want to shoot you because you'd be rocking his self-created imaginary pedestal.  ;D


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: the.cern on 25 March, 2011, 09:50:22 PM
Well gentlemen, what a lot of advice, it all started out so positive and then suddenly there was the rust situation and the suggestions that neither would make a suitable everyday car for the whole year, but I do get the feeling there is support for both vehicles for use in the summer months.

I really am so grateful for the advice because I now have something to mull over. I already own a 'beater' (thank you Alan for introducing me to that term), my late mother's 1992 Citroen ZX, one owner, 34000 miles,  on a SORN for 3yrs, time to get that up and running and then a ......... ????

I am tending towards an Appia, but can't really identify why, we will see.

Thank you again for the advice and comments, time will tell !!

                     Andy


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: DavidLaver on 25 March, 2011, 10:20:27 PM

I tend towards Appias as they remind me so much of Aurelias.  With average speeds, even on motorways, declining year on year the lack of power is less and less of an issue.  With petrol prices as they are there's a strong case to present indoors alongside the lack of depreciation and simplicity.  It would also be an absolute pleasure to work on when it needed it.  Rust is an issue, but if you really went to town with the wax and underseal and kept on top of it?

The other one to ponder is a Flavia Berlina for that bit of extra space for people and luggage as much as for the bigger engine over an Appia or Fulvia.

...and what about a Gamma Coupe?  There's plenty of help out there to keep one going, and bags of character.

David


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: fay66 on 26 March, 2011, 12:41:09 AM
Very nice "C" registered LHD Fulvia 2c Berlina for sale at Richard Thorne's, www.rtcc.co.uk, advertised at 5995, it is also featured in this weeks Classic Car Weekly.
As you may well know I've been trying for sometime to find a build date for "Fay", as she is registered 1/1/1966 on a D plate which meant she must have been built earlier, but when is the question?, so I rang RTCC and asked could they give me the chassis number and first Registration, explaining why I wanted the information.
They very kindly agreed to do so and it was first registered in Italy 29/9/65 with chassis number 818100. 054607, which is 8990 later than "Fays" 818101.045617,  which is considerably earlier, but I'll still keep looking for early 2c's to see if I can get closer, as I'm beginning to think that "Fay" was an early 1965 or even possibly late 1964 build.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: yemjay on 26 March, 2011, 03:30:33 AM
 :-\ I'd also be tempted to buy an Appia, I'd also be tempted to buy an Aprilia; but two weeks ago I acquired my first Lancia, an early S2 coupe Fulvia 1.3s (Mendoza blue & known as Lulu), and I won't be looking over my shoulder at other models for some time as it's proving the perfect daily driver.  We've covered about a thousand miles together in the fortnight, including attending the GNW, and having read Alan's helpful but scary information about salt I'll be rushing straight out after breakfast to give Lulu Mendoza a very thorough shampoo.

This may be irrelevant if you're considering a berlina, which sounds likely; and given my short experience of Fulvia ownership, I offer my observations with apologies for youthful inexperience (not a claim I can easily make in any other capacity).  If, like myself, you require an A-road aristocrat and B-road beauty the Fulvia's surely hard to beat.  Away from the motorway, the coupe is more rewarding than any other car I've owned (Minor 1000, 205 gti, Porsche 944 & 968cs). It sounds as good as it drives, and I particularly enjoy the 1.3 Fulvia's willingness to make the most of its high revving small capacity engine, which together with confident brakes and impeccable handling makes it capable of tackling fast twisty downhill country roads with as much aplomb (if not nearly so quick) as my brother's Elise (but unlike me he can't fit a golf bag, trolley, and haversack in the boot).  I've read that the Fulvia berlina is an even more satisfying drive, but unless you need the extra passenger space why deny yourself the pleasure of the coupe's svelten lines?

Regarding winter driving, my grandmother's neighbour drove an S3 Fulvia coupe for ten years as her only car, she was a careful owner who washed her car before putting it in the garage, and it looked almost as good when she sold it ...  Nevertheless I'll be driving my Polo during the winter months.

I look forward to reading more about your deliberations and wish you luck in your search for an Appia or a Fulvia; or perhaps an Aprilia or a Flavia, but with all due respects to David I'd question the choice of a Gamma as a daily driver (too young to spoil). ;)

Michael.

Well gentlemen, what a lot of advice, it all started out so positive and then suddenly there was the rust situation and the suggestions that neither would make a suitable everyday car for the whole year, but I do get the feeling there is support for both vehicles for use in the summer months.

I really am so grateful for the advice because I now have something to mull over. I already own a 'beater' (thank you Alan for introducing me to that term), my late mother's 1992 Citroen ZX, one owner, 34000 miles,  on a SORN for 3yrs, time to get that up and running and then a ......... ????

I am tending towards an Appia, but can't really identify why, we will see.

Thank you again for the advice and comments, time will tell !!

                     Andy


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: davidwheeler on 03 April, 2011, 09:39:42 AM
I had an Appia Vignale Convertibili which I ran both as domestic and Practice car for a year or more and now I have some Fulvias.  The Appia is a proper Lancia with crisp handling and lovely direct steering.  It also bowled down to Cornwall from Carlisle at a steady 75 without missing a beat. The Fulvia is front wheel drive, holds the road very well but the steering is low geared and frankly sloppy and vague by comparison.  For pure enjoyment, an Appia every time.  I wish I had one but would get too much noise from the distaff side if I added another car to the collection.  Besides, the Aprilia is now going again and I had some great fun yesterday running round the moderns on a roundabout.  Sliding pillars for ever!


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: DavidLaver on 03 April, 2011, 02:39:19 PM
Ah - but not all Fulvias were created equal - what one was it?

As for Appias I looked this out again just now.  About 1.45 and just before 5mins for the Appia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGObixYOTOI

David


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: thecolonel on 03 April, 2011, 03:59:40 PM
I think you just wanted to show the Gamma again (2.20)


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: DavidLaver on 03 April, 2011, 10:08:01 PM

The Gamma does sound delicious.

With the Appia its the surprise at how it goes relative to expectation.  There's also the surprise at the quality under the bonnet.  Opening a back door would always remain an occasion.  Here in the suburbs I think the Appia would provide more day to day delight than the Gamma that would always feel "on the leash" and not really feel happy until clear of the M25.  Where my parents live in the fens the Gamma's legs ride and poise would make a real difference.  Perhaps a Fulvia is that compromise that keeps so many people happy somewhere in between?

Then there's always a 2WD Delta HF to ponder...

David


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: the.cern on 08 May, 2011, 08:56:35 PM
Well gentlemen, the deed is done, I am now the proud (very proud) owner of an Appia S2.

I collected it from the Bristol area yesterday (could it be coincidence that my wife is away in Umbria for a week !!!!!!!) and I have not stopped smiling ....that is about buying the Appia, not the absence of my wife, honestly !!!!!!!!

Thank you everyone for your comments and advice about the comparative virtues of these two models. Having read and digested it all, I am certain that the Appia better fits the bill. I expect most of my mileage will be urban rather than rural and the feel of the Appia, the build quality and the sheer uniqueness of the model mean that all my expectations will be met. Having said that, my 150 mile drive home  yesterday along the M4, M25 and A127  was excellent. Being new to me, I didn't want to push the car and the first 100mls was done at around 60mph, then a lovely session at about 65/70 followed by the tedium of the A127 at 55. Oil pressure and engine temperature were exactly what one would want, even in the inevitable queue for an accident on the M25 and at 65mph, the car responded readily when accelerated to overtake another vehicle. The exhaust note is great, helped I'm sure by the stainless steel system, so I have a car that  looks great, sounds great and the way it goes belies its looks !!!!

Once again, thank you you everyone who has advised (and cautioned) me and hopefully I will see some or all of you at events through the summer.

If you want to see the car, please look for the Appia (the only one) present at the Auto Italia day at Brooklands, to be found on the Forum in 'events' .

Finally, thank you to Ben who so kindly and graciously sold to me one of his collection.

                                     Andy


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: DavidLaver on 09 May, 2011, 04:03:34 PM

Well done!!

Was looking over an SII and the consortium van at VSCC Wiscombe Park yesterday.  I never realised that the back doors had an over centre action to shut themselves from half way closed and to fully open from half way open.  All "one finger light" as well.  An absolutely delightful thing end to end.

David


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: the.cern on 18 May, 2011, 09:54:18 AM
Well, here's a little update ................

I am 'APPy with the APPia but
I am un'APPy with the APPendectomy I had on Monday !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only saving grace of the appendectomy is that it was free !!

Now to the important stuff .........

the pulling brakes are due to the front nearside snatching on a fluid leak, cause yet to be determined, I was making the hub puller when the appendix struck !!

we had a little breakdown last Thursday, it stalled and would not re-start. Casting my brain back to dim and distant times when all cars had carburettors and coils and points and etc I tried to remember how to test things. After a lot of faffing (in the first rain we've seen for about 5 weeks) it seemed that the 'no spark' problem was down to the points which were 'wiped' successfully with an emery board.

Having joined the Appia Consortium literally the previous evening, I phoned Don (the magic man) who said "yes, I've got points", so the subscription form, cheque and the points cheque all went off together. The points arrived on Saturday, together with the appendix pain !!!!!!!!!!!!

Now all I have to do is wait for the swelling and pain to subside before attacking these minor misdemeanours. I'm not allowed to drive for at least 2 weeks so I  hope to be well prepared if not finished with the tasks in time for the return to driving.

I'll  keep you up-dated, hopefully just about the Appia and not about any further bodily failures !!

                            Andy


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: Charles on 18 May, 2011, 04:40:28 PM
Hi Andy, as an Appia owner, I followed the discussion on this thread with interest but did not add any comments as, not having driven Fulvias much, my opinion is biased.  I am sure that you will not regret your decision, however.  I think that my Appia makes me smile more than any of my other Lancias.  It demands to be driven well and this is part of what makes it so rewarding.  They are little gems.  One point about your stalling/starting problem is that I have an electric fuel pump on mine which I use just to start so as not to have to wait for the mechanical pump to do it's stuff, it makes starting instantaneous.  I have noticed, however, that after prolonged stop start driving my engine can suddenly stall unless I switch the electric pump on for a couple of seconds.  Presumably, the mechanical pump is getting a bit tired and at very slow speeds fails to keep the engine properly supplied.


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: the.cern on 25 May, 2011, 08:48:47 PM
Charles, thank you for your comments, I am hopeful my problem is only the points and may be readily sorted now I have the part.

Fortunately my car has come equipped with an electric fuel pump, located I know not where, that is switched via what is normally the heater fan switch. Ben, from whom I bought the car, said he always left it switched on and I have determined to follow his practice, unless someone can justify a change.

I should not have made my flippant comment about 'further bodily failures' as I have a slight complication which will slow me down for a little longer than I had hoped, but I am determined to attack the brakes and points at the earliest opportunity and am really looking forward to getting behind the wheel again. I really do understand your comment about the your Appia making you smile, I have felt like a Cheshire cat every time I've driven mine !!!

Regards,

             Andy


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: fay66 on 26 May, 2011, 12:14:54 AM
Andy,
I have an electric pump fitted adjacent to the fuel tank but I only use it to prime my dellorto's as I still have the mechanical pump, unless the mechanical pump has been removed I see no reason for leaving the electric pump on, can anyone explain if there is any advantage to doing so?
As my 2c is a series one car it doesn't have the fuel return pipes of the later cars, so I think that might also cause a problem if the electric pump is left switched on, although it's comforting to have the belt available in case the braces ever fail. :D

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: davidwheeler on 08 June, 2011, 07:24:43 PM
I have fitted an electric pump to my Aprilia but also a pressure regulating Filter King ("made in Italy") so I do not get flooding.  Don't know if such things are still available, I bought it nearly 40 years ago!


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: fay66 on 08 June, 2011, 08:37:27 PM
I have fitted an electric pump to my Aprilia but also a pressure regulating Filter King ("made in Italy") so I do not get flooding.  Don't know if such things are still available, I bought it nearly 40 years ago!
David,
Filter King is still available from Demon Tweeks.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: GG on 09 June, 2011, 01:27:29 AM
Fuel pressure is one of the bugaboos of these motors - its important to check the mech'l pump pressure on its own. While it should be around 2.5-4 psi (check the specs for differing models), they can vary immensely. We went through 3-4 of these pumps to get one that was right on target for an Aurelia. Fuel pressure has a lot to do with how these car run.

The electric pumps can be run in series with the mech'l, and used for priming (quicker starts for sure) and for high speed runs if necessary. They can be set for approrpriate pressures, or regulated through an in-line regulator. Too much pressure can put load on the diaphragm (if its running through the mech'l pump) and serves no benefit.

The purpose of the return pipe is probably for percolation, when the hot engine boils the gas in the carbs and it flows into the intake throats. On the Aurelia and Flaminia there are little drain pipes for this - I have no idea if they were ever effective. However, I added a return line in a T junction just off the fuel feed by the carb on a B24, and it alleviated this problem entirely, even in its slightly compromised placement. The pressure build up in the carb from the boiling gas has a place to flow.... instead of pushing by the needle valve.

The percolation issue is no trivial item. In Arizona, in the mid-1970's there was a 3C Flaminia that drained its carbs into the motor, and a small backfire led to a fire in the engine bay - luckily the fire extinguisher in the car put it out. Hot starts led to  backfires in a B24 motor a couple of years ago, and the drain back from the carbs put that all to rest. Now the B24 starts up hot as if it were cold, no hassles.

In short, control the fuel pressure, and install a return feed or some way to alleviate the gas overflow. Or don't drive when its hot.


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: davidwheeler on 07 July, 2011, 01:28:48 PM
I've had both, an Appia Vignale Convertibile which I extensively rebuilt and a couple of Fulvias.  The Appia steered like a true Lancia, direct and precise.  The Fulvia steering is low geared and frankly sloppy especially at any degree of lock.  This is the inevitable result of FWD in the 60s and 70s with a steering box rather than a power assisted rack and pinion.  I still lust after an Appia and have recently sold a Fulvia so perhaps I'll be able to slip one past Herself.  Alas, I missed Ben's.
Sliding pillars for ever!


Title: Re: An Appia or a Fulvia as an everyday car, advice please.
Post by: the.cern on 07 July, 2011, 02:22:06 PM
Thank you David for your encouraging words, I've not drivena Fulvia but think it is unlikely that i would get as much enjoyment from one as I do every time I get into the Appia.

I'm just sorting out a couple of little bits, replaced a front wheel cylinder, trying to get the doors to lock, three out of four at the moment compared with one on purchase. The rear rear spring bushes are on the move, should be easy to fix, but most disconcerting to see them  almost out of the spring eye !!!!!

Its just great fun to drive, but each time when I get in I have a sudden reminder of what steering is like without power assistance.

I really can quite understand why you still hanker after an Appia, its even more enjoyable than I thought it would be !!!!

Best wishes,

                Andy